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On October 02 2013 15:45 Myrddraal wrote:
So I'm asking you this because I truly want to know the answer, but I don't want an answer that stems from the bible, why is it that you believe that the bible is the true word of God?
/deep breath ...ok, but it may not necessarily be the answer you're looking for because it's the work of God alone, not my own, to how and why I believe the Bible to be the true Word of God. I might sound crazy or deluded to you, but I'm not making this up, so I'll just be plain and honest with you.
I believe the Bible to be the true Word of God because it's not about choosing what verses you want to have faith in, but rather God choosing you before you even came to him, as Romans 9:16 says, "So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it." Whether through a sermon, life circumstance, incident, or other people, God can call you internally and prompt you to believe in him by means of the Holy Spirit (this is what the Holy Spirit does, he prompts you to believe, and when you do he dwells within you and sanctifies you throughout your lifetime).
Now I was naturally sheltered by many Christians and I grew up in the church and in a Christian home - and i'm thankful for that, however going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. I still had to make a personal choice at one point to accept Jesus into my heart when I felt the curiosity to know him more and a prompting to pray. I did this at a younger age (6-8, i can't remember).
When I said yes to Jesus, the Holy Spirit took permanent residence in me and "re-generated" me, or what we call "born again by the Spirit." You can't exactly "feel" the Holy Spirit, but at times you can feel his presence through worship, prayer, or talking deeply with other Christians. Overtime he teaches you, comforts you, guides you, and re-assures you through your conscience, the Bible, prayer, other people, sermons, missions trips, etc. Over the years, he's convinced me that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, that Jesus is truth, and that the Bible is truly divine-inspired. It wasn't about picking verses and choosing to believe them or comparing one book to another, it was the Holy Spirit who "opened my eyes" spiritually to the truth so that I can understand Jesus and his word, know it, and trust in his promises. That's what the Holy Spirit does to you, he enables you to not only believe, but to understand the truth and what faith in Jesus really is. The Bible points to Jesus, and Jesus is the Gospel.
That's probably as boldly as I can put it for you. I'm sorry if I sound like a nut to you, but that's me being completely honest. Jesus does all the work through his Holy Spirit. I didn't just believe, he enabled me to believe and caused me to understand Jesus, his teachings, and the Bible more and more over the years. It was an internal change of heart that only he can do.
In the spoiler below are some verses to explain a little better what it means to have the Holy Spirit in you, and what he teaches you, assures you of, etc.+ Show Spoiler +"And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God" - 1 John 5:20 "Since we believe human testimony, surely we can believe the greater testimony that comes from God. And God has testified about his Son. All who believe in the Son of God know in their hearts that this testimony is true .... And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." - 1 John 5  -11 "But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true-it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ." - 1 John 2:27 "Through Christ you have come to trust in God. And you have placed your faith and hope in God because he raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory." - 1 Peter 1:21 "You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. The reward for trusting him will be the salvation of your souls." 1 Peter 1:8-9 "For when we brought you the Good News, it was not only with words but also with power, for the Holy Spirit gave you full assurance that what we said was true." - 1 Thessalonians 1:5 "But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative-that is, the Holy Spirit-he will teach you everything and will remind you everything I have told you. I am leaving you with a gift-peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give is a gift the world cannot give. So don't be troubled or afraid." - John 14: 26-27 "We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are." - Romans 3:22 "We can rejoice too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they help us develop endurance. And endurance develops strength of character, and character strengthens our confident hope of salvation. And this hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, because he has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love." - Romans 5:3-5 "For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God's children." - Romans 8:16 And probably the set of verses that can piss people off... "But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God's deep secrets. No one can know a person's thoughts except that person's own spirit, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. And we have received God's Spirit (not the world's spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.
When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. For,
Who can know the Lord's thoughts?
Who knows enough to teach him?
But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ" - 1 Corinthians 2:10-16
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On October 03 2013 17:35 IronManSC wrote:
I still had to make a personal choice at one point to accept Jesus into my heart when I felt the curiosity to know him more and a prompting to pray. I did this at a younger age (6-8, i can't remember).
So you don't remember the most important date of your life? The day you reached out your hands to grab god's hand and to accept him into your heart?
Must have been quite the impression if you don't remember it.
It's almost as if you 're just making all of this up in order to explain your delusion. That's classic psychology.
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no he's not making it up. that's really how he experiences it. religion is not true, but it works.
edit: which is why you guys miss the point when you tell him it isn't true. he knows that. he doesn't really care whether it's true or not, that's not the point. he's emotionally invested in believing that he believes that it's true. religion is not about truth it is about emotion.
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On October 04 2013 01:36 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 17:35 IronManSC wrote:
I still had to make a personal choice at one point to accept Jesus into my heart when I felt the curiosity to know him more and a prompting to pray. I did this at a younger age (6-8, i can't remember).
