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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Like many who grew up in the 90's, I own a considerable number of CDs. CDs are of course physical objects, and they take up physical space. I've been trying to reduce the number of objects I own for the last few years, and these are prime candidates to hit the road. But there's a problem. Since I never listen to them anymore, I'd ideally like to throw them away while retaining the "rights" I have obtained by purchasing these disqs. Of course, this is not possible.
What do I mean by obtaining "rights"? What I mean is that if we have purchased these physical music recordings, then we have the right to copy them for our own, personal, noncommercial use. It means that we can burn another CD so that we have one copy in the living room and one in the car. It also means that we can rip a MP3 legally for our PCs and portable music players of our choice. But once we throw the physical disqs away, we immediately lose these rights since we no longer have this physical object which has a secondary purpose (after the sound data itself) of of providing us with the right to reproduce the recording for personal use. If for one reason or another we are prosecuted for having digital copies created from these disqs, we have no way of defening ourselves once we've throws the physical disqs away.
Now, the chances of this kind of scenario happening are remote. Thus I imagine that many of us have already ripped MP3s from the disqs and have long since tossed these shiny pancakes into the trash. Books present a similar problem, and I increasingly see friends scanning their books and tossing the remnant papers away. Perfectly pragmatic. Yet I cant't help but feel annoyed at the lack of elegant choices for us to transfer our means of proof of ownership from a physical to digital medium in this day and age. As far as I can tell, our only real choices are (1) to repurchase the songs on iTunes or Google Play or some other digital store (and even then we should always be aware that we never actually "own" these digital copies and they will be retracted after our death), or (2) let go of ownership entirely and move to a subscription service like Spotify or Grooveshark. Neither option is ideal, and I'm 100% confident that a perfect solution will never arise (the RIAA certainly has no motivation to do anything, and there's no money to be made for other companies so no one will ever push for a solution), which is quite sad.
My non-solution for the time being is to use the Grooveshark web app, which is free of charge and doesn't even require a login. If forced to make a choice between outright digital purchases and a subscription service, I'm leaning heavily towards a subscription service. Maybe the era of content ownership is coming to an end, as we learn to cope with owning neither our digital books, movies, or music. It's a Brave New World.
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crossposted from here
 
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There is nothing like owning the real product. I would hate to throw away my books for a digital copy.
Music and movies/series are different since you often time use a digital media to present it. But i 100% agree that it would be most "fair" of I could transfer my ownership from a analog media to a digital media without repurchasing. It will never happen though. You couldn't change your old VHS tapes for DVD, or Vinyl to CD etc. etc.
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So what do you suggest ? It's not like any music publisher or anyone can keep track of what we've bought. Which entity would record every purchase from every customer ? What happens when you sell a CD to a friend ?
I really don't see any way of proving that you own the rights besides keeping the CD.
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On July 31 2013 04:02 endy wrote:
So what do you suggest ? It's not like any music publisher or anyone can keep track of what we've bought. Which entity would record every purchase from every customer ? What happens when you sell a CD to a friend ?
I really don't see any way of proving that you own the rights besides keeping the CD.
I would suggest that we drop everything we have so far and develop a new system from scratch. For financially compensating producers of digital(-izable) art and entertainment that is.
I personally am leaning towards concepts like "culture flatrate/tax" with a centralized free distribution system which rewards producers fairly (this is the hard part). Of course there still can be a parallel market for physical pieces just like today.
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On July 31 2013 04:16 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:02 endy wrote:
So what do you suggest ? It's not like any music publisher or anyone can keep track of what we've bought. Which entity would record every purchase from every customer ? What happens when you sell a CD to a friend ?
I really don't see any way of proving that you own the rights besides keeping the CD. I would suggest that we drop everything we have so far and develop a new system from scratch. For financially compensating producers of digital(-izable) art and entertainment that is. I personally am leaning towards concepts like "culture flatrate/tax" with a centralized free distribution system which rewards producers fairly (this is the hard part). Of course there still can be a parallel market for physical pieces just like today.
