Avilo plays a well-thought out style of TVZ based on turtling. I'm not a Terran player, so my description won't be perfect, but essentially he defends his bases while building up to a max army of mech units and ravens. Even after maxing, he'll still slowly expand while staying in a defensive posture. Sometimes he'll move out after winning a major engagement. Other times, he'll just let the Zerg throw units against his barricade until they starve themselves (often times with a much bigger economy than his).
Perhaps most distinctive about his way of play is his use of PDD. By dropping down hundreds every TVZ game, he insulates himself against Swarm Hosts.
Normally, I sneer at people who attribute styles to anyone but top-tier Korean players. After all, if I open Carriers every PVP game, and at Blizzcon Classic does the same, it would be silly for me give myself credit. I'm not playing the same game as he is.
However, objectively, Avilo is a good player. No, he won't win a premier tournament. But I could probably say the same about MC. And I wouldn't hesitate to append his name on to particular way of playing.
No, Avilo isn't MC, but where do you draw the line? Avilo's style is comprehensive. He employs it nearly every TVZ game he plays. He is a Grandmaster player. Why shouldn't we give him credit for the way he plays? I'm inclined to. At the very least, I don't think people should consider it sacrilegious when he's referred to in TVZ live report threads where the Terran uses PDD against Swarm Hosts.
He can say he pioneered a style of whining about Terran before it was cool, and even when it was invalid. Putting MC and Avilo in the same sentence is insane with regards chances to win a major tournament.
There are plenty of good GM players, but Avilo Avilos. He is a grandmaster at deluding himself into thinking why he lost in was a result of imbalance rather than a mistake he made (he has been doing this for years).
using PDD vs sh is hardly something one can pioneer, many mech players are doing that and a single micro technique isnt something to pioneer imo. but yeah, he can say that he pioneered that extreme turtle mech style, but most people would still probably hint at reality or some of the eu mech terrans as the more popular players who played that style
I understand what you're saying with your Avilo + MC example... but it's just a completely awful example. MC is completely capable of winning a premier tournament. He won WCS EU season 1 and got 2nd at IEM Sao Paulo..
I think maybe if he wasn't a huge asshole and unbelievably whiny then people wouldn't get sour when that style is attributed to him instead of a top Korean. Remember Spanishiwa?? Everyone knew that he pioneered the gasless style and he was very well liked because he wasn't BM, didn't whine on top of being very helpful and willing to share what he knew (which avilo can be).
I think Destiny back in WOL is somebody who could also fit this category. He's a total asshole to people that he doesn't know, but he played well enough to be known and he popularized the use of infestors at a time where nobody was using them.
On July 03 2014 07:51 Epishade wrote: I think Destiny back in WOL is somebody who could also fit this category. He's a total asshole to people that he doesn't know, but he played well enough to be known and he popularized the use of infestors at a time where nobody was using them.
I've gone back and forth, but this is mostly how I look at it. I think Catz also might be able to lay claim to a few builds/styles of his own.
yes he came up w/ something strong and annoying, but i don't see what further credit he deserves (any more so than he already does) than that. everyone knows that's how he plays. he isn't "good". i don't understand the point of this topic. again, everyone attributes the mass raven turtle strat to players like avilo already.
"However, objectively, Avilo is a good player. No, he won't win a premier tournament. But I could probably say the same about MC. And I wouldn't hesitate to append his name on to particular way of playing. "
Except you can't say the same about MC because MC actually has won major events and can back up any trash talk with results. Avilo hasn't won anything or even had any impressive non-tournament results. Grandmaster is nothing
I don't think being "first" has anything to do with it, but whether his style has had an affect on the meta and changed the way people think about it. For instance, $o$ is hugely influential because every Protoss, pro or otherwise, threatened cannon rush to Zerg fast expand and made it credible enough to slow their greed.
In that sense, I don't see Avilo being particularly influential.
On July 03 2014 09:58 coverpunch wrote: I don't think being "first" has anything to do with it, but whether his style has had an affect on the meta and changed the way people think about it. For instance, $o$ is hugely influential because every Protoss, pro or otherwise, threatened cannon rush to Zerg fast expand and made it credible enough to slow their greed.
In that sense, I don't see Avilo being particularly influential.
