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On November 25 2014 03:26 Kuroeeah wrote:
I'm not for or against bringing back GD but I think the current discussion although having derailed from the original topic is something I can admit to missing in the old GD thread. Like sn0 said, it's a casual discussion that's fun to have but doesn't necessarily need to exist as a thread titled "playing with the pros". That said, I think it's possible for the Tavern to fit itself in a good middle ground between having a casual discussion and not becoming overbearingly shitty like the old GD thread eventually became.
I'm pretty happy about the responses this thread received overall and I hope the discussion will find a way to manifest itself in making the site better.
I agree with this, and imo others are overlooking that these spontaneous discussions are generally atleast partially dota related (such as this one)
Leloup's wording makes it sound like he is advocating for a "pure" no dota chat, but in practice that isn't what people talk about.
How many random chat threads have we seen in the last month? My opinion is that by denying casual, random "dota" chat you end up killing it.
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28088 Posts
On November 25 2014 07:22 Jinxed wrote:That thread is a bit weird. I see what you're saying, but it doesn't feel like an 'official' non-dota thread it's more of just a place where people have been going in order to shitpost.
huh? not sure what you are talking about? I just linked the first post because Heyoka explained what the tavern was about.
This was in response to the guy who asked whether tavern was for non dota talk or not.
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^ extending on my post
Typical DO NOTS:
1. Want to talk about heroes, builds, items, or ways to play the game?
Go to the strategy forum.
2. Want to complain/brag about your recent game?
Go to QQ Thread / Pub Meta Discussion / Good Things that happened.
3. Want to talk about current games going on?
Go to its appropriate LR thread.
4. A big news item just appeared?
Post in its thread in the Dota 2 General
5. Have a big personal life event?
Make a blog.
GD produced interesting/funny conversation because it was the intersection of all of these. Partitioning the forums doesn't just split the discussion, it prevents the formation of new topics
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PA arguing with PA is hard to keep track of
too many PA's since the arcana huehuehue
PS my brilliant idea for improving the site is to make all staff have "staff" icons from dota items (Mystic Staff, Staff of wizardry, Quarterstaff, Oblivion Staff, Force staff, etc  )
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As someone who has been around a long time, i have to say, the GD thread was a bit of a fucking cesspit and was frankly embarassing to read at times. Unless you're part of the clique or have been reading the same thread since the beginning it was pointless. Not sure why they never just used IRC like most people who want to chat shit all day but whatever.
I think some of the reason the site sucks is that, compared to our BW and sc2 counterparts is that the dota community is generally playing more than theorycrafting, so less interesting stuff is posted/written up.
Also the lack of dedication from staff is pretty mindblowing. Why break us apart from the main TL site (and my damn home page for ten years) if you don't really have a plan or dedicated staff in place. I understand people have real life commitments but really you shouldnt be volunteering to take forward a new site i guess?
Dunno, rambling some.
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On November 25 2014 07:39 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 07:22 Jinxed wrote:That thread is a bit weird. I see what you're saying, but it doesn't feel like an 'official' non-dota thread it's more of just a place where people have been going in order to shitpost. huh? not sure what you are talking about? I just linked the first post because Heyoka explained what the tavern was about. This was in response to the guy who asked whether tavern was for non dota talk or not.
Ah, misread on my part. Apologies.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 25 2014 07:49 Nebula wrote:
Also the lack of dedication from staff is pretty mindblowing. Why break us apart from the main TL site (and my damn home page for ten years) if you don't really have a plan or dedicated staff in place. I understand people have real life commitments but really you shouldnt be volunteering to take forward a new site i guess? .
That's not really fair. At the time we had both; plans and staff. Unfortunately a variety of real life issues hit a number of key figures in our management; things that we really couldn't anticipate or work around. We still have a clear vision for what we want to do here but that can only happen once we build things up again.
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You may not be able to anticipate or 'work around' issues with key staff but you can certainly communicate to the community. I wonder how many more weeks (months) of stagnation that would have gone by if this thread didn't exist. I also find it hard to believe it would be require much effort to find replacement volunteers in a pinch to do various activities around the site to at a minimum, give the illusion that something is being worked on.
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/467938-sep-26-community-hero-challenge
This was the last outreach to the community from high level staff and it's still unresolved and confused if you read the thread. If Heyoka had to bow out for a bit, it's not hard for another admin to come in to announce the winners and build the hype for the next event. It's not like anyone would be mad that Heyoka himself didn't post the follow-up, anyone could do it to the same effect.
We all understand real life issues interfering with work but sometimes creative solutions are needed. As a user, I just don't buy the 'nothing we could do' mantra because you had staff issues. If staff issues reached such a critical mass that the sites content and direction came to a screeching hault, a simple blog update from any high admin saying, 'we have X vision, sorry it's taking awhile we have blah blah going on behind the scenes but we're excited for what's coming' and you'd probably quell the masses enough to figure everything out.
I think the general focus of this thread is too small scale though, things like 'bring back GD' or 'TL-Reunification' are ultimately uninteresting and less important to the sites success. There are major hurdles that LD needs to tackle to get anywhere close to resembling the close knit, community driven utopia that TL was (at least in our heads). If I get time at work tomorrow I might write a wall of text explaining some of those hurdles and where I think LD went wrong.
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i stopped posting on here since GD died.
