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Active: 1159 users

Things to do in LA, Vegas and NYC?

Blogs > Bockit
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Bockit
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sydney2287 Posts
October 22 2012 12:29 GMT
#1
Hello, Hello Team Liquid.

I'm travelling to the US for 2 weeks in a couple of weeks, a night in LA for a basketball game, followed by a week in Vegas with 2 other mates, and a week solo in NY.

We're looking at things to do in Vegas and NY. We've got a large list of the usual stuff to do but it would be great to get advice from some locals. Naturally, I turn to TL.

In Vegas, we're looking for advice on the nightlife from people who know. What are the big nights for some clubs, what clubs should we avoid, where should we most definitely go? Also, I've wondered if there are any ... for lack of a better phrase, dune sports? Like.. places where people go and muck around at sand dunes. I have no idea if this is even a thing and it probably sounds dumb haha.

In NY, I'm open to all ideas for places to see and things to do. I'm staying in Manhattan, and one day I'll be travelling to DC for the day for sightseeing and probably visiting the Smithsonian, but otherwise it's 6 nights Friday to Friday (I arrive on a Friday night). What's a great thing to do on my first Friday night in NY?

Any and all advice is appreciated, and thanks to anyone who can contribute!

***
Their are four errors in this sentance.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24709 Posts
October 22 2012 13:22 GMT
#2
Visiting DC from NYC for the day? That's one heck of a day trip. What is your method of travel?
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
jpak
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States5045 Posts
October 22 2012 13:26 GMT
#3
Try to venture outside of Manhattan if you can, especially into Brooklyn and Queens.
CJ Entusman #50! #1 클템 fan TL!
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
October 22 2012 13:32 GMT
#4
What do you enjoy doing? "Open to all ideas" doesn't really help.

I can give you a pretty good list of restaurants for NYC (and DC), if that's your thing, I need to know your budget and preferences in terms of cuisines. NYC also has many museums, and you can easily spend a day in each of the major ones (and smaller ones too).
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9947 Posts
October 22 2012 13:34 GMT
#5
Go to the Comedy Cellar in manhattan, and like jpak mentioned try experiencing nightlife right outside manhattan (eg Williamsburg/Bushwick)
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
SnipedSoul
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2158 Posts
October 22 2012 13:44 GMT
#6
Museum of Natural History in Manhattan is badass as fuck.
il0seonpurpose
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Korea (South)5638 Posts
October 22 2012 14:40 GMT
#7
Are you going to a Lakers or Clippers game? Either way, should be exciting!
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28091 Posts
October 22 2012 14:41 GMT
#8
Hit up the teamliquid HQ in NY(it is in NY right?).
Administrator
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
October 22 2012 15:27 GMT
#9
For Vegas - find out as much as you can about what your hotel offers. Most of the clubs and restaurants I've visited there were all inside the major hotel-casinos. Often, going to a restaurant will get you free cover into some night club etc (i.e. we visited the palms and ate at the n9ne steakhouse and got into the ghostbar for free). A lot depends on your budget too...

Too bad you're not staying on the west coast longer... There are good dunes to muck around in :D
ParkwayDrive
Profile Joined July 2011
United States328 Posts
October 22 2012 15:55 GMT
#10
try google..........

type and activity, food, anything youre interested in followed by the city on google search and youll find all sorts of stuff


youd really want to rely on this sorry community to plan your vacation?
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9157 Posts
October 22 2012 16:19 GMT
#11
IPL 5 in Vegas is in a 'few weeks' technically. If you are in Vegas during that weekend, a whole lot of Team Liquid people are going to be there.
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-22 17:22:10
October 22 2012 17:21 GMT
#12
Gotta get some in-n-out while you're in so-cal! I remember when I was at NASL S1 finals, all the Korean players at one point, went to the near-by in-n-out for lunch.
liftlift > tsm
ParkwayDrive
Profile Joined July 2011
United States328 Posts
October 22 2012 18:02 GMT
#13
o man dat in and out. only time i went to vegas was for 3 days for my 21st and i had in n out 5 times.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24709 Posts
October 22 2012 21:08 GMT
#14
On October 23 2012 00:55 ParkwayDrive wrote:
try google..........

type and activity, food, anything youre interested in followed by the city on google search and youll find all sorts of stuff


youd really want to rely on this sorry community to plan your vacation?

