I live in Australia and we recently voted for the biggest joke of all time to be our Prime Minister.
In his short period as leader he has basically obliterated anything resembling science and pushed though massive tax cuts to millionaires. I cannot even begin to list the shit that I don't like that he stands for and is doing because it would take too long. He is a super conservative Christian and is completely incompetent at speaking and communicating. The worst thing is he is actually popular. Many of my friends are talking up this cretin and his ridiculous policies.
So basically I want to move country. Somewhere secular and non-violent with decent employment and non-harsh weather. Somewhere active and progressive. Not worried about languages I can learn them. Danes, Belgians, Germans, Czechs etc, what do you like about where you live?
Denmark here. We used to have mad welfare, free education, sensible public discourse, all those things. But then we had a financial crisis and now everything's going to shit. An example?
Politicians decide we need more cheap housing for young people. Entrepeneurs build them, except they are too expensive for someone on public student money to pay for. Result: students living with their parents with loads of empty apartments right next door.
That sucks. It was only when I started researching countries that I realised how hard the financial crisis hit other countries. Was looking at Iceland but their whole banking system collapsed so I wasn't sure about it being a viable option.
Well in germany, there are many places that would fit your description, as well as some that would not, a tleast in some aspects. Are you a student, or do you need to find a job in certain field after moving? Also, why not new zealand or canada ? xD
On November 08 2013 19:45 Mafe wrote: Well in germany, there are many places that would fit your description, as well as some that would not, a tleast in some aspects. Are you a student, or do you need to find a job in certain field after moving? Also, why not new zealand or canada ? xD
I know a lot about new zealand and canada and a lot less about most European countries so that's why I ask. Got family in Vancouver and Wellington. They are both options but I would have to put up with rugby and ice hockey respectively XD
I am about to finish a degree in accounting and finance but I'm not super committed to using it. Nothing wrong with working as a laborer or in a bar or something instead it's about happiness not dollars. Kinda general employment prospects were what I was after
Well, Europe has been going down the drain for the last decade(s) as well.
On November 08 2013 19:44 DropBear wrote: That sucks. It was only when I started researching countries that I realised how hard the financial crisis hit other countries. Was looking at Iceland but their whole banking system collapsed so I wasn't sure about it being a viable option.
Can people still get jobs in Denmark?
I don't know about Denmark, but considering the scandinavian countries usually fare better than any other country the job market should be pretty stable over there, too. In Germany lots of firms are desperately searching for workers/apprentices. In general the financial crisis didn't affect much over here, people are still rich as ever only the distribution of wealth changed for the worse. And politics as well. There's been a huge rise of nationalists, though not as much in Germany.
On November 08 2013 19:44 DropBear wrote: That sucks. It was only when I started researching countries that I realised how hard the financial crisis hit other countries. Was looking at Iceland but their whole banking system collapsed so I wasn't sure about it being a viable option.
Can people still get jobs in Denmark?
Looking at http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/unemployment-rate unemployment rate in Denmark is lower than most countries in Europe. Graduate unemployment is relatively high though, but I think you'll be able to find something with a degree in finance & accounting. Most Danes speak perfect English, and many firms even have English as their internal language so not being able to speak Danish should not be an issue. I know several foreigners living in Denmark, and all of them have managed do to just fine without speaking a word of our language.
Looking at your criteria "Somewhere secular and non-violent with decent employment and non-harsh weather. Somewhere active and progressive.", I'd say Denmark fits pretty well. Denmark is among the least religious countries in the world with only 18% practicing religion actively (probably primarily Muslim immigrants), and low crime rates ( http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1100.html#crime ). The climate is temperate, with temperatures typically ranging from -10 to 30 degrees celcius.
I haven't looked much at jobs in Denmark from an international perspective, but apparently there's a government website aimed at helping foreigners finding jobs in Denmark: https://www.workindenmark.dk/ . I don't know if it will be of any use to you, but it couldn't hurt to link it
Edit: Of course, there are downsides to living in Denmark as well. Mainly the fact that with any decent income you'll end up paying 50+% of your income in taxes. Everything is pretty expensive on top of that, especially cars which are easily ~3 times as expensive as in other countries due to the sales tax of 180%.
