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I've noticed in the last couple of years, perhaps it's just me, perhaps it's society quietly mutating, but there is a bit of a distinction in some specific mentalities of the people on the internet, or on speaking to other people in general.
Previously, I noticed that when males speak/type they use a more specific get to the point, concrete, facts way of communication. And females would be different, with the focus more on the overall setting or mood etc (i'm not female so it's hard for me to specify this in a more loving way). In general this is true, and I understand there are always exceptions. And of course there is nothing wrong with this, males and females are not the same and have pros and cons to each. That's how humans work together to be great.
Because of this, I thought it was usually somewhat easy, more than 50% of the time to be able to tell if a man or a woman wrote something, without having seen the person or even really reading the entire text. Just a snippet of context or a paragraph could be enough. However, lately onto my main point, a previously very clear 'giveaway' or distinction was that males would say something like: "I disagree because I think..." and a woman would say something like "I disagree, I feel that..." In any given context this used to hold true at a majority rate (unless I was simply not noticing it before, kinda like how you tend to notice a specific car with the same color more once you know someone who has it). Maybe I'm entirely wrong about this, but it seems that I see more and more males writing or even saying "I feel like...". And I have heard other people, smarter people, mention things along these lines.
This is interesting to me, and I am curious if there is a sort of consciousness shift of the population in the way we speak, or perhaps evolving our weaker traits in order to be better humans etc. Who knows.
Along the lines of this are other noticeable things that have been studies, such as how mtf transgender brains are wired differently, more female, yet still have male passions and pursuits in a lot of cases that appear more male on paper. And the ftm transpeople don't seem to have a similar type of brain, they almost seem to be trying too hard to appear male and only have manly hobbies etc. But again maybe that is just a stigma on gender roles, where females are more accepted to do anything and males are not. Who knows.
Another thing, is recent studies on gay parent couples. Traditionally, all things being equal, it is best to have a father and mother, as they both provide very specific and well understood roles on childhood development. However, science says that the gay brains are wired more well rounded in that they can fulfill both roles just as well, or almost as well as the dual gender parental unit.
Is this all part of human evolution, are we slowing adapting into a single type of brain wiring that better understands and is more efficient at being the social animal? Is this actually a bad mutation for the human race in the long run?
I'm getting a little off topic, but basically I have just noticed that males seem to sound less male these days, and I'm not saying its bad or good, just curious about it. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that there are too many controls in society now, life is not as simple as it used to be in a day to day life of a male, etc. etc. Perhaps we are adopting a more repressed/oppressed role that most females have felt for so long. Maybe that's just always been bullshit? Who knows.
Or maybe it's just something each man goes through as he gets older and wiser, and becomes less under the influence of the most powerful drug in the world, testosterone.
 
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I feel like this is kind generaliz... D'OH!
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United States15275 Posts
In general this is true, and I understand there are always exceptions. And of course there is nothing wrong with this, males and females are not the same and have pros and cons to each. That's how humans work together to be great.
I find that one of the more interesting questions when it comes to gender differentiation. How does one distinguish between social reflexivity and innate preferences without appealing to the dubious claims of evolutionary psychology?
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On December 18 2014 03:11 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +In general this is true, and I understand there are always exceptions. And of course there is nothing wrong with this, males and females are not the same and have pros and cons to each. That's how humans work together to be great. I find that one of the more interesting questions when it comes to gender differentiation. How does one distinguish between social reflexivity and innate preferences without appealing to the dubious claims of evolutionary psychology?
Well, you could always just appeal to the authority of your religion for the 'appropriate' gender roles and behaviors.
Edit: Also, the most powerful drug is not testosterone. It's heroin.
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I feel like
science says
has become an increasingly popular thing to say because really dumb journalists write it in articles a lot of people read. Same with
recent studies
which has a meaning that by itself is fairly innocuous, but has come to be a huge alarm bell for me that means "I read this in a magazine and don't know much about the details of the actual study."
Your overall thought is interesting enough though. In my opinion we take on these gender specific collocations as a means of a social survival, and as various social movements have taken place, we put less and less pressure on people to act out a certain gender role. In communication especially, on the internet where usually no one's judgement can do you any real harm, and you frequently don't know the genders of the people you interact with at first, you are picking up internet social collocations which are just as useful for your survival and happiness. Then because the internet is such a big part of our lives, in spills over into real life and you hear people saying out loud what they learned from the internet. Sometimes it makes you cringe, sometimes you don't notice it 
+ Show Spoiler +My problem with "science says" is that it sounds weird since we don't usually say that topics in English can say things. It's like saying "strategy says that F5 is a good place for your bishop." So it gives me the impression the person doesn't realise Science is a wide-reaching topic, not a single entity capable of making a specific declaration. Furthermore, it's the type of topic that doesn't itself give us conclusions, just solid data to try to make conclusions from. Same with "science shows." What you mean is a study on X has led me (or the journalist whose article I read) to believe...
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I feel like you just started with a premise long ago, and then simply fed your existing belief via confirmation bias.