So you don't remember the most important date of your life? The day you reached out your hands to grab god's hand and to accept him into your heart? Must have been quite the impression if you don't remember it. It's almost as if you 're just making all of this up in order to explain your delusion. That's classic psychology.
Or you're using my lack of a specific date as a reason to call me a nonbeliever. I can tell you what happened that day and how I came to God, but I was young, I can't remember the specific date it happened. If I was much older, sure, but some people grow up in the faith more gradually.
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On October 04 2013 01:47 sam!zdat wrote:
no he's not making it up. that's really how he experiences it. religion is not true, but it works.
edit: which is why you guys miss the point when you tell him it isn't true. he knows that. he doesn't really care whether it's true or not, that's not the point. he's emotionally invested in believing that he believes that it's true. religion is not about truth it is about emotion.
Faith is a firm belief. It is not an emotion or a feeling because those always change.
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I believe that you believe that you believe but I don't believe that you believe
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On October 04 2013 04:47 sam!zdat wrote:
I believe that you believe that you believe but I don't believe that you believe
Dude, are you so full of hate that you have to use your time to go around and mock, criticize, and completely disregard the Christian faith simply because you don't want to believe or because you don't agree with it? What does it do for you? What are you achieving in life or for yourself by doing so? Quit being a tool in this thread. If you don't want to believe in Jesus, then let it rest on your shoulders, but don't come around and ignorantly bash people for having a God-given faith that you can't understand unless you receive it yourself.
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don't feel bad I do it to atheists also. It's my religion
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Alright, sam, while I understand your point of view regarding IronMan's thinking, I think you're being too abrasive without really being constructive on explaining exactly why you are saying the things you are saying. And while you and I may disagree with him (for different reasons) it isn't really helpful to anyone or for any discourse on Christianity to just label the opponent as a "heretic" or "not a true Christian/true believer" etc. And IronManSC, sam!zdat is a "Christian". This will become more understandable once you become familiar with this particular tradition of Christianity. I won't really fault you for not understanding that because in the context of American Christianity it's minuscule if not utterly nonexistent in large areas of the country. I really have no interest in engaging in the rather banal argument of what is "true Christianity" or "true belief" or whathaveyou.
Anyway, I hope you read my long post on my view of scripture in relation to revelation a couple pages back.
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it's true I'm an asshole. But I think his thinking is dangerous and should be fought with mockery. I'll try to stay away from here, but on the other hand, posting this thread in the first place is obvious gadfly bait and I think you shouldn't complain when gadflies arrive.
User was warned for this post
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Yeah but how is he going to be convinced that maybe some of this thinking might be wrong if you don't really explain why. Mockery isn't a very good motivator.
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Especially with a typical Evangelical/Fundamentalist American Christian type.
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On October 04 2013 07:39 koreasilver wrote:
Alright, sam, while I understand your point of view regarding IronMan's thinking, I think you're being too abrasive without really being constructive on explaining exactly why you are saying the things you are saying. And while you and I may disagree with him (for different reasons) it isn't really helpful to anyone or for any discourse on Christianity to just label the opponent as a "heretic" or "not a true Christian/true believer" etc. And IronManSC, sam!zdat is a "Christian". This will become more understandable once you become familiar with this particular tradition of Christianity. I won't really fault you for not understanding that because in the context of American Christianity it's minuscule if not utterly nonexistent in large areas of the country. I really have no interest in engaging in the rather banal argument of what is "true Christianity" or "true belief" or whathaveyou.
Anyway, I hope you read my long post on my view of scripture in relation to revelation a couple pages back.
It's easy to call yourself a Christian. Anyone can do it for a thousand different reasons, but there is one God, one faith, one truth. Those who believe Jesus as their Lord and Savior, that he is the Son of God, and that God raised him from the dead after dying on the cross for our sins will be saved. Being raised in the church, private school, a Christian family, having Christian friends, owning a Bible, being a republican, living in a Christian "nation," saying that God exists, or whatever other excuse you have does not mean you are a real Christian. Standing in a garage doesn't make you a car, holding a wrench doesn't make you a mechanic, and cleaning your computer of a virus doesn't make you a computer tech repair specialist. Also, a true believer will not disregard the true faith of another believer because they are like-minded with the same Spirit of God in them.
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On October 04 2013 07:48 sam!zdat wrote:
it's true I'm an asshole. But I think his thinking is dangerous and should be fought with mockery. I'll try to stay away from here, but on the other hand, posting this thread in the first place is obvious gadfly bait and I think you shouldn't complain when gadflies arrive.
The gadfly is you. I specifically said in the OP that you can have discussions if you're open-minded and if you're not here to attack Christians. You are doing just the opposite. You're doing everything in your power to disprove and disregard my faith and trying to make me look like some public disgrace among the other readers and viewers. On top of it all, you're telling me to basically "deal with it" when you decide to break the blog rules and bash on others.
