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Losing in Challenger as a full-time player - Page 6

Blogs > Liquid`Snute
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aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-28 21:46:40
August 28 2013 20:52 GMT
#101
Great blog, Snute. It took a lot to share that, and you did it well, too. Thanks for the read.

I don't have any real advice to give you. But, your piano analogy immediately brought to mind a short story (called "The Alien Corn") by the English writer Somerset Maugham. The story concerns the son of a wealthy landowner (and a Jew in early 20th century England) who fought his family and their plans for him because he really wanted to be a concert pianist. The question is whether he was good enough? Unfortunately, he was not. He would never be more than a good amateur.

Why do I tell you this? Simply that even if you are doing everything right, and please continue to explore other options (like other playstyles - SC2 has so much to offer, a lot more than people give it credit for), you may still not get to where you want to be. So, if in the end, you don't get to where you want to go (i.e. the very top of SC2). Then that's OK, too. If you've given it everything, it takes courage to realise you might not have what it takes to be the player you want to be. And to walk away. Whatever happens, for what it's worth, you'll have my support.

GLHF, mate.
KT best KT ~ 2014
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
August 28 2013 21:10 GMT
#102
Given that Snute's good SC2 results seem largely based on discipline I think he has succeeded beyond expectations. We all have our plateaus, he can't expect to be as good as Flash and Jaedong even with the same training environment.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
iMAniaC
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway703 Posts
August 28 2013 21:23 GMT
#103
This is going to sound really silly, but perhaps you're just hungry? Hear me out.

This happens to me more often than I'd care to admit. I'm angry about something, but my girlfriend just tells me:
-'You're just grumpy because you're hungry.'
-'No, you silly girl, these are real problems I'm dealing with, this is important,' I think to myself. 'I'm not '"grumpy", I'm provoked by serious business'.
-'Let's eat something,' she says.
-'Okay, we can eat,' I say, 'but it's not going to change a thing,' I think to myself.
*grumble, grumble, chew, chew, grumble, swallow*
5 minutes later.
-'Perhaps it wasn't such a bit deal after all...,' I think to myself. 'But I'm certainly not going to tell my girlfriend she was right all along.'
10 minutes later
-'You know, I think you were right. I was just hungry, is all,' I tell her. After all, my initial problem, as well the fact that she was right, were not such a big deal. In fact, I'm feeling perfectly fine.

Having learnt that I get grumpy if I'm hungry, I've also learnt to identify it. Sometimes, I find myself thinking angry thoughts for no apparent reason. Then I eat something and the angry thoughts go away. I was about your age when I realized that my mind wasn't some meta-physical entity of which I was in complete control. There's no static perpetual essence of me who always behave as I do. There's the nice me and then there's the grumpy me, who manifests itself if I'm hungry.

I don't mean to belittle your problems or undermine the other excellent advice you've gotten in this thread, but I'm just going to point out that you may not need it and that it's very easy to just try and see. If you're feeling down, grumpy or angry, grab a banana, yoghurt or a slice of bread. Go outside in the fresh air and eat it and relax for a couple of minutes. Then see how you feel. Try it for a week. It doesn't take a lot of time and it's not difficult to do, so if it's not some of the cause of your despair after all, well, at least you tried and it wasn't really such a bother, right?

However, reading NarutO's post and knowing that I, myself, often deplete my blood sugar levels during mentally taxing work (such as maths or SC2), I'm hopeful that it may actually help you Try it out, because you're an awesome guy and it would just be way too silly to have huge problems that a simple banana could fix...
maw-maw
Profile Joined August 2011
Poland40 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-28 21:34:04
August 28 2013 21:31 GMT
#104
My mother said there are two types of people: artists and smiths.

Smiths will work their ass off, perfecting every detail of their creation. They are the hard working bunch.
Artists will spend little time on their creation but have loads of fun doing it. They are the 'gifted'/natural bunch.

Both traits have their limitations, both have bad and good sides. What I've found is that you have to foster whichever side you are lacking in to improve. I'm more of an artist in everything i do, but i can only get sup par result at any discipline i take because i dont put in the work. I'm just having fun exploring. And that takes me from 0 to a certain level in little to no time. But nowhere past that.

Now, You on the other hand clearly are Smith. What you need is a spark of inspiration, something that i know where to look for. You need to start having FUN. It sounds silly and simple, but thats what it is. You need to start trolling people with your builds, try stupid shit.

And yes, take a break, but make it a meaningful break. Stop practicing! Instead, talk to people about starcraft a lot. You will then find that what you missed was a perspective, a bigger picture. This is why a painter takes a few steps back from his painting.

