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On February 16 2014 12:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 11:50 Forester wrote:
Jinro, do you mind if I ask how you support yourself while doing MMA? Is it solely through your poker winnings or are you working as well? Poker is my job. Ive never had a regular job in my life, played poker and sc2 for a living since I was 17.
I knew that's how you have been supporting yourself up till now, I was just wondering if you're able to make enough to live off of solely through poker while also devoting 3+ hours a day to intensive physical training. That's really cool and mad props man.
P.S. Been a longtime fan, the day you quit SC2 was a sad day for me.
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pretty sure you can take out anderson silva xD
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 16 2014 13:11 Betelgeuse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 12:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 16 2014 11:50 Forester wrote:
Jinro, do you mind if I ask how you support yourself while doing MMA? Is it solely through your poker winnings or are you working as well? Poker is my job. Ive never had a regular job in my life, played poker and sc2 for a living since I was 17. Is it easier to make money in Poker than SC2? Any pros/cons to both professions ?
Hm, poker requires more effort/study to actually get good at (like, you could just play SC2 and watch some and eventually get quite good, but nowadays you need to actually actively study the game and the theory behind to have a shot in poker), but getting to a point where you can make a normal salary+, there's definitely more people doing that in poker than in progaming overall.
Different would, for me, be that the stress in SC was always centered around some very high highs and very low lows. Like when you prepare for a month for a tournament or qualifier then bomb out in round 1 you just want to kill yourself, whereas with poker it's more of a series of mild disappointments and mild exhilaration, with some deep valleys and soaring heights interspersed every here and there.
The poker community and SC community are both pretty similar, they both used to be overwhelmingly positive when the respective games were in the ascendant (poker experienced a big trauma in 2011 following its ban in the US, referred to as black friday), but can be a bit negative nowadays as the game basically went from a legal money press to a cutthroat competition between good players. They still both have a lot of really cool people sharing ideas and whatnot tho.
On February 16 2014 14:12 Forester wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2014 12:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 16 2014 11:50 Forester wrote:
Jinro, do you mind if I ask how you support yourself while doing MMA? Is it solely through your poker winnings or are you working as well? Poker is my job. Ive never had a regular job in my life, played poker and sc2 for a living since I was 17. I knew that's how you have been supporting yourself up till now, I was just wondering if you're able to make enough to live off of solely through poker while also devoting 3+ hours a day to intensive physical training. That's really cool and mad props man. P.S. Been a longtime fan, the day you quit SC2 was a sad day for me.
So far it's working out  I could make more money playing only poker, but I think I would end up in a similar spot to where I was when I quit SC2: burnt out and unhappy. So, for now I think this is a good balance.
I played about 600,000 hands of poker last year, which is enough that I dont feel lazy but far below what the hardcore grinders do (I also play less tables than most of them tho).
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Jinro, Starcraft misses you. You and Huk were the only progamers I would stay up till 4am to watch play GSL. Good writeup.
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Have to agree a lot.
I have pretty much moved on from constantly arguing and just enjoy the games.
The sad thing is that some people can't appreciate how great a player played just because of a matchup imbalance
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I don't like all this SC2 positivity... it feels weird and it's scaring me. Can we just go back to being really negative?
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It doesn't matter what problems SC2 does or doesn't have. It's the problems with the community that we should be focused on.
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Thank you![[image loading]](http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/4-the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif) http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/4-the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif you, based Jinro! You may not be the context we deserve, but you are definitely the context we have.
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Good read and good luck with Poker/MMA!
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Good post! Glad to hear Jinro still lives!
I've played BW for about 10 years, and SC2 since release...until about a month or so ago. I find it interesting how I played BW for those 10 years just because I had so much fun but I really only played SC2 because of local tournaments where I could go and meet people, hangout with some buds etc. I never actually liked SC2 because I think the core mechanics are horrendous and ruin the game (chronoboost, mules, larva inject, warp gates, unit clumping, creep tumors, force fields, overlords poop creep) but I played it because of the local scene and I like to compete.
I've come to realize that improvements will be made to the game but the core values will never change. So why waste hours on end getting mad at a game when I can go play something else and have fun? Even watching pro matches lost most of it's fun..."2 good storms from the toss...and T is dead", "Z lost their entire army and are at 80 supply! Wait, now they're at 200 again".
The strategies just don't look as appealing as the BW ones. I loved seeing a big ol wall of dragoons with a wall of zealots smack into a Terran tank/mine position. Mines blowing up, goon blood everywhere and that nasty good reaver control! It's not easy moving 5+ control groups of units...everyone appreciated and understood that. Now we get a mosh pit of stuff slapping into another mosh pit of stuff. The light show SC2 puts on is nice but it loses it's excitement fairly quickly for myself. 1a, 1a, 1a. Need to build units? Hold down a button for a second or two.