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On October 02 2013 15:45 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 06:32 IronManSC wrote:On September 28 2013 06:02 HardlyNever wrote:On September 28 2013 05:48 IronManSC wrote:
I'm not interpreting that correctly enough, and that ultimately I ought to agree to disagree with you. This may be part of the disconnect. Or maybe it is just a typo, I don't know. You've agreed that the bible is open to interpretation. The problem is that you seem to think there is a "correct" interpretation. Interpretation means it is open for opinion, discussion, and debate. There is no "correct" interpretation; you have to decide what you think is correct, in your opinion, and work from there. There is no one definitive right answer. So following this logic: 1. We've established that the bible is open for interpretation. 2. We've established that there can be multiple, and even contradictory, interpretations. There is no "correct" interpretation. 3. What this means is that, ultimately, it is you who choses how to interpret the bible (or anything else). You can read into it, and take out of it, what you want. So when people justify their bigoted, homophobic, or similar ideas as "not their own, just following the bible," it doesn't hold much water. The bible is up for personal interpretation; you can choose not to follow those antiquated social "norms" (and some christians don't). However, when you chose to interpret the bible in a way to justify those sort of ideas, that are generally not thought to be consistent with 21st century western equality, you're going to come under personal scrutiny, because it is you who has chosen to interpret the bible in this way. The underlying problem in this entire discussion is that people, like yourself, seem to think that truth is tangible in a way that you want it to be. In other words, how you interpret the Bible is therefore truth to you. It's not a matter of cherry picking verses that you want to believe and then making it your personal truth. The truth - the Gospel - is Jesus Christ, who came down from heaven to die for our sins, so that we can be made right with God through him, that if we should accept him wholeheartedly and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and Savior, then we will be saved. Damn, I thought this was a great post from HardlyNever and I was really hoping you would consider it and provide a thoughtful response to why you believe the gospel or your interpretation of it is true. The reason I was hoping for this is because it is probably the key reason that I do not consider myself a Christian, because I can't find any reasons to have faith in the bible that do not require me to already have faith. This is also, I think, why many people accuse you of being closed-minded and anti-intellectual, when asked "Why do you have faith?" your answer is something along the lines of "Because the bible is truth and it tells me to have faith" but if you were truly thinking and discussing open-mindedly you would realise that that doesn't answer the question at all because stating the bible as truth must mean you already have faith. So I'm asking you this because I truly want to know the answer, but I don't want an answer that stems from the bible, why is it that you believe that the bible is the true word of God?
Just wanted to pop in and respond to this... I think that the Christian ought to reject premise 2 - that there can be or are multiple and potentially conflicting interpretations of the Bible. There is only one correct interpretation and that is God's interpretation. After all, who else would perfectly know what a person means except for the very person, right? This doesn't mean however that we can't get at what God is intending to tell us just like sometimes I'll be right about what you intend to say even when you might not express it very clearly or in a way that I understand.
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I'm not going to waste time anymore on anyone that tries to play Grand Inquisitor that judges what is true Christianity or not. I really am not interested in talking to sectarians. Moreover, opposing a Christian does not therefore mean that one is opposing Christianity. samzdat has not attacked Christianity throughout this entire thread. Nor does repeating the Christological premise ad infinitum actually have any relevancy in replying to what I've been bringing up.
