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In Defence of Mech - Page 6

Blogs > Falling
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 20 Next All
Boundz(DarKo)
Profile Joined March 2009
5311 Posts
August 14 2012 11:57 GMT
#101
It's all about the tank.

Tank was always (except when big daddy bc arrived) the core power-unit in the terran arsenal.
AzureD
Profile Joined September 2010
United States320 Posts
August 14 2012 12:11 GMT
#102
I actually disagree on the Hellion. I think this new battle hellion is a decent addition to the game. It serves a partial role as the vulture + spider mine in one. It has a set up time and serves as a buffer for your siege tanks. Although in a completely different way. They are also raiders and fast response units. However in their current forum I think they need to nerf their battle mode a little bit.

As for the Warhound. I hate this unit. Right now it is totally overpowered and I just hate how the unit fits in the army. I would not mind if it was completely removed. It is too effective against too many things and lacks weaknesses as well.
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
August 14 2012 12:22 GMT
#103
Good read 5/5
I cant say much due to terribadness at terran, but vulture run by's were one of my favorite things to watch in bw (not to play against).
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
August 14 2012 12:25 GMT
#104
6/5, all that needs to be said.
Administrator
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
August 14 2012 12:41 GMT
#105
5/5

Sadly though, i think the mech playstyle is on Dustin B. black list ever since making WOL. The man just doesn't like Tanks. The entire Protoss race looks like it was made to kill tanks as easy as posible. Now we get Worhounds to kill them in TvT and so on.

I still hope that there will be some big buff to tanks so you can at least choose to go all tanks/ hellion without those ugly and brainless robots. Not gona happen though.

+ Show Spoiler +
By the next expansion i would not be surprised if they thought about removing them and replace them with some caster unit that does AOE. Mechanical fire bat, mechanical marauder and some mechanical infestor/ HT is what i see in the future to be presented as mech.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Corvi
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Germany1406 Posts
August 14 2012 12:44 GMT
#106
i disagree a little bit.

why is tvp mech terrible? because of chargelots and most importantly immortals. so if you add something to be able to deal with those (obviously requiring warhound to be light armored, which as an anti-tank it ironically should be) this might be just what terran needed.
FATJESUSONABIKE
Profile Joined November 2011
184 Posts
August 14 2012 13:05 GMT
#107
One has to admit that Dustin Browder is a little bit of a mongoloid when it comes to actually 'thinking like a player'. He must be plain awful at Starcraft lol.
winthrop
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Hong Kong956 Posts
August 14 2012 13:10 GMT
#108
10/10
warhound doesn't belong to mech
Incredible Miracle
Nizes
Profile Joined May 2012
Finland27 Posts
August 14 2012 13:23 GMT
#109
It was really well written post and enjoyment to read i hope blizzard would notice this.
fire_brand
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada1123 Posts
August 14 2012 13:55 GMT
#110
Mind blown. Got some great points. Marines either shouldn't be able to kill tanks or tanks should always 1 shot marines.
Random player, pixel enthusiast, crappy illustrator, offlane/support
-UMADIMSTYLIN-
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Cuba292 Posts
August 14 2012 14:07 GMT
#111
On August 14 2012 22:55 fire_brand wrote:
Mind blown. Got some great points. Marines either shouldn't be able to kill tanks or tanks should always 1 shot marines.



They did, every tvt was tank/viking stalemate back in the day
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
August 14 2012 14:14 GMT
#112
SC2 tanks are the biggest disappointment since the Prequels.
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
nixis
Profile Joined July 2010
United States42 Posts
August 14 2012 14:17 GMT
#113
5/5 I hope they strengthen the tank in HotS. The only criticism I have of this is on your section 4) Protection against Flanks, you stated that "3 mines off of every Vulture that costs 75 supply" instead of minerals. Terran could definitely use a stronger, scarier siege tank instead of one that can be destroyed by alien warriors with light-sabers that can sprint. :p
Study strategy over the years and achieve the spirit of the warrior. Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3621 Posts
August 14 2012 14:27 GMT
#114
I agree with your general thought, but I do want to add in one caveat to this.

Blizzard didn't design Brood War, as far as I can tell, so that mech would win. Tanks are - as you mentioned - basically trebuchets (except they fire while moving) - they were supposed to be supplementary. As far as I can tell, every Terran matchup was "supposed" to look like TvZ, more or less, on the Terran side.

Even so, there does seem to be more diversity in BW unit design than in SC2 unit design, with the focus going more to differentiating the spells and "Tier 3" units. But mech wasn't, I don't think, a Blizzard idea at any point.
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-14 15:02:17
August 14 2012 14:28 GMT
#115
5/5 to me. I gave the idea of viable mech play some thought as well, as it was easily one of the most strategical and tactical interesting aspects of bw matchups. However i fear mech play can't be viable even if the new hots units were to be designed accordingly, which they are not as mentioned. There is some reasons to it that i like to mention:

a) MMM play is to strong: Why would you bother building up a slow, position based army that is hugely position in TvP dependent if 90% of the time being a mm army is more effective and easier to control aswell? Yes MMM play is hurting in the lategame under the sheer abundance of high tech protoss units. Collossi, storm and HT. However i argue, that Protoss is equipped even better to deal with mech play. Blink adds great mobility to flank, Collossi provide constant longe ranged dps to snipe isolated tanks at the front line. Immortals are anti tank at it´s best.

b) mech relies on flanking protection and buffer as mentioned, furthermore map control by positional spider mines to counteract or slow down runbys was essential. the hellion/bhellion may be able to provide buffering protection to the tankline, but the widowmine is unsuited to fill the role of the spidermine whatsoever. It's to costly, eats up supply... well the OP explained it in detail!

