EPTWhy do other players improve and some don't? The only reason I can think of is skill ceiling.
Can somebody please help me?
how do you prove a skill ceiling does not exist?
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wajd
240 Posts
Why do other players improve and some don't? The only reason I can think of is skill ceiling. Can somebody please help me? | ||
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Entertaining
Canada793 Posts
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FluffyBinLaden
United States527 Posts
Remember, the league doesn't measure skill, and especially over such a large time period. Plat back at release was a lot worse than now. You ARE improving, I promise. My recommendation, try different practice methods and partners. Play a different style or just screw around for several weeks and THEN play normally. It changes things. | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
After that you need to get some really clean build orders and be able to execute them extremely well every time out. Making sure your factory is always down at X time or whatever it is for the race you play. The build order needs to be good and extremely clean. Both of those techniques will take you to masters, after that it's about scouting, unit control and positioning. Trying to work on scouting, positioning, making the "correct" counter etc before your fundamentals are sound will cause you all sorts of havoc and grief. There is no skill ceiling. There is a mindset and practice ceiling. Playing thousands of games with a poor understanding of how to improve will result in a minimal benefit. Playing thousands of games working on very specific things each time will result in a large improvement. Your brain simply can't handle that many things at once. | ||
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Code
Canada634 Posts
Also, maybe include what areas you're struggling with, what you feel you're good at, how much you play, if you analyse your own replays after losses, etc. Need more info. Do you play Protoss (its in your icon)? People telling you what to do won't necessarily help you if you don't understand the point behind it. Do you have any friends to play custom games with? The difference in being able to execute a few solid builds for each matchup can help a lot. You can always try the practice partners thread on TL and see if you can find someone your level to play with too. | ||
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Flip9
Germany151 Posts
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HungrySC2
United States191 Posts
There are many that do this for free. Myself included if you're interested. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
After like 30 pages from the past few threads, if you really feel like you can't improve, then just quit, since that seems to be what you've already been telling yourself for the past 10 months. | ||
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Scholera
United States166 Posts
On October 18 2012 10:15 wajd wrote: Been Plat for 2.5 years. Everyone tells me to do this and that. When I try it, it doesn't work. Why do other players improve and some don't? The only reason I can think of is skill ceiling. Can somebody please help me? I don't see how this is possible. Maybe RTS at a higher level isn't for you :/ If he's been trying to be promoted for 2.5 years, if I was him I'd just pay lol and get a pro coach's input | ||
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Desertfaux
Netherlands276 Posts
If you want to rank up to diamond (trust me, not much better in there, just less people greeting you, more people cursing you) do what Filter tells you to do. | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Aelonius
Netherlands432 Posts
On October 18 2012 10:23 Entertaining wrote: Id stop trying to improve and start trying to win. I used to play bw, letting my opponent get away with his horrible wall-in or lack of early game scouting, trying to play the standard macro game. Focusing on mechanics. But the more I cared about my rank, the more I started doing ling breaks and hidden expos. If you wanna get a better rank. Win your games, whatever the means. That's the biggest bull that you can do. It just results in kids cheesing and does not end up being the magic 'fix' to being better. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
Identify what is lacking, and practice on that. Don't play, practice. Goal is not to win, it's to improve something. We, musicians, play very little in our practice time. We do scales, we do exercises, we do studies. We spend a lot of time with the music on a table, thinking about it, taking decisions. And when we play we mostly do it slowly, to have time to listen, process and correct everything, and then increase speed very progressively. People who play all the time as if they were in a concert hall don't improve. I think in terms of practice management, esports are still in infancy. For example, eveerybody who takes the game seriously should spend hours doing purely physical exercises to increase the pace of his fingers and his mind, and put a huge emphasis on having a super fast and super clean spam-free play. If their marine split is lacking, what most people do is to try to improve it game after game. But how many marine splits do you do in one game? 10? 20? That's not rational practice. On a UMS and with dedication, you could do 500 marine split, with nothing else to worry about, and with the mental room and time to really analyse how it could be better, in the time you spend playing one single game. And then do extensive analysis or their own replays, for every single game, etc... Use your mind. Observe yourself. Analyse your play. Take action in the most rational way. Don't mass game blindly, it's a loss of time unless you are incredibly talented. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:29 Aelonius wrote: That's the biggest bull that you can do. It just results in kids cheesing and does not end up being the magic 'fix' to being better. People have said "try a different way to improve". Who says cheesing doesn't improve micro and multitasking? Plus if it gives him a couple wins to feel good, who really cares? It is a game. I hate that people think the ONLY way to play is NR20. | ||
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
PM me | ||
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Facultyadjutant
