I'm reading "Avilo helped pioneer a style that isn't good but he's still comparable to MC. Discuss." and I am REALLY confused.
First off, if Avilo pioneered a useful style, then that's great. He should receive all the recognition in the world for it. If he's trying out things that never really caught on (like how TLO or CatZ will play weird or super-innovatively sometimes but most players generally might not implement those tactics in their games), then you can call Avilo creative, but there's not that much to credit him for unless he makes a difference in the metagame.
And second, what the heck is MC doing in this conversation for comparative purposes skill-wise and pioneer-wise? MC's made the most money in SC2 and has won countless big tournaments; his gameplay already works/ worked for him at the highest levels of the game. Much of what MC is known for is just playing the game perfectly (great 2-base timings, amazing ffs, etc.), so he's a lot less likely to create a brand new style because he doesn't need to. He already wins (historically) by simply being the best. That's completely different than Avilo.
On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote: How about Goody?
The strategy being discussed here that Avilo pioneered is turtling into a massive lategame raven death-ball. This style frequently results in games that go over the 60 minute mark. Most of Goody's mech games don't even go past the 30 minute mark. There is simply no comparison between Avilo's mech and Goody's mech. Completely different playstyle.
the same style is done in basically every FFA with decent terran players, and has since WoL. I've seen the same type of builds on ladder occasionally since WoL as well. And while it's safe to say every build has probably been done by someone, somewhere, that shouldn't stop someone from being able to pioneer a style.
The problem is that no other notable terran players are saying "avilo showed me this"(as far as I'm aware). I just don't see how someone can say "avilo pioneered splitting the map and building ravens" when it was already done long ago, and avilo has very few results.
On July 04 2014 01:11 lovelyrose wrote: the same style is done in basically every FFA with decent terran players, and has since WoL. I've seen the same type of builds on ladder occasionally since WoL as well. And while it's safe to say every build has probably been done by someone, somewhere, that shouldn't stop someone from being able to pioneer a style.
The problem is that no other notable terran players are saying "avilo showed me this"(as far as I'm aware). I just don't see how someone can say "avilo pioneered splitting the map and building ravens" when it was already done long ago, and avilo has very few results. few results.
Avilo was using mass-ravens way back in WoL, when the seeker missile only had a range of 6 or something, and he's a much higher level player than most FFA players.
So yeah, I think it is safe to say that he pioneered the turtle into mass ravens strategy. It's just that more people are paying attention to it now that ravens have been buffed.
On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote: How about Goody?
The strategy being discussed here that Avilo pioneered is turtling into a massive lategame raven death-ball. This style frequently results in games that go over the 60 minute mark. Most of Goody's mech games don't even go past the 30 minute mark. There is simply no comparison between Avilo's mech and Goody's mech. Completely different playstyle.
Avilo is a lot like Destiny in this regard. Both of them changed the meta of their underpowered race by using a lategame spellcaster. They both took games off top Koreans using this style. Both of them complained nonstop about protoss. Both of them have GM rank and trade wins. Both of them are caucasian, short, and talk funny. I could go on... Seriously just ask
On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote: How about Goody?
The strategy being discussed here that Avilo pioneered is turtling into a massive lategame raven death-ball. This style frequently results in games that go over the 60 minute mark. Most of Goody's mech games don't even go past the 30 minute mark. There is simply no comparison between Avilo's mech and Goody's mech. Completely different playstyle.
I have a question and excuse my frustration but, WHAT IN THE HELL is the best response to this BS style of play Terran's do? Camp behind tanks, mass ravens, vikings, PF's , Turrets, some widowmines, ect...it seems like it is LITERALLY impossible to attack, PFF takes away almost all the options Zerg has....are we supposed to just roach / baneling all in and hope Terran dies? Really fast Roach / Hydra mass & cross fingers / roll through and pray that Terran doesn't expect it? I don't get WTF to do, because I have tried swarmhost, this just gives terran more options / ability to sit comfortably, i've had the most success with mass mutalisks and microing good, but still then vikings mixed with ravens, a few thors and widowmines, makes the mutas useles.
i've tried playing passively with roach hydra as well as offensively , which can work ok sometimes but still with the tanks, and then PFF's it makes this style useless as well, lings and banelings might be useless but also complementing them with the mutalisks, I could POSSIBLY see the potentiality of overcoming the terran early on with fewer banelings and more mutalisks, and zerglings...but the zerglings / banelings won't do anything to ravens / vikings / widowmines ( when in defensive position ) , or anything in the air, will then lose a bunch of mutalisks and will in turn be behind and will have to remass muta's because that is the only option, which will then get shut down once again because if the terran gains the advantage once with the mass raven / viking / ect. army, you can't remax / overwhelm the Terran unless you had other things in the game to give you a substancial lead....