On December 18 2014 03:18 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 02:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Along the lines of this are other noticeable things that have been studies, such as how mtf transgender brains are wired differently, more female, yet still have male passions and pursuits in a lot of cases that appear more male on paper. And the ftm transpeople don't seem to have a similar type of brain, they almost seem to be trying too hard to appear male and only have manly hobbies etc. But again maybe that is just a stigma on gender roles, where females are more accepted to do anything and males are not. Who knows. as someone who is trans (mtf) I can assure you that gender roles is not related in any way, at all, ever. People undergo hormone treatment and surgery because their physical body causes them anxiety and stress, not so they can be a housewife or work on cars without being called a dyke. As for mtfs having "male passions", or somehow being more male than cis-females, that is completely made up nonsense. I am not a super femme mtf, partly because I am in the closet to more than 99% of people I know, but look up someone like gigi gorgeous. I dare you to say that she appears "more male on paper" than ciswomen lol.
Gender roles aren't related to desire to transition, but surely they have different impacts on trans vs cis people? It's a nature vs nurture thing.
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On December 18 2014 06:18 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 05:04 Alzadar wrote:
Gender roles aren't related to desire to transition, but surely they have different impacts on trans vs cis people? It's a nature vs nurture thing. I don't really know what you are trying to say.
If you are born with a female brain but everyone treats you as male during your childhood, that's going to have an impact on your development regardless of if/when you transition. Surely you agree with this? So trans women will think differently from cis because their nurturing was different, they were formed by different gender roles.
Not sure if that explains better. I have a completely alternate theory but it's even harder to express.
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On December 18 2014 06:37 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 06:33 Alzadar wrote:
If you are born with a female brain but everyone treats you as male during your childhood, that's going to have an impact on your development regardless of if/when you transition. Surely you agree with this? So trans women will think differently from cis because their nurturing was different, they were formed by different gender roles.
Not sure if that explains better. I have a completely alternate theory but it's even harder to express. There's no universal female experience* that makes one person "more female" than someone else. I have a cousin who is gay, and she is millions of times more masculine than me, despite being a cis woman. There's examples like this everywhere, each person is different, regardless of what toys they played with as a child. *disregarding periods and child birth
I'm not sure that we're in disagreement? People are individuals but boys and girls are treated differently by others.
An extreme example might help. Say in a given society men are expected to be very silent and women are expected to blow raspberries all the time. Would a post-transition MtF woman would feel weird blowing raspberries, and the FtM man would struggle to stay quiet? Or would you say that one inwardly inverts gender roles, even if you are treated as the opposite?
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On December 18 2014 06:33 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 06:18 Onekobold wrote:On December 18 2014 05:04 Alzadar wrote:
Gender roles aren't related to desire to transition, but surely they have different impacts on trans vs cis people? It's a nature vs nurture thing. I don't really know what you are trying to say. If you are born with a female brain but everyone treats you as male during your childhood, that's going to have an impact on your development regardless of if/when you transition. Surely you agree with this? So trans women will think differently from cis because their nurturing was different, they were formed by different gender roles. Not sure if that explains better. I have a completely alternate theory but it's even harder to express.
I've always thought so because it explains why there are more good mtf than cis-female sc2 players, which would otherwise be absurd.
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On December 18 2014 02:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I've noticed in the last couple of years, perhaps it's just me, perhaps it's society quietly mutating, but there is a bit of a distinction in some specific mentalities of the people on the internet, or on speaking to other people in general.
Previously, I noticed that when males speak/type they use a more specific get to the point, concrete, facts way of communication. And females would be different, with the focus more on the overall setting or mood etc (i'm not female so it's hard for me to specify this in a more loving way). In general this is true, and I understand there are always exceptions. And of course there is nothing wrong with this, males and females are not the same and have pros and cons to each. That's how humans work together to be great.
Because of this, I thought it was usually somewhat easy, more than 50% of the time to be able to tell if a man or a woman wrote something, without having seen the person or even really reading the entire text. Just a snippet of context or a paragraph could be enough. However, lately onto my main point, a previously very clear 'giveaway' or distinction was that males would say something like: "I disagree because I think..." and a woman would say something like "I disagree, I feel that..." In any given context this used to hold true at a majority rate (unless I was simply not noticing it before, kinda like how you tend to notice a specific car with the same color more once you know someone who has it). Maybe I'm entirely wrong about this, but it seems that I see more and more males writing or even saying "I feel like...". And I have heard other people, smarter people, mention things along these lines.
This is interesting to me, and I am curious if there is a sort of consciousness shift of the population in the way we speak, or perhaps evolving our weaker traits in order to be better humans etc. Who knows.
Along the lines of this are other noticeable things that have been studies, such as how mtf transgender brains are wired differently, more female, yet still have male passions and pursuits in a lot of cases that appear more male on paper. And the ftm transpeople don't seem to have a similar type of brain, they almost seem to be trying too hard to appear male and only have manly hobbies etc. But again maybe that is just a stigma on gender roles, where females are more accepted to do anything and males are not. Who knows.
Another thing, is recent studies on gay parent couples. Traditionally, all things being equal, it is best to have a father and mother, as they both provide very specific and well understood roles on childhood development. However, science says that the gay brains are wired more well rounded in that they can fulfill both roles just as well, or almost as well as the dual gender parental unit.
Is this all part of human evolution, are we slowing adapting into a single type of brain wiring that better understands and is more efficient at being the social animal? Is this actually a bad mutation for the human race in the long run?