What makes it a sorry community? The nice thing about a large community is we all have different areas of specialization. This applies to travel as much as it does other topics. For almost anywhere you want to travel, users have been there or live there, and will give inside info that a typical google search or travel agent wouldn't necessarily provide. Also, if you enjoy meetups you can find out about TL meetups in that area.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Bockit
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sydney2287 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-23 11:32:48
October 23 2012 11:32 GMT
#15
Thanks for all the suggestions so far, it's quite helpful.

On October 22 2012 22:22 micronesia wrote:
Visiting DC from NYC for the day? That's one heck of a day trip. What is your method of travel?


There are shuttle flights between Washington DC and NY that take roughly an hour, I was told orginally for roughly $100 return but it is probably $200 after looking it up. Probably booking that tonight.

On October 22 2012 22:32 Cambium wrote:
What do you enjoy doing? "Open to all ideas" doesn't really help.

I can give you a pretty good list of restaurants for NYC (and DC), if that's your thing, I need to know your budget and preferences in terms of cuisines. NYC also has many museums, and you can easily spend a day in each of the major ones (and smaller ones too).


Fair call. I really enjoy eating haha, I'm eager to sightsee but most of the stuff I'd see I think is covered already by google / general knowledge. If anyone has often-overlooked stuff that would be cool though. I've never left Australia so sightseeing is something I don't think I could say I've ever done. If I were to pick a favourite cuisine it would be Italian but also quite enjoy Thai, Indian, a decent burger or steak, most seafood. Budget, normally cap at around $50 meal for a dinner out at home, it's usually much less ($20-30). Being on holiday, I'm willing to go higher than that, but unlikely to go for somehting that will cost > $150. Not including drinks with the food btw.

In the day I'm keen to visit some museums, I saw a couple of natural history museum suggestions here and from other friends, which is cool. In DC I was thinking of visiting 'the smithsonian', I realise there are so many different ones I can visit, but I haven't worked that out yet. Open to suggestions. Historical/Cultural and Natural are probably my preferences.

I'd love to experience some sports we just don't get in Australia, e.g. ice hockey if there are likely to be any games? Is the season begun? Are there ice hockey games in NY?

Nights, I'd like to visit clubs, bars, anything open street? What are the major hubs for nightlife in NY?



What are the dates for IPL? I'll be in Vegas 3rd to 9th.


On October 22 2012 22:44 SnipedSoul wrote:
Museum of Natural History in Manhattan is badass as fuck.


Quite a few people have recommended this now, it's definitely going to happen.

On October 22 2012 23:40 il0seonpurpose wrote:
Are you going to a Lakers or Clippers game? Either way, should be exciting!


Lakers! On the 2nd.

On October 22 2012 23:41 TheEmulator wrote:
Hit up the teamliquid HQ in NY(it is in NY right?).


That's the plan

On October 23 2012 00:27 y0su wrote:
For Vegas - find out as much as you can about what your hotel offers. Most of the clubs and restaurants I've visited there were all inside the major hotel-casinos. Often, going to a restaurant will get you free cover into some night club etc (i.e. we visited the palms and ate at the n9ne steakhouse and got into the ghostbar for free). A lot depends on your budget too...

Too bad you're not staying on the west coast longer... There are good dunes to muck around in :D


Ahh, I knew it was a thing! Next time I travel to the US I'll hopefully be able to stay longer and visit more places.

Ghost bar is one of the clubs we definitely want to visit, if only for the alleged view, so that sounds like a good plan, thanks for the tip

On October 23 2012 00:55 ParkwayDrive wrote:
try google..........

type and activity, food, anything youre interested in followed by the city on google search and youll find all sorts of stuff


youd really want to rely on this sorry community to plan your vacation?


