|
People are quite fond of the idea that you "can't put a price on human life." Usually it's meant in the context of "any amount of spending, no matter how exorbitant, is justified if it saves one person." Let's put this useless old canard to bed already.
You quite clearly can put a price on human life. And, in fact, you MUST put a price on human life. It is immoral not to!
The reason for this is quite clear and quite simple: Our capacity for saving lives is limited, because our resources are limited. Every dollar spent on Bob means a dollar less for Jill. If the price of saving Bob means three other Jill's must die due to lack of resources, then it is immoral to save Bob. In other words, you must put a price on Bob's life since there is already a price on Jill's life.
Let's put this in more immediate terms. Bob requires a heart transplant. Let's say this costs $1,000,000. Ndugu, on the other hand, needs a cheeseburger, because he is starving to death. A cheeseburger costs $1. If we save Bob, it means not being able to save a quite many Ndugu's. If we say that Bob's life is priceless, it necessarily means that Ndugu's life is worthless. Now the contradiction becomes apparent.
Of course, life is even more complicated than this simplistic example. For one thing, we don't have a fixed "life saving charity fund." The greatest complicaton is in the fact that being alive is not the only good thing in the world. Quality of living and human suffering also counts for something. Suppose saving one Bob means a thousand people will not have clean water to drink. Suppose saving one Bob means a thousand people go without electricity, or without crucial medication, for a whole year. Or a whole decade. Where do we draw the line? I can't say. My only point is that a line must exist somewhere.
These are things which are impossibly difficult to try and quantify, but our goal here is not to solve economics. Our goal is to put this idiotic notion of "priceless human life" in the dustbin where it belongs. You MUST put a price on Bob's life. No one is priceless so long as other people with needs and desires are alive.
There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs.
 
|
|
|
I like that you're thinking about this. I hope it means you try to improve the state of affairs for humanity and other life.
|
I agree with you, and we've learned a little about it in class. It sounds as though you are familiar with Quality-adjusted life years (QALY) and how that can put a quantitative measure on the extension and healthiness of someone's life. It's kind of like extra time multiplied by the quality of that extra time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_adjusted_life_year
We can classify cost-effectiveness of medical interventions such as surgery and drug treatment by comparing cost per QALY. Some basic medicines like metformin for a diabetic or a statin for someone with high cholesterol is going to give a huge benefit for a very low $ cost. Where it can get dicey is with more complex things like metastatic cancers that have therapies that may extend life by several months for the price of $50,000+. I might be pulling this out of my ass but I think I remember hearing that around $50,000 per QALY is what can be used as a rough guideline for a 'cost-effective' intervention right now.
|
we also have to put into calculations to what extent Bob can help other people if we choose to help him? What if it was bill gates that needed the surgery? Helping bill would allow bill to help thousands of ndugu
|
Good that you've thought about this kind of stuff, but from the way you wrote this, you sound like you're trying to convince people. No offense to you, but this is very basic logic and I personally would be very angered if someone was so unbelievably stupid as to insist on the pricelessness of human life in the face of limited resources.
|
This is a seemingly complex question but it ultimately leads to the nearly universally accepted notion that "human life" has no inherent monetary value. Different lives are worth different amounts of money and their value is largely based on their ability to pay back (or to have paid) for the price of their salvation, so to speak. We're willing to shell out a little more to make ourselves feel like we're civilized. Citizens are worth more money than most non-citizens for any given rich country. The ones who contribute or will contribute to the economy, more so. And then there's the QALY thing mentioned previously.
I don't think you have to set a price as you say, though. The resources either get mobilized or they don't. Tens, if not hundreds of people could have been saved with the money I cost in healthcare, thanks to the government of Canada which likes me better than it likes foreigners.
Setting a price is useless because "the line" as you say is drawn not according to a calculation but according to a bunch of factors like social acceptability of the various options at hand, as well as a shitload of variables regarding the political climate. Fixing a price wouldn't necessarily make that much sense. I don't believe that questions like this can be administered by algorithms for the same reason that PCs can't do triage at the emergency room.