I'm getting a little off topic, but basically I have just noticed that males seem to sound less male these days, and I'm not saying its bad or good, just curious about it. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that there are too many controls in society now, life is not as simple as it used to be in a day to day life of a male, etc. etc. Perhaps we are adopting a more repressed/oppressed role that most females have felt for so long. Maybe that's just always been bullshit? Who knows.
Or maybe it's just something each man goes through as he gets older and wiser, and becomes less under the influence of the most powerful drug in the world, testosterone.
What exactly are you noticing? That men and women tend to act differently? Good job bro.
Or men are acting "less male"? How can you act less male if you are male? You mean like less like the norm stereotype you have to expect that when you with mass spread of information you can't just go on talking trash and shit because you end up getting a lawsuit LOL
I mean if you think of manly stereotypes like fighting, killing, raping, harassing women, lot of that shit is illegal LOL so its gonna drop
We'll adapt to whatever increases our chances at reproduction as we always have.
At least as a trendline.
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On December 18 2014 07:07 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
I've always thought so because it explains why there are more good mtf than cis-female sc2 players, which would otherwise be absurd. I think the reason that there aren't that many women that play video games is because we treat them like shit lol
Right, and that's sort of what I'm saying. Here blowing raspberries is playing video games.
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On December 18 2014 07:22 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:11 Alzadar wrote:
Right, and that's sort of what I'm saying. Here blowing raspberries is playing video games. ok but I'm a girl and I play video games. I used to play online games a lot before I started my transition and the worst things anyone said to me was like "nice accent, eh nerd" because I was super canadian and said eh all the time. Compare that to women being called attention whores, sluts, etc and I can totally see why there aren't many. I don't think that women avoid video games because its a "guy thing", I think they stay away because people treat them like shit. And maybe that's because some guys subscribe to the idea that video games are for men only, but I don't see many women staying away because games are "too manly". Games are fun, everyone loves games regardless of their sexy bits.
I'm pretty sure we're in agreement, just that you're making a distinction between gender roles and how people treat other genders, and I'm lumping them both in one container.
To refine my example, if boys were harassed for blowing raspberries, then trans men would blow more raspberries than cis men.
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On December 18 2014 07:09 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 02:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I've noticed in the last couple of years, perhaps it's just me, perhaps it's society quietly mutating, but there is a bit of a distinction in some specific mentalities of the people on the internet, or on speaking to other people in general.
Previously, I noticed that when males speak/type they use a more specific get to the point, concrete, facts way of communication. And females would be different, with the focus more on the overall setting or mood etc (i'm not female so it's hard for me to specify this in a more loving way). In general this is true, and I understand there are always exceptions. And of course there is nothing wrong with this, males and females are not the same and have pros and cons to each. That's how humans work together to be great.
Because of this, I thought it was usually somewhat easy, more than 50% of the time to be able to tell if a man or a woman wrote something, without having seen the person or even really reading the entire text. Just a snippet of context or a paragraph could be enough. However, lately onto my main point, a previously very clear 'giveaway' or distinction was that males would say something like: "I disagree because I think..." and a woman would say something like "I disagree, I feel that..." In any given context this used to hold true at a majority rate (unless I was simply not noticing it before, kinda like how you tend to notice a specific car with the same color more once you know someone who has it). Maybe I'm entirely wrong about this, but it seems that I see more and more males writing or even saying "I feel like...". And I have heard other people, smarter people, mention things along these lines.
This is interesting to me, and I am curious if there is a sort of consciousness shift of the population in the way we speak, or perhaps evolving our weaker traits in order to be better humans etc. Who knows.
Along the lines of this are other noticeable things that have been studies, such as how mtf transgender brains are wired differently, more female, yet still have male passions and pursuits in a lot of cases that appear more male on paper. And the ftm transpeople don't seem to have a similar type of brain, they almost seem to be trying too hard to appear male and only have manly hobbies etc. But again maybe that is just a stigma on gender roles, where females are more accepted to do anything and males are not. Who knows.
Another thing, is recent studies on gay parent couples. Traditionally, all things being equal, it is best to have a father and mother, as they both provide very specific and well understood roles on childhood development. However, science says that the gay brains are wired more well rounded in that they can fulfill both roles just as well, or almost as well as the dual gender parental unit.
Is this all part of human evolution, are we slowing adapting into a single type of brain wiring that better understands and is more efficient at being the social animal? Is this actually a bad mutation for the human race in the long run?
I'm getting a little off topic, but basically I have just noticed that males seem to sound less male these days, and I'm not saying its bad or good, just curious about it. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that there are too many controls in society now, life is not as simple as it used to be in a day to day life of a male, etc. etc. Perhaps we are adopting a more repressed/oppressed role that most females have felt for so long. Maybe that's just always been bullshit? Who knows.
Or maybe it's just something each man goes through as he gets older and wiser, and becomes less under the influence of the most powerful drug in the world, testosterone.
What exactly are you noticing? That men and women tend to act differently? Good job bro. Or men are acting "less male"? How can you act less male if you are male? You mean like less like the norm stereotype you have to expect that when you with mass spread of information you can't just go on talking trash and shit because you end up getting a lawsuit LOL I mean if you think of manly stereotypes like fighting, killing, raping, harassing women, lot of that shit is illegal LOL so its gonna drop We'll adapt to whatever increases our chances at reproduction as we always have.