SO WTF are u supposed to do? Mass swarmhost , queen, possibly infestors, spore / spine, expand to every base, and just sit for an hour +++ ? Every game that i've like this always lasts over an hour....and it is the most extremely frustrating situation to play in as Zerg....seriously about to switch to Protoss because of this.... lol
I've won a few games by faking SH (make 2 or 3 swarm hosts), so that the terran thinks "okay, let's go in tank defense-mode, and when I have enough tanks, I'll transition to air". But in the mean time I went hive before making any SH, and double upgrade spire into quick brood lord/corruptor. If you catch the terran before his air-switch gets strong, you can surprise him badly and instakill him if his raven/viking count is low.
But this kind of relies on not being scouted, so it's definitely not a legit tactic for every map/game. Maybe it gets you a couple of wins!
On July 03 2014 10:34 GGzerG wrote: I have a question and excuse my frustration but, WHAT IN THE HELL is the best response to this BS style of play Terran's do? Camp behind tanks, mass ravens, vikings, PF's , Turrets, some widowmines, ect...it seems like it is LITERALLY impossible to attack, PFF takes away almost all the options Zerg has....are we supposed to just roach / baneling all in and hope Terran dies? Really fast Roach / Hydra mass & cross fingers / roll through and pray that Terran doesn't expect it? I don't get WTF to do, because I have tried swarmhost, this just gives terran more options / ability to sit comfortably, i've had the most success with mass mutalisks and microing good, but still then vikings mixed with ravens, a few thors and widowmines, makes the mutas useles.
i've tried playing passively with roach hydra as well as offensively , which can work ok sometimes but still with the tanks, and then PFF's it makes this style useless as well, lings and banelings might be useless but also complementing them with the mutalisks, I could POSSIBLY see the potentiality of overcoming the terran early on with fewer banelings and more mutalisks, and zerglings...but the zerglings / banelings won't do anything to ravens / vikings / widowmines ( when in defensive position ) , or anything in the air, will then lose a bunch of mutalisks and will in turn be behind and will have to remass muta's because that is the only option, which will then get shut down once again because if the terran gains the advantage once with the mass raven / viking / ect. army, you can't remax / overwhelm the Terran unless you had other things in the game to give you a substancial lead....
SO WTF are u supposed to do? Mass swarmhost , queen, possibly infestors, spore / spine, expand to every base, and just sit for an hour +++ ? Every game that i've like this always lasts over an hour....and it is the most extremely frustrating situation to play in as Zerg....seriously about to switch to Protoss because of this.... lol
Hey, you know , Blizzard introduced in HotS an unit called VIPER. Use it , really. That's what you're supposed to do against this kind of mech play. Mass vipers. Abduct = profit. Ofc this thing is micro intensive which might be a problem for zerg players trying it for the first times.
On July 04 2014 05:09 eightym wrote: Avilo is a lot like Destiny in this regard. Both of them changed the meta of their underpowered race by using a lategame spellcaster. They both took games off top Koreans using this style. Both of them complained nonstop about protoss. Both of them have GM rank and trade wins. Both of them are caucasian, short, and talk funny. I could go on... Seriously just ask
So if Destiny gets credit for the four-fester hit squad, then Avilo should get credit for avilo-mech.
With the exception at major tournaments, at the peak of Infestor-dom, Destiny was actually renowned by Koreans as well as having come up with something clever, while Avilo was the angry guy with the funny hat in the corner.
On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote: How about Goody?
GoOdy is the grandfather of mech TvEverything
Avilo is a whining GM who will never achieve any good results, but whose "personality" caters to a great deal of people watching streams.
Just like Destiny or Dragon main gimmick is their personality and interaction with chat etc.
I have nothing against either of the 3, but I wouldn't really consider either of them viable sources of professionalism nor consider them top players. They are entertainers to each their own niche audience and I'm okay with that
Also, saying that Avilo is "Objectively" a good player is a laugh. You can't objectively quantify what a good player is, and even if you could, I doubt many would agree with you.
Exactly! Not sure why people don't see this. The stupidity sometimes goes beyond words. I watched a show with Idra and Destiny as guests and there were viewers questions. A couple of questions were in the direction - "Which of you will win in 1v1?"... The funny thing was that Destiny wasn't embarrassed at all by this question.
I'm pretty sure he actually did invent something that shows how HoTS actually kinda broken. He can camp behind that shit but he can't beat swarm hosts. Nor can swarm hosts beat him in less th an ~3 hours. Seems kind of broken.. There needs to be some kind of tie breaker or something, as someone in his stream chat said.
Fantasy had some good words to say about avilo... that has to say something. Perhaps they are familiar with his style... dunno, would have to ask them to be sure.
EPT