You avoided the question, who would take care of that "distribution system" ? That's the main problem to me. A privately held company ? Governments ? Artists union ?
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On July 31 2013 03:58 thedeadhaji wrote:I think you bring up a great point: going from cds to mp3s doesn't alter the consumption experience much at all, but going from books to ebooks dramatically alters the experience (I am partial to physical books as well and continue to buy books and borrow physical copies from the library). Never thought of the previous medium transfers. Guess this is nothing new 
Agreed 100% and I feel like a grumpy old fart whenever I am reading a book at the beach and some annoying person nearby is blasting crappy music and reading Twilight on their Nook
I didn't know people scanning their books was a thing though
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Norway25712 Posts
I have the same problem. I have computer games, a bunch of them, in physical format, that I can't ever get rid of unless I'm prepared to fully pirate the games. Hell, I even have SC and BW discs, but I've lost the CD keys so they're basically completely useless and I might as well throw them away.
CDs I will never get rid of, I think. Sure, they take up a lot of space, but I like having a neat alphabetical collection. I keep it in a place where I know people will see it, I guess as a way of letting them know what one of my biggest passions are. I guess the posters I have on my wall do that just fine anyway, but my CD collection is the only thing I can proudly show off without booting up my computer. Scrolling through my Steam list of games or scrolling through my library of music on the PC doesn't work the same way.
I've never heard of people scanning their books, but I guess it makes sense in the same way ripping CDs or movies do. I haven't actually ever tried e-books in my entire life. I think I read a page from a Kafka book on my friend's Kindle once, and it was all right, but holding it felt awkward compared to books. I guess that's something I'd have to get used to.
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On July 31 2013 04:26 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:16 spinesheath wrote:On July 31 2013 04:02 endy wrote:
So what do you suggest ? It's not like any music publisher or anyone can keep track of what we've bought. Which entity would record every purchase from every customer ? What happens when you sell a CD to a friend ?
I really don't see any way of proving that you own the rights besides keeping the CD. I would suggest that we drop everything we have so far and develop a new system from scratch. For financially compensating producers of digital(-izable) art and entertainment that is. I personally am leaning towards concepts like "culture flatrate/tax" with a centralized free distribution system which rewards producers fairly (this is the hard part). Of course there still can be a parallel market for physical pieces just like today. You avoided the question, who would take care of that "distribution system" ? That's the main problem to me. A privately held company ? Governments ? Artists union ?
I avoided a lot of questions. What I proposed is just an extremely vague concept which I would probably support.
(And my concept wouldn't involve any "purchases" at all, so there are no "purchases" to track)
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Sort of like paying for internet, no? lol You guys don't want to see my internet bills. I pay a mini fortune to Rogers every month.
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i hated brave new world. grrrr
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On July 31 2013 04:31 QuanticHawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 03:58 thedeadhaji wrote:I think you bring up a great point: going from cds to mp3s doesn't alter the consumption experience much at all, but going from books to ebooks dramatically alters the experience (I am partial to physical books as well and continue to buy books and borrow physical copies from the library). Never thought of the previous medium transfers. Guess this is nothing new Agreed 100% and I feel like a grumpy old fart whenever I am reading a book at the beach and some annoying person nearby is blasting crappy music and reading Twilight on their Nook I didn't know people scanning their books was a thing though
thinly veiled brag of being on the beach 
I know for a fact that friends in Japan are using a service where I believe you send in your book to some company and they give back the scanned pdf. They cut off the binding and scan the book page by page. Some services give back the original pages, some don't. Looks like there are a lot of these services, and the cost is about $1-$2 per book. http://www.bookfire.net/
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What do you do with books you read, are they from the library or do you buy them?
books is what I own the most of, kind of annoying if I were to move because hundreds of books weigh an absurd amount, and I'm also trying to reduce possessions with every year that goes.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On July 31 2013 06:22 MarklarMarklarr wrote:
What do you do with books you read, are they from the library or do you buy them?
books is what I own the most of, kind of annoying if I were to move because hundreds of books weigh an absurd amount, and I'm also trying to reduce possessions with every year that goes.
