|
On October 19 2012 04:57 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 02:52 xxpack09 wrote:Skill ceiling has nothing to do with this. Skill ceiling is a hypothetical amount of skill required to reach a hypothetically perfect state of play. If a game has a low skill ceiling, two players can have differing amounts of skill, but will not have their skill distinguished by the game, since they are both playing perfectly. A simple example is tic-tac-toe--the amount of strategic skill required to play tic-tac-toe is incredibly low--damn near anyone who isn't a little kid knows how to play that game perfectly, and thus it does not serve as a test of strategic ability. Ideally, a competitive game should have a skill ceiling much higher than anything any human can achieve, so that differences in skill will always lead to significant differences in winrate. Even if neither player has hit the skill ceiling, if two players are very close to the skill ceiling of a game, there will be a noticeable change in the win-rate towards 50/50, even if one of the players has more skill. So yeah, this has nothing to do with why you can't get out of platinum. edit: On October 19 2012 01:34 Facultyadjutant wrote:On October 18 2012 17:29 Aelonius wrote:On October 18 2012 10:23 Entertaining wrote:
Id stop trying to improve and start trying to win. I used to play bw, letting my opponent get away with his horrible wall-in or lack of early game scouting, trying to play the standard macro game. Focusing on mechanics. But the more I cared about my rank, the more I started doing ling breaks and hidden expos. If you wanna get a better rank. Win your games, whatever the means. That's the biggest bull that you can do. It just results in kids cheesing and does not end up being the magic 'fix' to being better. Fuck off, nearly every great player was called cheesy from the start. According to artosis the koreans learn the game in pieces, even by cheesing. Learn the game in pieces, that´s how the best players do it. Probably the most notable example is Flash--he went from being viewed as just some young terran who's really good at cheese to a genius and TvP revolutionist to a complete god of BW. Yeah, improper use of "skill ceiling" in this blog, I think the OP means to say that he/she reached a plateau.
What is the difference between a plateau and a ceiling?
|
I do believe that players have a skill ceiling where they'll play up to a certain level then start plateauing with a very small rate of improvement, but being a Platinum player is more indicative of a mental block imo than having reached a skill ceiling
basically the lower skilled you are the bigger holes in your game there will be and as a player's skill increases the holes get smaller and harder to fix. at platinum, there are still plenty of glaring holes that can be fixed.
|
On October 19 2012 05:06 wajd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 04:57 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On October 19 2012 02:52 xxpack09 wrote:Skill ceiling has nothing to do with this. Skill ceiling is a hypothetical amount of skill required to reach a hypothetically perfect state of play. If a game has a low skill ceiling, two players can have differing amounts of skill, but will not have their skill distinguished by the game, since they are both playing perfectly. A simple example is tic-tac-toe--the amount of strategic skill required to play tic-tac-toe is incredibly low--damn near anyone who isn't a little kid knows how to play that game perfectly, and thus it does not serve as a test of strategic ability. Ideally, a competitive game should have a skill ceiling much higher than anything any human can achieve, so that differences in skill will always lead to significant differences in winrate. Even if neither player has hit the skill ceiling, if two players are very close to the skill ceiling of a game, there will be a noticeable change in the win-rate towards 50/50, even if one of the players has more skill. So yeah, this has nothing to do with why you can't get out of platinum. edit: On October 19 2012 01:34 Facultyadjutant wrote:On October 18 2012 17:29 Aelonius wrote:On October 18 2012 10:23 Entertaining wrote:
Id stop trying to improve and start trying to win. I used to play bw, letting my opponent get away with his horrible wall-in or lack of early game scouting, trying to play the standard macro game. Focusing on mechanics. But the more I cared about my rank, the more I started doing ling breaks and hidden expos. If you wanna get a better rank. Win your games, whatever the means. That's the biggest bull that you can do. It just results in kids cheesing and does not end up being the magic 'fix' to being better. Fuck off, nearly every great player was called cheesy from the start. According to artosis the koreans learn the game in pieces, even by cheesing. Learn the game in pieces, that´s how the best players do it. Probably the most notable example is Flash--he went from being viewed as just some young terran who's really good at cheese to a genius and TvP revolutionist to a complete god of BW. Yeah, improper use of "skill ceiling" in this blog, I think the OP means to say that he/she reached a plateau. What is the difference between a plateau and a ceiling?
I always understood skill ceiling as something which is not relative to this or that player, but general. The theoretic highest skill one can achieve.
The only reference I remember seeing to skill ceiling where it was relative, was in the case where a player is connecting to a distance server and has ping issues, like in Dox's Warcraft 3 section on liquipedia.