Micronesia summed it up pretty well. I of course did google, speak to others, look at guide books etc. But imo nothing beats speaking directly (or at least as directly as we can achieve here) to people who live in or have travelled the areas. I have no reason to think the TL community is a sorry group.

On October 23 2012 02:21 wei2coolman wrote:
Gotta get some in-n-out while you're in so-cal! I remember when I was at NASL S1 finals, all the Korean players at one point, went to the near-by in-n-out for lunch.


Haha, well as I said earlier I'm a fan of a decent burger, so I'll try it out, in the name of science.

On October 22 2012 22:26 jpak wrote:
Try to venture outside of Manhattan if you can, especially into Brooklyn and Queens.

On October 22 2012 22:34 RaGe wrote:
Go to the Comedy Cellar in manhattan, and like jpak mentioned try experiencing nightlife right outside manhattan (eg Williamsburg/Bushwick)


I was planning to explore the surrounding burroughs (sp? do people even call them that haha, I'm basing this off what I read online) but hadn't really thought about their nightlife. This is greatly helpful, thanks.

Thanks again to everyone, this is muchly appreciated!
Their are four errors in this sentance.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-23 12:11:15
October 23 2012 12:08 GMT
#16
On October 23 2012 20:32 Bockit wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions so far, it's quite helpful.

Show nested quote +
On October 22 2012 22:32 Cambium wrote:
What do you enjoy doing? "Open to all ideas" doesn't really help.

I can give you a pretty good list of restaurants for NYC (and DC), if that's your thing, I need to know your budget and preferences in terms of cuisines. NYC also has many museums, and you can easily spend a day in each of the major ones (and smaller ones too).


Fair call. I really enjoy eating haha, I'm eager to sightsee but most of the stuff I'd see I think is covered already by google / general knowledge. If anyone has often-overlooked stuff that would be cool though. I've never left Australia so sightseeing is something I don't think I could say I've ever done. If I were to pick a favourite cuisine it would be Italian but also quite enjoy Thai, Indian, a decent burger or steak, most seafood. Budget, normally cap at around $50 meal for a dinner out at home, it's usually much less ($20-30). Being on holiday, I'm willing to go higher than that, but unlikely to go for somehting that will cost > $150. Not including drinks with the food btw.

In the day I'm keen to visit some museums, I saw a couple of natural history museum suggestions here and from other friends, which is cool. In DC I was thinking of visiting 'the smithsonian', I realise there are so many different ones I can visit, but I haven't worked that out yet. Open to suggestions. Historical/Cultural and Natural are probably my preferences.

I'd love to experience some sports we just don't get in Australia, e.g. ice hockey if there are likely to be any games? Is the season begun? Are there ice hockey games in NY?

Nights, I'd like to visit clubs, bars, anything open street? What are the major hubs for nightlife in NY?


When you pick restaurants, I highly suggest yelp.com . Picking random restaurants will likely result in disappointment, so I strongly suggest picking where you want to eat ahead of time on review sites.

Best Italian food I've had in NY was at Marea, conveniently located near Columbus Circle. It was in fact one of my most memorable meals (I've stayed there a total of one year almost and ate out a lot). The price point isn't that bad, you can get prix fixe lunch for $50 I think, and dinner is $95. Or you can order their pastas a-la-carte, and they are about $30 a plate. Another decent Italian restaurant is Del Posto, and I heard good things about Babbo (both opened by Mario Batali) but I've never gone. You can also go to Little Italy (right beside Chinatown) and try out random restaurants there, an entree pasta is probably around 15-25$ depending on the restaurant.

None of the Thai restaurants really impressed me in NY, some good ones are Room Service and Wondee Siam, both very cheap/reasonable (don't remember exactly how much).

Indian: Don't know.