Has the game improved since WoL? Most definitely has! Will it improve further? Sure hope so. I think the limiting factor is the core mechanics of the game. Blizzard has said in the past they will not change the core mechanics because they feel it defines each race which adds fun. Does it add fun? For casual gamers, yes. For competitive play, I think it ruins it. I think that's why everyone got so excited when Starbow came out. It feels like an updated version of BW. A few new fancy tricks, but still that same feel for the most part.
To sum this up, yes, the game has improved a lot and most will expect it to continue doing so. There will be a surge of viewers/players when the next expansion comes out but, in all honesty, I wouldn't hold my breath that SC2 will suddenly be the top watched game again. I think it had it's chance and Blizzard sat still for too long and made some bad choices overall. Blizzard could have made more money but missed out (imagine if Blizzard did what DOTA/LOL have done when SC2 originally came out).
...then again, I played SC2 since release so I guess they did something right!
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Baltimore, USA22253 Posts
<3 FA, keep doing your thang.
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On February 16 2014 04:25 Heyoka wrote:That's why all this is so frustrating to read the hate on TL/reddit. SC2 as a game has never been better yet all people want to do is whine.  At least some people get it.
One thing that bothers me is that the issue of balance whines should, in all honesty, be addressed by moderators like yourself. It should not be the duty of the average TL viewer to formulate complete, constructive criticism on SC2 because a lot of people are just casual players and no not have complete SC2 and BW knowledge. It is really the job of the MODERATORS to really guide (and in essence TEACH) the TL viewers on what is constructive and positive for the community.
I know MODs have done a lot on TL regarding the very issue of balance whines, but I still feel its not enough. It also doesn't help that some mods on TL are openly BW elitists and that Reddit r/starcraft and Blizzard SC2 forums do very little in terms of moderating. I still do appreciate the work that TL mods put in, and with this Jinro's post I hope the community can go forward under a more positive light.
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How about you return to sc2? MKP and Select did a comeback, you can too!
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On February 16 2014 04:39 danteafk wrote:good read. everyone else would've gotten a warning or even a ban for this. based.
You're right! Where's kadaverbb? He'll ban you for farting the wrong way...so this should be punished!!
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that was a really good read. I'm pretty sure a match between you and mkp was the first professional game i ever saw, a crazy base race situation that came down to the wire, I was hooked. I come from poker and love MMA and I honestly have to say you seem like one of the coolest dudes around. Good luck with the fight game, and i hope you have the time to keep popping back here once in awhile cause this came as an awesome breath of fresh air.
Jinro fighting!!! (for real)
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France9034 Posts
Oh. the. read......
Thank you Jinro for that post, I can't say how much that makes me happy to have that kind of a read on TL.
I think I've flirted in the past with the line between a normal fan and a "dead game/dead scene" kind of fan (how is it even a fan haha ?), and this post clearly shows that the second category shouldn't even exist. It won't make an impact on Twitch chats (who cares anyway, these souls are lost to us!), but I can totally expect this to have a positive effect on the mood here!
Jinro isn't the hero this community deserves, but he's the one it needs !
Kudos ! (and get well soon with a brand new rib!)
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Can't agree more, as a casual starcraft 2 watcher(basically ill watch if it's a good game and I happen to be browsing TL right when it's on) I am thoroughly enjoying it.
Do miss amazing bio micro in tvz though, but to be fair I haven't seen many tvz's lately, too much P!
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Thanks Sir Jinro for the awesome discussion.. You brought back many many cool moments back in WoL.. Especially your TvT and the Marine-splitting in TvZ sometimes was so good that you didn't even need tanks, but went for Hellions instead in order to lose to Burrowed Bane-mines, or win if there weren't any
Regarding the game itself though - I kinda agree with you, but also disagree.. Will try to be "as much honest" as possible, from my point of view ofc.
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First of all I'm a bronzie - yeah - one of those (so sorry for being a bit BM at the opening)..
But I did play BW on iccup, and had like a D grade, which means at least I could macro for quite a while to know something myself.. I'm mainly bronzie now cause I have a job, and can't commit to the game, almost 30 yo, e.t.c.
Still - I think I'm a very good at observing games, and not just games, but people that try/participate in it as well..