Plateau would be a flat line in a graph of skill by time, when a player is having difficulties improving his play.
|
On October 19 2012 05:06 wajd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 04:57 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On October 19 2012 02:52 xxpack09 wrote:Skill ceiling has nothing to do with this. Skill ceiling is a hypothetical amount of skill required to reach a hypothetically perfect state of play. If a game has a low skill ceiling, two players can have differing amounts of skill, but will not have their skill distinguished by the game, since they are both playing perfectly. A simple example is tic-tac-toe--the amount of strategic skill required to play tic-tac-toe is incredibly low--damn near anyone who isn't a little kid knows how to play that game perfectly, and thus it does not serve as a test of strategic ability. Ideally, a competitive game should have a skill ceiling much higher than anything any human can achieve, so that differences in skill will always lead to significant differences in winrate. Even if neither player has hit the skill ceiling, if two players are very close to the skill ceiling of a game, there will be a noticeable change in the win-rate towards 50/50, even if one of the players has more skill. So yeah, this has nothing to do with why you can't get out of platinum. edit: On October 19 2012 01:34 Facultyadjutant wrote:On October 18 2012 17:29 Aelonius wrote:On October 18 2012 10:23 Entertaining wrote:
Id stop trying to improve and start trying to win. I used to play bw, letting my opponent get away with his horrible wall-in or lack of early game scouting, trying to play the standard macro game. Focusing on mechanics. But the more I cared about my rank, the more I started doing ling breaks and hidden expos. If you wanna get a better rank. Win your games, whatever the means. That's the biggest bull that you can do. It just results in kids cheesing and does not end up being the magic 'fix' to being better. Fuck off, nearly every great player was called cheesy from the start. According to artosis the koreans learn the game in pieces, even by cheesing. Learn the game in pieces, that´s how the best players do it. Probably the most notable example is Flash--he went from being viewed as just some young terran who's really good at cheese to a genius and TvP revolutionist to a complete god of BW. Yeah, improper use of "skill ceiling" in this blog, I think the OP means to say that he/she reached a plateau. What is the difference between a plateau and a ceiling?
A plateau is a personal hurdle wherein it seems like you are no longer improving. Often, a plateau is overcome via an epiphany and results in more improvement after realizing that epiphany.
To put it another way... somebody is struggling to get out of platinum for a long while, then something just clicks and you begin to crush for a short while as you suddenly improve.
A skill ceiling is the absolute highest achievable skill inside of the game. If you execute everything perfectly, micro and macro perfectly, then you have hit the skill ceiling. Arguably this will never be achieved in SC2 because perfect micro is far too difficult to be realized by a person.
|
On October 20 2012 05:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 05:06 wajd wrote:On October 19 2012 04:57 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On October 19 2012 02:52 xxpack09 wrote:Skill ceiling has nothing to do with this. Skill ceiling is a hypothetical amount of skill required to reach a hypothetically perfect state of play. If a game has a low skill ceiling, two players can have differing amounts of skill, but will not have their skill distinguished by the game, since they are both playing perfectly. A simple example is tic-tac-toe--the amount of strategic skill required to play tic-tac-toe is incredibly low--damn near anyone who isn't a little kid knows how to play that game perfectly, and thus it does not serve as a test of strategic ability. Ideally, a competitive game should have a skill ceiling much higher than anything any human can achieve, so that differences in skill will always lead to significant differences in winrate. Even if neither player has hit the skill ceiling, if two players are very close to the skill ceiling of a game, there will be a noticeable change in the win-rate towards 50/50, even if one of the players has more skill. So yeah, this has nothing to do with why you can't get out of platinum. edit: On October 19 2012 01:34 Facultyadjutant wrote:On October 18 2012 17:29 Aelonius wrote:On October 18 2012 10:23 Entertaining wrote:
Id stop trying to improve and start trying to win. I used to play bw, letting my opponent get away with his horrible wall-in or lack of early game scouting, trying to play the standard macro game. Focusing on mechanics. But the more I cared about my rank, the more I started doing ling breaks and hidden expos. If you wanna get a better rank. Win your games, whatever the means. That's the biggest bull that you can do. It just results in kids cheesing and does not end up being the magic 'fix' to being better. Fuck off, nearly every great player was called cheesy from the start. According to artosis the koreans learn the game in pieces, even by cheesing. Learn the game in pieces, that´s how the best players do it. Probably the most notable example is Flash--he went from being viewed as just some young terran who's really good at cheese to a genius and TvP revolutionist to a complete god of BW. Yeah, improper use of "skill ceiling" in this blog, I think the OP means to say that he/she reached a plateau. What is the difference between a plateau and a ceiling? A plateau is a personal hurdle wherein it seems like you are no longer improving. Often, a plateau is overcome via an epiphany and results in more improvement after realizing that epiphany. To put it another way... somebody is struggling to get out of platinum for a long while, then something just clicks and you begin to crush for a short while as you suddenly improve. A skill ceiling is the absolute highest achievable skill inside of the game. If you execute everything perfectly, micro and macro perfectly, then you have hit the skill ceiling. Arguably this will never be achieved in SC2 because perfect micro is far too difficult to be realized by a person.
Have you had this kind of epiphany? and when does it happen?
I am referring to personal skill ceiling, as in myself. That I can no longer improve.
Obviously the only way to reach game skill ceiling is if a computer is programmed perfectly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