Pizza: Di Fara

For burgers, I liked the Black Label burger from Minetta Tavern (solid restaurant burger with quality meat), and Shakeshack burgers. Shakshack kind of reminded me of In'N'Out in California. As for steak, if you like porterhouse, I cannot recommend Peter Luger enough. It's one of the very few things that I miss from NY while living in Tokyo.

You can get good decent seafood from Marea (although you should really focus on the pasta here) and Room Service. There are other Japanese and French restaurants that put more emphasis on seafood. Sushi Azabu is not bad, and Jean George and Le Bernardin both have amazingly well executed seafood dishes (unfortunately very very expensive, but lunch should be affordable).

===================

I don't really like Museum of Natural History, but it sounds like it would totally be your thing. I really like MoMA and Guggenheim, and sometimes the Met has really cool exhibitions. Maybe a Broadway show is worth checking out as well.

I spent most of my night-outs in Korea Town, Soho and Meatpacking; it's pretty much what you would expect. I hear a lot of good things about Williamsburg for nightlife, but to my regret, I never went, so maybe someone else can fill you in.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24709 Posts
October 23 2012 13:47 GMT
#17
On October 23 2012 20:32 Bockit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2012 22:22 micronesia wrote:
Visiting DC from NYC for the day? That's one heck of a day trip. What is your method of travel?


There are shuttle flights between Washington DC and NY that take roughly an hour, I was told orginally for roughly $100 return but it is probably $200 after looking it up. Probably booking that tonight.

Keep in mind, getting to the airport will take a while and be a pain in the ass. You will need to get to the airport well in advance of your flight (it's not like taking a train/bus). The flight is close to an hour. Getting from the airport to DC will take a while. Now you don't have much time for DC since you need to spend just as much time getting back to NYC.

It's too much for a single-day trip in my opinion.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
il0seonpurpose
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Korea (South)5638 Posts
October 23 2012 19:03 GMT
#18
Oh that'll be a good game to attend- the budding Clippers vs. the high and mighty Lakers neighborhood brawl. Take lots of pics!
Bockit
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sydney2287 Posts
October 24 2012 11:26 GMT
#19
On October 23 2012 22:47 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2012 20:32 Bockit wrote:
On October 22 2012 22:22 micronesia wrote:
Visiting DC from NYC for the day? That's one heck of a day trip. What is your method of travel?


There are shuttle flights between Washington DC and NY that take roughly an hour, I was told orginally for roughly $100 return but it is probably $200 after looking it up. Probably booking that tonight.

Keep in mind, getting to the airport will take a while and be a pain in the ass. You will need to get to the airport well in advance of your flight (it's not like taking a train/bus). The flight is close to an hour. Getting from the airport to DC will take a while. Now you don't have much time for DC since you need to spend just as much time getting back to NYC.

It's too much for a single-day trip in my opinion.


Hmm ok. I was planning to catch a 7:30/8am flight, and come back late. Maybe I'm not being realistic?


On October 23 2012 21:08 Cambium wrote:
I don't really like Museum of Natural History, but it sounds like it would totally be your thing. I really like MoMA and Guggenheim, and sometimes the Met has really cool exhibitions. Maybe a Broadway show is worth checking out as well.

I spent most of my night-outs in Korea Town, Soho and Meatpacking; it's pretty much what you would expect. I hear a lot of good things about Williamsburg for nightlife, but to my regret, I never went, so maybe someone else can fill you in.


I cannot wait to try some of the places you mentioned Re: museums, a friend has recommended the Met, and my bosses/coworkers MoMA so you at least have great taste. I'll have to see what I can fit in, you're right I'd probably go for Natural History if I can only pick one.

