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I've been working on a project for around a year now, and every month I tell myself "this is it. I'm gonna do it this month." And it keep not happening. And I don't have a six pack yet.
Want to know what an unproductive emotion is? Guilt. What's the best way to feel guilty? Set bad goals.
Thinking about this today, I had a beautiful insight today and wanted to share it with you all. Ask yourself: what makes a goal you set a good goal? There are two major parts:
I set a timer for 15 minutes on this post so you guys and gals get the quick and dirty
ONE
A good goal is one where you can measure and control for all the moving parts which compose it.
A bad goal is the opposite - just an unrealistic expectation you'll likely fail to meet and then feel bad about yourself.
TWO
Goal-setting is a skill, like any other. You won't be good at it until you start doing it. Goal-setting is an iterative skill.
Whenever you hear a good idea, put it into practice as quickly and immediately as you can. Get the fastest, easiest win possible.
Let's drive it in. You can spend hours wasting time and focus in your life, or you can suspend your disbelief for the next ten minutes and do a small exercise wherever you are.
1. Set a Goal: How many push-ups can you do in 10 minutes? Choose a number.
2. What are the assumptions you have behind your ability to do this? Write out 3. If you think this sounds stupid, so did I - now do it. Can you figure out the moving parts of your goal? (It's hard! :D )
3. Execute. Set a timer for 10 minutes, and do as many push-ups as you can.
4. Review: What was the variance from your goal? Why was that? What can you take out of the process of goal-setting as a whole?
Mine:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. 100
2. Assumptions
a) I could do 10/minute
b) In the final 3 minutes when I'm tired, I can do 5 every 30s
c) I'll use proper form so my wrist doesn't hurt
3. I did 103.
4 outside of spoiler
My variance was only +3. This is because I've been doing the gym and such for years, so my estimates of my physical ability are honed.
So why is this project I've been working on so hard?
- I can't control for my actual ability to excecute the project. So setting performance based goals around that is dumb. However, what I *CAN* account for is the time I spend making progress on it.
- This is different from push-ups precisely because I've set many, many goals related to fitness.
So, if you're new at something, time-based goals should be set. measure results by time spent
After you've set enough goals and gotten practice in that area, you can set performance based goals because you'll realistically know how long stuff will take you.
Until you have enough knowledge to reasonably control for the performance-based parts of a larger goal, don't plan goals based on performance.
This means: don't make your goal getting a six pack. Find the vein of action that will bring you towards success either through research or asking somebody. For fitness, its consistently doing A workout. Which truly doesn't matter as long as it doesnt cause injury.
Make your goal going to the gym MWF for a 60m workout. You can control every aspect of that.
30 seconds left. Nothing left to say. Let me know any insights you might get out of the pushup experiment, would love to hear em
  
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United States4883 Posts
Essentially what I feel like I'm reading is "set up a series of attainable short-term goals; do not try to set an end goal that is unobtainable in the near future." I agree. Progress is best measured (and achieved) with goals and achievements. If your goal is binary, you can no longer measure progress and thus become unable to really accomplish "improvement".
That said, I also really like to set a handful of crazy outlandish goals to test boundaries. Sometimes you'll set an insane, improbable goal that you'll end up actually achieving, and those moments are so surprising and interesting that they're worth the letdown of all the others. For instance, my goal is to move to California (from East Coast) in 2 years. Can I do it? I don't know, but I'm gonna try. In the off chance that I actually achieve that goal, I'll have achieved more than I thought I could actually do.
I also think this is relevant to Starcraft (and dota/LoL as well). When we make short term goals such as playing 10 games a day or improving specific parts of our play, we can actively look at our progress and measure our improvement. Simply shooting for the next rank or league doesn't give us anything to measure; it's a binary goal. 
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It depends on the person I think.
I think the most important thing is motivation. Different things motivate different people, big goals motivate me the most but that's because I'm a stubborn idiot with a lot of drive, but for some people lose confidence easily and they need lots of small increasing successes to keep their motivation.
I'm not saying small goal setting isn't important, I do that as well. But what keeps me going is the almost unattainable end-goal, if I only thought about small achievable goals like you do, I would lose motivation and not want to do it in the first place because its boring.
Someone like me can set myself one of your "bad goals" and I will give it a good hard slog for many years to try to attain it. When I achieve that goal that's often when I get bored and give up, so your "good goals" are actually bad for me because it makes me complacent.
Many corporations have used "Stretch Goals" to re-invigorate their employees into working really really hard for a cause and its really effective. There have been plenty of success stories where companies have created a stretch goal which seemed impossible at first, and then the company not only reached, but over-achieved that goal. Although it is important to also do it right.