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On November 20 2014 07:15 Comeh wrote:
After that, I just kept posting closer and closer to the limit of what would normally get someone banned to see what would happen.
Nothing ofc
The concern about shit posting shouldn't even be an issue assuming the report button works and mods respond before shit gets out of control (ie; caster bashing in LR threads). The guys who posted low quality shit in the past know who they are and it seems like they're wiling to play nice.
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On November 25 2014 07:43 Sn0_Man wrote:PA arguing with PA is hard to keep track of too many PA's since the arcana huehuehue PS my brilliant idea for improving the site is to make all staff have "staff" icons from dota items (Mystic Staff, Staff of wizardry, Quarterstaff, Oblivion Staff, Force staff, etc )
a first time dota player wouldn't know the difference
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 25 2014 08:56 crms wrote:You may not be able to anticipate or 'work around' issues with key staff but you can certainly communicate to the community. I wonder how many more weeks (months) of stagnation that would have gone by if this thread didn't exist. I also find it hard to believe it would be require much effort to find replacement volunteers in a pinch to do various activities around the site to at a minimum, give the illusion that something is being worked on. http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/467938-sep-26-community-hero-challengeThis was the last outreach to the community from high level staff and it's still unresolved and confused if you read the thread. If Heyoka had to bow out for a bit, it's not hard for another admin to come in to announce the winners and build the hype for the next event. It's not like anyone would be mad that Heyoka himself didn't post the follow-up, anyone could do it to the same effect. We all understand real life issues interfering with work but sometimes creative solutions are needed. As a user, I just don't buy the 'nothing we could do' mantra because you had staff issues. If staff issues reached such a critical mass that the sites content and direction came to a screeching hault, a simple blog update from any high admin saying, 'we have X vision, sorry it's taking awhile we have blah blah going on behind the scenes but we're excited for what's coming' and you'd probably quell the masses enough to figure everything out. I think the general focus of this thread is too small scale though, things like 'bring back GD' or 'TL-Reunification' are ultimately uninteresting and less important to the sites success. There are major hurdles that LD needs to tackle to get anywhere close to resembling the close knit, community driven utopia that TL was (at least in our heads). If I get time at work tomorrow I might write a wall of text explaining some of those hurdles and where I think LD went wrong. Your criticisms are certainly valid, so please don't take this post as an excuse. We're well aware of our shortcomings and are in the process of fixing that. Heyoka having to leave the site for personal reasons is something that happened very recently, there's a lot of stuff (both internal and external) that he was working on that we're slowing catching up with. The lack of response from 'high level' staff is more reflective of the number of 'high level' staff we have at the moment than anything else. We essentially have one person looking after one site at the moment, Heyoka's sudden departure from the site means 'high level' activity goes from 1 to 0 until we got word what was happening from him. Me and Naz had talked about where to go from here before this blog was posted (although this thread sure as hell massively upped the urgency on it) and then I was at a math conference last week and wasn't around when this was posted (I'm in the final year of a PhD you see).
You're welcome to write a post about the problems with LD and where LD went wrong (although the latter probably won't be close to correct because you're not seeing what's going on internally). We're also not in the business of making claims about our vision or where we want the site to go, the reason being that we aim pretty damn high and to not reach those goals would let down the community if we stated them.
Re: 'close knit community'. I think LD already achieves that to a large extent. The majority of complaints from this thread were about staff-side issues (and rightly so).
One last thing. We take this site very seriously, if not for my studies demanding so much from me I'd be here 24/7 doing whatever I could to fill the gaps. Instead we're slowing forming a new way to get the site to where we want it to be and it's gradually taking shape. You might not see immediate changes left and right, but I personally aim to have (at the very least) the issues raised in this thread properly treated within three months.
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it's not much but i sure can confirm that the management indeed is trying its best
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Don't mean to sound like a dick, and yes, I realise that's something you usually say when you pretend to be nice, but it doesn't really look like it.
Surely no one is expecting sweeping changes by the end of the day, but when even little things like a casual conversation thread need to be discussed thoroughly seemingly weeks, that's just sad. Apparently LD wasn't in a state of disarray that needed to be urgently addressed 6 days ago either.
I'm sorry to be blunt like this and please don't take it as a personal attack either, real life definitely is more important than anything on the interwebz, but it feels nothing like the days of old on TL when there was something interesting going on all the time. Be it some TL produced foreign BW content/starleague hypu/interesting and properly moderated strategy discussion/powerranks.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Yeah I don't take any of that personally, especially when what your saying is true. In primarily looking after TL I wasn't as aware as I should have been of the issues going on in LD, this thread put those issues in the right priority box. That's what I mean when I say 'bumped up the urgency'.
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I would like to echo what other people have said. I've been coming less and less to LD as time has gone by. It just seems everything has become stale. The site isn't moving or churning out unique articles. I can go to TL or LH and see something new everyday. It's good to know that you guys are aware of the issue. Hopefully, we can get LD back on track.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On November 25 2014 09:07 Shaella wrote:
i stopped posting on here since GD died.
i miss u michelle
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On November 25 2014 18:25 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 09:07 Shaella wrote:
i stopped posting on here since GD died. i miss u michelle
This is the most beautiful love story ever, see what you are doing to us LD?
YOU ARE TEARING US APART!!!
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EPT