The break is however, in my view, far less important than having fun. There are quite a few examples of succesfull players who dont put much practice into playing and instead just have fun. Just watch cellas stream

Stay awat from your practice regimen for a while, and collect ideas instead.

Take it from a guy who is the polar opposite of you.

gl & HF, Snute
now you're a mayun
Jett.Jack.Alvir
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada2250 Posts
August 28 2013 21:32 GMT
#105
Hey Snute,

You have just gained a new fan with your candid expression of frustration and failure. I have to say I feel the same way with my work. I am a web developer, and sometimes I get so upset with myself when my code doesn't work. I can spend hours trying to debug and troubleshoot and still not figure out the problem.

This can make me feel worthless and horrible. I feel like I am inadequate at my job, and I just want to smash my keyboard and imbibe large amounts of drugs and alcohol.

Your blog makes me realize that no matter how bad things feel; through all the failure and defeat; and despite all the self-criticism, we must not stop trying.

I am not alone in these feelings of self-worth, and it consoles me to know I am not alone. Please Snute do not give up, even if you do not become the best player. To know that you still continue doing what you do gives me assurance that I can keep going.

I have confidence that you will become great! When you gear up in that booth, with your headphones on and keyboard/mouse plugged in, you will remember this blog and you will feel a calm surrender; and you will play your greatest ever!

Keep trucking Snute!
Dagobert
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Netherlands1858 Posts
August 28 2013 22:40 GMT
#106
How about... + Show Spoiler +
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/11/07/the-secret-of-great-men-deliberate-practice/
? Worth a shot.
Kitai
Profile Joined June 2012
United States876 Posts
August 28 2013 23:04 GMT
#107
You're a good player and a good dude, Snute. I can't think of a single long-time player that hasn't slumped or gotten a result way less than what they deserved at some point. It'll come around =)
"You know, I don't care if soO got 100 second places in a row. Anyone who doesn't think that he's going to win blizzcon watching this series is a fool" - Artosis, Blizzcon 2014 soO vs TaeJa
Ender985
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Spain910 Posts
August 28 2013 23:06 GMT
#108
Snute fighting!!

I'd say try to have a more positive approach to life in general. Even when you have just lost to JohnnyTheScrub, try to remember that you are young and in good health, that your family and friends love you, that you live on top of the world. Life is good, it really is. It is sonething a bit hard to do when you are your harshest critic and only tolerate perfection for yourself, but try it, it has improved my quality of life a lot.
Member of the Pirate Party - direct democracy, institutional transparency, and freedom of information
CallMeJar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States2 Posts
August 28 2013 23:11 GMT
#109
Hello. You can CallMeJar. You can keep doing what you are currently doing and hope to get a different result. I however don't see this as happening. I'm not trying to discourage you but I would suggest for you to take a step back and gain the perspective you need in order to move forward.
Discoverist
Profile Joined May 2012
10 Posts
August 28 2013 23:14 GMT
#110
Oh cool another blog by some foreigner crying about not being good enough

User was temp banned for this post.
Jett.Jack.Alvir
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada2250 Posts
August 28 2013 23:22 GMT
#111
On August 29 2013 08:14 Discoverist wrote:
Oh cool another blog by some foreigner crying about not being good enough

Your post doesn't help.

Let him express his frustrations and bare his weakness to the community. Generally everyone has expressed support to Snute, except for you.

Are you upset about his blog? Did someone force you to read it? If you don't like it, then don't read it.
Jeremy Reimer
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada1033 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-28 23:37:09
August 28 2013 23:35 GMT
#112
Sometimes I think the foreigner/Korean divide hurts the foreigners in two ways, not just one.

When a foreigner plays a Korean, they often go into the match at a mental disadvantage right off the bat. "Everybody knows" that Koreans are better, and the foreign progamer internalizes this common knowledge and it shows in the games. The Korean player, meanwhile, goes in completely confident and knows that his skill will carry him to victory. Sure, the Korean player may have practiced more and with better practice partners, played on a better ladder, had a better coach (often the foreign player has no coach at all!) but on top of all this, he always starts with a mental advantage.

Okay, we can all see this. But after reading Snute's post, I think it hurts foreigners in another way.

At some point, with enough training, foreign players start taking games off Koreans. Obviously this makes them happy and gives them a mental boost because they beat an "impossible" player. Okay, but what happens when they play another foreigner? Now, if they lose, all the mental gain they got before is gone, because if they could beat a Korean but lost to a foreigner, they must have just lucked out before. They must really suck in actuality. Snute said it in his blog post: "I end up losing to foreigners that people would expect me to beat."

Whereas if a Korean loses to another Korean, so what? Happens all the time. Not a big deal. And if a Korean loses to a foreigner, they can chalk it up to the foreign player being "lucky". And they'll get "proof" of that the very next time they beat another Korean.

