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Avilo plays a well-thought out style of TVZ based on turtling. I'm not a Terran player, so my description won't be perfect, but essentially he defends his bases while building up to a max army of mech units and ravens. Even after maxing, he'll still slowly expand while staying in a defensive posture. Sometimes he'll move out after winning a major engagement. Other times, he'll just let the Zerg throw units against his barricade until they starve themselves (often times with a much bigger economy than his).
Perhaps most distinctive about his way of play is his use of PDD. By dropping down hundreds every TVZ game, he insulates himself against Swarm Hosts.
Normally, I sneer at people who attribute styles to anyone but top-tier Korean players. After all, if I open Carriers every PVP game, and at Blizzcon Classic does the same, it would be silly for me give myself credit. I'm not playing the same game as he is.
However, objectively, Avilo is a good player. No, he won't win a premier tournament. But I could probably say the same about MC. And I wouldn't hesitate to append his name on to particular way of playing.
No, Avilo isn't MC, but where do you draw the line? Avilo's style is comprehensive. He employs it nearly every TVZ game he plays. He is a Grandmaster player. Why shouldn't we give him credit for the way he plays? I'm inclined to. At the very least, I don't think people should consider it sacrilegious when he's referred to in TVZ live report threads where the Terran uses PDD against Swarm Hosts.
 
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He can say he pioneered a style of whining about Terran before it was cool, and even when it was invalid. Putting MC and Avilo in the same sentence is insane with regards chances to win a major tournament.
There are plenty of good GM players, but Avilo Avilos. He is a grandmaster at deluding himself into thinking why he lost in was a result of imbalance rather than a mistake he made (he has been doing this for years).
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using PDD vs sh is hardly something one can pioneer, many mech players are doing that and a single micro technique isnt something to pioneer imo.
but yeah, he can say that he pioneered that extreme turtle mech style, but most people would still probably hint at reality or some of the eu mech terrans as the more popular players who played that style
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Others did it earlier and better?
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I understand what you're saying with your Avilo + MC example... but it's just a completely awful example. MC is completely capable of winning a premier tournament. He won WCS EU season 1 and got 2nd at IEM Sao Paulo..
I think maybe if he wasn't a huge asshole and unbelievably whiny then people wouldn't get sour when that style is attributed to him instead of a top Korean. Remember Spanishiwa?? Everyone knew that he pioneered the gasless style and he was very well liked because he wasn't BM, didn't whine on top of being very helpful and willing to share what he knew (which avilo can be).
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I think Destiny back in WOL is somebody who could also fit this category. He's a total asshole to people that he doesn't know, but he played well enough to be known and he popularized the use of infestors at a time where nobody was using them.
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On July 03 2014 07:51 Epishade wrote:
I think Destiny back in WOL is somebody who could also fit this category. He's a total asshole to people that he doesn't know, but he played well enough to be known and he popularized the use of infestors at a time where nobody was using them.
I've gone back and forth, but this is mostly how I look at it. I think Catz also might be able to lay claim to a few builds/styles of his own.
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yes he came up w/ something strong and annoying, but i don't see what further credit he deserves (any more so than he already does) than that. everyone knows that's how he plays. he isn't "good". i don't understand the point of this topic. again, everyone attributes the mass raven turtle strat to players like avilo already.
"However, objectively, Avilo is a good player. No, he won't win a premier tournament. But I could probably say the same about MC. And I wouldn't hesitate to append his name on to particular way of playing. "
Except you can't say the same about MC because MC actually has won major events and can back up any trash talk with results. Avilo hasn't won anything or even had any impressive non-tournament results. Grandmaster is nothing
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I don't think being "first" has anything to do with it, but whether his style has had an affect on the meta and changed the way people think about it. For instance, $o$ is hugely influential because every Protoss, pro or otherwise, threatened cannon rush to Zerg fast expand and made it credible enough to slow their greed.
In that sense, I don't see Avilo being particularly influential.