Maybe he's saying that he's been producing less sperm than normal, and is wondering if it is due to his body not producing enough testosterone. Or perhaps he's growing boobs because his body is also producing way too much estrogen. Have you thought of that? Or do you just rush to ridicule?
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On December 18 2014 07:36 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:26 Alzadar wrote:
I'm pretty sure we're in agreement, just that you're making a distinction between gender roles and how people treat other genders, and I'm lumping them both in one container.
To refine my example, if boys were harassed for blowing raspberries, then trans men would blow more raspberries than cis men. well I'm not in agreement with the idea that trans women are more masculine than cis women or the reverse being true for trans men, which is what I got from your posts. If I misunderstood that then I guess we're good to go!
Well that's the thing, gaming obviously isn't a sexual trait, but it's something men do somewhat more than women. Does that make it masculine?
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On December 18 2014 07:36 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:26 Alzadar wrote:
I'm pretty sure we're in agreement, just that you're making a distinction between gender roles and how people treat other genders, and I'm lumping them both in one container.
To refine my example, if boys were harassed for blowing raspberries, then trans men would blow more raspberries than cis men. well I'm not in agreement with the idea that trans women are more masculine than cis women or the reverse being true for trans men, which is what I got from your posts. If I misunderstood that then I guess we're good to go!
This is a weird thing though. It seems like theres a common perception that it is all social conditioning and stuff, and I know the SJW's backlash a lot against anyone who says otherwise because of all widespread unacceptance of trans people. However we have to realize that you can make any number of theories of things but unless its backed up by science its all speculation. So if we have a trans woman she will likely retain some of the effects of testosterone from puberty (if it happened later) on the brain.
We don't know much for certain so I can't think you can just say "you disagree" just to make trans people feel more accepted. We should instead accept so called "masculine" traits or "feminine" traits in people no matter who they are.
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Or maybe the use of feel instead of think, is simply a more PC way of voicing an opinion without sounding so aggressive or pissing people off. ie; a tool of manipulation that women have been (unknowingly) been using all along?
I've noticed a lot of companies are doing this as well: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17222794
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On December 18 2014 08:04 Onekobold wrote:
I haven't said anything in this thread because I'm a sjw, I'm saying it because I'm trans and it's my opinion on things. Chances are I'm also more educated on transgenderism too, considering that I actually have gender dysphoria and am medically transitioning.
I can't accurately judge the effect being male has had on my brain because its the only brain i've ever had. Why you should know how your brain differs from a cis person?
On December 18 2014 08:22 MarlieChurphy wrote:Or maybe the use of feel instead of think, is simply a more PC way of voicing an opinion without sounding so aggressive or pissing people off. ie; a tool of manipulation that women have been (unknowingly) been using all along? I've noticed a lot of companies are doing this as well: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17222794
Because saying "I think X" means you are voicing a direct concrete opinion and if you say "I feel X" it kinda like a vague statement that puts you in a spectrum at leasts that's how I see it.
I wouldn't say you "unknowingly" do something to be "manipulative" its trying to communicate effectively. If people react too strongly on something you thought was a minor issue or something you were willing to be flexible on perhaps the problem isn't people overreacting but the problem is how you communicated it poorly.
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Right, so why is it that people are being more vague these days? Why were women doing that in the first place? Is there some sort of fear of backlash constantly? Why can't people just say X and be ok with being wrong or right and then possibly change that X to Y later on and word it the same way?
These sorts of social controls feel bad to me, intuitively.
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On December 18 2014 08:22 MarlieChurphy wrote:Or maybe the use of feel instead of think, is simply a more PC way of voicing an opinion without sounding so aggressive or pissing people off. ie; a tool of manipulation that women have been (unknowingly) been using all along? I've noticed a lot of companies are doing this as well: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17222794
Now you're projecting very sinister language onto something that isn't sinister at all. Saying "I feel" is a "tool of manipulation"? Preposterous.
Prefixing statements with "I feel / think" is just a way of showing that there's some leeway in your mindset, that you're open to other views.
This reminds me of a previous blog post of mine: Superlative use and indirect statements.
On December 18 2014 07:52 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:39 Alzadar wrote:
Well that's the thing, gaming obviously isn't a sexual trait, but it's something men do somewhat more than women. Does that make it masculine? it is in the dna of men to enjoy video games, an evolutionary trait from thousands of years of owning noobs
I can't tell if you think that's what I'm saying, or if you are agreeing with me by jokingly saying the inverse.
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On December 18 2014 08:41 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Right, so why is it that people are being more vague these days? Why were women doing that in the first place? Is there some sort of fear of backlash constantly? Why can't people just say X and be ok with being wrong or right and then possibly change that X to Y later on and word it the same way?
These sorts of social controls feel bad to me, intuitively.
Because if people think you're a dickbag it negatively affects your social status.
Men get away with it more I would say because historically your respect comes from your abilities and valuee and skills. If you are the local michael jordan of the village dudes will like you even if you are a bit of a dick.
Also I could suggest that in general men probably care less about peoples feelings and so they will care less if somebody is being a douchebag if they are fun to be around.
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On December 18 2014 07:07 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
I've always thought so because it explains why there are more good mtf than cis-female sc2 players, which would otherwise be absurd. I think the reason that there aren't that many women that play video games is because we treat them like shit lol
That's certainly not all of it. Ask a 10 year old girl if she wants to play a competitive war game, she won't because it doesn't fit the gender roles she's been taught.