I can reassure you with my econ major and a lot of newspaper reading that unless the PM really mess it up big time, Australia economy will do just as well if not better than EU zone and US.
The biggest reason why Aus didn't get hit as hard by the financial crisis is not just because your banking sector was safer than the US, it is also because China economy has boomed a lot and imported a lot of minerals from Australia, as well as education. The growth in Australia was pretty much sustained by the mining industries and recently the education industry. This is why recently when China's demand for the minerals has decreased, Australia economy had been hit slightly.
The intra Asia zone trading will be the key for the next 50 years development to come. One reason why Asia recovered well is also because the intra zone trading is operating well. It really high lights the potential of this market when it starts to get more developed. Australia will benefit a lot by just being close to the zone.
Of cause right now there are still a lot of concern, India with the poor inflation management, Japan with the more aggressive approach in politics raising more tension in the region, China has its politics and economy reform that have yet to see it happening.
But imo, these issues are more or less to be expected from a developing countries, difficult to control inflation, political issues, economy reform timing etc. While on the other hand, the EU zone is not functioning as we would like it to be, with monetary policy tied up by the euros etc, the US economy should recover if only the debt is still purchased etc but at the end, the debt has to be solved. These problems feel more structural and imo much harder to solve.
You could scratch off all countries around germany except germany itself i think. Not that i know a lot about it (Netherlands here by the way) but here the economic crisis made people selfish bastards.
Everyone kicks everybody else down to get some more themselves. Noone accepts hurting to their own money anymore if it is to save others who are having a harder time. Many friends of mine are unemployed, i'm doing a healthcare study though so i'll probably be fine but heard that even in that (somehow steady) sector in the Netherlands it's hard to find work.
I feel like my country is being flooded by populist people who blame everything on everyone but themselves. So my advice to you would be, your 5 years late, now its turning to be a shithole ^^ Greetings and good luck. By the way a mate of mine is backpacking in australia right now, and he says your country is awesome, so you should really doubt leaving if i were you hahaha
On November 08 2013 19:28 DropBear wrote: I live in Australia and we recently voted for the biggest joke of all time to be our Prime Minister.
In his short period as leader he has basically obliterated anything resembling science and pushed though massive tax cuts to millionaires. I cannot even begin to list the shit that I don't like that he stands for and is doing because it would take too long. He is a super conservative Christian and is completely incompetent at speaking and communicating. The worst thing is he is actually popular. Many of my friends are talking up this cretin and his ridiculous policies.
So basically I want to move country. Somewhere secular and non-violent with decent employment and non-harsh weather. Somewhere active and progressive. Not worried about languages I can learn them. Danes, Belgians, Germans, Czechs etc, what do you like about where you live?
Abbots kinda retarded but I don't think he's country moving bad. At least wait til he joins USA in another big stupid war.
ETisME and HooiFork we just today announced that government debt will be doubled, while simultaneously announcing tax cuts to people earning over $100,000 i.e. rich people. However the majority of my issues with this government are on principle. Climate change denial, our ludicrous immigration policy, denial of rights to basically everyone except middle aged white males, increasing policy based on religion.
Plus its just the general feel of the place. It doesn't feel like a nice place anymore.
On November 08 2013 20:46 iaguz wrote: Abbots kinda retarded but I don't think he's country moving bad. At least wait til he joins USA in another big stupid war.
I can see us at war with indonesia far before the USA gets us involved in anything. He's offending them so much already.
On November 08 2013 20:53 DropBear wrote: thanks MentalGNT!
ETisME and HooiFork we just today announced that government debt will be doubled, while simultaneously announcing tax cuts to people earning over $100,000 i.e. rich people. However the majority of my issues with this government are on principle. Climate change denial, our ludicrous immigration policy, denial of rights to basically everyone except middle aged white males, increasing policy based on religion.
Plus its just the general feel of the place. It doesn't feel like a nice place anymore.
On November 08 2013 20:46 iaguz wrote: Abbots kinda retarded but I don't think he's country moving bad. At least wait til he joins USA in another big stupid war.
I can see us at war with indonesia far before the USA gets us involved in anything. He's offending them so much already.
You live in a beautiful country and you shouldn't let politics make you think otherwise. No matter how stupid your government is or the people who vote for it the wise thing to do is to only look at how much it directly affects your own everyday life. If you wanted to move to have a new life experience, meet new people and learn from a different culture that would be a great idea, but moving because stupid people piss you off is not the right thing to do. Because they are everywhere.