This whole state of affairs is very vile and disgusting but we all agree that there's no way around it.
Note: I'm not arguing that governments and NGO's should be spending their money irrationally. They should and and do take cost into account in their operations and that's fine. But I disagree that there should be a rigid cutoff. Different contexts call for different responses.
|
I definitely learned this concept in my economics courses. In Canada, the value of an arbitrary human life is roughly half a million. This goes up and down slightly from year to year. So for example, if reinforcing the railings on a bridge is prospected to save one life over its course, then if it costs $400,000, then the project should go ahead, but if it costs $600,000, then it's better to accept that casualty and use the money to save a life elsewhere. The half a million is only tailored towards the prevention of the unexpected death of a random person though. For every other circumstance, it's different, especially when it's no longer random and you are saving a specific person.
|
|
|
That's all fine and dandy until it's your life or someone you love. If a person's life is worth X amount, then what would be objectionable about exchanging money if you want them dead? After all, you've paid what their life is worth. Price is quantifiable but it doesn't inform us about worth, especially of a human life. I think you reject that a million Ndugu's are worth one Bob, yet that is all we get if we merely assign them prices.
|
|
|
It's one thing to use limited resources to save as many people as possible, and another thing to put a price on people's lives. You can't buy another person's life in the sense that it then belongs to you, or rather you should not be able to.
|
The expression "priceless human life" doesn't mean the life has infinitely high monetary value; it just represents the belief that it cannot be simply calculated down to some amount of money. To me, it is a correct assumption, because at any given moment, nobody has an idea what the person who lives / dies could / couldn't do during his extended lifespan to "payback" for it. (Putting aside idealism, humanism etc.)
|
Becomes even more relevant when you try and calculate how much it will cost to take care of our rapidly aging and breaking down (but not quite dying yet thanks to modern medicine) population. Often keeping them alive against their will to boot.
At least in the UK a quick google puts a care home at £25-30k / year depending on where you live. Factor in costs of getting a doctor or hospital visits (~£500 night, £100-200 of blood tests, £50+ X-ray(s) +/- £5000 for the inevitable hip replacement(s) + however much an ambulance costs). Gets expensive. Expecially when you consider you may just buy them another year of being unable to walk or go outside and shitting themselves in bed being fed by someone else.
For added controversy you can also factor in what people can offer people when doing these costs vs say "criminals" and "good honest folk".
|
Yes, some people use "you can't put a price on human life" to mean that "any amount of resources should be spent to save a life". But I think the vast majority are aware that this is an idealistic and impracticable idea. You are completely correct that there are no solutions, only compromises. The problem with making these compromises directly quantifiable via a set amount of money is that it's easy to abuse: "Sure we skimped on safety measures in our new factory and three people were killed when that tank exploded, but at a going rate of $750K for a human life - if we now donate $3M to a cancer charity, that makes up for it."
|
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time
|
United Kingdom14103 Posts
rofl
the price of a human life is obviously the value of their organs
|
On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time
Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives.
Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption.
|
edit: I just realized you were arguing against the absurd position that no sum of money is too great to save a person  . Okay on that point I agree completely, I think anarchy said it best
- - -
original post:
Certainly you need to put a price on a life when tradeoffs need to be made - you have to do your best to make the best decisions. But does this price *truly* reflect on the value of a person, or is it just an imperfect tool? If its the latter, and if the tool is highly imperfect, then in a sense you must admit that you can't really put a price on human life.
In all cases you need to evaluate what the "value" in life truly is. Is it value to society and what they do for others? So if a person lived on their own and didn't interact with others, would his life have little to no value? If there is an objective baseline to all of life, what exactly is it based on? I can't see any rigorous reasoning here. You can certainly assert that a person's value is their worth to society plus a certain baseline...but when it comes down to it, can you really justify your assertions? Its all very subjective, arbitrary, and quite mysterious.
