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Hi
I have searched google and asked a couple of friends but have not found out good advice yet. I'm looking for anyone who had similar experience or has legal information for me.
My issue is related to Tenant / Landlord dispute. It's in regard to signing a lease and being given false information through ignorance.
EDIT: I live in Philadelphia, PA and I am a student. I am dealing with a management company not just a single landowner
Yesterday I signed a 12 month lease with a lady who was supposed to answer questions. I told her I was going to stay 10 months and wanted to know the break contract clause and how much it would cost me. She told me it was 500$ + 25$ x 2 months remaining = 550$ TOTAL. This was totally fine with me and I signed it because I liked that clause.
Today, she sends me an email saying it is actually 500$ + 25$ x 2 months remaining + all the rent also due 800$ x 2 = 2150$. 2150$ is MUCH more than 550$ she originally told me yesterday when I was trying to understand the lease.
I went in the office to complain and the more senior people were rude and told me I signed the contract so its binding. I told them she told me it was 550$ but then she claimed she didn't know and never mentioned it.
They told me she was a new employee only there for a week and did not know.... but now she is denying telling me the wrong information.
I have taped the conversation so I have proof to her admitting she did not know how much the breakout clause is which is ridiculous because I asked her to check and make sure it was 550$ like she said. I also have an email I received today of her trying to hide her tracks by saying "As I told you yesterday, it is blah blah blah 2150$".
My question to teamliquid is... What are my options?
There has to be a law where if they tell you verbally something wrong and you sign it, it cannot be valid... or else I could just lie about something and make u sign a contract..
If I go to lawyer, will it cost more than I would be saving? Can I get out of this contract and look for a month to month apartment? Or should I just suck it up and take the hit?
Thanks and I really appreciate any legal advice or pointing me in the right direction.
  
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We do have lawyers on TL so maybe wait for their advice.
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Thanks I am really in need of some advice.
I also feel like a badass recording the whole conversation even though they were ganging up on me to protect the "new employee" and making me feel like shit.
Unfortunately I did not record her telling me the false information.. I thought you can usually just trust them to know the facts since it is their lease...
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What state are you in? Are you going to school?
Edit: Go through your school, they'll usually set you up well legally and for little if any cost.
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As a student, you have access to resources through your school. If nothing turns up here, that might be a resource you could look into. You won't be the first student to encounter this sort of problem and they might be able to describe to you the outcomes of past incidents.
Good luck!
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United States23455 Posts
I would recommend going through channels in your school to try to get help. If you have evidence that they breached their contract then you should be fine. It's interesting I also live in Philly and am a student haha. If you go to Temple Professor Boles would do that shit Pro bono haha.
I'm no lawyer but I feel that you'll be fine here.
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I'm a lawyer -- albeit a Colorado lawyer.
What does the contract say? If it says that you have pay the larger penalty (ie you didn't read it before signing it), you may have some problems. If this ends up in front of a Court, you could plead "mistake," arguing that it was the intent of the parties that you be subject to the lesser penalty and that the Court should reform the contract to reflect that reality.
As for your tape recording, I don't know about Pennsylvania law, but some states place restrictions on one's ability to surreptitiously record conversations. If Pennsylvania has such a law, you may not be allowed to use your tape recording as evidence in Court, in which case you're probably screwed.
Pennsylvania may also have some special tenants rights laws that will afford you extra protections. You'd have to chat with a Pennsylvania lawyer to be sure, which I absolutely recommend that you do. Try to find a pro bono outfit that can offer you some legal advice.
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So your contract doesn't explicitly outline the cost of breaking your tenancy early? That seems strange as it's usually one of the most important thing in a rental contract.
By the way, the costs that she is giving you doesn't sound very fair to me, I mean that really means that no one will ever break the contract early, you might as well let your friends free load for a couple of months until it ends as you will be paying it one way or another.
I don't really think it's wise to sue them or anything, even if you get a favourable outcome, they will do their best to make your stay as miserable as possible, (being there, done that.)
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On March 07 2014 06:46 lantz wrote:
I thought you can usually just trust them to know the facts since it is their lease...
Welcome to the real world, this is why everything you ask for needs to be in writing.
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Can't you leak the tape to the press, so no one knows where it came from? :o
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i am a lawyer on the internet, and everyone knows that what is in writing is what is enforceable.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 07 2014 09:36 32 wrote:
Can't you leak the tape to the press, so no one knows where it came from? :o
The press would not care at all about a landlord-tenant dispute unless there was some other reason to care about it (like the landlord is someone famous) which doesn't sound like the case here.