Sorry to tell you this but Europe is rapidly going to shit, and Scandinavian countries legendary for their quality of life are getting overflooded by immigrants which also isn't good.
I guess we'll just have to weather this global mess.
On November 08 2013 20:53 DropBear wrote: thanks MentalGNT!
ETisME and HooiFork we just today announced that government debt will be doubled, while simultaneously announcing tax cuts to people earning over $100,000 i.e. rich people. However the majority of my issues with this government are on principle. Climate change denial, our ludicrous immigration policy, denial of rights to basically everyone except middle aged white males, increasing policy based on religion.
Plus its just the general feel of the place. It doesn't feel like a nice place anymore.
On November 08 2013 20:46 iaguz wrote: Abbots kinda retarded but I don't think he's country moving bad. At least wait til he joins USA in another big stupid war.
I can see us at war with indonesia far before the USA gets us involved in anything. He's offending them so much already.
debt going double doesn't mean it is a bad thing. Debt can be a good sign as well, more investment projects to help stimulate the economy for example. I haven't really looked into Aus economy since I graduated from Melbourne a while ago but it really depends on the debt structure. Tax cut is also arguable. A high tax rate would push away the rich and off they go to other countries, as well as the cost of maintaining the tax, finding and fixing tax loop holes etc.
As far as I know, Australia is one of the better countries when you are talking about environment awareness. Trust me, I had been studying from UK, Aus and Hong Kong and AUS is pretty much the only one where people really buy hybrids and also the recycling is more efficient.
As for immigration policy, this one is tough. Honestly it is better than what Hong Kong has now (which is importing lots of people from China, but with way too little screening and so our aim was to increase our productivity has turned into an increase in welfare burdens and social capacity) Denial of rights, I think you mean racism? Yes I think this is true because on my job search in Aus, I read researches that shows applications of non-english name candidates are like 70% less likely to be looked at But this will change eventually I think, as more immigration coming in.
Yea, the US one is just horrible. Honestly imo, I think US is a bit scared and confused, the economy isn't looking all that good (in my analysis anyway) and one of the only way to fix this, is to hope China doing well and keep buying their bonds. In terms of PR, they are pretty much worse than ever, with issues like snowden, wikileaks, gov shut down etc. Then they almost got themselves in war again in Syria and the US sees that not a lot of countries open support them anymore and didn't look good from its own citizens either.
Of cause these are all theories, but I am sure a lot of people have the same opinion with me, the power of US is no longer what it once was and it does seem like they are a bit confused on how to regain that power
Australia sounds like a awesome country to me, especially the nature. Politics are equally bad everywhere... well maybe worse in countries that are corrupt.
ETisME the environment awareness used to be good until this guy got elected a couple of months ago. In a short time:
- Climate commission abolished - No Australian representative at world climate talks - National sustainability council abolished - Beginning of carbon tax being repealed - Drastic reduction in environmental screening for potential mining projects - Approval for mining in the Great Barrier Reef
On November 08 2013 22:14 DropBear wrote: Cheers for the link Zatic!
ETisME the environment awareness used to be good until this guy got elected a couple of months ago. In a short time:
- Climate commission abolished - No Australian representative at world climate talks - National sustainability council abolished - Beginning of carbon tax being repealed - Drastic reduction in environmental screening for potential mining projects - Approval for mining in the Great Barrier Reef
I did read about mining industry in Australia is taking a big hit and these costings are making their exports not as profitable as well as China's demand is falling in general? It's complicated. Australia used to hold such a high standard, but it does come with a cost. The total mining industry contributes ~19% of the GDP and so it's not too unreasonable that they are willing to let the restrictions off to maintain a strong economy.
Afterall, if people are losing jobs, it will be worse (for the government).
We got an even bigger joke voted as Prime Minister, so don't even fly over Turkey in a plane because you can get arrested for sitting next to someone of opposite gender in that particular plane.
If the climate shouldn't be too cold/hot, I'd go to germany, since it's a less conservative, more meaningful version of Austria with better football. (though worse beer... if you come for the beer, just go to the czech republic to begin with; and in germany, stay close to the Austria/Czech borders) And I think it's better than most other middle European countries in germany, economically/politcally speaking. Though I'm not too sure about France... but it's France, you don't want the whole world making jokes about you eating snails and frogs.