I'm about half and half, moving increasingly towards a heavy library user.
I have 3 bookshelves full of books and I'd have no idea what to do with them if I didn't like in a permanent home. I guess I'll become a fulltime library user if/when I move to another part of the country.
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In my view, in a moral sense, all these things should be free. They are only weakly restricted via the law. I also believe that the artists should be compensated when you feel they have done a good job. Even some producers/publishers should be compensated (when they actually do work such as printing, editing, hosting, marketing, etc.) but certainly not to the extent they are now.
I download at will and donate to the deserving artist/provider whenever I get a chance.
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This is just another part of computer minimalism that is on the rise, and has always been on the rise; making an object that does more, smaller, less heavy, etc. has always been fashionable in recent times it seems. For music, people say that vinyl sounds much better and I feel you with CD's but MP3's are just too easy to stack and keep in a library, books on the other hand is completely different for me. I will not read e-books, I'll do anything to not read e-books, they aren't at all like the the physical experience.
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This is why:
We can't legally have nice things without having not so nice things.
We can't have a perfect world.
SOPA and similar builds were attempted but failed for the most part.
But yeah, I want to have music that I can buy that takes as much space as a key. Heck, if it can attach to a keychain or similar device all the better!
I would also like the above for movies... >.>
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I know this might be a minor gripe, but is anyone else bothered by the OP spelling disc as disqs?
Really distracting.
Anyway, as for the topic, I think keeping your surroundings free of clutter helps a lot, I'm leaning towards subscription service or all digital mediums.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On July 31 2013 11:19 DarkNetHunter wrote:
I know this might be a minor gripe, but is anyone else bothered by the OP spelling disc as disqs?
Really distracting.
Anyway, as for the topic, I think keeping your surroundings free of clutter helps a lot, I'm leaning towards subscription service or all digital mediums.
ok now I'm really confused. The original text file has all of the words as "disk", the blog post on my site says disk, but when I copy pasted from my blog to TL, my browser changed all of them to "disq". I know that my OS is set to British region settings so perhaps it spellchecked everything?
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Ripping music discs is so nostalgic. I still have a few wma tracks in my laptop which was ripped 10 years ago in 64kbps bitrate (because Microsoft said it's twice smaller and sounded better than the typical 128kbps mp3). Ive never felt that glorious again in buying digital m4a these days.
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On July 31 2013 03:58 thedeadhaji wrote:I think you bring up a great point: going from cds to mp3s doesn't alter the consumption experience much at all, but going from books to ebooks dramatically alters the experience (I am partial to physical books as well and continue to buy books and borrow physical copies from the library). Never thought of the previous medium transfers. Guess this is nothing new
It depends on the person. I value a book for what is writtin within, not the cover and/or having the feel of holding a book in my hands. So to me, the consumption experience isn't changed at all, because holding a book (I know some get that good feeling about it) has no value to me.
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On July 31 2013 03:45 thedeadhaji wrote:
It means that we can burn another CD so that we have one copy in the living room and one in the car. It also means that we can rip a MP3 legally for our PCs and portable music players of our choice. But once we throw the physical disks away, we immediately lose these rights since we no longer have this physical object which has a secondary purpose (after the sound data itself) of of providing us with the right to reproduce the recording for personal use. If for one reason or another we are prosecuted for having digital copies created from these disks, we have no way of defening ourselves once we've throws the physical disks away.
I think Publishers would argue that you are already breaking the law by creating a burned copy of a disc.
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People definitely scan books, mostly not fiction books, but expensive and/or large textbooks e.g. for medicine, science, etc. Some specialised textbooks costs hundreds of dollars, weigh a few kilos, and you might only use it for 4 weeks and then never again. Also the local library might only have one copy that's 2 editions too old, and 30+ of you might need to read a chapter or two from it during a short period or for an assignment. Scanning textbooks whole or in part is definitely a thing.