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On July 03 2014 09:58 coverpunch wrote:
I don't think being "first" has anything to do with it, but whether his style has had an affect on the meta and changed the way people think about it. For instance, $o$ is hugely influential because every Protoss, pro or otherwise, threatened cannon rush to Zerg fast expand and made it credible enough to slow their greed.
In that sense, I don't see Avilo being particularly influential.
+1
Slayers pioneered a TvZ style taht featured Blue Flame Hellions.
Blizzard responded by nerfing the Blue FLame upgrade into oblivion.
Now that is impact.
Avilo also claims he "invented" the "double wall" in Red Alert 3. He is always claiming he is "revolutionizing the game".
And, he is not.
On July 03 2014 07:51 Epishade wrote:
I think Destiny back in WOL is somebody who could also fit this category. He's a total asshole to people that he doesn't know, but he played well enough to be known and he popularized the use of infestors at a time where nobody was using them.
Stephano was using them and losing in the RO16 or RO8 in lots of early CraftCup events.
But, he stuck with it, and eventually perfected it.
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I have a question and excuse my frustration but, WHAT IN THE HELL is the best response to this BS style of play Terran's do? Camp behind tanks, mass ravens, vikings, PF's , Turrets, some widowmines, ect...it seems like it is LITERALLY impossible to attack, PFF takes away almost all the options Zerg has....are we supposed to just roach / baneling all in and hope Terran dies? Really fast Roach / Hydra mass & cross fingers / roll through and pray that Terran doesn't expect it? I don't get WTF to do, because I have tried swarmhost, this just gives terran more options / ability to sit comfortably, i've had the most success with mass mutalisks and microing good, but still then vikings mixed with ravens, a few thors and widowmines, makes the mutas useles.
i've tried playing passively with roach hydra as well as offensively , which can work ok sometimes but still with the tanks, and then PFF's it makes this style useless as well, lings and banelings might be useless but also complementing them with the mutalisks, I could POSSIBLY see the potentiality of overcoming the terran early on with fewer banelings and more mutalisks, and zerglings...but the zerglings / banelings won't do anything to ravens / vikings / widowmines ( when in defensive position ) , or anything in the air, will then lose a bunch of mutalisks and will in turn be behind and will have to remass muta's because that is the only option, which will then get shut down once again because if the terran gains the advantage once with the mass raven / viking / ect. army, you can't remax / overwhelm the Terran unless you had other things in the game to give you a substancial lead....
SO WTF are u supposed to do? Mass swarmhost , queen, possibly infestors, spore / spine, expand to every base, and just sit for an hour +++ ? Every game that i've like this always lasts over an hour....and it is the most extremely frustrating situation to play in as Zerg....seriously about to switch to Protoss because of this.... lol
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FFA players knew that mass raven was the top composition long before it hit 1v1
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Yes, he has a distinctive way of playing a matchup, a style that not many others regularly use. Like it or hate it there definitly is such a thing as an "Avilo playstyle"
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On July 03 2014 13:04 Oboeman wrote:
FFA players knew that mass raven was the top composition long before it hit 1v1
QFT
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Well, you could always just call it Avilo-style, while other people don´t. No harm done.
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While he certainly has a playstyle, I highly doubt anyone skilled uses it because Avilo uses it.
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That style has been around since WoL. I think Morrow did it too Leenock (?) in 2011 right after the ghost nerf.
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On July 03 2014 07:13 s.a.y wrote:
How about Goody?
GoOdy is the grandfather of mech TvEverything
Avilo is a whining GM who will never achieve any good results, but whose "personality" caters to a great deal of people watching streams.
Just like Destiny or Dragon main gimmick is their personality and interaction with chat etc.
I have nothing against either of the 3, but I wouldn't really consider either of them viable sources of professionalism nor consider them top players. They are entertainers to each their own niche audience and I'm okay with that 
Also, saying that Avilo is "Objectively" a good player is a laugh. You can't objectively quantify what a good player is, and even if you could, I doubt many would agree with you.
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EPT
