On August 14 2012 19:06 Tyrseng wrote: The biggest problem I see with 'mech' (I don't think of mech as mech, but as positional play vs the more speed and control centric bio style) is that it focuses on positional play over speed and unit control, but only has one positional unit (the tank). The tank is only useful in certain situations, and it fails miserably at others (that's why you see players like Taeja annihilate mech players, due to the insane multitasking and just constantly poking where the mech army is not).
Positional play does not work because the positional units that Terran has are at best when they're all together as part of a huge army, instead of spread around which bio has the ability to do. This leads to plays like Supernova getting manhandled by MMA (IEM qualifiers) just by sheer multitasking, as tanks in low numbers cannot win vs a medivac full of units.
Blizzard does not understand what mech is. They believe mech is just any unit that is defined as 'mechanical'. They do not realize that the core of mech is not the fact that the units come out of a factory, it is that the units are (theoretically) supposed to be positional units as opposed to fast, light units that rely more on running around everywhere with good control.
The Spider Mines are a step in the right direction. While they need to be tweaked, they are definitely a positional unit and they will help to make TvT mech a bit easier by creating a more attractive alternative to dealing with drops (although the timer is far too long to be effective at that now, I feel like that will get buffed later on in the development phases).
However, mech players do not want the Warhound. They do not want the Battle Hellion. These are not positional units - these might as well be bio units - units that can be a-moved around without much care due to the fact that they have no value positionally (aside from the whole concave vs concave thing but that's more of a bio thing in the first place).
What I feel like would be an amazing alternative to the Warhound (which would fulfill the purpose that Blizzard stated the Warhound is supposed to have [breaking siege lines in TvT]) would be an artillery unit. This artillery unit would act much like a siege tank, in the sense that it would have more range than it could see, it would have to be sieged up, and it would have low mobility. However, this artillery unit would only be able to fire in the direction it is facing, it would have minimal splash, and it would have a range of 15--17ish. This would make TvT a lot more interesting, as it would be a constant battle to flank your opponent or catch him in range of your artillery, causing massive damage to his siege line so you could stim your marines in.
This would allow for much much more positional play, in all matchups - the very essence of mech. It would, essentially, divide Terran up into two races - mech, and bio. This would make every matchup a lot less repetitive and a lot more interesting (of course, another positional mech unit would have to be added to do something about Broodlords, because that's really what's screwing over TvZ mech at the moment I feel - maybe some sort of anti air unit, as that would also lessen the need to rush for Thors in TvZ - Thors are not positional units and therefore I feel they do not belong in the mech playstyle).
I know there's almost no chance that my idea will be added into the game, but these are my thoughts on mech - please respond with ideas / criticism!
Hmm, one thing I was thinking about here would be if they gave warhounds the HSM, and doubled the range. Basically, make it so that the warhound can call down a wave of long-range destruction, yet also give them a substantial set-up time--the warhound needed to be immobile and protected for a few seconds while it called down the thunder, so to speak.
Great write-up man! The SC2 units have so many statistics, I cannot understand why Blizzard is so reluctant to change things like attack scan angles, pathing size. Tanks and Psi Storm are probably the two things that make me cringe about SC2 the most. Judging form the lots of interviews thoug it is clear to me, that they were quite oblivious to what they had to make as a game and that they, including Dustin, are truly smart and passionate people. I wish though that they listened a bit more and learned faster.
Incredible post. I really hope Blizzard reads this. And God how I miss those sexy vultures. Not putting those in sc2 is perhaps the biggest mistake Blizzard did regarding sc2.
On August 14 2012 19:06 Tyrseng wrote: The biggest problem I see with 'mech' (I don't think of mech as mech, but as positional play vs the more speed and control centric bio style) is that it focuses on positional play over speed and unit control, but only has one positional unit (the tank). The tank is only useful in certain situations, and it fails miserably at others (that's why you see players like Taeja annihilate mech players, due to the insane multitasking and just constantly poking where the mech army is not).
Positional play does not work because the positional units that Terran has are at best when they're all together as part of a huge army, instead of spread around which bio has the ability to do. This leads to plays like Supernova getting manhandled by MMA (IEM qualifiers) just by sheer multitasking, as tanks in low numbers cannot win vs a medivac full of units.
Blizzard does not understand what mech is. They believe mech is just any unit that is defined as 'mechanical'. They do not realize that the core of mech is not the fact that the units come out of a factory, it is that the units are (theoretically) supposed to be positional units as opposed to fast, light units that rely more on running around everywhere with good control.