Some people might argue that life can be created almost at any time without (too) much trouble making it very cheap and common, and so its not worth that much (we are just deterministic machines, billions of unique people can be created at any moment - so you're not that special). Others would intensely value that uniqueness, because of its uniqueness (even this is not very clear - why should we value uniqueness?). So the baseline is in question.
Its actually very hard to argue against the idea that altruists have more value than people who keep to themselves (in terms of their value to society). But I'm still not sure how much more valuable they are worth...because in general everyone is an altruist, we all contribute to society in some way except for the extreme hermits (even they have a role to play, however - some end up creating great works of literature or philosophical works - so practically this is hard to measure). So in this sense, even if you agree that a certain metric exists, its next to impossible to measure.
So in two senses I feel like you can't put a value on human life, both practically and theoretically. And to go back to the theoretical value of altruistic people over hedonists, I'm not very comfortable with the idea that being helpful to society makes you more valuable as a person. Theoretically, I feel like everyone has a right to make their own decisions free from any coercive requirement to assist others or going further, any implied favouritism; but practically I can see why, in reference to society, one would be 'worth' more. So then I would say that an altruist has no more intrinsic worth than a hedonist, but he/she does have more 'practical' worth. But then in that case, as argued above its very challenging to determine that practical worth. So then theoretically and practically I wouldn't say you can't put a price on life.
But we do have to do the best we can, so we take the accepted models for value however dubious and unclear they are, and use them to make decisions. But this is no indication that those models are valid.
|
Money is a piece of paper that you wave in front of people to make them do things for you. It's arbitrary and inherently meaningless. It has value only in the context of society.
It's an interesting discussion, though.
|
On November 25 2013 09:38 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives. Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption.
Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada....
Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service.......
Will tell you a 100 % real example here and kinda makes someone from the side of my mother's family look bad...
Someone from my mother side family millionaire ( got a big company and deal with government a lot )
What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada
It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery...
So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world
|
It's sad that some people die cause they can't afford a 50k surgery while there are people with billions.
|
On November 25 2013 22:38 Extenz wrote:
It's sad that some people die cause they can't afford a 50k surgery while there are people with billions.
That's freedom, apparently.
|
On November 25 2013 20:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Money is a piece of paper that you wave in front of people to make them do things for you. It's arbitrary and inherently meaningless. It has value only in the context of society.
It's an interesting discussion, though.
This conversation is very synthetic and it could be made more upfront by asking something like 'what is a reasonable quantity of resources which can be dispensed to save a human life'. Even in an utopian perfect egalitarian socialist wonderland where there is no currency but plenty of wealth, you can only dedicate a certain quantity of resources to saving lives.
|
At first I thought quebecman was an angry young lad who was very concerned about the injustice of todays society. then I found his blog. Now I'm not sure why he is here.
Edit: To add to the topic. I think this discussion is leading nowhere and suffers from a poor use of the word "value". One thing is the value of a human being in an abstract, ideal sense. The monetary value of something is very different from this. It's also not good to mix these two.
Furthermore money (should) reflects the amount of resources a society is able/willing to spend on a human to save his life.
|
If I'm worth more than 1 billion, I go on sale 
On November 25 2013 22:44 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 22:38 Extenz wrote:
It's sad that some people die cause they can't afford a 50k surgery while there are people with billions. That's freedom, apparently.
Na, that's capitalism. Basically the opposite of freedom.
|
On November 26 2013 01:02 Big J wrote:If I'm worth more than 1 billion, I go on sale Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 22:44 Talin wrote:On November 25 2013 22:38 Extenz wrote:
It's sad that some people die cause they can't afford a 50k surgery while there are people with billions. That's freedom, apparently. Na, that's capitalism. Basically the opposite of freedom.