Regarding broadway, I am definitely going to see a broadway show. Tossing up between Lion King, The Book of Mormon, or Phantom, cos, well, you can see my icon

A night out in Williamsburg it most likely is then!
Their are four errors in this sentance.
VenomBRA
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands168 Posts
October 24 2012 12:42 GMT
#20
I always check wikitravel when going somewhere. I often find some really good tips: http://wikitravel.org/en/Los_Angeles
"We got a lot of nothing to say"
Fueled
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1610 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-24 13:04:35
October 24 2012 12:54 GMT
#21
If I were to pick a favourite cuisine it would be Italian

I know you'd probably do this anyway, but you must go to a pizzeria while you're in NYC. North Jersey and NYC have some of the greatest pizza in the world. You'll never have pizza like this anywhere else

And to add to that: have a bagel for breakfast. Perhaps Taylor Ham and Cheese on a bagel? Or maybe Cream Cheese on a bagel? No matter what though, when you're in the NYC area you need to have pizza and bagels.

Gotta love our water
The Wood League - Where a double gas opening can still mean a Marine/SCV all-in
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24709 Posts
October 24 2012 13:40 GMT
#22
On October 24 2012 20:26 Bockit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2012 22:47 micronesia wrote:
On October 23 2012 20:32 Bockit wrote:
On October 22 2012 22:22 micronesia wrote:
Visiting DC from NYC for the day? That's one heck of a day trip. What is your method of travel?


There are shuttle flights between Washington DC and NY that take roughly an hour, I was told orginally for roughly $100 return but it is probably $200 after looking it up. Probably booking that tonight.

Keep in mind, getting to the airport will take a while and be a pain in the ass. You will need to get to the airport well in advance of your flight (it's not like taking a train/bus). The flight is close to an hour. Getting from the airport to DC will take a while. Now you don't have much time for DC since you need to spend just as much time getting back to NYC.

It's too much for a single-day trip in my opinion.


Hmm ok. I was planning to catch a 7:30/8am flight, and come back late. Maybe I'm not being realistic?

You would need to get up at like 4:30am, get over to the airport as soon as possible, leave the airport in DC at 9am, get to your first destination in DC at 10am, tour until 4pm, get to the airport at 5pm, catch a 7pm flight, leave the nyc airport at 8pm, get back to your place 9pm.... I mean if everything goes perfectly it can be done, but it kinda sucks.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-24 13:56:00
October 24 2012 13:52 GMT
#23
On October 24 2012 20:26 Bockit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2012 22:47 micronesia wrote:
On October 23 2012 20:32 Bockit wrote:
On October 22 2012 22:22 micronesia wrote:
Visiting DC from NYC for the day? That's one heck of a day trip. What is your method of travel?


There are shuttle flights between Washington DC and NY that take roughly an hour, I was told orginally for roughly $100 return but it is probably $200 after looking it up. Probably booking that tonight.

Keep in mind, getting to the airport will take a while and be a pain in the ass. You will need to get to the airport well in advance of your flight (it's not like taking a train/bus). The flight is close to an hour. Getting from the airport to DC will take a while. Now you don't have much time for DC since you need to spend just as much time getting back to NYC.

It's too much for a single-day trip in my opinion.


Hmm ok. I was planning to catch a 7:30/8am flight, and come back late. Maybe I'm not being realistic?


Show nested quote +
On October 23 2012 21:08 Cambium wrote:
I don't really like Museum of Natural History, but it sounds like it would totally be your thing. I really like MoMA and Guggenheim, and sometimes the Met has really cool exhibitions. Maybe a Broadway show is worth checking out as well.

I spent most of my night-outs in Korea Town, Soho and Meatpacking; it's pretty much what you would expect. I hear a lot of good things about Williamsburg for nightlife, but to my regret, I never went, so maybe someone else can fill you in.


I cannot wait to try some of the places you mentioned Re: museums, a friend has recommended the Met, and my bosses/coworkers MoMA so you at least have great taste. I'll have to see what I can fit in, you're right I'd probably go for Natural History if I can only pick one.

Regarding broadway, I am definitely going to see a broadway show. Tossing up between Lion King, The Book of Mormon, or Phantom, cos, well, you can see my icon

A night out in Williamsburg it most likely is then!


