|
On September 11 2013 09:40 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 09:11 KazeHydra wrote:On September 11 2013 09:12 IgnE wrote:
I'm not ignoring your arguments. I'm saying your arguments can't be right, because according to you either A) Jesus is a capricious and unjust God or B) Jesus says that all men must give up their wealth and dedicate their whole lives to spreading the word. Both seem clearly wrong here, but those are the only two possibilities that you leave open for yourself. Seriously? All you did was interpret my arguments in some inconceivable way and say I'm wrong. You have not addressed them at all in any way. I really feel like you are a troll at this point and if you aren't, I find it pathetic I can enjoy a religious discussion on the internet, of all places, with an atheist better than with you. You say that Jesus knew the man wouldn't give up his wealth when asked. Who would give up their wealth when asked? Why would Jesus ask that of one rich man but not every rich man? It just makes no sense. Shouldn't all rich people give up their wealth if it were really and truly almost impossible to get into heaven with wealth? Why aren't you living like an ascetic monk? I think it's because you don't really believe that.
I don't understand how you can take a passage so literally, yet add your own interpretation that isn't there. It's a metaphor, everyone doesn't have to give up their wealth, but they must not choose their wealth over God, that is all it means.
|
On September 11 2013 09:40 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 09:11 KazeHydra wrote:On September 11 2013 09:12 IgnE wrote:
I'm not ignoring your arguments. I'm saying your arguments can't be right, because according to you either A) Jesus is a capricious and unjust God or B) Jesus says that all men must give up their wealth and dedicate their whole lives to spreading the word. Both seem clearly wrong here, but those are the only two possibilities that you leave open for yourself. Seriously? All you did was interpret my arguments in some inconceivable way and say I'm wrong. You have not addressed them at all in any way. I really feel like you are a troll at this point and if you aren't, I find it pathetic I can enjoy a religious discussion on the internet, of all places, with an atheist better than with you. You say that Jesus knew the man wouldn't give up his wealth when asked. Who would give up their wealth when asked? Why would Jesus ask that of one rich man but not every rich man? It just makes no sense. Shouldn't all rich people give up their wealth if it were really and truly almost impossible to get into heaven with wealth? Why aren't you living like an ascetic monk? I think it's because you don't really believe that.
Let me answer each of your questions in turn. I doubt you'll accept my viewpoint, but whatever.
1. "Who would give up their wealth when asked?" Anyone who would unquestioningly follow what Jesus, the God and Creator of the Universe told them. Like I tried to say before, it's a matter of priorities. If your priority is following Jesus, if he told you to do something, you'd do it. Do you disagree that if Jesus asked you personally to do something you'd do it even if maybe you didn't want to?
2. "Why would Jesus ask that of one rich man but not every rich man?" Because the wealth wasn't the point. The message here isn't "It's better to poor than rich" and it's not "it's better to be rich than poor". The message is much more broad than that. The message is to trust Jesus with your life. The comment about it being hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven also applies to poor people. Without God, no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and I think that's what Jesus was getting at more than rich vs. poor and giving away possessions.
3. "Shouldn't all rich people give up their wealth if it were really and truly almost impossible to get into heaven with wealth?" I think this is kinda covered in what I just said. Again, it's not really about the wealth, it just happened to be that man's vice. If it was a different man, Jesus might have just as easily said "One thing you lack. Stop being mean to people". It just happened that money was what this rich man loved. In my alternate statement, maybe it was a rich man who instead of idolizing money made snide comments to people.
4. "Why aren't you living like an ascetic monk?" You're right. It's cause he (and I) doesn't believe what you think he's talking about. Of course we're not called to live like monks and your use of reductio ad absurdum (reducing an argument to an absurd conclusion) is very much incorrect.
