EPTIn Defence of Mech - Page 8
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crow_mw
Poland115 Posts
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On August 15 2012 02:55 Falling wrote: Warhound Which criteria does the warhound fulfill? It doesn't shoot up, so I guess it would be the cannon fodder? But we already have that in spades. Marines, Marauders, Hellions, Battle-hellions. Heck, even scv's can be used. The main problem I have with the Warhound is Blizzard's explicit goal. Warhound is supposed to be anti-mech. And then I look at it. It moves just the same as any other infantry unit and its bonus damage is against the tank. The heart and soul of Mech Play. That explicit goal is contrary to true mech play. It's just the factory version of m&m. But marine micro is actually cool. The Warhound is supposed to be anti-mech and you are upset that it is in fact anti-mech? Well, I guess that's an opinion. | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
Imagine that tanks got a nice buff and we got to see more positional turtly Terran play. Sounds fun if you're playing on Atlantis Spaceship or cross pos Tal'darim Altar... but just look at some of the shit maps Blizzard comes up with and you'll realize they have no idea how to integrate units, maps, tactics, and strategy. Remember beta tanks on Steppes of War? Ya that was fun... NOT. On another note, I can't decide if Xel'naga towers keep WoL mech viable, or are responsible for killing it. Just a thought. | ||
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fer
Canada375 Posts
Sorry, but by any sane definition, "Mech play" = army made up of mech units. Oh you don't think so? You think "Mech play" is strictly defined by a style from your favourite dead game? Cry me a river. I'm perfectly content with you wanting BW back, or BW style play reintroduced back into SC2, but at least be honest about it. Or try to step out of the delusion that this isn't what you're asking for or what this post is all about. | ||
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PMACProspekt
5 Posts
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PMACProspekt
5 Posts
On August 15 2012 04:40 fer wrote: 1/5, BW nostalgia. Sorry, but by any sane definition, "Mech play" = army made up of mech units. Oh you don't think so? You think "Mech play" is strictly defined by a style from your favourite dead game? Cry me a river. I'm perfectly content with you wanting BW back, or BW style play reintroduced back into SC2, but at least be honest about it. Or try to step out of the delusion that this isn't what you're asking for or what this post is all about. Hahaha this is great. Even if his definition is off, he still has made the point that HOTS needs more micro able units for mech (or bio for that matter) play to be considered interesting. | ||
Falling
Canada11259 Posts
Those are all possible changes. I couldn't tell you exactly how that would affect gameplay, but anything would be interesting than what it currently is. (Unless that anything change is to make it slower, more hit points and less maneuverable.) However, after reading your post that you linked. Dps and how it interacts with StarCraft 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100 And having read some comments in a couple threads, I think there's really something to front-loaded damage/ burst damage. That is while there is burst damage in SC2, the DPS is faster your post points out. But that must be part of what makes units so microable (assuming you can quickly move after firing.) Continous fire isn't bad, but it seems there's a lot less cool down in SC2. But it's the cool down where you can afford to micro units back (unless you make it like the Phoenix.) Dragoons, vultures, mutalisks, reaver, tanks, lurkers, even banelings and scourge. There's a lot of front loaded damage and then a short time to move back which creates more micro situations. That time to move back is decreased in SC2. You see a little bit of it with stalker vs marine micro until concussive shell comes out. But you also need a bit of speed and manueverability. Guardians and Broodlords for instance have burst damage, but aren't particularly microeable because of their slow speeds. Not every unit needs it. Just more. That's actually what made the Reapers interesting and why I don't include them in my list of infantry units that are more or less the same. When they worked, Reapers were actually really cool. They had that burst damage and then retreat. Attack, retreat, attack retreat. But they were never particularly useful in large numbers. That's fine. But they never scaled very well into the late game. Early game they were too potent and late game their build time is just ridiculous when m&m are so crucial. Almost needed a late game upgrade to build them faster or something. On August 15 2012 04:25 dvorakftw wrote: The Warhound is supposed to be anti-mech and you are upset that it is in fact anti-mech? Well, I guess that's an opinion. I don't care if one unit is designed to kill another unit. I do care if the unit it's designed to kill, kills an entirely unique game style. A game style that's fun to play and requires lots of skill. A gameplay that's makes good spectator moments. It's not nostalgia, it's one-of-a-kind gameplay. I'm rather curious, can someone prove me wrong? Is there an RTS out there that has anything close to Mech play? I can't even imagine trying to watch SupCom2 as a competitive game as all the units attack the same. They just have different values for what they are better at. | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