So you come from a country with one of the highest living standards in the world. and then claim that you live in a system that's "the opposite of freedom". are you really that cynical?
|
On November 26 2013 01:18 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 01:02 Big J wrote:If I'm worth more than 1 billion, I go on sale On November 25 2013 22:44 Talin wrote:On November 25 2013 22:38 Extenz wrote:
It's sad that some people die cause they can't afford a 50k surgery while there are people with billions. That's freedom, apparently. Na, that's capitalism. Basically the opposite of freedom. So you come from a country with one of the highest living standards in the world. and then claim that you live in a system that's "the opposite of freedom". are you really that cynical?
Austria is not a capitalistic country.
More than half of our leading politicians since WW2 have been socialists or socialdemocrats, which means that in Austria you will get that 50k surgery, regardless of whether you can afford it or not.
|
On November 26 2013 01:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 01:18 Hryul wrote:On November 26 2013 01:02 Big J wrote:If I'm worth more than 1 billion, I go on sale On November 25 2013 22:44 Talin wrote:On November 25 2013 22:38 Extenz wrote:
It's sad that some people die cause they can't afford a 50k surgery while there are people with billions. That's freedom, apparently. Na, that's capitalism. Basically the opposite of freedom. So you come from a country with one of the highest living standards in the world. and then claim that you live in a system that's "the opposite of freedom". are you really that cynical? Austria is not a capitalistic country. More than half of our leading politicians since WW2 have been socialists or socialdemocrats, which means that in Austria you will get that 50k surgery, regardless of whether you can afford it or not.
All hail Bruno Kreisky. . .
Austria is a capitalistic country with a developed welfare system or "soziale Marktwirtschaft". The welfare system doesn't change the fact that the wealth of Austria is generated (mostly) by private corporations on a free market.
|
On November 25 2013 21:43 quebecman77 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 09:38 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives. Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption. Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada.... Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service....... Will tell you a 100 % real example here and kinda makes someone from the side of my mother's family look bad... Someone from my mother side family millionaire ( got a big company and deal with government a lot ) What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery... So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world
No offense but you might want to get better at English grammar. It is actually quite hard to understand you or get into a discussion with you because I need to actually decipher what you're saying.
|
On November 26 2013 07:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 21:43 quebecman77 wrote:On November 25 2013 09:38 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives. Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption. Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada.... Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service....... Will tell you a 100 % real example here and kinda makes someone from the side of my mother's family look bad... Someone from my mother side family millionaire ( got a big company and deal with government a lot ) What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery... So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world No offense but you might want to get better at English grammar. It is actually quite hard to understand you or get into a discussion with you because I need to actually decipher what you're saying.
It's true that his English could get quite a bit better, but in his defense, if you're having trouble reading his perfectly legible post, I question your cognitive capabilities more so than I question his ability to be understood.
|
On November 26 2013 09:47 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 07:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 25 2013 21:43 quebecman77 wrote:On November 25 2013 09:38 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives. Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption. Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada.... Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service....... Will tell you a 100 % real example here and kinda makes someone from the side of my mother's family look bad... Someone from my mother side family millionaire ( got a big company and deal with government a lot ) What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery... So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world No offense but you might want to get better at English grammar. It is actually quite hard to understand you or get into a discussion with you because I need to actually decipher what you're saying. It's true that his English could get quite a bit better, but in his defense, if you're having trouble reading his perfectly legible post, I question your cognitive capabilities more so than I question his ability to be understood.
Perhaps I chose my words poorly. I meant better phrasing, punctuation and just writing skills in general. All those unnecessary paragraphs, spaces, ...'s and overall weird phrasing really hurt my ability to read into what he's saying.
When I debate with somebody, I pay a lot of attention to their phrasing. On the internet, where there's no inflection, it's really all I have to find out crucial minutiae about his emotions. Checking these minutiae also gives me the ability to do things like make sure that yes, someone actually is that stupid. Confirming that is important because I always adhere to the principle of charity.
Take, for instance, this:
Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada....
Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service.......