+1
Slayers pioneered a TvZ style taht featured Blue Flame Hellions. Blizzard responded by nerfing the Blue FLame upgrade into oblivion. Now that is impact.
Avilo also claims he "invented" the "double wall" in Red Alert 3. He is always claiming he is "revolutionizing the game". And, he is not.
On July 03 2014 07:51 Epishade wrote: I think Destiny back in WOL is somebody who could also fit this category. He's a total asshole to people that he doesn't know, but he played well enough to be known and he popularized the use of infestors at a time where nobody was using them.
Stephano was using them and losing in the RO16 or RO8 in lots of early CraftCup events. But, he stuck with it, and eventually perfected it.
I have a question and excuse my frustration but, WHAT IN THE HELL is the best response to this BS style of play Terran's do? Camp behind tanks, mass ravens, vikings, PF's , Turrets, some widowmines, ect...it seems like it is LITERALLY impossible to attack, PFF takes away almost all the options Zerg has....are we supposed to just roach / baneling all in and hope Terran dies? Really fast Roach / Hydra mass & cross fingers / roll through and pray that Terran doesn't expect it? I don't get WTF to do, because I have tried swarmhost, this just gives terran more options / ability to sit comfortably, i've had the most success with mass mutalisks and microing good, but still then vikings mixed with ravens, a few thors and widowmines, makes the mutas useles.
i've tried playing passively with roach hydra as well as offensively , which can work ok sometimes but still with the tanks, and then PFF's it makes this style useless as well, lings and banelings might be useless but also complementing them with the mutalisks, I could POSSIBLY see the potentiality of overcoming the terran early on with fewer banelings and more mutalisks, and zerglings...but the zerglings / banelings won't do anything to ravens / vikings / widowmines ( when in defensive position ) , or anything in the air, will then lose a bunch of mutalisks and will in turn be behind and will have to remass muta's because that is the only option, which will then get shut down once again because if the terran gains the advantage once with the mass raven / viking / ect. army, you can't remax / overwhelm the Terran unless you had other things in the game to give you a substancial lead....
SO WTF are u supposed to do? Mass swarmhost , queen, possibly infestors, spore / spine, expand to every base, and just sit for an hour +++ ? Every game that i've like this always lasts over an hour....and it is the most extremely frustrating situation to play in as Zerg....seriously about to switch to Protoss because of this.... lol
Yes, he has a distinctive way of playing a matchup, a style that not many others regularly use. Like it or hate it there definitly is such a thing as an "Avilo playstyle"
On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote: How about Goody?
GoOdy is the grandfather of mech TvEverything
Avilo is a whining GM who will never achieve any good results, but whose "personality" caters to a great deal of people watching streams.
Just like Destiny or Dragon main gimmick is their personality and interaction with chat etc.
I have nothing against either of the 3, but I wouldn't really consider either of them viable sources of professionalism nor consider them top players. They are entertainers to each their own niche audience and I'm okay with that
Also, saying that Avilo is "Objectively" a good player is a laugh. You can't objectively quantify what a good player is, and even if you could, I doubt many would agree with you.
I'm reading "Avilo helped pioneer a style that isn't good but he's still comparable to MC. Discuss." and I am REALLY confused.
First off, if Avilo pioneered a useful style, then that's great. He should receive all the recognition in the world for it. If he's trying out things that never really caught on (like how TLO or CatZ will play weird or super-innovatively sometimes but most players generally might not implement those tactics in their games), then you can call Avilo creative, but there's not that much to credit him for unless he makes a difference in the metagame.
And second, what the heck is MC doing in this conversation for comparative purposes skill-wise and pioneer-wise? MC's made the most money in SC2 and has won countless big tournaments; his gameplay already works/ worked for him at the highest levels of the game. Much of what MC is known for is just playing the game perfectly (great 2-base timings, amazing ffs, etc.), so he's a lot less likely to create a brand new style because he doesn't need to. He already wins (historically) by simply being the best. That's completely different than Avilo.
On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote: How about Goody?