On October 04 2013 08:56 arsenic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 15:45 Myrddraal wrote:On September 28 2013 06:32 IronManSC wrote:On September 28 2013 06:02 HardlyNever wrote:On September 28 2013 05:48 IronManSC wrote:
I'm not interpreting that correctly enough, and that ultimately I ought to agree to disagree with you. This may be part of the disconnect. Or maybe it is just a typo, I don't know. You've agreed that the bible is open to interpretation. The problem is that you seem to think there is a "correct" interpretation. Interpretation means it is open for opinion, discussion, and debate. There is no "correct" interpretation; you have to decide what you think is correct, in your opinion, and work from there. There is no one definitive right answer. So following this logic: 1. We've established that the bible is open for interpretation. 2. We've established that there can be multiple, and even contradictory, interpretations. There is no "correct" interpretation. 3. What this means is that, ultimately, it is you who choses how to interpret the bible (or anything else). You can read into it, and take out of it, what you want. So when people justify their bigoted, homophobic, or similar ideas as "not their own, just following the bible," it doesn't hold much water. The bible is up for personal interpretation; you can choose not to follow those antiquated social "norms" (and some christians don't). However, when you chose to interpret the bible in a way to justify those sort of ideas, that are generally not thought to be consistent with 21st century western equality, you're going to come under personal scrutiny, because it is you who has chosen to interpret the bible in this way. The underlying problem in this entire discussion is that people, like yourself, seem to think that truth is tangible in a way that you want it to be. In other words, how you interpret the Bible is therefore truth to you. It's not a matter of cherry picking verses that you want to believe and then making it your personal truth. The truth - the Gospel - is Jesus Christ, who came down from heaven to die for our sins, so that we can be made right with God through him, that if we should accept him wholeheartedly and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and Savior, then we will be saved. Damn, I thought this was a great post from HardlyNever and I was really hoping you would consider it and provide a thoughtful response to why you believe the gospel or your interpretation of it is true. The reason I was hoping for this is because it is probably the key reason that I do not consider myself a Christian, because I can't find any reasons to have faith in the bible that do not require me to already have faith. This is also, I think, why many people accuse you of being closed-minded and anti-intellectual, when asked "Why do you have faith?" your answer is something along the lines of "Because the bible is truth and it tells me to have faith" but if you were truly thinking and discussing open-mindedly you would realise that that doesn't answer the question at all because stating the bible as truth must mean you already have faith. So I'm asking you this because I truly want to know the answer, but I don't want an answer that stems from the bible, why is it that you believe that the bible is the true word of God? Just wanted to pop in and respond to this... I think that the Christian ought to reject premise 2 - that there can be or are multiple and potentially conflicting interpretations of the Bible. There is only one correct interpretation and that is God's interpretation. After all, who else would perfectly know what a person means except for the very person, right? This doesn't mean however that we can't get at what God is intending to tell us just like sometimes I'll be right about what you intend to say even when you might not express it very clearly or in a way that I understand.
Scripture in of itself already is mediated just by it being in a material and historical form. Scripture isn't God and the written scripture is never absolute truth in-itself. God doesn't interpret the Bible as if scripture is the primary source upon which God presents something secondary. Scripture is full of ambiguities that require interpretation (Augustine), and because of its ambiguous state every reading is by its very fact an interpretation. This doesn't mean that we can't actually get to what scripture is trying to say but nevertheless, because of the nature of scripture and human knowing all reading is interpretation. There is no one correct interpretation because God does not interpret the Bible. The Bible is not revelation in-itself, it is a testimony to revelation that cannot be extricated from its historical, material, and linguistic framework (Barth). IronMan's reply in that quotetrain doesn't actually solve anything. There are no orthodox interpretations that deny that Christ was God incarnate in flesh that died for the sins of mankind. That does not solve anything. It is ignorant to the history of Christian thought and all the questions and problems that have accompanied it in its long history as if there are varying interpretations just because some people didn't believe in the basic orthodox Christological premise or the Trinity (then can you please explain the Reformation?). Even saying something like there is an interpretation of scripture by God is a pretty serious theological error...
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On October 04 2013 08:03 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 07:48 sam!zdat wrote:
it's true I'm an asshole. But I think his thinking is dangerous and should be fought with mockery. I'll try to stay away from here, but on the other hand, posting this thread in the first place is obvious gadfly bait and I think you shouldn't complain when gadflies arrive. The gadfly is you.
yes yes that's what I'm saying. i'm a gadfly and proud of it
On October 04 2013 07:50 koreasilver wrote:
Yeah but how is he going to be convinced that maybe some of this thinking might be wrong if you don't really explain why. Mockery isn't a very good motivator.
i have a whole rant about the proper attitude toward texts somewhere in here, about reinterpreting the kerygma and about how biblical literalism is just about the most blasphemous attitude you can have toward a text. paragraphs and paragraphs. i've explained why. then he ignores me and quotes from a book he doesn't understand to prove how i'm wrong
On October 04 2013 09:11 koreasilver wrote:
samzdat has not attacked Christianity throughout this entire thread.
yes exaclty in fact i take myself to be DEFENDING christianity from someone who wants to destroy it by making it a dead thing
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I forgot why I come to TL, after reading this thread I remembered.
I've actually really appreciated koreasilver's views on this, at least they are consistent.
+ Show Spoiler +I am actually really sad that IgnE got banned, his mental gymnastics were hilarious.
While I'm not actually interested in seriously putting my views online in quite a so hostile place I just wanted to voice support for IronMan and his willingness to come back to this again and again and defend his views (even if I don't agree with all them).
To the few of you that are attempting to undermine/criticize (can't think of a positive way to spin that adjective) this thread has been a great place for me to test my views against your positions. I have managed to twist some pretty complex theological and scientific heresy's in the past few years.
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I actually think that in many ways a discourse on religion (even if a little hostile) is very constructive. Religious truth is something that is impossible to arrive at fully but I think that, if you choose to at least entertain the notion that there may be something to faith after all, arguments such as this help us get closer to that truth. And getting to that truth is all important if there is an afterlife on the line.
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the afterlife is such a distraction. there's no afterlife, get over it
questing after immortality is such a horrible blasphemy
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EPT