So because a doctor chooses the job that pays more, he is a greedy bastard who doesn't give a shit about people's lives? Or is he saying that people are going untreated because there aren't enough doctors to treat everyone simultaneously and doctors aren't willing to go out to the middle of Assfuck, Canada to treat somebody for free, provided the doctors even knew about that person?
Also, what kinds of "favor"? "Service"? What does that even mean? Is he talking about doctors being extra-polite to some rich dude? Why does that make all doctors corrupt assholes?
I have no idea what to read into this paragraph because principle of charity, so I turn over what he said in my head again and again, trying to figure out a way he sounds smart until I have no idea what he really means. Way too many things he could mean and a ton of them are just too stupid for me to consider without direct confirmation on his part, while others are just abstractions.
Also this bit:
What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada
It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery...
So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world
He has the jaw-dropping sample size of one, cited from personal experience. Principle of charity dictates that I make certain he is intentionally arguing his position this poorly, which I find difficult without getting those minutiae from his phrasing or asking him directly.
|
On November 26 2013 12:03 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
So basically, because a doctor chooses the job that pays more, he is a greedy bastard who doesn't give a shit about people's lives? Or is he saying that people are going untreated because, shocker, there aren't enough doctors to treat everyone simultaneously and doctors aren't willing to go out to the middle of Assfuck, Canada to treat somebody for free, provided the doctors even knew about that person?
You're dealing with his argument here. Also you're the first one who used the word "corruption". You seem to be pretty optimistic about this whole thing but I want to say that you can be sure that an American billionaire can jump to the front of the waiting list to get a "legal" heart transplant in the United States.
About his argument about how we have problems with doctors in Canada, he means that doctors are greedy because many of them get their free education in Canada and then move to the US to practice because it's more lucrative, completely disregarding the fact that being a doctor in Canada is probably more conductive to saving lives. The comprehension issue here isn't so much about his English, the problem is that he kind of assumed that the reader knew about this problem for whatever reason.
Also, what kinds of "favor"? "Service"? What the hell does that even mean? Is he talking about doctors being extra-polite to some rich dude? Remind me why that makes all doctors money-grubbing, soulless, corrupt assholes.
I have no idea what to read into this paragraph because I try to have faith in people, so I turn over what he said in my head again and again, trying to figure out a way he sounds smart until I have no idea what he really means. Way too many things he could mean and a ton of them are just too stupid for me to consider without direct confirmation on his part.
I don't know why he used the word "favor" but basically rich people have more access to better, more reputable doctors, more quickly.
He has the jaw-dropping sample size of fucking ONE. In times like this, checking the phrasing allows me to assure myself that yes, he is accusing tens of thousands of people, in an industry that attracts people who want to save lives, of being corrupt to the point of being downright evil.
I want to say once again that you were the one who first used the word "corrupt" when he talked about a perfectly normal and accepted behavior. It's not widespread corruption that he's talking about, it's this very real state of affairs where we occidentals are very individualistic and driven by our personal ambitions - and as such, the collective sometimes suffers. Is it corruption when the rich people have access to better life-saving services? Not really. It's just a feature of capitalism.
But the fact that gross systemic social inequalities are being confused for corruption here goes to show that many of us at least subconsciously realize that it's profoundly immoral in some ways.
Also his "sample size" as you put it is irrelevant. It's not a study he was writing, he was giving an example. Most of us Canadians have to wait in line for non-critical surgery. It takes years to get hip replacement for people who can't even walk because them old fucks ain't gonna die for the pain and from not being able to walk right. On the other hand, if they have money, they can haul ass over to the US and buy healthcare, possibly from a Canadian doctor who'd rather treat rich people in the US than EVERYONE in Canada. And if that doctor just stayed in Canada, it would speed up the process for the backlog of poor saps who's quality of life doesn't matter. That's understandably undesirable though, because like we said, personal ambitions, etc.