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On February 07 2014 12:48 SC2John wrote:
That said, I also really like to set a handful of crazy outlandish goals to test boundaries. Sometimes you'll set an insane, improbable goal that you'll end up actually achieving, and those moments are so surprising and interesting that they're worth the letdown of all the others. For instance, my goal is to move to California (from East Coast) in 2 years. Can I do it? I don't know, but I'm gonna try. In the off chance that I actually achieve that goal, I'll have achieved more than I thought I could actually do.
hah, yes! I disagree with the wording and think its important to clarify but spot on.
On February 07 2014 13:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:
I think the most important thing is motivation.
if you mean motivation in terms of inspiration to do something in the moment and not the fundamental reason "why," then no absolutely not I disagree 100% with the importance of that kind of motivation. if you're chasing something as fleeting and temporary as that, and relying on it, you're dooming yourslef from the start. Make your success a part of who you are and remove something as temporary and unreliable as motivation from the equation entirely.
I agree with both of you on "stretch goals" in spirit. Words, however, make the difference between yes and no. Choosing a desired long-term outcome is important. Choosing goals for that isn't a bad approach in terms of the results it gets you, like how 50% of an ambitious goal is way farther than 100% of a smaller one.
The reason I think this way is superior is because what you're choosing is an outcome. Not a goal, but an outcome - an inevitable reality. Goals are merely the way of measuring progress towards that outcome. I think the way I described is best because optimizing for the present is always the best approach, but not that others won't get you where you want to go. I also suspect large wins are the punctures of many smaller breakthroughs we don't necessarily acknowledge or are even aware of.
but these are all ideas and theorycrafting, they're vague and I don't think thats helpful to you or anyone else reading this dialogue.
Goal: get a 6 pack. you get motivated to get in shape by watching videos and stuff and decide to go work out. you go for a week and do some really intense workouts. then your motivation is done. no more gym for a week, you didnt get a 6 pack and feel bad about yourself. there is no way you can have all the knowledge to even know what you need to do to get a 6 pack as an out of shape nerd. so that's a terrible goal.
Desired Outcome: get a 6 pack. investigate: whats the most important things to attaining this outcome? 1) working out consistently 2) eating right. now whats the best goal? depends on your comfort level with the gym. maybe its going to the gym once a week, maybe its even just going on a five minute jog. the point is, optimize for RIGHT NOW in a way where you can control all the factors and measure its success.
for me its go to the gym every MWF and complete a full body workout I like.
when you talk of stretch goals, I think you're talking about not a goal but an outcome or a validation of a desired fundamental reason WHY, as in there is a desired place to be and definite, concrete measurable steps are taken towards that outcome. people derive 'motivation' to do it not in the whimsical sense of it, but rather proving to themselves a deeper-level change. a change of who they are in the direction they want to go.
outcomes are a formality. goals are necessarily as short-term as they can be (even if it means 6mo to a year to even 5 years), but there is a definite yes/no and immediacy to them, and large goals are always built upon smaller victories. the path is always paved in the smallest optimizations towards the long-term outcome.
wow i hope this makes sense when i read it tomorrow
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On February 07 2014 16:37 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 12:48 SC2John wrote:
That said, I also really like to set a handful of crazy outlandish goals to test boundaries. Sometimes you'll set an insane, improbable goal that you'll end up actually achieving, and those moments are so surprising and interesting that they're worth the letdown of all the others. For instance, my goal is to move to California (from East Coast) in 2 years. Can I do it? I don't know, but I'm gonna try. In the off chance that I actually achieve that goal, I'll have achieved more than I thought I could actually do. hah, yes! I disagree with the wording and think its important to clarify but spot on. Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 13:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:
I think the most important thing is motivation.