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On December 18 2014 08:42 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:22 MarlieChurphy wrote:Or maybe the use of feel instead of think, is simply a more PC way of voicing an opinion without sounding so aggressive or pissing people off. ie; a tool of manipulation that women have been (unknowingly) been using all along? I've noticed a lot of companies are doing this as well: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17222794 Now you're projecting very sinister language onto something that isn't sinister at all. Saying "I feel" is a "tool of manipulation"? Preposterous. Prefixing statements with "I feel / think" is just a way of showing that there's some leeway in your mindset, that you're open to other views. This reminds me of a previous blog post of mine: Superlative use and indirect statements.
Your blog actually doesn't back up your point here though, your blog simply says you use words/phrases in place of others for tact so as not to hurt people's feelings or derail the goal of the conversation. Which is kind of what I was getting at. Maybe that is all it is, people seem to understand that concept more these days and have more tact?
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On December 18 2014 08:45 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:07 Onekobold wrote:On December 18 2014 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
I've always thought so because it explains why there are more good mtf than cis-female sc2 players, which would otherwise be absurd. I think the reason that there aren't that many women that play video games is because we treat them like shit lol That's certainly not all of it. Ask a 10 year old girl if she wants to play a competitive war game, she won't because it doesn't fit the gender roles she's been taught.
Do you talk with 10 year old girls much? They might surprise you.
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On December 18 2014 08:45 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:07 Onekobold wrote:On December 18 2014 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
I've always thought so because it explains why there are more good mtf than cis-female sc2 players, which would otherwise be absurd. I think the reason that there aren't that many women that play video games is because we treat them like shit lol That's certainly not all of it. Ask a 10 year old girl if she wants to play a competitive war game, she won't because it doesn't fit the gender roles she's been taught.
Rephrase this: "Ask a 10 year old girl if she wants to play a competitive war game, she won't because girls aren't as interested in competitive war games in general."
or :"Ask a 10 year old girl if she wants to play a competitive war game, she says yes because she wants to play it"
You can't prove one way or the other, but we have statistics but it's unfair to use them too much yet when we're not that far ahead of women being able to vote and have regular jobs. (and not that far ahead of 95% of professions being a farmer//farmer's wife)
As an aside I would like to suggest that not EVERYONE is going to want their girls to be a princess and their a sports star, and assuming everyone acts like they are just because they are taught seems far-fetched. (indeed doesn't the presence of transgender people suggest that in general gender is something that applies to nearly everyone and not social construct?)
Though it once you know your official sex you're likely to want to act like people of your gender that you observe, so you have the thing of kids of single moms with the dad off the scene acting like the gangsters they see on the streets although I'm not sure how much science has been done on that sort of thing.
Imitation maybe more than tutelage?
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On December 18 2014 08:45 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:42 Alzadar wrote:On December 18 2014 08:22 MarlieChurphy wrote:Or maybe the use of feel instead of think, is simply a more PC way of voicing an opinion without sounding so aggressive or pissing people off. ie; a tool of manipulation that women have been (unknowingly) been using all along? I've noticed a lot of companies are doing this as well: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/17222794 Now you're projecting very sinister language onto something that isn't sinister at all. Saying "I feel" is a "tool of manipulation"? Preposterous. Prefixing statements with "I feel / think" is just a way of showing that there's some leeway in your mindset, that you're open to other views. This reminds me of a previous blog post of mine: Superlative use and indirect statements. Your blog actually doesn't back up your point here though, your blog simply says you use words/phrases in place of others for tact so as not to hurt people's feelings or derail the goal of the conversation. Which is kind of what I was getting at. Maybe that is all it is, people seem to understand that concept more these days and have more tact?
My point is that it isn't sinister and I don't think it's a gender thing either. It might be true that people are being more tactful, I'm challenging your view that this is a gender-based phenomenon.
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On December 18 2014 08:45 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:07 Onekobold wrote:On December 18 2014 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
I've always thought so because it explains why there are more good mtf than cis-female sc2 players, which would otherwise be absurd. I think the reason that there aren't that many women that play video games is because we treat them like shit lol That's certainly not all of it. Ask a 10 year old girl if she wants to play a competitive war game, she won't because it doesn't fit the gender roles she's been taught.
This is offtopic of this blog, but gender roles aren't really taught. At least not in this sense. To most girls, they simply aren't attracted to this kind of play. And of course there are exceptions, in fact my 8 year old nephew, I tried to show him starcraft even since the age of 4, and he wasn't really that interested in it. He does like street fighter, kart racing games, mario games, puzzle games, etc. It's just not something that he's attracted to. I also have a niece who is a few years younger who loves games like angry birds, and other casual gaming stuff, but she doesn't have a system at her house, nor do I think she would want one as bad as my nephew does. (he has DS, N64, Wii, and WiiU) She just plays phone games.