Blizzard is going in all of the wrong directions in my opinion with HOTS. They want to take out the positional gameplay, which in my opinion is the best part of the game right now. They want to get away from the deathball, which I appreciate, but they are going in it the completely wrong way. I hope that some serious changes get made before the game is released, because right now I'm not super excited, and I think they are going to kill the game. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
I really don't get the point of the warhound. If it's going to counter mech, what's the point of siege tanks? The battle hellion can counter light units. If the warhound stays as is, a composition of battle hellions and warhounds is all that is needed. The hellions counter light and the warhounds counter armored units. It will play like a carbon copy of the barracks composition. | ||
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JackDT
724 Posts
i) They have a set-up time ii) Therefore, they sacrifice mobility iii) They have a slow rate of fire iv) It has a minimum range v) It has turret rotation time (turret needed to be facing the right way to fire. I've always wondered by other units don't have 'facing' or minimum range. And siege mode like modifiers that give a defenders advantage at the cost of mobility are great too. When you think of big battlecruiser battles in my mind, I see ship orientation being huge. If you can get 'behind' the battlecruiser with a smaller faster ship it should be vulnerable as it tries to turn around to fire. But there aren't really any mechanics like that. | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
On August 15 2012 05:08 JackDT wrote: I love the chess-like tank position battles in TvT too. I wish ALL matchups had a stronger element of this. Thank tank really is the most interesting unit in the game. I've always wondered by other units don't have 'facing' or minimum range. And siege mode like modifiers that give a defenders advantage at the cost of mobility are great too. When you think of big battlecruiser battles in my mind, I see ship orientation being huge. If you can get 'behind' the battlecruiser with a smaller faster ship it should be vulnerable as it tries to turn around to fire. But there aren't really any mechanics like that. Cause tanks in bw were super OP. Almost as OP as DT's yo. 13 fucking range and 70 dmg to large, along with 52.5 to medium (plus mines to chew up small units) ? Are you serious? And in BW that range is more than SC2 cause of factors like 1) less ranged units 2) harder to control large groups of units so crossing that range is harder 3) shittier AI. Now everyones flying around in airplanes so getting across the world is hard but imagine how long it took to get across the world via ship. Now imagine in the ship there are alien laser catapults atking you as you slowly sail, and now there are alien water cateapults atking you as your warp speed your way across the world. That's the difference between range in sc2 and bw. Lurkers were pretty strong too - they had a setup time as well to help balance this. And reavers scarabs could dud, plus they were useless without shuttles. But damn when they hit. Spellcasters were also pretty OP but at least without smartcasts it became really hard to use them effectively in large groups, plus they required constant baby sitting which is something that is harder when you have to change screens to macro effectively. In SC2 you can literally amove into a max mech army and win without even reinforcing during the battle. This isn't saying one game is better than the other, but they're different in how they play. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
Like you've said though, the fundamental problem with mech in HOTS, is the Warhound. The first thing Blizzard talks about when it comes to this unit is that it's designed to kill Tanks, in a head to head battle, cost for cost and easy. As a conseqence of this, it's also godly against Protoss, making for a "1a", roam the map robot army. I feel like the only way "mech play" can be salvaged is if Dustin Browder gives up his ideea that Tank lines are boring. Hopefully some of the people Blizzard consults with, will lobby for the true mech play (i'm looking at Artosis and Day9 here). Realistically though, it's probably a lot cause, just like meaningful high ground advantage, geting rid of destructible rocks everywhere and so on. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On August 15 2012 04:58 Falling wrote: I don't care if one unit is designed to kill another unit. I do care if the unit it's designed to kill, kills an entirely unique game style. A game style that's fun to play and requires lots of skill. A gameplay that's makes good spectator moments. Ah, I didn't realize we had declared mech play dead because of Warhounds. | ||
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