The strategy being discussed here that Avilo pioneered is turtling into a massive lategame raven death-ball. This style frequently results in games that go over the 60 minute mark. Most of Goody's mech games don't even go past the 30 minute mark. There is simply no comparison between Avilo's mech and Goody's mech. Completely different playstyle.
the same style is done in basically every FFA with decent terran players, and has since WoL. I've seen the same type of builds on ladder occasionally since WoL as well. And while it's safe to say every build has probably been done by someone, somewhere, that shouldn't stop someone from being able to pioneer a style.
The problem is that no other notable terran players are saying "avilo showed me this"(as far as I'm aware). I just don't see how someone can say "avilo pioneered splitting the map and building ravens" when it was already done long ago, and avilo has very few results.
On July 04 2014 01:11 lovelyrose wrote: the same style is done in basically every FFA with decent terran players, and has since WoL. I've seen the same type of builds on ladder occasionally since WoL as well. And while it's safe to say every build has probably been done by someone, somewhere, that shouldn't stop someone from being able to pioneer a style.
The problem is that no other notable terran players are saying "avilo showed me this"(as far as I'm aware). I just don't see how someone can say "avilo pioneered splitting the map and building ravens" when it was already done long ago, and avilo has very few results. few results.
Avilo was using mass-ravens way back in WoL, when the seeker missile only had a range of 6 or something, and he's a much higher level player than most FFA players.
So yeah, I think it is safe to say that he pioneered the turtle into mass ravens strategy. It's just that more people are paying attention to it now that ravens have been buffed.
On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote: How about Goody?
The strategy being discussed here that Avilo pioneered is turtling into a massive lategame raven death-ball. This style frequently results in games that go over the 60 minute mark. Most of Goody's mech games don't even go past the 30 minute mark. There is simply no comparison between Avilo's mech and Goody's mech. Completely different playstyle.
Avilo is a lot like Destiny in this regard. Both of them changed the meta of their underpowered race by using a lategame spellcaster. They both took games off top Koreans using this style. Both of them complained nonstop about protoss. Both of them have GM rank and trade wins. Both of them are caucasian, short, and talk funny. I could go on... Seriously just ask
On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote: How about Goody?
The strategy being discussed here that Avilo pioneered is turtling into a massive lategame raven death-ball. This style frequently results in games that go over the 60 minute mark. Most of Goody's mech games don't even go past the 30 minute mark. There is simply no comparison between Avilo's mech and Goody's mech. Completely different playstyle.
I have a question and excuse my frustration but, WHAT IN THE HELL is the best response to this BS style of play Terran's do? Camp behind tanks, mass ravens, vikings, PF's , Turrets, some widowmines, ect...it seems like it is LITERALLY impossible to attack, PFF takes away almost all the options Zerg has....are we supposed to just roach / baneling all in and hope Terran dies? Really fast Roach / Hydra mass & cross fingers / roll through and pray that Terran doesn't expect it? I don't get WTF to do, because I have tried swarmhost, this just gives terran more options / ability to sit comfortably, i've had the most success with mass mutalisks and microing good, but still then vikings mixed with ravens, a few thors and widowmines, makes the mutas useles.
i've tried playing passively with roach hydra as well as offensively , which can work ok sometimes but still with the tanks, and then PFF's it makes this style useless as well, lings and banelings might be useless but also complementing them with the mutalisks, I could POSSIBLY see the potentiality of overcoming the terran early on with fewer banelings and more mutalisks, and zerglings...but the zerglings / banelings won't do anything to ravens / vikings / widowmines ( when in defensive position ) , or anything in the air, will then lose a bunch of mutalisks and will in turn be behind and will have to remass muta's because that is the only option, which will then get shut down once again because if the terran gains the advantage once with the mass raven / viking / ect. army, you can't remax / overwhelm the Terran unless you had other things in the game to give you a substancial lead....
SO WTF are u supposed to do? Mass swarmhost , queen, possibly infestors, spore / spine, expand to every base, and just sit for an hour +++ ? Every game that i've like this always lasts over an hour....and it is the most extremely frustrating situation to play in as Zerg....seriously about to switch to Protoss because of this.... lol
I've won a few games by faking SH (make 2 or 3 swarm hosts), so that the terran thinks "okay, let's go in tank defense-mode, and when I have enough tanks, I'll transition to air". But in the mean time I went hive before making any SH, and double upgrade spire into quick brood lord/corruptor. If you catch the terran before his air-switch gets strong, you can surprise him badly and instakill him if his raven/viking count is low.