Book of Mormon gets my vote. I haven't seen it, but all of my friends who did said it was the best Bway show they saw. Tickets could be REALLY hard to get though.

Re: Bagels, if you want to have a decent bagel, try Russ and Daughter on Houston St, after having a smoked salmon and cream cheese bagel there, walk East a few more blocks to have a pastrami Sandwich at Katz Deli, a must visit imo. If you still aren't full, walk down a few more block East to have brunch at Clinton St. Bakery, their pancakes with maple butter are killer. <3 L.E.S.

When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
October 24 2012 13:54 GMT
#24
On October 24 2012 22:40 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 20:26 Bockit wrote:
On October 23 2012 22:47 micronesia wrote:
On October 23 2012 20:32 Bockit wrote:
On October 22 2012 22:22 micronesia wrote:
Visiting DC from NYC for the day? That's one heck of a day trip. What is your method of travel?


There are shuttle flights between Washington DC and NY that take roughly an hour, I was told orginally for roughly $100 return but it is probably $200 after looking it up. Probably booking that tonight.

Keep in mind, getting to the airport will take a while and be a pain in the ass. You will need to get to the airport well in advance of your flight (it's not like taking a train/bus). The flight is close to an hour. Getting from the airport to DC will take a while. Now you don't have much time for DC since you need to spend just as much time getting back to NYC.

It's too much for a single-day trip in my opinion.


Hmm ok. I was planning to catch a 7:30/8am flight, and come back late. Maybe I'm not being realistic?

You would need to get up at like 4:30am, get over to the airport as soon as possible, leave the airport in DC at 9am, get to your first destination in DC at 10am, tour until 4pm, get to the airport at 5pm, catch a 7pm flight, leave the nyc airport at 8pm, get back to your place 9pm.... I mean if everything goes perfectly it can be done, but it kinda sucks.


The bus (very cheap) is about 3 hours iirc, and train (expensive) is very convenient as well. Both beat short-haul flights by miles.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Fueled
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1610 Posts
October 24 2012 13:57 GMT
#25
walk East a few more blocks to have a pastrami Sandwich at Katz Deli, a must visit imo.

This x100

You may not want to leave NYC after eating there.
The Wood League - Where a double gas opening can still mean a Marine/SCV all-in
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24709 Posts
October 24 2012 14:13 GMT
#26
On October 24 2012 22:54 Cambium wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2012 22:40 micronesia wrote:
On October 24 2012 20:26 Bockit wrote:
On October 23 2012 22:47 micronesia wrote:
On October 23 2012 20:32 Bockit wrote:
On October 22 2012 22:22 micronesia wrote:
Visiting DC from NYC for the day? That's one heck of a day trip. What is your method of travel?


There are shuttle flights between Washington DC and NY that take roughly an hour, I was told orginally for roughly $100 return but it is probably $200 after looking it up. Probably booking that tonight.

Keep in mind, getting to the airport will take a while and be a pain in the ass. You will need to get to the airport well in advance of your flight (it's not like taking a train/bus). The flight is close to an hour. Getting from the airport to DC will take a while. Now you don't have much time for DC since you need to spend just as much time getting back to NYC.

It's too much for a single-day trip in my opinion.


Hmm ok. I was planning to catch a 7:30/8am flight, and come back late. Maybe I'm not being realistic?

You would need to get up at like 4:30am, get over to the airport as soon as possible, leave the airport in DC at 9am, get to your first destination in DC at 10am, tour until 4pm, get to the airport at 5pm, catch a 7pm flight, leave the nyc airport at 8pm, get back to your place 9pm.... I mean if everything goes perfectly it can be done, but it kinda sucks.


The bus (very cheap) is about 3 hours iirc, and train (expensive) is very convenient as well. Both beat short-haul flights by miles.

I've taken the train, and 3 hours is being generous for the Bus. Even if you are right, that's a minimum 6 hours (probably more) of travel time for a single day... rough going.
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