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So I'm pretty screwed then?
They are all rude and shit ...
Can someone explain to me who pays the legal fees? Both sides or the loser?
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most likely it will depend what the contract says. any ive signed makes it clear what the penalty is for booking early
what you want to do is talk to a local lawyer who knows tenant/landlord law, and learn to not sign shit without reading stuff/knowing all facts first
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I read it but she told me false information that she tried to cover up the next day with another email........
Yes I know how to read but if someone tells u stuff you kinda have to believe some of it
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This isnt relevant but where in philly are you? Im in west chester and Ive never talked to anyone on tl that was even close
edit: I can also tell you that any half decent lawyer that can get you your money back will charge way more than what its worth to hire them
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On March 07 2014 12:00 lantz wrote:
I read it but she told me false information that she tried to cover up the next day with another email........
Yes I know how to read but if someone tells u stuff you kinda have to believe some of it
I would always get that shit in writing just to cover your ass. Your future landlord should understand where you're coming from, and it pays to be responsible and organized about it. If she's not willing to make such a thing available and put it in writing for you just to be safe, then she's probably not the type of person you want as your landlord.
My expertise: I just watched an episode of Suits.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
haha cute. never realized why my parents were such hardasses about what was in print until i had to sign shit myself. anyhow if you don't make any headway with getting your lease changed, look to sublet the last 2 months to someone on craigslist. there are generally peeps looking for just a few months for summer internships and stuff near a university. 10 months is enough time to find someone
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Ok thanks for the advice.
This was more the case of she had no fcking idea what she was doing and told me wrong information and any questions I asked her are probably not credible now... Like I asked if the carpets were cleaned (they looked dirty) and she said they were...
she's clearly new at her job and I happened to be the first victim... This is just wrong and I feel like I should be able to make it right.. but i guess if the costs outweigh the benefits im screwed.
Also, now they all hate me in the apartment probabily... im in a sticky situation so I might even want out now.
Also, I go to Upenn so they have some helpful links on their law school website.
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damn your a upenn guy? if you happen to play lax I know a few guys on the team..
anyway good luck with your case, it kinds sounds like a dumbass receptionist
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Just because the agency is incompetent doesn't remove your responsibility of consideration. When the contract is offered, you sign agreeing to their terms, if you do not agree, then don't sign.
If the terms of the contract in not enforceable (because they break the law) then the contract is not valid, if i were you I would be looking into that.
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Talk to someone, you might have a shot. I don't know how things work where you are, but in Canada there have been cases where rescission was granted based on an innocent misrepresentation that served as material inducement.
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You should get in the habit of reading contracts before you sign them.
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On March 07 2014 22:11 Teker wrote:
You should get in the habit of reading contracts before you sign them.
EDIT: Sorry got kinda offended. I am a Penn senior applying to phd programs in Econ. I'm just trying to say I'm not an idiot and signed without reading. (although my reading skills not up to date because of all the math classes I've taken  )
I read the contract. Pointed to the part where it said break-out clause and asked her to clarify what it entailed. I asked her what it meant to clarify and she told me something wrong and even gave me an example. Then I said it was worded a bit differently but she said she explained it correctly.
Yes, I will be more careful in the future to trust people who are supposed to know their job... but my question pertains to what my options are with this specific incident.
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On March 07 2014 23:46 lantz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 22:11 Teker wrote:
You should get in the habit of reading contracts before you sign them. You should get in a habit of reading the blog before commenting.
LOL. Also, people saying to read contracts before signing haven't tried it for very long. I successfully did that for like six months, but then I came across a software product with 1120 pages of no-paragraph legalese EULA. Then I realized there's no way to actually do that sort of thing consistently. You quite literally do not have the time to do so.
It's a different thing for housing arrangements, maybe (no experience with that yet!) but I doubt it. You have to just look at the broad strokes of the agreement and hope that the rest is okay. Looks to me that you're screwed by the liar, but I'm not a lawyer.
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I hate renting here..
Honestly, i would pay the $550 and see if they come after you. You might have a chance in small claims court with that audio recording. At least make them work for it.
The degree from UPenn should soon compensate for any potential hit to your credit rating. 
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1120-1118 pages = the size of an average housing lease
seeing as you dont have experience with it, maybe you shouldnt comment?
i am still confused op. what does your signed lease say about breaking it early?