Sweden1876 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:29 Aelonius wrote: That's the biggest bull that you can do. It just results in kids cheesing and does not end up being the magic 'fix' to being better. Fuck off, nearly every great player was called cheesy from the start. According to artosis the koreans learn the game in pieces, even by cheesing. Learn the game in pieces, that´s how the best players do it. | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
Skill ceiling is a hypothetical amount of skill required to reach a hypothetically perfect state of play. If a game has a low skill ceiling, two players can have differing amounts of skill, but will not have their skill distinguished by the game, since they are both playing perfectly. A simple example is tic-tac-toe--the amount of strategic skill required to play tic-tac-toe is incredibly low--damn near anyone who isn't a little kid knows how to play that game perfectly, and thus it does not serve as a test of strategic ability. Ideally, a competitive game should have a skill ceiling much higher than anything any human can achieve, so that differences in skill will always lead to significant differences in winrate. Even if neither player has hit the skill ceiling, if two players are very close to the skill ceiling of a game, there will be a noticeable change in the win-rate towards 50/50, even if one of the players has more skill. So yeah, this has nothing to do with why you can't get out of platinum. edit: On October 19 2012 01:34 Facultyadjutant wrote: Fuck off, nearly every great player was called cheesy from the start. According to artosis the koreans learn the game in pieces, even by cheesing. Learn the game in pieces, that´s how the best players do it. Probably the most notable example is Flash--he went from being viewed as just some young terran who's really good at cheese to a genius and TvP revolutionist to a complete god of BW. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On October 19 2012 02:52 xxpack09 wrote: Skill ceiling has nothing to do with this. Skill ceiling is a hypothetical amount of skill required to reach a hypothetically perfect state of play. If a game has a low skill ceiling, two players can have differing amounts of skill, but will not have their skill distinguished by the game, since they are both playing perfectly. A simple example is tic-tac-toe--the amount of strategic skill required to play tic-tac-toe is incredibly low--damn near anyone who isn't a little kid knows how to play that game perfectly, and thus it does not serve as a test of strategic ability. Ideally, a competitive game should have a skill ceiling much higher than anything any human can achieve, so that differences in skill will always lead to significant differences in winrate. Even if neither player has hit the skill ceiling, if two players are very close to the skill ceiling of a game, there will be a noticeable change in the win-rate towards 50/50, even if one of the players has more skill. So yeah, this has nothing to do with why you can't get out of platinum. edit: Probably the most notable example is Flash--he went from being viewed as just some young terran who's really good at cheese to a genius and TvP revolutionist to a complete god of BW. Yeah, improper use of "skill ceiling" in this blog, I think the OP means to say that he/she reached a plateau. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Kicker] + I later found out that he played dota from an armchair and used the arm rest as his mouse pad. | ||
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wajd
240 Posts
On October 19 2012 04:57 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Yeah, improper use of "skill ceiling" in this blog, I think the OP means to say that he/she reached a plateau. What is the difference between a plateau and a ceiling? | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
basically the lower skilled you are the bigger holes in your game there will be and as a player's skill increases the holes get smaller and harder to fix. at platinum, there are still plenty of glaring holes that can be fixed. | ||
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VenomBRA
Netherlands168 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:06 wajd wrote: What is the difference between a plateau and a ceiling? I always understood skill ceiling as something which is not relative to this or that player, but general. The theoretic highest skill one can achieve. The only reference I remember seeing to skill ceiling where it was relative, was in the case where a player is connecting to a distance server and has ping issues, like in Dox's Warcraft 3 section on liquipedia. Plateau would be a flat line in a graph of skill by time, when a player is having difficulties improving his play. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:06 wajd wrote: What is the difference between a plateau and a ceiling? A plateau is a personal hurdle wherein it seems like you are no longer improving. Often, a plateau is overcome via an epiphany and results in more improvement after realizing that epiphany. To put it another way... somebody is struggling to get out of platinum for a long while, then something just clicks and you begin to crush for a short while as you suddenly improve. A skill ceiling is the absolute highest achievable skill inside of the game. If you execute everything perfectly, micro and macro perfectly, then you have hit the skill ceiling. Arguably this will never be achieved in SC2 because perfect micro is far too difficult to be realized by a person. | ||
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wajd
240 Posts
On October 20 2012 05:15 TheRabidDeer wrote: A plateau is a personal hurdle wherein it seems like you are no longer improving. Often, a plateau is overcome via an epiphany and results in more improvement after realizing that epiphany. To put it another way... somebody is struggling to get out of platinum for a long while, then something just clicks and you begin to crush for a short while as you suddenly improve. A skill ceiling is the absolute highest achievable skill inside of the game. If you execute everything perfectly, micro and macro perfectly, then you have hit the skill ceiling. Arguably this will never be achieved in SC2 because perfect micro is far too difficult to be realized by a person. Have you had this kind of epiphany? and when does it happen? I am referring to personal skill ceiling, as in myself. That I can no longer improve. Obviously the only way to reach game skill ceiling is if a computer is programmed perfectly. | ||
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