But seriously, germany has lots of options, and a great culture/history. Even the dark side of germany's history actually has a great effect on today's germany: it's one of the most restrictive countries in the world when it comes to dealing with politcally unacceptable parties/opinions.
On November 08 2013 23:37 TheFish7 wrote: Come to America! We don't have any tax breaks for millionaires, crazy religious zealots, or gutted science funding!
Today is opposite day right?
:D America might actually be the exact opposite of what OP is looking for, but still worth moving there cause more freedom = more happiness ;-)
On November 08 2013 19:28 DropBear wrote: I live in Australia and we recently voted for the biggest joke of all time to be our Prime Minister.
In his short period as leader he has basically obliterated anything resembling science and pushed though massive tax cuts to millionaires. I cannot even begin to list the shit that I don't like that he stands for and is doing because it would take too long. He is a super conservative Christian and is completely incompetent at speaking and communicating. The worst thing is he is actually popular. Many of my friends are talking up this cretin and his ridiculous policies.
So basically I want to move country. Somewhere secular and non-violent with decent employment and non-harsh weather. Somewhere active and progressive. Not worried about languages I can learn them. Danes, Belgians, Germans, Czechs etc, what do you like about where you live?
Do you have some sources for your claims about Tony Abbott? I always take opportunities like this to get educated about international politics, but there doesn't seem to be too many good sources I can get off the internet on this guy. No problem if you can't provide sources, but it would be welcome if you could toss some my way.
Wow Tony Abbot sounds like our Prime Minister but 100x worse. Its funny how conservatives think alike. Our PM started silencing scientists too, undoing environmental regulations and basically becoming a mouthpiece for pure corporate power. Literally the only reason our PM goes abroad for is to secure economic deals to make it easier to do business. Not to mention the backwards decision of making our prison system more like the US which every expert and every study says is a bad idea.
Oh yeah and then there's pushing for the oil sands as much as possible while we're in the midst of a global climate crisis. Although our environment minister makes a fair point that Canada still only contributes 2% as a whole to global CO2 emissions, its just sad that our leadership seems focused on sending exactly the wrong message to the global community on this issue. I feel for you...in general it seems like the Earth is kind of screwed though regardless who was elected. It seems like its the decade of the conservatives in every country except the US, although you could argue Obama is basically a conservative compared to what liberalism used to be in that country.
On November 09 2013 07:08 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Do you have some sources for your claims about Tony Abbott? I always take opportunities like this to get educated about international politics, but there doesn't seem to be too many good sources I can get off the internet on this guy. No problem if you can't provide sources, but it would be welcome if you could toss some my way.
The website of his political party. Particularly their official news releases. It's not really hidden.
This is because he almost never speaks in public. He's totally incompetent.
Thanks for all these responses guys! Keep em coming!
On November 09 2013 07:08 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Do you have some sources for your claims about Tony Abbott? I always take opportunities like this to get educated about international politics, but there doesn't seem to be too many good sources I can get off the internet on this guy. No problem if you can't provide sources, but it would be welcome if you could toss some my way.
The website of his political party. Particularly their official news releases. It's not really hidden.
I agree with Cloud when it comes to your reason(s) for leaving. But since you're probably pretty young still, if you want to give it a shot what the heck, go for it. Here's Hotbid's blog about moving from NY to Utrecht/Netherlands (interesting stuff about the Netherlands but the moral of the story is German bread owns).
On November 09 2013 18:44 Monsen wrote: I agree with Cloud when it comes to your reason(s) for leaving. But since you're probably pretty young still, if you want to give it a shot what the heck, go for it. Here's Hotbid's blog about moving from NY to Utrecht/Netherlands (interesting stuff about the Netherlands but the moral of the story is German bread owns).
Any European bread owns in my experience. I haven't been in the US but I hear it's pretty terrible there, and trust me, it's downright awful in Japan and Korea.