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sigh, I appreciate all these responses but now I know what the lease says and it wasn't worded very clearly. Since I'm not a lawyer or have any legal experience, I asked her to clarify what the break fee was because I didn't want to assume I was reading it correct... it is my first time.
This is what her email said the day after:
As I explained there will be a Lease break fee for $500, and then each month left on the lease (from the day you leave) there is a re-rental cost circa $24/month. These costs are in addition to your monthly rent
On the lease, it was worded in 1 sentence and not as clear as that. Also logically this makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn't I just leave the apartment there with no one in it and pay the additional rent instead of paying a fee on top of the additional rent. So a part of me believed her because what she said originally sounded reasonable
Anyways, I have a hard ass math test in a few days so I might just accept that you get screwed in life since these comments sound grim. I just thought there was a law that said you can't lie to the person to get them to sign. Otherwise the lease is void.
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On March 07 2014 07:57 xDaunt wrote:
I'm a lawyer -- albeit a Colorado lawyer.
What does the contract say? If it says that you have pay the larger penalty (ie you didn't read it before signing it), you may have some problems. If this ends up in front of a Court, you could plead "mistake," arguing that it was the intent of the parties that you be subject to the lesser penalty and that the Court should reform the contract to reflect that reality.
As for your tape recording, I don't know about Pennsylvania law, but some states place restrictions on one's ability to surreptitiously record conversations. If Pennsylvania has such a law, you may not be allowed to use your tape recording as evidence in Court, in which case you're probably screwed.
Pennsylvania may also have some special tenants rights laws that will afford you extra protections. You'd have to chat with a Pennsylvania lawyer to be sure, which I absolutely recommend that you do. Try to find a pro bono outfit that can offer you some legal advice.
Thanks for posting this.
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TLADT24920 Posts
man, this sounds rough :/ I want to say that you should try to consult what you found on your university's website but I'm honestly not sure just how much it'll help and the time commitment it would be especially since you said you had a test coming up. Best of luck OP!
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before you go plan on subletting, see that a) it is legal and b) that your lease allows you to.
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On March 07 2014 23:57 ZerglingSoup wrote:I hate renting here.. Honestly, i would pay the $550 and see if they come after you. You might have a chance in small claims court with that audio recording. At least make them work for it. The degree from UPenn should soon compensate for any potential hit to your credit rating.
I'm with this guy. Although you are locked in, they might not come after you if they can get a new tenant in there fast enough. The rent money is money they would lose for those two month. They can't really coke offer you for it if they are renting out the unit to someone else(well they could, but the judge might not look kindly on trying to double dip).
At the end of the day, the clause is there for people who suddenly break their lease with little warning. Your best bet is to tell them you plan to leave and to talk to them about getting a tenant for those two months. More effort you put into trying to fix the problem, the better it is for you.
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On March 08 2014 02:30 QuanticHawk wrote:
before you go plan on subletting, see that a) it is legal and b) that your lease allows you to.
Thanks, I will keep that in mind.
When I read it, I believe the lease says it does not allow me to.
It's tough negotiating/working with larger management companies because they are not very flexible and have an ironclad lease..
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On March 08 2014 00:05 lantz wrote:
sigh, I appreciate all these responses but now I know what the lease says and it wasn't worded very clearly. Since I'm not a lawyer or have any legal experience, I asked her to clarify what the break fee was because I didn't want to assume I was reading it correct... it is my first time.
This is what her email said the day after:
As I explained there will be a Lease break fee for $500, and then each month left on the lease (from the day you leave) there is a re-rental cost circa $24/month. These costs are in addition to your monthly rent
On the lease, it was worded in 1 sentence and not as clear as that. Also logically this makes absolutely no sense. Why wouldn't I just leave the apartment there with no one in it and pay the additional rent instead of paying a fee on top of the additional rent. So a part of me believed her because what she said originally sounded reasonable
Anyways, I have a hard ass math test in a few days so I might just accept that you get screwed in life since these comments sound grim. I just thought there was a law that said you can't lie to the person to get them to sign. Otherwise the lease is void.
Well the law does say that you can't lie to the person to get them to sign. But law is much more complex than that.
In this case the misrepresentation was not fraudulent. That makes things much tougher for you. But even in cases of innocent misrepresentation you might have remedy available. I don't know the law where you are, but your case doesn't sound that bad. I would still try to talk to someone.
In the end though, its unlikely that legal action would be worth it. But knowing the law might help you negotiate a modification.