I think the skill gap between foreign pros and Korean pros is real, but it's actually somewhat less than is imagined. But the mental gap is huge.
"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." -- Carl Sagan
CallMeJar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States2 Posts
August 28 2013 23:37 GMT
#113
On August 29 2013 08:22 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2013 08:14 Discoverist wrote:
Oh cool another blog by some foreigner crying about not being good enough

Your post doesn't help.

Let him express his frustrations and bare his weakness to the community. Generally everyone has expressed support to Snute, except for you.

Are you upset about his blog? Did someone force you to read it? If you don't like it, then don't read it.

More like if your not part of the solution don't be part of the problem(or add to it). But since this is the internet no one gives a crap.
ttbek
Profile Joined July 2012
4 Posts
August 29 2013 00:00 GMT
#114
I haven't seen any of his games yet actually, but from what I hear, Snute is a boss. Just keep remembering that even the greats "underperform" as you know Jaedong has had it rough (well, 2nd is awesome, but he's Jaedong right?...) and Innovation recently with his early exit at WCS Season II Finals. You'll be back next time and we're looking forward to it.

Sheth, you're a great part of this community, it's always good to see your comments and we know how tough SCII has been for you, I'm glad you can be positive so about it, and I hope Snute can take your words, and those of his other supporters here, to heart.
RHWY
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Ireland43 Posts
August 29 2013 00:08 GMT
#115
On August 29 2013 08:35 Jeremy Reimer wrote:

I think the skill gap between foreign pros and Korean pros is real, but it's actually somewhat less than is imagined. But the mental gap is huge.


Not so much the mental gap between Foreigner and Korean. Its the mental handicapping that is common place in the professional vernacular. Although I know where the terminology stems from but calling non-Koreans foreigners, even when most of the time the Korean is the visitor in a host nation. This has always intrigued me.

Secondly we place Korean players/teams/training on a pedestal that people aspire to and as a result of the difference in infrastructure we will find it very hard to copy their blueprint which permanently causes a discrepancy between the actual self and ideal self. This is another crutch that non-Koreans use to attribute outcomes.

'The best training is in Korea...If I dont get that then I wont be confident to win'

We do not know if Koreans are more mentally strong or have a better mental skill set when using starcraft players as a sample group. We can only work with players on an individual basis, no two players are the same so what works for another player may not work with Jens.

His honesty resonates with a lot of other pro gamers which is good for pro active change.
@es_performance @LiquidTLO @LiquidRet
Jett.Jack.Alvir
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada2250 Posts
August 29 2013 00:36 GMT
#116
@Yapa

His honesty resonates with everyone. We can all feel worthless sometimes, and some more than others. That feeling of not good enough can be applied to everything we do in life. I applying it to Starcraft 2 is great though, because it gives other people who are striving to be pro an insight to the struggles involved.

I believe Nony had the same sentiment before. Didn't he state he had developed depression due to Starcraft 2?
RHWY
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Ireland43 Posts
August 29 2013 00:43 GMT
#117
On August 29 2013 09:36 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
@Yapa

His honesty resonates with everyone. We can all feel worthless sometimes, and some more than others. That feeling of not good enough can be applied to everything we do in life. I applying it to Starcraft 2 is great though, because it gives other people who are striving to be pro an insight to the struggles involved.

I believe Nony had the same sentiment before. Didn't he state he had developed depression due to Starcraft 2?


Of course, it is just nice to hear it from a pro gamer because we feel like they are living the dream when there is, in fact, a lot of pressure on them to get better. In the same way that it resonates with people in 'normal' jobs they too should be fine with asking for help when needed. I think Jens talking about this is good for newer players coming into the scene (the few that do) because I can see teams making changes to offer more pre-emptive support for players.

Ive watched a lot of Tylers streams as well, very informative and chilled streams for sure. I dont know if his depression stemmed from Starcraft or was accentuated by it.
@es_performance @LiquidTLO @LiquidRet
Sleet
Profile Joined January 2011
United States139 Posts
August 29 2013 00:55 GMT
#118
Snute, this is exactly how I've been feeling, my dad directed me to here. This is a really great post and I wish you the best of luck this coming season.
@SLeetscgames
vaderseven
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2556 Posts
August 29 2013 01:21 GMT
#119
Giving up is the only defeat.
BakedButters
Profile Joined November 2011
United States748 Posts
August 29 2013 01:25 GMT
#120
Thx for the write-up. I feel ya. This has helped me to try to improve my mindset in games, especially losing.
Snute <3 Bomber <3 Parting <3 Life <3
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