|
On September 11 2013 10:09 Janaan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 09:40 IgnE wrote:On September 11 2013 09:11 KazeHydra wrote:On September 11 2013 09:12 IgnE wrote:
I'm not ignoring your arguments. I'm saying your arguments can't be right, because according to you either A) Jesus is a capricious and unjust God or B) Jesus says that all men must give up their wealth and dedicate their whole lives to spreading the word. Both seem clearly wrong here, but those are the only two possibilities that you leave open for yourself. Seriously? All you did was interpret my arguments in some inconceivable way and say I'm wrong. You have not addressed them at all in any way. I really feel like you are a troll at this point and if you aren't, I find it pathetic I can enjoy a religious discussion on the internet, of all places, with an atheist better than with you. You say that Jesus knew the man wouldn't give up his wealth when asked. Who would give up their wealth when asked? Why would Jesus ask that of one rich man but not every rich man? It just makes no sense. Shouldn't all rich people give up their wealth if it were really and truly almost impossible to get into heaven with wealth? Why aren't you living like an ascetic monk? I think it's because you don't really believe that. Let me answer each of your questions in turn. I doubt you'll accept my viewpoint, but whatever. 1. "Who would give up their wealth when asked?" Anyone who would unquestioningly follow what Jesus, the God and Creator of the Universe told them. Like I tried to say before, it's a matter of priorities. If your priority is following Jesus, if he told you to do something, you'd do it. Do you disagree that if Jesus asked you personally to do something you'd do it even if maybe you didn't want to? 2. "Why would Jesus ask that of one rich man but not every rich man?" Because the wealth wasn't the point. The message here isn't "It's better to poor than rich" and it's not "it's better to be rich than poor". The message is much more broad than that. The message is to trust Jesus with your life. The comment about it being hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven also applies to poor people. Without God, no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and I think that's what Jesus was getting at more than rich vs. poor and giving away possessions. 3. "Shouldn't all rich people give up their wealth if it were really and truly almost impossible to get into heaven with wealth?" I think this is kinda covered in what I just said. Again, it's not really about the wealth, it just happened to be that man's vice. If it was a different man, Jesus might have just as easily said "One thing you lack. Stop being mean to people". It just happened that money was what this rich man loved. In my alternate statement, maybe it was a rich man who instead of idolizing money made snide comments to people. 4. "Why aren't you living like an ascetic monk?" You're right. It's cause he (and I) doesn't believe what you think he's talking about. Of course we're not called to live like monks and your use of reductio ad absurdum (reducing an argument to an absurd conclusion) is very much incorrect.
1. How do you know Jesus isn't calling you to give up your wealth and follow him?
2. How do you know that Jesus isn't calling everyone to give up their wealth and follow him?
3. Why are people engaged in worldly pursuits as Christians at all? Isn't the point of working at a job to make money? To increase your wealth? And doesn't God reward those who do well at it?
4. I'm not trying to make this absurd. I just lay out the points as I see them. I think it's much more likely that Jesus is calling this man out to atone for sins by giving up his wealth. Wealth is a reward for a godly life. Poverty is a punishment for an ungodly one. Giving up your wealth and following him sounds like a path of atonement to me. It's right in the text.
|
On September 11 2013 08:31 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 08:23 sam!zdat wrote:
birdie you can make the book say whatever you want. It is large and contains multitudes. Some of the passages you cite are pseudo-paul and part of the counterrevolution as the subversive influence of christianity was reabsorbed into the roman familias. Of course they say that. Remember the devil also comes quoting scripture (i should know I am such a devil). The devil wrote some of the scripture, too. How you like dem apples? Given that we are in a topic addressed to Christians, talking about Christian things, I think it's reasonable that we work off the Bible as the basis for our argument. Not only are you not arguing from the Bible, you're not even attempting to refute anything said. You are not contributing anything to the discussion, but are merely saying that I can twist the Bible to say what I want, and that it's a big book, and then some un-supported claims about pseudo-paul and counterrevolutions. Not only does that lack any meaningful contribution, but it's very poor form for any kind of reasonable discussion among intellectuals. I suggest you not only try to take a stance with arguments stemming from the Bible (or other sources if you really want to), but that you cease trying to cast off contrary positions without every addressing the issue itself.
The OP stated that non Christians could participate in discussion as long as they are open minded, but restricting discussion to bible passages seems decidedly closed minded in my opinion. If you want to have a reasonable discussion among intellectuals, you should be able to consider other viewpoints, that do not stem from the bible, especially with concepts like faith which directly affect the way you interpret the bible.
Sam is arguing against faith over action in general, not just with regards to Christianity, so there is really no need for him to refute the bible passages because (I think) his position would be that the passages don't have any intrinsic value, but that it is only what we take from them that is important.
The idea of faith based salvation bothers me quite a bit, because it just doesn't make sense to me. It's not the idea of faith in God that I struggle with, it's asking me to have faith in man that is telling me what God is and what he expects that I just can't bring myself to do. It's not necessarily that I don't believe the miracles in the bible happened because I think they are scientifically impossible (though admittedly it plays a part), it's that I feel it is more likely that some parts were exaggerated or fabricated to attract followers or send a message*.