Well Norway got a new awesome prime minister and ruling partys that made taxcuts for the rich while fucking students and the elderly over. Oh and they decreased the taxation for buying luxury cars but increased it for normal cars and hybrids. Then they removed government support for schools and kindergardens to buy fruit to the children, made a law that doctors can refuse to perform abortions if they don't "believe" in abortion. Pretty much what everyone with half a brain knew in the election, the rich get richer with the right partys but no, people believed their bullshit about "being the new workers party" and the first things they do while in office pretty much 100% is for the rich only.
Me and the fiance make slightly above the limit for tax cuts so we get like 300 euros more a year yay! Totally worth not having children getting fruit in school and letting students study fulltime and work fulltime to stay afloat!
On November 09 2013 19:21 unkkz wrote: Well Norway got a new awesome prime minister and ruling partys that made taxcuts for the rich while fucking students and the elderly over. Oh and they decreased the taxation for buying luxury cars but increased it for normal cars and hybrids. Then they removed government support for schools and kindergardens to buy fruit to the children, made a law that doctors can refuse to perform abortions if they don't "believe" in abortion. Pretty much what everyone with half a brain knew in the election, the rich get richer with the right partys but no, people believed their bullshit about "being the new workers party" and the first things they do while in office pretty much 100% is for the rich only.
Me and the fiance make slightly above the limit for tax cuts so we get like 300 euros more a year yay! Totally worth not having children getting fruit in school and letting students study fulltime and work fulltime to stay afloat!
That said, Norway is still probably close to as good as it gets. I think the swedish tax level might be better, but then again, think about the employment in Norway which is in a far better state in Norway than Sweden. Social support during education is also far higher than in Sweden, which blew my mind when I heard it.
Why not another country that is like Germany but in richer? Like Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark? I am pretty sure life in every single one of those countries is better on average.
On November 09 2013 19:21 unkkz wrote: Well Norway got a new awesome prime minister and ruling partys that made taxcuts for the rich while fucking students and the elderly over. Oh and they decreased the taxation for buying luxury cars but increased it for normal cars and hybrids. Then they removed government support for schools and kindergardens to buy fruit to the children, made a law that doctors can refuse to perform abortions if they don't "believe" in abortion. Pretty much what everyone with half a brain knew in the election, the rich get richer with the right partys but no, people believed their bullshit about "being the new workers party" and the first things they do while in office pretty much 100% is for the rich only.
Me and the fiance make slightly above the limit for tax cuts so we get like 300 euros more a year yay! Totally worth not having children getting fruit in school and letting students study fulltime and work fulltime to stay afloat!
That said, Norway is still probably close to as good as it gets. I think the swedish tax level might be better, but then again, think about the employment in Norway which is in a far better state in Norway than Sweden. Social support during education is also far higher than in Sweden, which blew my mind when I heard it.
Yeah i know i'm actually Swedish But it's funny how the same thing happened in Sweden just 8 years earlier with the right being voted in.
As much as I despise some things going on here, I can't deny that the Netherlands is comparatively such a good country to live in. We're incredibly liberal and socialistic to some degree (although we have some parties trying to stirr that up ^^) if you're looking for some medication, it's practically legal. You'd have to get used to the small space though. I've been to the states a couple of times and the space difference between here and there is massive. We've just got way less ground here, and I'd imagine it's an even bigger difference in Australia. As most European countries we're getting away from religion slowly but surely, and that is a goooood thing in my opinion. I think, as a rolemodel for European countries you should look at the Netherlands or the countries surrounding it.
Why not another country that is like Germany but in richer? Like Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark? I am pretty sure life in every single one of those countries is better on average.
Yes more info on these places please! Got the message that Germany is pretty cool
Dutch here. Got tons of friends on welfare because they just can't find jobs. Meanwhile the government doesn't accomplish anything because every initiatve is smothered in rules and endless debate. The one thing they do manage however is slowly nibble away at the privacy of the citizen. All in the name of "safety" and "convenience".
Canada is a pretty great place to live just because of the people. Our government on the other hand is nothing short of a fucking disaster. Following politics here in BC is a guaranteed way to shave years off of your life. Replacing our dumbass prime minister isnt even an option really, since the alternatives aren't any better. At all. Then we have our unending 'native' problem. Not going to get started on the media either. Bleh.
At least we have hockey.
Basically, every country has it's own list of internal problems and you probably shouldn't go looking for some perfect country to live in. You'll never find it. Moving across the world to experience a new culture and whatnot is different though.