I'll try to give some examples to WHY are we here at where we are regarding the game, and that the "reactions" you see aren't thoroughly unjustified at least:
1 - people rarely played WoL, except those who played it.. The game obviously had a lot of flaws, near the end the game got a lot better, the infestor got good nerfs e.t.c., but a lot more people were watching the game then they were playing it IMO.. WoL felt kinda too hard at the beginning stages of each matchup with harder to set up defenses at the beginning, or at least harder to do the scouting with
2 - the Introduction of HotS was a big BOOOM for everyone - it was like - Hey Terran, now you can go mech against Protoss, and it was for Protoss - hey Protoss, now you finally can afford to open Stargate and not risk to lose to counterattacks.. So yah - the very early stages of HotS brought (IMO at least, cause I know I was one of them) a lot of new players in the game.. Those who played BW but found WoL too weird for example (ok, my personal case was I didn't have money to buy the game) to get it and play it
3 - The game was - see it yourself - 3 times more watched then EVVVEEEEEEEEER.. Like - see the first 3 months of the ending of the BETA and start of the release
4 - By having a lot more players - ofc. - the game will have more critical mass (I mean more of those who give critiques) in the game
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5 - Here's where the "real thing" in terms of argumentation is
a - HotS is the irony of greater fandom mass - so much more people started to play the game, figured out that it was figured out really fast, didn't see any alternatives, so they got "dissapointed" to say the least..
So yah - IMO - HotS by greater fandom base, but it's fandom got worse by "game standards" - like - the real irony of things is that now in HotS there are far more people playing that can't play.. But is that a bad thing ?? - certainly not I think..
Here's what happened for example:
b - Terrans had soooo much high hopes during the BETA, even though everyone knew that the unit which was scrapped in BETA - the Warhound, was utterly ridiculously strong.. IDK if you played the game back then, but the unit was like a mini-Thor, goliath-like IMBA thing that runs faster than Zerg units and shoots farther than half of the Protoss army.. Whatever - the point is - Blizzard realized their mistake so fast that they changed the unit with WM..
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The lack of testing of the new units before release:
c - Here's the 2nd problem / irony of the game state IMO - the game got released in a state in which both the new units - WM and the SH were released without a single tweaking/testing.. The WM was far too anti-Zerg intended that I hated the guts of it playing as Zerg and did almost nothing when I was playing Protoss.. Same when playing with Terran.. Blizz NEVER tried to test the unit in different ways - decrease it's strength vs Zerg and increase it's strength vs Protoss.. Like - the only WM changes we've seen were +35 primary damage to shields - in order to one-shot a Zealot or Oracle for ex. and that's it.. Then later on the unit got a little bit weaker vs Zerg - maybe a bit too too much.. BUT - here's the point:
The WM problem:
1 - the unit as if it had to be a slow-shot-one-big-blob a minute unit.. It was never tested with less splash and faster recharge-rate, or it was never tested in any sort of way possible to make it more versatile as opposed to being an anti-Zerg specialist unit.. Many saw that flaw and got it thoroughly explained, but nothing was changed:
2 - The Protoss simply didn't care for the WM as a unit cause they can afford to sac. a group of Zealots in first before moving in.. The mine has a 40 sec CD and becomes nothing more than a dead supply after firing.. And the Warpgate can bring in new fresh units in 10 sec - which means there are like 20 more seconds that Protoss could "chill", regen, regroup, and still have enough time to erase the Terran army with mines not reactivated.. As for Zerg for example - one painful mine, and retreat, and then the mines get recharged and there will be even more mines and a thicker mine-field for the next time you go in to engage.. This last patch change is the "finallly" that issue at least is looked now.. Everyone is like wow, this is sooo cool, but - to those that told the issue the very first day this is indeed far late answer, or should I say beginning of an answer to say the least
The SH problem:
As for the SwarmHost - many have complained (ofc. the problem is that there weren't notable "famous or important" people in this group) that the SH as a unit is far too expensive.. Like - having a unit that costs same as Mutalisks on gas and compared to the Mutalisks, they also eat up ALL your minerals as well isn't a good idea TBH.. However - the unit is far too expensive and it requires the most ridiculous upgrade in the game.. Ridiculous I say cause without it SHs can't even "nearly" defend themselves.. And with it - they're unapproachable..
TBH I rarely researched the upgrade, but used the unit almost in every game even back from Beta I've played.. And yah - happened to know that the unit was "good at design in terms of how it attacks", but it really is a bad unit in terms of execution --> you really have to make like 15 of them for them to make an impact, therefore having to babysit them in order provide them space/time for them to get cost-effective..
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The observation "criteria":
Let's be honest about one thing though - really doesn't require a professional to notice those 2 issues: again - the very same problem - the SH as a unit has never been tweaked in terms of how it would work.. It was never tested to be a Roach 2.0 unit (if you know what I mean), and now suddenly everyone says that the unit should be a Roach 2.0 like more "hit & run" unit.. But the very fault was that the unit was never tweaked how it could've been used in more versatile ways.. Like = 0 variations of the unit back in BETA - no change at all..