I feel like making a custom map just to play mech now...Maybe I will (no not another BW custom). | ||
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Falling
Canada11259 Posts
On August 15 2012 05:25 dvorakftw wrote: Ah, I didn't realize we had declared mech play dead because of Warhounds. Now you're just being contrary  I have a lot of caveats in my OP and nothing is for sure. But pure Mech Play doesn't currently exist. So I'm not sure it was ever alive (else why in the world is Artosis always talking about mech is the way of the future?). Bio-mech is, but not pure Mech style. But when you look at the HotS design, where is the momentum, towards or away from mech play? Warhounds are definitely away. Widow mines might be towards. And the hellion fix is to give it more hit points and make it slower. Another beefy, walking unit with all the other ones. They are not making it more maneuverable. It's technically more versatile, but not in a very interesting way. It just lasts longer than before. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
I don't know if you or other people here have played the beta at any LANS or the HOTS custom map which is close to the current game specs, but i've done some more testing and the widow mine really is underwhelming. It feels like a raven hunter seeker missile right now in terms of efficiency and "will it do anything." And a lot of other times you have them on the map and are just like, "well, wow these are pointless, he just made the standard 1A deathball and is attacking me." I don't think i've played one HOTS test game yet where I've felt "if only i had mines or mines on the map." Usually it boils down to, "i need more warhounds/hellions/ghosts because if i spend supply anywhere else i'm going to get streamrolled." Not to mention the point you made in your OP about mines in brood war not *HAVING* to do damage and being free. It's a huge issue in design. The widow mines cost money and supply so you are currently penalized for building them. It really is much like having vikings vs a pure ground to ground army. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On August 15 2012 05:25 dvorakftw wrote: Ah, I didn't realize we had declared mech play dead because of Warhounds. Warhounds are not mech play at all. It's simply a marauder in a gundam suit. No Terran player wants mech to simply become bio which is what the design in HOTS currently is for mech - it's the marauder in a gundam suit pretending to be a mech unit. It's a simple 1A unit as well. And because blizzard has purposely made it so widow mines and siege tanks do not work well together, positional play is completely 100% gone from mech because since you can't have siege tanks with mines to be effective...(the tanks kill whatever mines would attach to) this means you simply do not build tanks but you build warhounds, or if you do for some reason build tanks you don't build the mines with your army...which defeats the point of positional mech play in a lot of ways... They need to drastically overhaul and re-design the mine and the warhound. You also run into the distinct WOL problem still when your opponent goes void rays...you have nothing that can shoot up. The mine only helps mech vs void rays in pure opening build orders on defense a bit. In terms of when you're out on the map, you're extremely still vulnerable to void rays because protoss has to be naive enough to walk void rays or air units into mines. Bring back the goliath *cough* is the short answer, and bring back the spider mine *cough* if something is not broken...do not try to fix it. | ||
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pyrostat
Korea (South)70 Posts
so you think that tanks should be buffed? isn't it powerful enough as it is? if not, by buffed what do you mean? | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
I would challenge you on a few things though. 1. Defenders Advantage, High Ground and Miss Chance. While I appreciate the effects of what miss chance did in BW, there are simply better ways to do it. Damage reduction, enemy range reduction, or some other deterministic mechanic all can punish death ball play without randomness. It isn't a maxim, if we are talking about a mechanic that actively detracts from player execution (unless you are doing shuttle/prism/medivac micro, your units should shoot and hit what you tell them too.) Worse still, it is something neither player has any control over. Nostalgia is a poor substitute for good design. 2. Terms Wouldn't the Goliath qualify as just another infantry unit? It is a generalist that is bipedal in its movement. Given its relative speed and maneuverability, it handles more like a dragoon or a marine than a Thor. All that said, the Goliath clearly belonged in the factory. Given that the other two mech units can't shoot up, the Golaith offered something special and unique for that level of tech: "siege range AA" with the chiron booster upgrade. For better or worse, that has been usurped by the Thor and the Viking in WoL. I would argue the difference between the Golaith and the Warhound isn't so much that the Warhound is an infantry unit, but that it doesn't quite offer that special something that its predecessor did. 2. Reasonable Expectations Can you imagine trying to play classic mech vs Blink