if you mean motivation in terms of inspiration to do something in the moment and not the fundamental reason "why," then no absolutely not I disagree 100% with the importance of that kind of motivation. if you're chasing something as fleeting and temporary as that, and relying on it, you're dooming yourslef from the start. Make your success a part of who you are and remove something as temporary and unreliable as motivation from the equation entirely. I agree with both of you on "stretch goals" in spirit. Words, however, make the difference between yes and no. Choosing a desired long-term outcome is important. Choosing goals for that isn't a bad approach in terms of the results it gets you, like how 50% of an ambitious goal is way farther than 100% of a smaller one. The reason I think this way is superior is because what you're choosing is an outcome. Not a goal, but an outcome - an inevitable reality. Goals are merely the way of measuring progress towards that outcome. I think the way I described is best because optimizing for the present is always the best approach, but not that others won't get you where you want to go. I also suspect large wins are the punctures of many smaller breakthroughs we don't necessarily acknowledge or are even aware of. but these are all ideas and theorycrafting, they're vague and I don't think thats helpful to you or anyone else reading this dialogue. Goal: get a 6 pack. you get motivated to get in shape by watching videos and stuff and decide to go work out. you go for a week and do some really intense workouts. then your motivation is done. no more gym for a week, you didnt get a 6 pack and feel bad about yourself. there is no way you can have all the knowledge to even know what you need to do to get a 6 pack as an out of shape nerd. so that's a terrible goal. Desired Outcome: get a 6 pack. investigate: whats the most important things to attaining this outcome? 1) working out consistently 2) eating right. now whats the best goal? depends on your comfort level with the gym. maybe its going to the gym once a week, maybe its even just going on a five minute jog. the point is, optimize for RIGHT NOW in a way where you can control all the factors and measure its success. for me its go to the gym every MWF and complete a full body workout I like. when you talk of stretch goals, I think you're talking about not a goal but an outcome or a validation of a desired fundamental reason WHY, as in there is a desired place to be and definite, concrete measurable steps are taken towards that outcome. people derive 'motivation' to do it not in the whimsical sense of it, but rather proving to themselves a deeper-level change. a change of who they are in the direction they want to go. outcomes are a formality. goals are necessarily as short-term as they can be (even if it means 6mo to a year to even 5 years), but there is a definite yes/no and immediacy to them, and large goals are always built upon smaller victories. the path is always paved in the smallest optimizations towards the long-term outcome. wow i hope this makes sense when i read it tomorrow
Just because something works for you does't mean it works for everybody.
Its great that you've found a way that works! but you are only think about yourself.
Losing is really important for me. When I win I get bored, losing is what makes me strive to get harder. I have made the same mistake as you by putting people in extremely tough situations to begin with, because that's what works for me and they just wanna quit.
For me, the harder the challenge, the worse I fail, the harder I try.
Goal: get a 6 pack. you get motivated to get in shape by watching videos and stuff and decide to go work out. you go for a week and do some really intense workouts. then your motivation is done. no more gym for a week, you didnt get a 6 pack and feel bad about yourself. there is no way you can have all the knowledge to even know what you need to do to get a 6 pack as an out of shape nerd. so that's a terrible goal.
Yes I could have a goal like this and I'd be hitting the gym doing compounds 3 times a week for 2 years. Which is what I have been doing. Except I already have a six pack so that's not my goal specifically.
If I didn't get a six pack within a month, I wouldn't feel bad, I'd feel like I wasn't trying hard enough, so I'd be hitting the gym harder, dieting better and doing even more exercise.
I think the problem is that you didn't have a strategy. These small baby steps to hit a bigger goal is basically just a strategy. The fundamental difference is that you rely on this strategy to keep you motivated, which is fine. I don't need a strategy for motivation though, I need a strategy to know that I'm being as efficient as possible.
I have a set amount of reps, when I don't reach those reps, I increase the reps, when I do, I increase the weight. This strategy is basic progressive overload, but its not really goal setting. And yes strategies are extremely useful, but even they are not absolutely necessary.
I have an overarching goal, and I have a strategy to get there. For me personally I don't need tiny little goals to get better.
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On February 07 2014 13:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Many corporations have used "Stretch Goals" to re-invigorate their employees into working really really hard for a cause and its really effective. There have been plenty of success stories where companies have created a stretch goal which seemed impossible at first, and then the company not only reached, but over-achieved that goal. Although it is important to also do it right.
This is definitely true, but it doesn't apply perfectly to the individual level. Stretch goals are sometimes effective because the senior management really sells it as an obtainable stretch goal to get buy-in. Then they create rewards and accountability going down the org chart to set targets to meet the stretch goal. Finally, usually managers break a stretch goal into a series of shorter more obtainable goals. This allows you to be motivated by a big goal while having a specific plan with a series of obtainable goals along the way. Of course, this isn't universally true, but is often the way it works. Companies, like people often set stretch goals because they think that they alone are good enough to motivate people and drive change, however, if there isn't buy-in, accountability and action planning, then they usually fail - either because no one thinks it will actually happen, or because the organization doesn't have a plan on how it is going to get there.
There are definitely parallels for individuals setting stretch goals, but the most important is that you break your stretch goal into a series of achievable short term targets that get progressively more difficult. Generally, I think that will be more helpful to more people than simply setting stretch goals alone.
That said, I should try the pushup exercise when I get home. My guess is that I would totally underestimate the amount I could do in 10 minutes and my goal would be so easy to achieve, but I should try it to really find out. Personal and organizational goals have been on my mind a lot recently, and this seems like a pretty interesting exercise!