|
On November 25 2013 21:43 quebecman77 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 09:38 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives. Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption. Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada.... Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service....... Will tell you a 100 % real example here and kinda makes someone from the side of my mother's family look bad... Someone from my mother side family millionaire ( got a big company and deal with government a lot ) What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery... So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world
I just want to throw in that maybe your post would have some validity and value relative to the discussion if it wasn't based off an anecdote. Yes the majority of doctors don't want to go and work in Africa for the rest of their life because they have debt from their education (Generally several hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt), they also have families, they've also worked hard and in all honesty deserve the money they earn and probably a lot more for the amount of effort they have to put in and their ridiculously long hours. I mean the very fact that you insist that doctors should just up and bail to a country that might need them more, even at the cost of their significant others, their children, their parents etc... Is honestly appalling and it adequately paints a picture of the bias you hold for the situation.
|
On November 25 2013 21:43 quebecman77 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 09:38 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives. Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption. Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada.... Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service....... Will tell you a 100 % real example here and kinda makes someone from the side of my mother's family look bad... Someone from my mother side family millionaire ( got a big company and deal with government a lot ) What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery... So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world
In the U.S. Medical school is around 200k for the 4 years of education. Then you work for another 4-5 years making very low pay, 40-60k. So after those 4 -5 years you earn 200k, and then you are back to 0. So 10 years of training full time AFTER college to have a net worth of 0 (realistically it will be in the negative because of living expenses). In the end doctors are not some saints that exist for the sole purpose of the betterment of humanity. They are people just like anyone else, and will do what is in their best interests.
|
On November 26 2013 21:33 SomethingWitty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 21:43 quebecman77 wrote:On November 25 2013 09:38 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives. Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption. Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada.... Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service....... Will tell you a 100 % real example here and kinda makes someone from the side of my mother's family look bad... Someone from my mother side family millionaire ( got a big company and deal with government a lot ) What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery... So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world I just want to throw in that maybe your post would have some validity and value relative to the discussion if it wasn't based off an anecdote. Yes the majority of doctors don't want to go and work in Africa for the rest of their life because they have debt from their education (Generally several hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt), they also have families, they've also worked hard and in all honesty deserve the money they earn and probably a lot more for the amount of effort they have to put in and their ridiculously long hours. I mean the very fact that you insist that doctors should just up and bail to a country that might need them more, even at the cost of their significant others, their children, their parents etc... Is honestly appalling and it adequately paints a picture of the bias you hold for the situation.
I don't understand what it is that you people don't get. His post certainly isn't the best but his anecdote is meant to be an example for something that us Canadians know about - it's a very real problem that you've heard about if you've even a little bit aware of Canadian politics and you don't seem to be. I'd say that as a Canadian, you have to be living under a rock to question the guy's motives. Canada's short on doctors and non-critical surgeries take a long time to get in the public system, largely because doctors, formed largely in the heavily subsidized Canadian education system, leave our country to go practice elsewhere. In some cases, it also takes a really long time to get treatment or surgery for critical conditions. Getting a consultation with a specialist, just a consultation, can take a long time, unless you're rushed in covered in blood. The problem has nothing to do with Africa. The problem, among other things, is that doctors leave Canada to make more money somewhere else. It's not corruption, it's plain old greed, but this pertains to the conversation at hand.
People here in Canada have to deal with worse service because we pay to educate doctors who then promptly live with the expertise that we gave them. His fucking post didn't base itself off an anecdote, it based itself on the very real fact that there are long-assed waiting lists. He then used an example to explain what kind of problem this can cause for a person that's not a millionaire.