PS- Highly recommend this docu series, it delves into a lot of this stuff. There is a bit in there on the study where they have babies go play in a room with various toys, how parents interact with children differently, etc http://www.reddit.com/r/Loveline/comments/2c4d7t/interesting_docu_series_that_led_to_cutting/
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On December 18 2014 08:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:45 Grumbels wrote:On December 18 2014 07:07 Onekobold wrote:On December 18 2014 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
I've always thought so because it explains why there are more good mtf than cis-female sc2 players, which would otherwise be absurd. I think the reason that there aren't that many women that play video games is because we treat them like shit lol That's certainly not all of it. Ask a 10 year old girl if she wants to play a competitive war game, she won't because it doesn't fit the gender roles she's been taught. This is offtopic of this blog, but gender roles aren't really taught.
???
Are you saying this then:
On December 18 2014 07:52 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:39 Alzadar wrote:
Well that's the thing, gaming obviously isn't a sexual trait, but it's something men do somewhat more than women. Does that make it masculine? it is in the dna of men to enjoy video games, an evolutionary trait from thousands of years of owning noobs
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Watched Part 1 (or most of it). Very relevant bit at 17:00 for others.
I do believe there are innate differences in the brains of men and women. But video games are not so fundamental as that.
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On December 18 2014 08:52 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:On December 18 2014 08:45 Grumbels wrote:On December 18 2014 07:07 Onekobold wrote:On December 18 2014 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
I've always thought so because it explains why there are more good mtf than cis-female sc2 players, which would otherwise be absurd. I think the reason that there aren't that many women that play video games is because we treat them like shit lol That's certainly not all of it. Ask a 10 year old girl if she wants to play a competitive war game, she won't because it doesn't fit the gender roles she's been taught. This is offtopic of this blog, but gender roles aren't really taught. ??? Are you saying this then: Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:52 Onekobold wrote:On December 18 2014 07:39 Alzadar wrote:
Well that's the thing, gaming obviously isn't a sexual trait, but it's something men do somewhat more than women. Does that make it masculine? it is in the dna of men to enjoy video games, an evolutionary trait from thousands of years of owning noobs
I mean if you extend video games as a stimulation of refining a skill and competing then that's a passable hypothesis if having said skills was important to evolutionary success. (hunting and such i suppose)
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Onekobold, my point overall about trans women and females is that there is an obvious difference between them and then even more so with transmen.
For example, girl gamers like ninazerg suggested, are either A) quietly gaming and trying to keep their gender a secret so boys don't bother them, or B) being attention whores. And for the most part, there aren't any really competitive/good girl gamers. And I don't think this has to do with what society says or whatever gender bias spin people like to throw on it, if she is passionate about it and can win, she will play and will win. Fuck what everyone else says if she's as good as Flash and can make thousands of dollars etc. Everyone else is irrelevant at that point.
As far as transwomen, you would think the same would apply but it's not exactly. Seemingly, the transwomen are more willing to out themselves, maybe that has something to do with the dual role metaphor there? And then on top of that, there seems to be even more of them as players and that gender doesn't even apply anymore, because they are actually good players. They have proved themselves regardless of what gender they are or what gender they subscribe too. It's irrelevant at that point.
Now as for transmen, they are never even around. I've tried to google around and I think I found 1 forum where ftm play games, and they all seem to be pretty casual and have various gaming tastes, which you could expect in any group. However, they don't look for attention, nor do they stand out in any way, nor do they really hide their gender afaik. There are just less of them as a whole.
This to me seems to be that there is something inherently in the male brain wiring that makes them better and more attracted in general at gaming regardless which gender they identified with.
Either way, there seems to be a higher percentage of transwomen gamers making themselves known directly/indirectly than female or transmen gamers. And that is something that is curious because clearly there is something different going on in their brains.
This wasn't really the point of my topic though, my point is just that the way people speak now seems more androgynous or more feminine these days, and was curious if anyone noticed or had any ideas of their own as to why that was.
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I'm with Grumbels on this one. I can tell the difference most of the time also. Some girls on WoW were surprised when I would ask and be right.
edit: Great articles Grumbels, I thoroughly enjoyed it. thanks for sharing!
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On December 18 2014 08:45 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 07:07 Onekobold wrote:On December 18 2014 07:02 Grumbels wrote:
I've always thought so because it explains why there are more good mtf than cis-female sc2 players, which would otherwise be absurd. I think the reason that there aren't that many women that play video games is because we treat them like shit lol That's certainly not all of it. Ask a 10 year old girl if she wants to play a competitive war game, she won't because it doesn't fit the gender roles she's been taught.
Incidentally, that's when I started becoming interested in strategy/war games.
On December 18 2014 10:36 MarlieChurphy wrote:
For example, girl gamers like ninazerg suggested, are either A) quietly gaming and trying to keep their gender a secret so boys don't bother them, or B) being attention whores. And for the most part, there aren't any really competitive/good girl gamers.
I don't know if I said that.
+ Show Spoiler +If I did ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pQXL81K.png)
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
i thought nina was a cyborg
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On December 18 2014 12:51 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 10:36 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Onekobold, my point overall about trans women and females is that there is an obvious difference between them and then even more so with transmen. based on your extensive google search, nice. You must have put a fedora on while writing that post. It's pretty clear nothing I say is going to stick, but you could do with keeping your opinions on trans issues to yourself, unless you are deliberately trying to offend people.
So let me ask you personally then, how many girl gamers do you know/know of? How many ftm trans? How many mtf trans?
I'd wager if you asked most gamers, they would know more ftm or girl, and then mtf. Obviously there is something to this.
btw, you haven't really argued anything I said, you just called me names etc. Great rebuttals.