Even if you buy a legit copy, some textbooks come with a free pdf version, which people load onto their ipads or whatever to carry with them so they can look up things by the bedside.
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On July 31 2013 15:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 03:45 thedeadhaji wrote:
It means that we can burn another CD so that we have one copy in the living room and one in the car. It also means that we can rip a MP3 legally for our PCs and portable music players of our choice. But once we throw the physical disks away, we immediately lose these rights since we no longer have this physical object which has a secondary purpose (after the sound data itself) of of providing us with the right to reproduce the recording for personal use. If for one reason or another we are prosecuted for having digital copies created from these disks, we have no way of defening ourselves once we've throws the physical disks away.
I think Publishers would argue that you are already breaking the law by creating a burned copy of a disc.
In Germany its allowed to copy your own CD/DVD for yourself and even friends/family. Its called a private copy :o
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I own an extensive collection of CDs and never would think of getting rid of them , not because of the rights , but because i love to put a CD in the jukebox in the saloon when doing things , and open the booklets that come with them and read lyrics/see the artwork.
I love to see the process that the guys put into it , especially with some bands the production makes the CD feel special (like Baroness Blue/Red/Yellow albums , they are still a thing to behold art wise).
I can understand the convenience of Grooveshark/ others though... but you get nostalgia in those CDs! :D
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Not related to the CD thing (I've been a rotten person Napster became The Thing) much but on the subject of books... I've been an avid reader basically my entire life, 25 now, and I feel like a minority who actually really likes the whole ebook thing. But I'm oftentimes reclusive and sit in my dark room at night, so digital backlighting of screens is really convenient for me even if it is probably not so great on my eyes.
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Not sure what the OP is worried about. Even the most bizarre and unknown musicians have had their stuff shared online. I practically gurantee no matter how bizarre the shit you listen to is, you'll be able to find it. The internet set music free for good or for worse.
You're worried that the evil copyright lawyers will sue you without a proof of purchase? Well did you save that 90s receipt? No? Well what difference does it make? The stuff is still available and will be available forever.
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On July 31 2013 21:53 beef42 wrote:
Not sure what the OP is worried about. Even the most bizarre and unknown musicians have had their stuff shared online. I practically gurantee no matter how bizarre the shit you listen to is, you'll be able to find it. The internet set music free for good or for worse.
You're worried that the evil copyright lawyers will sue you without a proof of purchase? Well did you save that 90s receipt? No? Well what difference does it make? The stuff is still available and will be available forever.
It will still be illegal though... And for some people that is still a thing to care about.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I would never be able to chuck away any of my old discs, I have a whole bunch of discs I ripped then burnt to a CD for my walkman back when I was 8 and I would never be able to part with any of them.
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Are the CDs in a binder, or jewelboxes? Moving to a binder would cut down on the physical space problem in a big way.
I went through the same thing with my DVD collection. I wanted the disks, because I paid for them, but I pretty much have to rip DVDs or my kids would end up destroying them.
I made two piles. Things I wanted to keep went into a binder, the cases got recycled. Everything I'd never watch again went to a thrift store. (Mostly bargain-bin "watch once"s or gifts.) My whole movie collection fits in one binder. I have a friend that's a CD fanatic, and her whole collection fits in 3 binders. It's something like 300 CDs, and it all fits on the coffee table. When people come over they can flip through them, easier than looking at jewelboxes even.
So, maybe keep an eye out for cheap binders.
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On July 31 2013 06:24 thedeadhaji wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 06:22 MarklarMarklarr wrote:
What do you do with books you read, are they from the library or do you buy them?
books is what I own the most of, kind of annoying if I were to move because hundreds of books weigh an absurd amount, and I'm also trying to reduce possessions with every year that goes. I'm about half and half, moving increasingly towards a heavy library user. I have 3 bookshelves full of books and I'd have no idea what to do with them if I didn't like in a permanent home. I guess I'll become a fulltime library user if/when I move to another part of the country.