So the part that I don't get is why God would bless me with the ability to think critically, yet condemn me as a non believer to eternal damnation just for coming to the wrong (yet perfectly reasonable) conclusion. The thing is I am not opposed to the idea of a creator, but nothing I have experienced to date has convinced me that any of the current major religions are anything other than products of man.
*Note these are purely my beliefs and I am not trying to argue their validity or to push them onto anybody else.
|
On September 11 2013 08:09 IgnE wrote:
All good Christian business owners strive to enrich their businesses. America is the greatest country in the world because it is the best place to do business in the world. Working hard at a business and building your wealth while living a godly life is the epitome of holiness. Jesus came to overturn the Old Testament. He would not ask this man to turn over his wealth on a whim, just to prove that he enjoyed his godly wealth. He does it because he knows the man is inherently sinful.
How about this: The greatest country in the world is China because it's the best place to do business. Since the vast vast vast majority of Chinese will burn in hell (because they aren't christian), it seems like God is taking a definite stance.
Makes you think, huh.
|
China is a communist state that will collapse like the Soviet Union did, within our lifetimes.
|
They're sure not showing signs of it. And unlike the Soviet Union, they've got a thriving free market
|
On September 11 2013 16:55 IgnE wrote:
China is a communist state that will collapse like the Soviet Union did, within our lifetimes.
China is communist in name only. Honestly, they are more like totalitarian capitalists than communists at this point.
|
On September 11 2013 16:55 IgnE wrote:
China is a communist state that will collapse like the Soviet Union did, within our lifetimes.
It might be easy for you to make a blanket statement about a country you do not give a zero fuck about or know a zero fuck about. But as a person who lived in China for 10 years, it is an incredibly shitty thing to hear someone say. If you don't have any constructive arguments or are not willing to discuss it, don't just throw around something so ridiculous and controversial.
If I were to go around forums going "the US is gonna collapse because of these bible-thumping Christians" and then walk away, would you be pissed?
|
What pisses me off is you guys derailing the thread. The whole purpose of this thread was to tell other christians that I made a blog, and to talk about Christian things. My target audience is christians, so obviously my writing style will be more understanding to them. Obviously though, people are ignorant and overlook that, calling me close minded because of my intention to make it more "christians only." I invited non-christians to participate if they were open-minded to my subjects and were more curious rather than hit us upside the head and ask "what say you?!" And so, to go from faith and science to communism is downright unnecessary and offensive and stupid, to me at least. Now you guys are arguing just for the sake of it. I find it increasingly difficult for Christians to just talk about stuff anywhere outside of church without someone, or a group of people derailing it.
|
On September 12 2013 01:24 IronManSC wrote:
What pisses me off is you guys derailing the thread. The whole purpose of this thread was to tell other christians that I made a blog, and to talk about Christian things. My target audience is christians, so obviously my writing style will be more understanding to them. Obviously though, people are ignorant and overlook that, calling me close minded because of my intention to make it more "christians only." I invited non-christians to participate if they were open-minded to my subjects and were more curious rather than hit us upside the head and ask "what say you?!" And so, to go from faith and science to communism is downright unnecessary and offensive and stupid, to me at least. Now you guys are arguing just for the sake of it. I find it increasingly difficult for Christians to just talk about stuff anywhere outside of church without someone, or a group of people derailing it.
Maybe you'll realize an open international forum isn't a great place to discuss specific religious ideas, as the majority of the world isn't Christian.
|
My newest blog is now published, entitled God told me to "wait a couple seconds"
check it out!
|
|
|
Hi IronManSC
I just wanted to thank you for this blog!
I've recently stopped visiting TL as much as I used to. That's why I'm happy I found this blog this morning!  I've been praying in the same spirit like you have, and I have asked God for guidance in his ways and wisdom to live after his will and to be drawn closer to him. I have long been aware of the path of faith that you write about, though my biggest problem here is actually walking in faith everyday and seeing what his will is everday. I'm thankful you shared your blog here, and I will be following it. I believe that you did not share this by chance. I feel I'm in very similar situation. I'm looking forward to following you in a journey. Thank you =)
|
I used to Christian and now I consider myself agnostic.
