EPTDvorak + Kinesis Keyboard - Page 2
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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Marimokkori
United States306 Posts
Keyboard layouts and people who use them != companies. No one is selling Dvorak or Colemak, and no one is buying them - they are totally free. There are so many stories about the history of QWERTY it's hard not to be misinformed. And the purpose isn't simply medical. It's just... more efficient compared to QWERTY in pretty much every aspect. And that just happens to have potential health benefits, ie reduced strain due to less finger movement. Saying that Dvorak might feel better because you are going at 40wpm vs 90 with QWERTY doesn't really make sense because anyone who sticks with the new layout for any decent period of time will reach similar speeds and still say it is more comfortable to use. I'm not sure how much the placebo effect comes in to play, but I suppose it's possible...? Not sure how long that effect could last though. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On a time/practice basis, people achieved higher speeds in dvorak faster and easier than they would with qwerty. This is not a placebo effect because a placebo doesn't take place when you are working at your limits, and has nothing to do with typing slower reducing the risk of rsi. However the side effect of an efficient and properly designed layout, is less stress on your hands. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 30 2013 09:02 Jibba wrote: Again, mechanical claims that are untied to evidence. This is how you sell golf clubs. I played golf semi-seriously, and golf clubs make a huge difference to accuracy and power depending on what you are after. This is extremely noticeable, its nothing like the difference of a mechanical vs membrane keyboard. If you played a lot of golf, you would know what I'm talking about. The difference was going from being a non-competitive player to a competitive one in highschool. Even just a good driver for me would go from hitting outside the fairway non-stop to hitting the green off the tee on a par 4 hole. You can't placebo your tee shot length, or how much the ball curves mid air over many hits. If you don't have to hit as hard to get the ball where you wanna go, you are going to be a hell of a lot more accurate. Of course like with anything, if you are terrible, nothing is going to make a difference, and middle aged super recreational players who never practice, are usually the ones that have the money to buy these things. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
In fact, outside of Dvorak's own poorly conducted and doctored study, I don't believe the speed claim has ever been proven in Dvorak's favor. Look at the studies conducted afterwards by the US military, Australian Post Office, IBM and Oregon State University. The speed claim is actually the weakest of them all. They're all within a couple % above or below each other. While Dvorak requires less distance, it's worse with regards to hand alteration since it favors the right hand more than QWERTY favors the left. Some believe hand alteration is the largest driver of typing speed, but I haven't seen much for that either. All I've seen is that they both have comparable performance after 100+ hours of training. Again, distance traveled is a poor indicator because you still have to pay attention to which finger is making a movement and in what direction the movement is made. And for the RSI claim, you'd also have to show that distance is the main contributor to RSI and not something like angle instead. It's not like this is a difficult study to do. Keyboarding is super easy to conduct and of the 5+ that have been done on this subject, there's just not much to show for it. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 30 2013 11:40 Jibba wrote: It's not that there aren't good clubs and bad clubs. It's that differentiating between good clubs and bad clubs based on manufacturer claims of SCIENCE is impossible because they describe mechanical features that sound good but may actually be meaningless. That is what I mean. In fact, outside of Dvorak's own poorly conducted and doctored study, I don't believe the speed claim has ever been proven in Dvorak's favor. Look at the studies conducted afterwards by the US military, Australian Post Office, IBM and Oregon State University. The speed claim is actually the weakest of them all. They're all within a couple % above or below each other. Again, distance traveled is a poor indicator because you still have to pay attention to which finger is making a movement and in what direction the movement is made. And for the RSI claim, you'd also have to show that distance is the main contributor to RSI and not something like angle instead. Hmmm, although I haven't seen the studies, the biggest problem with them might be the fact that these people are either not serious about learning dvorak or are not serious typists. These kinds of studies would be very difficult to do. I think the best you could get is get the worlds fastest dvorak and qwerty typists and measure them. So far the official world record holder is a dvorak user. Wikipedia In 1933, Dvorak started entering typists trained on his keyboard into the International Commercial Schools Contest, which were typing contests sponsored by typewriter manufacturers consisting of professional and amateur contests. The professional contests had typists sponsored by typewriter companies to advertise their machines. Ten times from 1934–41, Dvorak's typists won first in their class events. In the 1935 contest alone, nine Dvorak typists won twenty awards. Dvorak typists were so successful that in 1937 the Contest Committee barred Dvorak's typists for being "unfair competition" until Dvorak protested. In addition, QWERTY typists did not want to be placed near Dvorak typists because QWERTY typists were disconcerted by the noise produced from the fast typing speeds made by Dvorak typists.