Bit extreme to say you want to move countries because Abbott got into power. Even if he was half as bad as you made him out to be I don't see him being around for more than 8 years. Not worth ditching Australia for imo.
.... And so it has begun. After only 24 hours as prime minister, Tony Abbott has put the Marine Park Suspension into play, with dredging construction already underway to create Australia's newest shipping highway, Abbott point, better known as the Great Barrier Reef. Completely disregarding the World Heritage Classification or UNESCO protection, Rinehart is removing 3 MILLION cubic meters of the worlds most diverse largest living organism and ecosystem only to build the largest coal export terminal. We are going to lose one of the worlds most truly precious gems to a temporary and damaging "solution". The Great Barrier Reef will no longer exist because of Abbotts desire for CSG export income. So please reblog and share this to show your support for saving natures gift to the world. Wake UP Australia, and spread the word.
^Yes, I'm aware that's not a news source or anything, although that said, 70% of the print media sold here is owned by one biased Murdoch...
On November 10 2013 22:22 Clarty wrote: Bit extreme to say you want to move countries because Abbott got into power. Even if he was half as bad as you made him out to be I don't see him being around for more than 8 years. Not worth ditching Australia for imo.
8 isn't enough to move even temporarily for?? I mean, if he could have a stronger effect than you believe, then one term of under 4 years, sure, but if you thought he were guaranteed to get 8, that's a lot of life to dedicate to a country you might feel unhappy in. I'm not suggesting jumping ship now is a good idea, but if he is good at looking after himself, knows how to cook plenty, has decent qualifications for job prospects in numerous countries, it's not worth just waiting around 8 years just because then Abbott would be gone. ;P
I mention the food part because, getting onto a vaguely related story... I'd like to know South Koreans down here, but to my dismay, there are only a small number where I am and one, who was a friend of a friend, went back to South Korea having had a terrible time here due to: - She and her friend who I think came with her didn't have great cooking skills, so the higher mark-up of pre-prepared food sold by fast food places, restaurants, cafés etc. is much higher here than in SK and it makes basic living much harder, so relying on food made for you is a gamble some people fail to consider it seems. Other reasons: + Show Spoiler +
- Not such great job prospects here, before even considering that they're not Australian and didn't speak particularly confidently - I don't know whether they were burning savings from SK or were on some sort of welfare, but as a University student, likely the latter in some form? - "Nothing to do here" (especially with no money...) - I'm pretty sure they weren't meeting many people and as a (female) foreigner that doesn't speak English especially well here you can get a mixture of racism, the wrong sort of attention and just general indifference, so it's not so easy to mingle as a jobless female foreigner without especially confident English skills What's more, Koreans are typically used to socialising over drinks, yes? If you're unemployed...good luck getting the drinks? :\
On November 08 2013 21:51 ETisME wrote: debt going double doesn't mean it is a bad thing. Debt can be a good sign as well, more investment projects to help stimulate the economy for example. I haven't really looked into Aus economy since I graduated from Melbourne a while ago but it really depends on the debt structure. Tax cut is also arguable. A high tax rate would push away the rich and off they go to other countries, as well as the cost of maintaining the tax, finding and fixing tax loop holes etc.
Great point about tax cuts that's easy to forget. I would say the last government was doing more for increasing debt through actual investments for the country though.
The treasurer, Joe Hockey, has talked about how European Austerity measures are the right approach. Despite preaching this, the new government just loves throwing away money on policies that don't even really fit with the supposed "pro-business" mentality. They're implementing a policy to allow maternity leave to be paid NOT at a base rate as it was, but a rate related to their normal income, thus allowing well-off mothers-to-be to basically get high income welfare for extended periods while mothers on lower jobs get paid much less. The supposed idea, of course, is to encourage more well-supported families, but it's not as if the wealthier ones don't already have the money to start families without any form of government support. >:|
On denial of rights, gay marriage is probably the primary (if there was one) topic DropBear was thinking of.
You know what? While I have my gripes, it's probably better if we can just encourage a lot more good, moral, intelligent and not-completely-useless people to come to Australia; help to provide a safe (enough) haven for people concerned about their countries and build up the anti-Abbott voting base! XD ㅋㅋ *Plotting*
EPT