Christian views on homosexuality really got to me. What are your thoughts?
|
Hi IronmanSC
I don't play SC2, but I sometimes follow the results of big tournies. It's really cool you made Ohana.
I'll definitely check out your blogs and comment on it if theres anything I want to comment on.
|
On September 12 2013 15:24 IgnE wrote:
Coincidence?
That was an extremely lucky thought if it was by coincidence, because I never sit at a light and think to wait a few seconds after the light turns green. The odds are against me in that regard. With the way it was all set up and the fact that it actually happened, I am convinced it was God who put that thought in my mind. Even if I was still confused on whether it was really God or not, the circumstances point to him and faith helps me understand that, thus I would be giving him the glory anyways.
When we get to heaven, I think we will be shocked when God reveals to us just how much he actually did in our normal day-to-day life and how much of it we ignored or failed to recognize because all too often we expect something dramatic to occur.
|
On September 12 2013 18:41 mizU wrote:
I used to Christian and now I consider myself agnostic.
Christian views on homosexuality really got to me. What are your thoughts?
There are a lot of "christians" out there who are extremely rude when it comes to this topic. I apologize if you've come across those Bible thumpers who are judgmental and condemning. God calls us to not judge, for that is his job in the end. Someone who is a homosexual is a human being, just like you and me. They being trapped in their sin is no different than one of us being trapped in our own personal habitual sin. As Christians, we are called to gently help and pray for someone who has fallen into a sinful lifestyle and help them repent of it. Repent means to turn away, to stop doing what you're doing.
In the Bible there's a story of a woman who believed she had sinned so greatly that she deserved to be stone. Everyone around her was about to stone her to death because of her abominable sin(s), yet Jesus stepped in and said "If any one of you has not sinned, let him be the first to cast a stone!" No one ended up throwing a stone. Jesus helped the woman up and told her "you are forgiven, go and sin no more." In other words, leave your sinful lifestyle and pursue God.
Our calling is to love people the way that Christ loved others. While on earth, Jesus reached out to all types of people, from alcoholics, to prostitutes, to the poor, the rich, the sick, the adulterers, the murderers, the demonically possessed, the tax collectors, and many more. He even reached out to the government officials when he could. He didn't come to hang out with the humble believers, he came to save those who are lost and make a way to be made forever right with God, the One who created you.
There is no reason why God can not, and will not reach out to someone in homosexuality if he chooses. I am sure there are plenty of true Christians who once were a homosexual, though I've never known any personally. Homosexuality is a serious offense in God's eyes, but we must not forget that it is a sin just like all the other ones. No sin is greater than another. Someone who sins in homosexuality is no more or less greater than the one who lies to his parents. All sins are forgivable by God except for one: the deliberate refusal in the heart to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God - to reject Christ as Lord and Savior, who died for you. I believe God gives many chances for people to turn to him, because he is gracious and merciful like that. But, there does come a point of no return.
One may argue that homosexuality is genetic and you therefore didn't choose to do it, it's just who you are. I believe that we are all born into sin. From the moment we breathe, we are in need of God's grace. No one teaches their child to say "mine!" when playing with toys. It's our sinful nature that teaches us that we are the god of our own lives and that we can make whatever decisions we want that makes us happy. If anyone lives a lifestyle of homosexuality, it's because they chose to practice it. Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you have to act on it, and just because it's a desire you have doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you and that you should pursue it. (I'm not going to argue about this topic).
Anyway that's my pretty basic view on it. I hope it makes sense.
|
On September 13 2013 02:41 IronManSC wrote:
In other words, leave your sinful lifestyle and pursue God.
Are you saying that homosexuals should, like this woman, cease sinning? Stop being a homosexual because it is a sin?
I mean I do understand that whole 'dance' where you're trying to seem open minded by loosely interpreting the bible but are you saying that homosexuals should stop?
|
On September 13 2013 02:41 IronManSC wrote:
I apologize if you've come across those Bible thumpers who are judgmental and condemning.
+ Show Spoiler +[homosexuals...] being trapped in their sin is no different than one of us being trapped in our own personal habitual sin we are called to gently help and pray for someone who has fallen into a sinful lifestyle and help them repent of it. Homosexuality is a serious offense in God's eyes, but we must not forget that it is a sin just like all the other ones Someone who sins in homosexuality is no more or less greater than the one who lies to his parents. . ..... ...... .......
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