[11] In the 1930s, the Tacoma, Washington, school district ran an experimental program in typing to determine whether to hold Dvorak layout classes. The experiment used 2,700 students to learn the Dvorak layout, and the district found that the Dvorak layout students learned the keyboard in one-third the time it took to learn QWERTY. When a new school board was elected, however, it chose to close the Dvorak layout classes.[11] Writer Barbara Blackburn was the fastest English language typist in the world, according to The Guinness Book of World Records. Using the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard, she was able to maintain 150 words per minute (wpm) for 50 minutes, and 170 wpm for shorter periods. She has been clocked at a peak speed of 212 wpm. Blackburn, who failed her QWERTY typing class in high school, first encountered the Dvorak keyboard in 1938, quickly learned to achieve very high speeds, and occasionally toured giving speed-typing demonstrations during her secretarial career. Blackburn died in April 2008.[12] From what I've seen typists who use dvorak see very noticeable gains. To me it just wouldn't make sense if it didn't. There is a section about alternating hands, dvorak does this better, there are also 3 kinds of dvorak layouts. The QWERTY layout has more than 3,000 words that are typed on the left hand alone and about 300 words that are typed on the right hand alone (the aforementioned word "minimum" is a right-hand-only word). In contrast, with the Dvorak layout, only a few words are typed using only the left hand and even fewer with the right hand. + Show Spoiler + Keyboard strokes [edit] Touch typing requires a typist to rest their fingers in the home row (QWERTY row starting with "ASDF"). The more strokes there are in the home row, the less movement the fingers must do, thus allowing a typist to type faster, more accurately, and with less strain to the hand and fingers. Motion picture studies prove not only that typing is done fastest in the home row, but also typing is the slowest on the bottom row. If the fingers must move, it is easier to move them up to the top row (QWERTY row starting with "QWERTY") rather than down to the bottom row (QWERTY row starting with "ZXCV"). It is notable that the vast majority of the Dvorak layout's key strokes (70%) are done in the home row (the easiest row to type because the fingers rest there). In addition, the Dvorak layout requires the fewest strokes on the bottom row (the most difficult row to type). On the other hand, QWERTY requires typists to move their fingers to the top row for a majority of strokes and has only 32% of the strokes done in the home row.[20] Because the Dvorak layout concentrates the vast majority of key strokes to the home row, the Dvorak layout uses about 63% of the finger motion required by QWERTY, thus making the Dvorak layout more ergonomic.[21] Because the Dvorak layout requires less finger motion from the typist compared to QWERTY, many users with repetitive strain injuries have reported that switching from QWERTY to Dvorak alleviated or even eliminated their repetitive strain injuries.[22][23] The typing loads between hands differs for each of the keyboard layouts. On QWERTY keyboards, 56% of the typing strokes are done by the left hand. As the left hand is weaker for the majority of people, the Dvorak keyboard puts the more often used keys on the right hand side, thereby having 56% of the typing strokes done by the right hand.[20] Awkward strokes [edit] Awkward strokes are undesirable because they slow down typing, increase typing errors, and increase finger strain. Hurdling is an awkward stroke requiring a single finger to jump directly from one row, over the home row to another row (e.g., typing "minimum" (which often comes out as "minimun" or "mimimum") on the QWERTY keyboard).[24] In the English language, there are about 1,200 words that require a hurdle on the QWERTY layout. In contrast, there is only a handful of words requiring a hurdle on the Dvorak layout and even fewer requiring a double hurdle.[24][25] Hand alternation [edit] Alternating hands while typing is a desirable trait because while one hand is typing a letter, the other hand can get in position to type the next letter. Thus, a typist may fall into a steady rhythm and type quickly. However, when a string of letters is done with the same hand, the chances of stuttering are increased and a rhythm can be broken, thus decreasing speed and increasing errors and fatigue. The QWERTY layout has more than 3,000 words that are typed on the left hand alone and about 300 words that are typed on the right hand alone (the aforementioned word "minimum" is a right-hand-only word). In contrast, with the Dvorak layout, only a few words are typed using only the left hand and even fewer with the right hand.