Stalkers, Chargelots (you thought mine drag was bad with legspeed), Immortals (Golaiths and tanks die very quickly. also who needs Zealots to clear minefields), Collosi, or Mass Warp Ins? Hell, Even spider mines wouldn't be as effective because of faster and cheaper Observers. The thing people need to accept is this: Protoss isn't going to change. Zealots are still going to charge, Stalkers will still be able to blink, and no matter how many people cry about it, the Colossus will remain in the game. Expecting vultures, retarded spider mines, goliaths, and 2 supply tanks to fix Mech's woes vs Protoss is simply not reasonable. What is reasonable is that we push for small tweaks on both races over a long period of time. Things like lengthening Warp Gate cooldowns to encourage Gateway production, decreasing the supply and damage of Immortals slightly, as well as reducing Siege Tank costs and supply could all go a long way to enabling mech playstyles. That said, the Collosus is still in the game and as long as Protoss can have 4 of them in an army, they will be able to walk over tank lines with the right composition. This is where new answers are needed. And to Blizzard's credit, they are well on their way to providing them, even if their current iterations are flawed.Blizzard has correctly identified several core issues with WoL mech. 3. Design and Iteration -Old mech was supply efficient, WoL mech isn't. The Thor may have more HP than 3 Goliaths and about as much damage output vs light air, but one Thor simply doesn't do what three Golaiths can do even though they cost the same supply. You can split up your suppy of AA mech units in BW; you can't in WoL. The Warhound was intended to be just that in HotS's original debut. It costs 2 supply. You can have literally three times as much ground presence with Warhounds as you could with Thors. The Widow Mine is a cheap means of aquiring map control. It costs 1 supply and is certain to kill at least 2 supply worth of units vs Protoss. (Baring probes and Observers) -Old Mech was more durable than Old Bio, not so much for WoL. Even with combat shields, Marines only have 55 HP. Marauders are better at surviving AOE with 130 HP but cost gas and require a tech lab to build. The Battle Hellion provides a 135 HP buffer that is necessary in a game where Collosi and smart cast storm exist. In addition, they are a mineral only unit that can be built two at a time. Further, they have an increased base damage of 10 vs the Hellion's 8 (Meaning that if you overlap their AOE correctly, you can punish poor melee engagements) The nice thing is that you still need to manage your hellions in both modes to get the most out of the unit. Will need to spread them to reduce the efficiency of Storms and Fungal Growth (The slower Battle Hellions die, the more Tank shots land). This sort of positioning based management is crucial for a Terran's slow push to survive. Further, it is not only non-optimal for all of your Hellions to remain in battle form at all times, it can cost you the game on larger maps. Hellions are among the fastest units in the game, sacrificing that mobility for damage and durability does dick if they aren't where they need to be. Good mech players will be constantly transforming their Hellions back and forth to get them from front to front. Because units like the Immortal and Collosus exist. WoL Mech needs durable mech units. The Warhound's 220 HP means that it can shrug off Storms and Fungals. A Warhound composition can take many more volleys from Collosi based armies than Marine Marauder compositions. And unlike WoL's Thor, this thing is cheap (150/75 and 2 supply vs the Thors 300/200 and 6 Supply) and microable. Yes, that's right, the Warhound is one of the faster units in the game, just behind the Stalker in terms of speed. That combined with 7 range means you can not only zone with Warhounds, but you can also reposition them, or even kite. This absurd efficiency is offset by two issues: No AA and no Splash, meaning that even with Battle Hellion Support, Warhounds can get overrun by well positioned Zealots, Blink Stalkers, or sniped by dance-microed collosi. This means that vs most compositions, Warhounds will NEED the range and AOE of tanks. That said, the Warhound doesn't feel quite there. I think the Haywire Missile in its current iteration is what makes the unit feel "A Move," unlike charge, the ability doesn't really screw you if it goes off at a bad time. Does it hit Stalkers? Cool. Sentries? Even better, Immortal? 2 procs of Hardened Shield gone. Colossus? Perfect! At least with Zealots, if you botch a charge, you lose supply for it. Not so with Haywire. Ironically, I think that if they made Haywire missiles apply to air units only, and gave it a small AoE the unit would be both more effective, unique, and ultimately skill intensive than it is now. You could use a single speed ovie to soak up a ton of shots and dive in with mutas to snipe a warhound or tank. Similarly, you could disable autofire on the missles to bait a clump of mutas into over extending, or better yet, having some Warhounds autofire with others fresh and waiting. | ||
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FidoDido
United States1292 Posts
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