|
On November 27 2013 00:24 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 21:33 SomethingWitty wrote:On November 25 2013 21:43 quebecman77 wrote:On November 25 2013 09:38 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives. Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption. Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada.... Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service....... Will tell you a 100 % real example here and kinda makes someone from the side of my mother's family look bad... Someone from my mother side family millionaire ( got a big company and deal with government a lot ) What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery... So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world I just want to throw in that maybe your post would have some validity and value relative to the discussion if it wasn't based off an anecdote. Yes the majority of doctors don't want to go and work in Africa for the rest of their life because they have debt from their education (Generally several hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt), they also have families, they've also worked hard and in all honesty deserve the money they earn and probably a lot more for the amount of effort they have to put in and their ridiculously long hours. I mean the very fact that you insist that doctors should just up and bail to a country that might need them more, even at the cost of their significant others, their children, their parents etc... Is honestly appalling and it adequately paints a picture of the bias you hold for the situation. I don't understand what it is that you people don't get. His post certainly isn't the best but his anecdote is meant to be an example for something that us Canadians know about - it's a very real problem that you've heard about if you've even a little bit aware of Canadian politics and you don't seem to be. I'd say that as a Canadian, you have to be living under a rock to question the guy's motives. Canada's short on doctors and non-critical surgeries take a long time to get in the public system, largely because doctors, formed largely in the heavily subsidized Canadian education system, leave our country to go practice elsewhere. In some cases, it also takes a really long time to get treatment or surgery for critical conditions. Getting a consultation with a specialist, just a consultation, can take a long time, unless you're rushed in covered in blood. The problem has nothing to do with Africa. The problem, among other things, is that doctors leave Canada to make more money somewhere else. It's not corruption, it's plain old greed, but this pertains to the conversation at hand. People here in Canada have to deal with worse service because we pay to educate doctors who then promptly live with the expertise that we gave them. His fucking post didn't base itself off an anecdote, it based itself on the very real fact that there are long-assed waiting lists. He then used an example to explain what kind of problem this can cause for a person that's not a millionaire.
If you thought being a doctor in the U.S is hard, Canada is much more difficult. They leave Canada to practice elsewhere, because they can actually try and get jobs in different countries.
|
On November 27 2013 01:01 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 00:24 Djzapz wrote:On November 26 2013 21:33 SomethingWitty wrote:On November 25 2013 21:43 quebecman77 wrote:On November 25 2013 09:38 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On November 25 2013 01:24 quebecman77 wrote:
This work already likes that now ? Everyone got a price somewhere , the base of everything = money
if we do something like some people here would love to see, it will get EVEN WORST, don't think people will pick the guy who can eat for 5 years over the guy who got 6 million dollars for the same thing, that well know they pick the guy who got the most money and poor people can just go fuck themselves....
So think about who you are helping here while thinking about putting a price on human, because we kinda got that anyway...this goes more into a moral discussion after....
Little example how this work right now : Bob got 1 million dollars and work for a big corporation, he someone important and he needs a heart transplant, mike a normal worker and it would cost 20 times less for him to get the heart , they both need it,
Bob got the heart ( maybe he pays, while mike dies ), that's how this work right now !!
That's noble of some of you to think people would pick the poor guy who need it 20x more and it would cost 20x less for him to get it... But this doesn't work like that !!!
That's just the same for everything, when you need to go see a doctor the guy with the most money got the service
( Or fames, people who got money got shortcuts for everything ) while the other ''normal guy'' cant even see a doctor !!