[20] This is because a syllable requires at least one vowel, and all the vowels (and "y") fall on the left side of the keyboard. http://www.dvorak-keyboards.com/Dvorak_vs_qwerty_keyboard_tests.htm ![[image loading]](http://www.dvorak-keyboards.com/keyboard_comparason_string.jpg) Finally, for the curious, a visual comparison between the movement patterns in typing the same paragraph A, in both Dvorak, and Qwerty, using the efficient movement patterns described above. The thread is like a track, or record of the least finger movement required to type the text of this 62 word paragraph. There is 35% less movement with the Dvorak, than with Qwerty. If one counts the movement of different typing habits of different people, as above, then the actual range is between 35% and 50% Although you may find very fast qwerty typists, dvorak also seems to perform much better on longer and more difficult pieces. Which probably explains why in online websites, the difference between the two is much closer compared to official records. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
It begins with the first major myth "The existing keyboard was designed experimentally by Christopher Sholes, the inventor of the typewriter, to slow the typist down, because the keys in his 1873 machine fell back into place by gravity." and the rest of it is just repeating the claims that Dvorak made in his papers. His methodology was garbage, however, and he did a lot of manipulation to help his case. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
The images and the associated text did not come from wikipedia, and the guiness book of records nor the typing competitions were held by dvorak. While there are many sources cited on the Wiki article, not just that one, I gave another link which also demonstrates the same theory showing a practical experiment and is not based off a study. | ||
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On May 30 2013 11:40 Jibba wrote: It's not that there aren't good clubs and bad clubs. It's that differentiating between good clubs and bad clubs based on manufacturer claims of SCIENCE is impossible because they describe mechanical features that sound good but may actually be meaningless. That is what I mean. I agree on this regard, and a lot of the year-over-year "improvements" in golf club performance do seem dubious. But there are real advances that have been made over the last few decades. Forged muscleback irons are far less forgiving of off-center hits compared to modern or mid-90s cavity back irons, for instance. As for the qwerfy/dvorak debate, I honestly don't know what is "the truth" but this setup has helped my RSI issues so if any of you have the misfortune of developing such issues in the future, I urge you to give it a shot. This keyboard is quite expensive (almost $300) but I'm happy to pay that to increase my odds of being able to continue typing (since I enjoy writing and I think I'd have a hard time professionally without being able to type painlessly) | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 30 2013 13:21 T0fuuu wrote: How did this thread turn from "this new keyboard and layout has done wonders for my rsi" to "you are wrong and were sold snake oil cos there is no objective evidence that your keyboard/layout is better than a qwerty dell keyboard and im going to disregard your personal experience." Its like you came here just to shit on OP's new purchase. Like if someone bought a new mouse and someone went off on a tangent about how laser technology is crap and their is no ergonomic benefit to those grips cos the razer guide on mouse grips isnt medically researched. Laser mice sensors are crap and you shouldn't waste money on them over an optical. It's to inform people, because there's so much misleading information floating around, particularly with regards to things that purport medical advantage. And Haji didn't waste money on the keyboard. The Kinesis is great for dealing with wrist issues, and I've recommended it on TL before. I'm really glad it's working for him. We're talking about configuration, which is only a matter of time investment and moving keycaps around, and for that I think a discussion is fine. This is a discussion forum, not a place for plugs, so I think someone should present a counterargument if the subject at hand might convince people to sacrifice typing ability for a month+. Finally, I never said it was a bad configuration, I said the claims about its outright universal superiority are questionable. I doubt there's a singular set up that's best for every person's biomechanics. | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
What do you do about hotkeys like ctrl+c and ctrl+v? It's a pain to have to reach to the i and . positions on the keyboard. Dvorak is also less efficient on touchpad keyboards such as on your smartphone. Ironically the reasons that make qwerty worse than dvorak on a keyboard make it great on touchpads I also feel like a dumbass when I have to look at the keyboard in CS lab courses ^_^ | ||
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nounaut
Sweden10 Posts