c) Air control: what may fill the air control role for Terran in sc2? thors and turrets naturally don't suffice as they are either to slow or to positional. So it´s vikings or marines to me, but the marine appears superior in dps, mobility and overall usefulnesses. Yes vikings handle Colossi. Marines deal absurd dps, shut down air play, execute drops. But tanks and rines is seen today in tvt, not very interesting though.

d) raids: hellions do great raids, the kill a ton of econ and are pretty fast. However they don't kill key buildings. The marine does the aforementioned nearly as well and the second too. It's as easy as that to me.

e) Interface: When playing vs a setup tank line or jockeying for positions in BW, the interface was actually a pretty grim task for Protoss. While it was for terran too, i argue concerning mech play, easy maneuverability benefits the mobile army that wants to flank, engage or bypass the meching player. Lets look at the ability to use storms via smartcast in sc2: Remember this? i could execute this in Sc2. Im Diamond and have ~100 Apm. While one can argue, that improved control benefits the defender aswell in the abaility to snipe ht and such i think it's more beneficient to that player, who actually has to engage a setup properly that is static for a large part.

In conclusion: i highly doubt mech play will ever be viable again in Sc2. Adding units in Hots won't cut it, some basic unit designs that either counter mech to hard or are just better than mech would have to occur. And i don't believe Blizzard will ever take up such a task.

€: forgot to mention it before and couldn't fit it in anywhere else: The 22 range absurdity blizzard is going to introduce makes mech unviable on it's own. Nice to have a static army if toss rains down on you without even engaging.
Broodwar for life!
BobMcJohnson
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
France2916 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-14 14:33:35
August 14 2012 14:33 GMT
#116
On August 14 2012 23:07 -UMADIMSTYLIN- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2012 22:55 fire_brand wrote:
Mind blown. Got some great points. Marines either shouldn't be able to kill tanks or tanks should always 1 shot marines.



They did, every tvt was tank/viking stalemate back in the day


Yeah, but it was not the only reason, the maps were also a lot smaller which means less space to go around the tanks, and shorter (and therefore thicker) siege lines. On today's bigger maps, you have a lot more space to out-maneuver a mech player since he can't just lock down a line across the map and push it slowly.
Romanes eunt domus
NormandyBoy
Profile Joined May 2010
France200 Posts
August 14 2012 14:57 GMT
#117
I like how the new units in SC2 were mad to give players more options but ended up forcing the game into boringness.
They probably looked at BW PvT for instance and said : "Man, protoss can never engage directly a terran army, gogo immortals and gogo nerf tanks !" and it killed mech.
Then, they were like : "Goliaths are so clunky, they need to be more mobile, gogo flying goliaths !" and it killed all micro because they failed to realize the clunkiness of the goliath was part of the unit, and led to cool micro = skill = fun.
meteorskunk
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada546 Posts
August 14 2012 15:27 GMT
#118
The BroodWar tank, mine, vulture, (and sometimes goliath) army with 3-3 upgrades was the "strongest army in the game" when fully utilized through positioning. Defensively, it is extremely cost effective. A small number of tanks with mines and vultures can defend territory against far larger numbers of zealot dragoon. while the mines are being cleared,siege tanks and vultures can devastate the protoss quickly. The strategy is to rely on this to defend bases with the minimum amount of units, and instead use the economy for greater production and upgrades for the push. It is very technical.

terran's main goal is to keep distance between the tanks and the zealots. The dragoons kill the vultures, the vultures kill the zealots. If mines do not cover for the tanks and vultures, and tanks for vultures and mines, protoss wins the battle. One can see how a great balance must be found. the map terrain must be used to keep the protoss from getting an engagement that is too horizantal, that takes too little tank fire, that has too few mines. this means the terran must move slowly across the map because if the tanks are overly aggressive and unsiege too much, the goons will get too close for the terran to win the battle.


The terran covers enough territory to secure bases to support enough factories to be able to replenish the losses the protoss inflicts during the final push. The protoss has a lot of time to macro up because the terran is slow, but he mustnot be too greedy either because the vultures are fast and they can slow you down with their mines. the protoss also has time to look for leaks in terran's defence. it is quite a fun and difficult battle. It is also the product of nearly a decade of paid competitive play!

When Koreans first showed the rest of the world that terran does not suck, were they whining to blizzard? i doubt it. So i ask, has terran explored all her options?

-use of high ground advantage to hold with few tanks and turrets. yes the misfire chance has been removed but it can offer a vision advantage with floated buildings and turrets and walls at the ramp.
-bunkers in the middle of the map. what about those bunker with extra HP?
- ABUSE of Planetary fortresses to just choke up areas and allow scvs to mass repair
-abusing ravens to snipe observers and allow banshees to pick off those annoying immortals?
-the new speed of the raven t go spam so point defence drones whenever the hell they feel like it?

are any of those points viable with warp gates costing only 150 minerals, zealots being super fast and robust and being warped in fucking anywhere? amazing gas sinks like high templar, dark templar and archons??

Girl Blog Credentials: Comfortable talking to some women. Tried the sex once
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
August 14 2012 15:34 GMT
#119
I wish you were wrong about Warhound.

But you're not and I i know it D:
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
TheSun
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany57 Posts
August 14 2012 15:40 GMT
#120
Well you say often "just because its coming out of the factory it isnt mech". I would say, just because your understanding of mech is totally sc1 based, this isnt mech per se either. Actually it makes a huge difference if something is coming out off a factory or a barrack, build-wise, stragtegy-wise, metagame-wise. So if blizzard wants to make a pure factory build for tvt viable, this has its benefits more or less regardless what units are coming out. So what i'm basically saying is that you and blizzard may have very different opinions about what mech is or should be.
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