the society we live in today rotten to the cores, it would need alot more change and if people start to do what you guys here want it will only get worst, so think some time Yes, the first world is very corrupt today. No, you can't use money to get white-market organs. No, doctors are not corrupt and money-obsessed. Please use sources when making wild and exotic claims about universal corruption in an industry that people join to save lives. Oh, and recognizing that a human life has a finite value does not cause corruption. Many doctors sure are money-obsessed, how you explain many of them would be really needed in some place but don't want to go because... They would get paid less ? That's a problem we get everywhere in Canada.... Agree you probably can't get organs, but what about ''favor'' and service....... Will tell you a 100 % real example here and kinda makes someone from the side of my mother's family look bad... Someone from my mother side family millionaire ( got a big company and deal with government a lot ) What you think have happen when he need a back surgery because it was causing him pain ? Usually here in Canada It takes about 4-5 YEAR to get or see a doctor for something like that.... Him ? He got the surgery after 4 months with a ''public'' Doctor who is supposed to be the best in Canada for doing this kind of surgery... So you think that's fair ? You live in a sweet world if you think my first post full of ''exotic claims'' about universal corruption.... That's just the real world I just want to throw in that maybe your post would have some validity and value relative to the discussion if it wasn't based off an anecdote. Yes the majority of doctors don't want to go and work in Africa for the rest of their life because they have debt from their education (Generally several hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt), they also have families, they've also worked hard and in all honesty deserve the money they earn and probably a lot more for the amount of effort they have to put in and their ridiculously long hours. I mean the very fact that you insist that doctors should just up and bail to a country that might need them more, even at the cost of their significant others, their children, their parents etc... Is honestly appalling and it adequately paints a picture of the bias you hold for the situation. I don't understand what it is that you people don't get. His post certainly isn't the best but his anecdote is meant to be an example for something that us Canadians know about - it's a very real problem that you've heard about if you've even a little bit aware of Canadian politics and you don't seem to be. I'd say that as a Canadian, you have to be living under a rock to question the guy's motives. Canada's short on doctors and non-critical surgeries take a long time to get in the public system, largely because doctors, formed largely in the heavily subsidized Canadian education system, leave our country to go practice elsewhere. In some cases, it also takes a really long time to get treatment or surgery for critical conditions. Getting a consultation with a specialist, just a consultation, can take a long time, unless you're rushed in covered in blood. The problem has nothing to do with Africa. The problem, among other things, is that doctors leave Canada to make more money somewhere else. It's not corruption, it's plain old greed, but this pertains to the conversation at hand. People here in Canada have to deal with worse service because we pay to educate doctors who then promptly live with the expertise that we gave them. His fucking post didn't base itself off an anecdote, it based itself on the very real fact that there are long-assed waiting lists. He then used an example to explain what kind of problem this can cause for a person that's not a millionaire. If you thought being a doctor in the U.S is hard, Canada is much more difficult. They leave Canada to practice elsewhere, because they can actually try and get jobs in different countries.
Some do, people from certain specialties, but not all of them. Can't blame the ones who can't find work here. I wouldn't blame any of them actually. But there are still many doctors who quit their job here to go make more money elsewhere.
There's clearly a political problem at play also. But the point is that people are driven by their own interests, which is perfectly normal but like I said, it pertains to the thread's topic. The human life has a certain value, and this is best displayed by the fact that some of the people who are in the best position to save lives, doctors, will go save lives where there's money.
I don't think it's fair to blame them, it's just how it is. Still, we have grounds to wonder if this really is the way to go. We believe these crazy inequalities to be perfectly normal, and to an extent they're unavoidable, but the sheer scale of the inequalities should be a concern.
|
It's arbitrary and inherently meaningless.
Like everything else no exceptions. It's kinda the definition of value
|
On November 25 2013 22:38 Extenz wrote:
It's sad that some people die cause they can't afford a 50k surgery while there are people with billions.
Many people die cause they have no fresh water, basic health care, food, which wouldn't cost that much by westerner standards. And yet we spend our money on ice cream, cinema, videogames and stuff as opposed to saving lives in Africa. And in this culture of hypocrisy we still pretend human life is priceless, not many have guts to say their Xbox is more valuable to them than a saved life of some human they don't personally know or care about. Those few who kinda notice hypocrisy tend to justify themselves talking BS about how charity organizations are actually corrupt and don't help third world at all, while being too lazy to even do a real research on that, in order to save those "priceless" lives that are actually worth less than a new XBox.
So don't blame people with billions, they usually do a lot for the well being of others compared to your regular person. Everyone could do so much more to save lives if we really cared. But we don't, unless the dying person is dying right in front of our eyes, in which case we feel bad seeing them and do what we can to save them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/luhK5bq.gif)