But this kind of relies on not being scouted, so it's definitely not a legit tactic for every map/game. Maybe it gets you a couple of wins!
On July 03 2014 10:34 GGzerG wrote: I have a question and excuse my frustration but, WHAT IN THE HELL is the best response to this BS style of play Terran's do? Camp behind tanks, mass ravens, vikings, PF's , Turrets, some widowmines, ect...it seems like it is LITERALLY impossible to attack, PFF takes away almost all the options Zerg has....are we supposed to just roach / baneling all in and hope Terran dies? Really fast Roach / Hydra mass & cross fingers / roll through and pray that Terran doesn't expect it? I don't get WTF to do, because I have tried swarmhost, this just gives terran more options / ability to sit comfortably, i've had the most success with mass mutalisks and microing good, but still then vikings mixed with ravens, a few thors and widowmines, makes the mutas useles.
i've tried playing passively with roach hydra as well as offensively , which can work ok sometimes but still with the tanks, and then PFF's it makes this style useless as well, lings and banelings might be useless but also complementing them with the mutalisks, I could POSSIBLY see the potentiality of overcoming the terran early on with fewer banelings and more mutalisks, and zerglings...but the zerglings / banelings won't do anything to ravens / vikings / widowmines ( when in defensive position ) , or anything in the air, will then lose a bunch of mutalisks and will in turn be behind and will have to remass muta's because that is the only option, which will then get shut down once again because if the terran gains the advantage once with the mass raven / viking / ect. army, you can't remax / overwhelm the Terran unless you had other things in the game to give you a substancial lead....
SO WTF are u supposed to do? Mass swarmhost , queen, possibly infestors, spore / spine, expand to every base, and just sit for an hour +++ ? Every game that i've like this always lasts over an hour....and it is the most extremely frustrating situation to play in as Zerg....seriously about to switch to Protoss because of this.... lol
Hey, you know , Blizzard introduced in HotS an unit called VIPER. Use it , really. That's what you're supposed to do against this kind of mech play. Mass vipers. Abduct = profit. Ofc this thing is micro intensive which might be a problem for zerg players trying it for the first times.
On July 04 2014 05:09 eightym wrote: Avilo is a lot like Destiny in this regard. Both of them changed the meta of their underpowered race by using a lategame spellcaster. They both took games off top Koreans using this style. Both of them complained nonstop about protoss. Both of them have GM rank and trade wins. Both of them are caucasian, short, and talk funny. I could go on... Seriously just ask
So if Destiny gets credit for the four-fester hit squad, then Avilo should get credit for avilo-mech.
With the exception at major tournaments, at the peak of Infestor-dom, Destiny was actually renowned by Koreans as well as having come up with something clever, while Avilo was the angry guy with the funny hat in the corner.
On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote: How about Goody?
GoOdy is the grandfather of mech TvEverything
Avilo is a whining GM who will never achieve any good results, but whose "personality" caters to a great deal of people watching streams.
Just like Destiny or Dragon main gimmick is their personality and interaction with chat etc.
I have nothing against either of the 3, but I wouldn't really consider either of them viable sources of professionalism nor consider them top players. They are entertainers to each their own niche audience and I'm okay with that
Also, saying that Avilo is "Objectively" a good player is a laugh. You can't objectively quantify what a good player is, and even if you could, I doubt many would agree with you.
Exactly! Not sure why people don't see this. The stupidity sometimes goes beyond words. I watched a show with Idra and Destiny as guests and there were viewers questions. A couple of questions were in the direction - "Which of you will win in 1v1?"... The funny thing was that Destiny wasn't embarrassed at all by this question.
I'm pretty sure he actually did invent something that shows how HoTS actually kinda broken. He can camp behind that shit but he can't beat swarm hosts. Nor can swarm hosts beat him in less th an ~3 hours. Seems kind of broken.. There needs to be some kind of tie breaker or something, as someone in his stream chat said.
Fantasy had some good words to say about avilo... that has to say something. Perhaps they are familiar with his style... dunno, would have to ask them to be sure.
EPT