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Hyrule19026 Posts
As someone who has lived Philadelphia, I can basically say you're a bit fucked. Contact a lawyer. Some will do a free consult.
That having been said, here's what I know:
Most courts won't enforce any punitive fees and would only hold you responsible for remaining rental costs
Landlords/rental companies are expected to mitigate monetary loss by finding a replacement tenant ASAP
http://wisephiladelphialawyer.com/ I've seen recommended a few times. They'll at least answer questions about cost. Usually hiring a lawyer for small claims like these is cheaper than paying fine and such...as long as you win.
You are entitled to a copy of your lease. If the rental company/landlord whatever won't give one to you, get a lawyer and sue their asses.
If you have a confusingly/poorly worded lease (not just legalese, but actually confusing), you might be able to get out of it without paying anything.
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I've decided I am too noob at the law to do anything about this incident.
It is also too time consuming to do anything about it.
Therefore, I will bend over.
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Hyrule19026 Posts
and that's exactly why these companies always get away with it
congrats for ruining it for the rest of us
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I find it hard to believe that you exhausted your options; did you not look into whether or not your school provides legal assistance? I've dealt with something very similar and my university's legal counsel worked wonders. Don't be a wussy.
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Just write terrible online reviews of the company. A local newspaper might find the story interesting and write about it. You don't have to go off and "sue the big guy" like you see in ridiculous movies, but you can take some action that doesn't require unrealistic effort, and then move on with your life.
Also who cares if a lease says you can't sublet... My lease says I can't have a cat, and yet here I am petting my cat. They can't legally inspect your residence without prior 2 days notice here where I live, and I'm sure there's something similar for you.
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I first tried 2 lawyers.
1 wanted 250$ an hour and wanted me to come in right away without hearing my case (clearly wanted money)
the second one wanted 325$ an hour and gave me some free phone advice but still wanted me to come in asap. Told me it was illegal to record people without permission. So basically, I have no evidence.
After speaking with them, I rather not get "scammed" by them because it could take multiple hours of work on their part and cost me a ton and I still might lose the case.
I did check with my school for free legal advice and they referred me to the community legal services or something. I don't have time to sort through the details tho since my midterm is coming up.
So I didn't exactly "give up" since I did try most of my options.
Also I will take Cecil advice and try to sublet it even tho it says you cannot. It's hard for them to prove you are subletting anyway.
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This is how most companies get away with thing in general. When I was younger my family got into a dispute with a homebuilder and even though we were 100% in the right, the amount of money it would take to fight the case through court just did not warrant doing so. Even if you can get fees compensated, often this is after the case is over. e.g. u have to initially outlay $10k to fight a case worth $20k and you wont get either for the 2-3 years it takes to see the whole thing through. This is best case scenario.
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Law student here. I'll give this a shot.
There are several routes you can go with this. It depends on your State / jurisdiction but I'll give you some basics.
You can argue unconscionability, basically saying that it was an unfair procedural exchange. But it doesn't seem to be a substantive exchange so I don't know how likely this approach will work. It also doesn't seem like an adhesive contract. Where exactly is the clause that describes this additional payment located? Is it hard to find? This will be a factor.
The other approach you can go is go through Parol Evidence. That contract is the final contract right? Is it supposed to be meant as the final expression of agreement between you guys? Is the additional payment per month included in the contract? If not, they cannot force you to pay it. If it is, it's going to be really hard for you.
I think your BEST route will be through promissory estoppel. Since you would not have signed the contract without that assurance of $550 for canceling, you can say that there was detrimental reliance that led you to sign it. We are not disputing the fact that you signed it, but only that you depended on her oral words that led you to sign it. Of course, the other party will argue that she never said those words. But if the other party simply admits that she was new and didn't know what she was talking about, then you will win. Otherwise, it will be hard. The court will assess evidence from both sides and try to see if there was such happening. But simply the fact that you are in court at the beginning of the lease will make the court believe your side of the story more. People who make up stories like yours don't dispute their contract before they even live there.
Go see a real lawyer. Honestly, I think it'll come down to your word vs. her word. The fact that she's new will work against them. Try to show evidence that $1500 more will be a drastic blow to your income, and you had other apartments in mind, will help them believe your side of the story.
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This is more Contract law than Property law so you don't need to think about tenant-landlord relationship that much. Anyway, I think you will save more money by sub-leasing. That's what most normal people do anyway who need to leave their apartment for the last few months. You will spend more money getting legal advice I bet.
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EPT