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lol @ women are emotional creatures
wtf ppl
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On December 18 2014 15:14 MarlieChurphy wrote:
how many girl gamers do you know/know of?
Kaitlyn, MsSpyte, Livibee, QueenE, Behkuh, Aphrodite, Eve, Tossgirl, Marie, Munkie, Reclusive, Zombiegrub, Livinpink, Hazelynut, Maddelisk, Smix, xVixen, Catreina, Megumixbear, Aurora, KellyMILKIES, Flo, DaSakura, Miishelle, Luway, Geosc, TaraBabcock, Kaceytron, Tesla, Raspberry, ailuj, Karen, Rogue, Navi, Yui, donut, NKaeris, AprilDai, Aureylian, ihascupquake, HeyAsh, Dodger, AllyJacqui, Donnabellez,Games1219, Jezdamayel, Kwingsletsplays, LaurenzSide, Lucahjin, MasaeAnela, MihariofMabinogi, Nuttylamb ,TailsProwerYoshiGirl, Two Bitches Play Stupid Games, Vynnad, Zerggirl-, Hitomi1, Ricochet, jso, potter, ali, Ms.X, Liefje, Missy, Hafu, Vanessa, Sarah Lou, Kasumi Chan, Mystik, XBLA Tart, Alymew, Trito, zAAz, Kayane, missharvey, iRENE, lilsan, Sonia, janeosaur, lidy, cazzidy, mitsu, catpower, Eileen, Miss, Phoenix, Perpetiel, Snuggles, Colagirl, Rayuki, Navy, colalin, soyhi, JongMi, Miss V, Tilea, Cla, Ritta, and your mom.
Edit: Not sure if Kiett, Shirousagi, or Lilsusie play any games.
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some of the ids in that list are very good
Two Bitches Play Stupid Games
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On December 18 2014 10:36 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Onekobold, my point overall about trans women and females is that there is an obvious difference between them and then even more so with transmen.
For example, girl gamers like ninazerg suggested, are either A) quietly gaming and trying to keep their gender a secret so boys don't bother them, or B) being attention whores.
I don't know where you're getting this false dichotomy from. I don't try overtly to reveal or hide my gender when I play, (but then mine is the norm) but women in a gaming world of massively socially awkward horny men are always going to get lots of attention like it or not, hardly fair to call them all attention whores.
On December 18 2014 10:36 MarlieChurphy wrote:
This to me seems to be that there is something inherently in the male brain wiring that makes them better and more attracted in general at gaming regardless which gender they identified with.
Don't know if you need to say "better", passion time and energy is sufficient to get good at something (provided you're not really deluded and have a shitty attitude to everything). If you are trying to claim that the male brain specifically is causing dudes everywhere to play vidya games all day and some of them eventually get good that would be enough to explain your results.
All the best go players are in asia. Should we then conclude that the asian brain is wired to be better and more attracted to that board game? You have to take into account exposure and opportunity as well. Or is it the power of rice?
You need to be very wary with these 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' conclusions because you are likely to give yourself a conclusion based on your bias and back it up with what you can.
In general everything you're saying about trans people seems just basically made up based on whatever you decided to think up one day and you stuck with it. You have really vague data and a worthless sample size so I don't think you can really say anything that holds any weight.
On December 18 2014 10:36 MarlieChurphy wrote:
This wasn't really the point of my topic though, my point is just that the way people speak now seems more androgynous or more feminine these days, and was curious if anyone noticed or had any ideas of their own as to why that was.
Based on your definition of what speaking in a "masculine way" is? As I mentioned, you can't go around tweeting the sort of things you spammed in Clan X17. Flinging expletives and wildly aggressive insults like you might with your friends in a chatroom can't be done on public forums, facebook, or twitter, where anyone from your grandma to the president of uganda can read them. There's no way to interpret that you're just talking shit on the internet or you're one of the worst human beings that hasn't technically committed a crime. You don't want a concerned phonecall from your grandmother checking to make sure you can afford enough condoms to safely bang Tim's mom every night.
On December 18 2014 19:17 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 15:14 MarlieChurphy wrote:
how many girl gamers do you know/know of? Kaitlyn, MsSpyte, Livibee, QueenE, Behkuh, Aphrodite, Eve, Tossgirl, Marie, Munkie, Reclusive, Zombiegrub, Livinpink, Hazelynut, Maddelisk, Smix, xVixen, Catreina, Megumixbear, Aurora, KellyMILKIES, Flo, DaSakura, Miishelle, Luway, Geosc, TaraBabcock, Kaceytron, Tesla, Raspberry, ailuj, Karen, Rogue, Navi, Yui, donut, NKaeris, AprilDai, Aureylian, ihascupquake, HeyAsh, Dodger, AllyJacqui, Donnabellez,Games1219, Jezdamayel, Kwingsletsplays, LaurenzSide, Lucahjin, MasaeAnela, MihariofMabinogi, Nuttylamb ,TailsProwerYoshiGirl, Two Bitches Play Stupid Games, Vynnad, Zerggirl-, Hitomi1, Ricochet, jso, potter, ali, Ms.X, Liefje, Missy, Hafu, Vanessa, Sarah Lou, Kasumi Chan, Mystik, XBLA Tart, Alymew, Trito, zAAz, Kayane, missharvey, iRENE, lilsan, Sonia, janeosaur, lidy, cazzidy, mitsu, catpower, Eileen, Miss, Phoenix, Perpetiel, Snuggles, Colagirl, Rayuki, Navy, colalin, soyhi, JongMi, Miss V, Tilea, Cla, Ritta, and your mom. Edit: Not sure if Kiett, Shirousagi, or Lilsusie play any games.