Even if the fastest person in the world uses a certain layout it does not make for a large enough statistical sample to prove anything. That being said, Sean Wrona uses QWERTY and has been recorded exceeding 170wpm for a 50 minute period, and being able to peak at 256wpm, so the argument would be kind of mute anyway, I guess. (Ultimate Typing Championship winner 2010 http://seanwrona.com/) I used dvorak for a couple of months in highschool but my personal experience, aswell as most of the information I could find, suggested that no real speed increases could be gained if you were already above ~350cpm (dunno what wpm that translates to).. To me, again just my personal experience, having to mentally switch everytime I sat down at another computer wasn't worth the effort as I didn't notice any gain whatsoever, sitting at around 120wpm. I also suffer from RSI, primarily on my ring and little fingers aswell as the wrists, and have started looking more and more into ways to relieve the symptoms. In my opinion switches and physical layout (distance, height, angles etc.) have a much greater impact than switching between qwerty/dvorak would have. I haven't tried any of the layouts that are actually designed to ease stress on the fingers, such as colemak, but might give it a go if finger yoga doesn't help  | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On May 30 2013 14:15 Jibba wrote:Finally, I never said it was a bad configuration, I said the claims about its outright universal superiority are questionable. I doubt there's a singular set up that's best for every person's biomechanics. No one is preventing you from making your own keyboard setup after all. If you can do better, then do. Besides there are improved version of Dvorak that keeps the name only because of history. For once the Bepo keyboard is created for french specifically and looks better than both dvorak-fr and azerty. | ||
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buddahbrot
Germany47 Posts
In my opinion the primary reason for switching shouldn't be hoping to increase your speed but the ergonomics. For me it feels more balanced and rounded whereas touch typing on QWERTY is a mess with fingers going everywhere. It's noticeable that your fingers move less with Dvorak, you can stay on the home row more often and if you have to reach out for a key it's mostly on the more easily reachable upper row. Additionaly, on OS X there is a layout that switches back to QWERTY whenever you press command so that shortcuts like copying, pasting and exiting programs can still be used with the left hand only. My roommate has switched to a layout called NEO, which also follows the premise of more logical key arrangements and offers more layers to quickly access mathematical symbols and greek letters. His conclusions are basically the same as mine, not necessarily an increase in speed but in comfort and ergonomics. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I'm currently typing in AZERTY with a French layout, which is really sucky for programming, I intended to switch to qwerty because that's already more convenient, and straight-forward, but I might as well switch to dvorak directly right? | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On May 30 2013 22:39 buddahbrot wrote: In my opinion the primary reason for switching shouldn't be hoping to increase your speed but the ergonomics. For me it feels more balanced and rounded whereas touch typing on QWERTY is a mess with fingers going everywhere. It's noticeable that your fingers move less with Dvorak, you can stay on the home row more often and if you have to reach out for a key it's mostly on the more easily reachable upper row. Yup I've definitely noticed these points!  Additionaly, on OS X there is a layout that switches back to QWERTY whenever you press command so that shortcuts like copying, pasting and exiting programs can still be used with the left hand only. Good point. On May 30 2013 15:19 GhostKorean wrote: Fellow Dvorak user here: What do you do about hotkeys like ctrl+c and ctrl+v? It's a pain to have to reach to the i and . positions on the keyboard. Dvorak is also less efficient on touchpad keyboards such as on your smartphone. Ironically the reasons that make qwerty worse than dvorak on a keyboard make it great on touchpads I also feel like a dumbass when I have to look at the keyboard in CS lab courses ^_^ Being an emacs user, I naturally like to have both hands on the keyboard and minimize mouse time. So C-c and C-v are done with both hands for me. The kineis keyboard has the left Ctrl key on the left thumb so this kind of two handed shortcut feels pretty natural. | ||
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
On May 30 2013 15:19 GhostKorean wrote: Fellow Dvorak user here: What do you do about hotkeys like ctrl+c and ctrl+v? It's a pain to have to reach to the i and . positions on the keyboard. Dvorak is also less efficient on touchpad keyboards such as on your smartphone. Ironically the reasons that make qwerty worse than dvorak on a keyboard make it great on touchpads I also feel like a dumbass when I have to look at the keyboard in CS lab courses ^_^ I use my left hand + right ctrl for those. It is not ideal, but I have gotten used to it. There are programs that switch the layout but keep the hotkeys the same. I have not used them because of the silly reason they might conflict with games, but I know that is a bad excuse since you can just switch it off. | ||
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HereBeDragons
1429 Posts
Overall, I make more mistakes as I keep switching between languages, and it doesn't help much that I've never learned proper touch typing. I still glance at my keyboard from time to time. | ||
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