Man, I hear that fellow academic. I made my own bookcase 3-4 months ago and it's already full. "Oh, I don't need a sixth shelf." How naive. Going to suck when I finally finish this degree and move.
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I threw out a ton of CDs a while back. Just ripped them into .wav and kept the little lyrics booklets / artwork. In my mind I'm trading a physical copy for a digital license, sort of how that company you mentioned takes your books and gives you scans. And also, most vinyl records come with a free download nowadays, so it's not like there isn't a precedent.
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I can't be bothered with non-digital media now, it's just such a massive waste of space and in so many cases is actually inferior.
I have walls lined with books, and I'm getting rid of them slowly since my Kindle is
A) Brighter
B) Has adjustable font
C) Withstands multiple readings without its spine breaking
D) Doesn't tear
E) Doesn't have pages that have to be turned physically (thank the gods)
The phrase "Don't judge a book by its cover" is used to apply to humans to say to look past the exterior, so my reverse analogy would be that using a Kindle for books is like being able to directly look into somebody's soul/brain without having to see/deal with the rest of them.
I'm not going to look down on people who still read books, but I will fully admit I don't understand this need for physical possession or the sensation of touching/manipulating a real book. In my opinion, those are the WORST aspects of reading and I'm so very glad I don't have to deal with them.
Edit: Textbooks or encyclopedias are good examples of something that I wouldn't use a Kindle for and would like a physical copy (or an internet version that was fully navigable).
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On August 01 2013 06:42 dcemuser wrote:
I can't be bothered with non-digital media now, it's just such a massive waste of space and in so many cases is actually inferior.
I have walls lined with books, and I'm getting rid of them slowly since my Kindle is
A) Brighter
B) Has adjustable font
C) Withstands multiple readings without its spine breaking
D) Doesn't tear
E) Doesn't have pages that have to be turned physically (thank the gods)
The phrase "Don't judge a book by its cover" is used to apply to humans to say to look past the exterior, so my reverse analogy would be that using a Kindle for books is like being able to directly look into somebody's soul/brain without having to see/deal with the rest of them.
I'm not going to look down on people who still read books, but I will fully admit I don't understand this need for physical possession or the sensation of touching/manipulating a real book. In my opinion, those are the WORST aspects of reading and I'm so very glad I don't have to deal with them.
Edit: Textbooks or encyclopedias are good examples of something that I wouldn't use a Kindle for and would like a physical copy (or an internet version that was fully navigable).
While I agree with you on many points, computer screens are still more damaging for your eyes currently. If you are like me and have a job where you stare at computer screen(s) all day, it is very refreshing for the eyes to look at a book/paper instead of more screens.
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I used to be against ebooks and pdfs and the like, but the reduced burden of carrying around actual physical textbooks (some of which can be very heavy-e.g. most university physics texts) is so nice. The CS department here rarely requires physical books, and often any texts that are required are in PDF form. If I need a physical copy to write on I use the print quota to print off a subset of pages and then recycle that paper as I need it. I've only needed texts for books outside of the CS department lately, and I usually absolve that problem by simply going to the library (which is quite extensive) and borrowing the book from course reserve. If I need problems on hand for later, like for a math problem set, I'll actually just use my phone camera to take pictures of the problems and then look them up in my photo album later when writing the homeworks (which I do on LaTeX and submit via email)
My consumption of paper has gone down, I don't have to carry anything around besides a notebook and some minor other stuff (I use campus PCs which in the CS department are quite fast) and I have less things to remember/forget.
I used to keep good track of my game CDs and stuff but it's becoming a pain the more I move around, which I've done quite often recently. I even lost my original AoE2 CD which I thought I'd keep forever. Those are nice for nostalgic purposes but nowadays with increased hard disk space there's no practical reason to have those either. The only thing I'd really like on removable media is a copy of my OS in case I need to do a clean install.
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EPT