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United States4883 Posts
On February 07 2014 18:19 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Yes I could have a goal like this and I'd be hitting the gym doing compounds 3 times a week for 2 years. Which is what I have been doing. Except I already have a six pack so that's not my goal specifically.
This sounds like a subtle brag.
Also, Slugg, you're talking about the same thing, stop arguing lol. Let's not get caught up on semantics.
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This is a really mechanical way of thinking about it. In the end you need a solid reason for why you want a goal. A reason to get up out of bed and do the things you set out to do. Second you need the discipline to do things when you don't feel like doing them because let's face it we are lazy creatures. Having a STRONG reason to do things is rare, because it usually takes a specific event in our life to really trigger a cascade of feelings (someone close to you dies, you have a very powerful role model influence you, you have powerful experiences). So it is better to cultivate discipline for most people, while having a goal in the distance.
tl;dr just do it, even if you don't feel like it
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On February 08 2014 00:58 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 18:19 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Yes I could have a goal like this and I'd be hitting the gym doing compounds 3 times a week for 2 years. Which is what I have been doing. Except I already have a six pack so that's not my goal specifically.
This sounds like a subtle brag.
This specific blog is a BRAG-OK ZONE. If you've accomplished something awesome, its okay - nay - ENCOURAGED to talk about it. Fuck yeah.
In this blog, having a six pack and talking about how awesome it is is totally kosher.
Also, Slugg, you're talking about the same thing, stop arguing lol. Let's not get caught up on semantics.
yeah agreed.
On February 08 2014 00:43 jakethesnake wrote:
There are definitely parallels for individuals setting stretch goals, but the most important is that you break your stretch goal into a series of achievable short term targets that get progressively more difficult. Generally, I think that will be more helpful to more people than simply setting stretch goals alone.
You know what the really frustrating part is is that a lot of the people who are amazing at setting goals around my age do it subconsciously - they can't explain to me HOW they did it. So they say "do this" and then can't enunciate all the smaller things they did automatically.
That said, I should try the pushup exercise when I get home. My guess is that I would totally underestimate the amount I could do in 10 minutes and my goal would be so easy to achieve, but I should try it to really find out. Personal and organizational goals have been on my mind a lot recently, and this seems like a pretty interesting exercise!
Come back here and brag about it. I'll send SC2John a pm about it, ;D
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On February 08 2014 04:47 biology]major wrote:
This is a really mechanical way of thinking about it. In the end you need a solid reason for why you want a goal.
tl;dr just do it, even if you don't feel like it
Habitualization is an effective and necessary way to approach life. The word that jumps out to me from what you wrote is "desire." This post is very mechanical because I haven't figured out desire yet, so I don't want to speak on it
Do you know how to cultivate desire? Not leave it up to chance and the world around you? I believe its possible
I'm trying something, but this self-experiment runs for another two months so I can't answer about that yet.
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On February 08 2014 09:06 KurtistheTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 04:47 biology]major wrote:
This is a really mechanical way of thinking about it. In the end you need a solid reason for why you want a goal.
tl;dr just do it, even if you don't feel like it
Habitualization is an effective and necessary way to approach life. The word that jumps out to me from what you wrote is "desire." This post is very mechanical because I haven't figured out desire yet, so I don't want to speak on it Do you know how to cultivate desire? Not leave it up to chance and the world around you? I believe its possible I'm trying something, but this self-experiment runs for another two months so I can't answer about that yet.
Nope, I don't know how to just wake up one morning with a strong purpose, and I doubt very many people do and that is quite alright. I tend to believe discipline is more important, just because it can be trained by anyone at anytime. Passion/purpose/desire are more abstract and require some interesting circumstances imo.
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biology]major, you'll find this book extremely interesting because it goes into depth on how habits -- discipline -- work, and illuminates the systems on which they exist.
I've voraciously read hundreds of books since I got amazon prime in college, and this is one of the three "Gift-Tier" books I've come across, meaning I'd feel comfortable giving this to anyone as a gift and knowing I'd given them something of value.
One of my mistakes in my reading rampage is that I'm just now realizing acquiring knowledge is only the first step. In order for it to be of any use, it needs to be organized and directed to a specific end. This book is a rare combination of knowledge that's actionable as soon as you acquire it - your life will become better immediately as a result of having read it.
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Protip for 6pack abs. 1, just don't eat and lose fat.
You barely have to do any muscle targeting exercises because your core already gets pretty decent workout from just being a day to day walking around human. All those programs and shit you see on TV are probably just people with good genes and/or steroid use who don't really use the shit they are selling. So even if you do the protip, not everyone gets to have noticeable abs because the way genetics distribute your body fat.
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EPT