That's why we see the problems we face every day now.. The new units (probably talking about the 2 new units, not Tempest though) were "predefined" without even testing on ways how to "expand" their domain and making them more versatile..
I have been saying/asking for ages buff the WM against Protoss and nerf it vs Zerg.. Everyone who at least partially notices my posts know that I've been doing it for ages.. And pretty sure I wasn't the only one doing it.. Like I know that I'm not a good noticeable player, but just another more bronzie, but at least - if the post has a point, then has a point regardless of skill
Like - time has shown - even back from BW - that it is a relatively bad idea to make a unit thoroughly intended vs one of the other races.. like - irradiate for example.. True that there should've been specialist units per matchup back in BW, but also BW showed us that those things can break the matchup as well.. ZvT could be too painful cause of irradiate.. Like - am I the only person who's happy that Irradiate and/or Erasing didn't make it into SC2 ??
Also - think that some of the changes that the majority ask for - like the snipe nerf back in WoL for example - Blizz tends to wait too long, and then make an overreaction later on I think..
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A bit bonus of my personal impression of Terran:
But yah - many more have played HotS than WoL I think, and they've personally felt it on their own backs for example - that you can't play a good TvP unless trully a bonjwa at bio splitting  .. Like - all those "wanna try this game, looks so cooler than WoL" people were very rapidly disappointed (myself including) that TvP didn't have an alternative.. Like - not just cause in that regard, but in the regard that the new things were either far too strong in some situations, or useless in another
For example - Terran as a race has far too many specialized for special occasions unit, OR designed to "assist" marines.. Like the only few units that can operate by themselves without Marine "company" are the Ravens and BCs.. And maybe Ghosts and Thors, but everything else requires to be beside the Marine, ok Banshees, but their "domain" goes as far as your opponent doesn't have a single air unit.. So it's like - Terran as a race on a complete level - requires for you to be really good at using Marines.. If you're not - you won't make a single thing happen.. Protoss has alternatives, Zerg has alternatives, but Terran doesn't seem to have them.. Or if there are - then they're BOTH - too hard to get and also - they're broken (like mass Raven for example) .. Same with the SwarmHost - they're too expensive, but once you get them they're broken
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Summarization:
So a lot were asking for an alternative, but it just doesn't happen.. Not even get tested to say the least
The last WM suggestion is just a single step towards how things could've been if during the Beta they were more experimented/tested with in order to give more versatility..
However - the irony again - pretty sure that there are a lot of ppl that played BW, didn't buy WoL (just like I did), got "seduced" by HotS and bought it, in order to just get disappointed cause of the 2 new units that were never tested how better and more versatile they could've been..
Like - the matchups got figured out pretty fast too.. some were good and dynamic - like Bio-Mine vs Mutalisk/Ling/Bling, but others were really bad - like SHost vs Protoss
Speaking of versatility - very simple example: Why does Tempest have to have such a massive boost of DPS vs Massive Air units ??
It has 30 + 50 - like that's 166% of dps increase vs one particular type of units.. That wasn't even tweaked - like - before - Tempests had 0 bonuses, and suddenly - BAM --> +50 vs those units.. Like - the game would be far more "stabilized" if it got like 30 + 30, like - just an example - but think it would result so we could see even BLs and BCs.. I mean they had the +30 vs Massive (both air and ground), but they were a 300/300/6 unit..
So yah - like - that's a very, a very very little, simple example of a change that might make things A LOT better.. And yet never experimented with.. ofc. as in every other change - there would be a downside that would make Tempests 6-shot a Colossus instead of 5-Shot them, but still - just - count the "good vs evil" of it - completely "opens" more versatility - BLs getting 4-shot istead of 3, BCs becomming 10-shot istead or 7, e.t.c - and by e.t.c. - I mean Mothership getting 14-shot instead of 10, lol
Still - the benefits are greater than the downsides - Like - that's a very simple example
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Think people are now massively reacting to the "idea" of that there seems to be a bit lack of will to be testing and/or improving things.. And indeed there was, for quite a while I think..
Except the very lately, in which in a month we got like 3 "batches" of testing changes.. The 3 new units could've been far better and far more versatile in giving options without making the game stalemate or blocked, but just never did, like - not even tried it
I mean - ofc. at some point the game should get stabilized and not getting too much changed, but what we're seeing is the result of lack of "testing" and trying things even from back in Beta I think
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EPT