I know kiett was playing some lol but maybe that makes her dead to you now.
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On December 18 2014 17:02 Onekobold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 15:14 MarlieChurphy wrote:
btw, you haven't really argued anything I said, you just called me names etc. Great rebuttals. mate you just said that I'm not a woman, now you try and play the victim? please lmao Your blog was baselessly sexist and every time you've said something about your extensive knowledge transgender issues you've just said something offensive. there's a lot of smart people on this website who know a lot about things I have no idea about, but I can safely say that I know more than most about transgenderism than you do. Basically all you've said so far is that trans women are just men because scarlett and tilea are good at sc2. I've lived like this my whole life like this and you did a google search. Seriously, come on. I can't make anyone understand what it's like or how they are wrong, and no one here appears to give a shit and would rather say retarded shit like "mtf have male brains" or something equally asinine so I'm just going to leave and stop trolling myself by reading this crap.
First you derail my topic to make it about you and trans issues.
Then you call me names.
Then you say I'm playing a victim (which I am not, wtf?) and derailing the topic further without even answering any of my questions or enlightening me. And then you call me more names. Is this how you get through life?
In your 'rebuttal' here in this post, here is how it reads:
Making up stuff I didn't say, making up stuff I said.
Calling me names, making up things I claimed, calling me offensive.
Saying you know more than I (without showing anything) even though, again, I never claimed to know more than you or anyone.
Reiterating stuff that you think I said or meant based on two people no one even mentioned.
Again, making up stuff; saying I just did a google search when I never said that.
A final sentence about something completely off topic from the off topic about yourself. This sounds like the definition of trolling.
If it makes you feel any better, I will say you sound exactly like a girl on facebook. That's because so far you have done nothing but bitch and have no argument and are trying to make the topic about you. Like seriously what the fuck?
You can't go around getting all butthurt about random shit, don't even reply if you aren't going to debate or bring anything useful to the conversation. You make it seem as if transpeople/yourself are so victimized. Well guess what, if you go around acting this way, especially to open minded people, you're only going to make things worse for yourself and people like you. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
I probably shouldn't even be engaging in this bullshit, but if you aren't a troll, then I am actually trying to help you if you can see that. Help me help you help yourself. You come off as angry and attacked for no reason. If something I said was offensive to you, you could easily ignore that bit and try and help me understand why that is wrong or offensive and educate me so as to prevent that in the future, right?
Anyway my goal with the most recent questions in my last post, (which ninazerg made my point about) is that obviously everyone can name some girl gamers, and even transwomen gamers, but who can name and transmen gamers? There is obviously something to that. Either biologically, or in the way they socialize or some other meta thing in their (lack of?) gaming habits.
Myself personally, have known and heard of quite a few girl gamers, and quite a few transwomen gamers in a number of different genres. And for the most part, the transwomen gamers seem to be better than the female gamers. This is obviously anecdotal, but I would wager that most people that have interacted with them have come to similar conclusions. It's not like I just made this up ahead of time, and then had a confirmation bias. I don't even care if it's true or not, it's just something I've noticed.
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I mean, you talk about how "mtf transgender brains are wired differently" in the first post, it's not a derailment for her to respond to that.
You make it seem as if transpeople/yourself are so victimized.
Is this even remotely in question? Trans people are the most discriminated against in the world, by a country mile.
I think neither of you is really understanding what the other is saying.
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How can facts be offensive? I mean I guess they can, but you can't be mad at me for them. Blame science, or god, or whatever.
http://mindhacks.com/2009/04/05/imaging-the-transgendered-brain/
My point with that line, is that your best bet to not be a victim, is to not act like one. Which she is doing.
Anyone have an older sibling? Remember when they would do something to bug you only because it would bug you and get a rise out of you?
And it depends on the culture or country for that. Even in some really anti gay places in the middle east etc, transwomen are accepted.
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offensive
1: "causing someone to feel resentful, upset, or annoyed."
facts can be very offensive i suppose, lots of bad shit happening in the world yo
normally people use the word offensive as a weapon against someone elses views though, its effective because it ironically tends to make people defensive.
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On December 19 2014 02:22 MarlieChurphy wrote:How can facts be offensive? I mean I guess they can, but you can't be mad at me for them. Blame science, or god, or whatever. http://mindhacks.com/2009/04/05/imaging-the-transgendered-brain/My point with that line, is that your best bet to not be a victim, is to not act like one. Which she is doing. Anyone have an older sibling? Remember when they would do something to bug you only because it would bug you and get a rise out of you? And it depends on the culture or country for that. Even in some really anti gay places in the middle east etc, transwomen are accepted.
Facts can obviously be offensive ("you're fat"), but in this context stating facts is fine. However some of your viewpoints are not facts, but just conclusions you've arrived at or hypotheses you're putting forward as fact.
I shouldn't have said "the most".
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EPT