The Spider Mines are a step in the right direction. While they need to be tweaked, they are definitely a positional unit and they will help to make TvT mech a bit easier by creating a more attractive alternative to dealing with drops (although the timer is far too long to be effective at that now, I feel like that will get buffed later on in the development phases).
However, mech players do not want the Warhound. They do not want the Battle Hellion. These are not positional units - these might as well be bio units - units that can be a-moved around without much care due to the fact that they have no value positionally (aside from the whole concave vs concave thing but that's more of a bio thing in the first place).
What I feel like would be an amazing alternative to the Warhound (which would fulfill the purpose that Blizzard stated the Warhound is supposed to have [breaking siege lines in TvT]) would be an artillery unit. This artillery unit would act much like a siege tank, in the sense that it would have more range than it could see, it would have to be sieged up, and it would have low mobility. However, this artillery unit would only be able to fire in the direction it is facing, it would have minimal splash, and it would have a range of 15--17ish. This would make TvT a lot more interesting, as it would be a constant battle to flank your opponent or catch him in range of your artillery, causing massive damage to his siege line so you could stim your marines in.
This would allow for much much more positional play, in all matchups - the very essence of mech. It would, essentially, divide Terran up into two races - mech, and bio. This would make every matchup a lot less repetitive and a lot more interesting (of course, another positional mech unit would have to be added to do something about Broodlords, because that's really what's screwing over TvZ mech at the moment I feel - maybe some sort of anti air unit, as that would also lessen the need to rush for Thors in TvZ - Thors are not positional units and therefore I feel they do not belong in the mech playstyle).
I know there's almost no chance that my idea will be added into the game, but these are my thoughts on mech - please respond with ideas / criticism!
Hmm, one thing I was thinking about here would be if they gave warhounds the HSM, and doubled the range. Basically, make it so that the warhound can call down a wave of long-range destruction, yet also give them a substantial set-up time--the warhound needed to be immobile and protected for a few seconds while it called down the thunder, so to speak.
While that isn't as appealing to me, it's a lot more realistic at this stage of development and I think it's a pretty decent idea.
Although I really would like to see a feature where that sort of unit can only shoot in the direction it is facing, to really enhance the sort of positional play mech should be focused on.
Meh, this is just another thinly veiled "SC2 is bad because it isn't Brood War" post. Both Widow Mines and Warhounds fulfil your criteria of what mech is. And the mobility of goliaths contradict your points against the Battle Hellion/Thor/etc.. Moreover you are incorrect about how hellions attack, they attack in a single burst the same way that vultures do. It seems like you start with a criteria of what you think Mech is, but then change the rules as soon as you realise that HOTS units fulfil your criteria . As a clear example, why does widow mines taking up supply make any difference? this wasn't in your original criteria yet it's your sole reason for claiming widow mines aren't "mech-like". In my opinion this would've been a good post if it was more objective, and had less of a blatant BW bias.
As far as the other races go, we need the Colossus to take a role as a more "temporary" feature of the Protoss attack force, probably by raising its supply cost to 8 or 10 (!), increasing the time for the Templar Archives to complete, and buffing both the Colossus and Storm. As such, they get better at holding off timing attacks but get really bad in the lategame. Zerg needs to have a very mobile and reasonably bulky unit to supplement their lategame army. I'm thinking a Hive upgrade to the Roach to reduce them to 1 supply would be excellent.
On August 14 2012 19:57 XenoX101 wrote: Meh, this is just another thinly veiled "SC2 is bad because it isn't Brood War" post. Both Widow Mines and Warhounds fulfil your criteria of what mech is. And the mobility of goliaths contradict your points against the Battle Hellion/Thor/etc.. Moreover you are incorrect about how hellions attack, they attack in a single burst the same way that vultures do. It seems like you start with a criteria of what you think Mech is, but then change the rules as soon as you realise that HOTS units fulfil your criteria . As a clear example, why does widow mines taking up supply make any difference? this wasn't in your original criteria yet it's your sole reason for claiming widow mines aren't "mech-like". In my opinion this would've been a good post if it was more objective, and had less of a blatant BW bias.
The real distinction is that mech has no unit capable of positional-based, massive AOE. Tanks have been massively nerfed. All we are saying is--bring them back. Moreover, T needs a zero-supply-cost, mineral-only, passive map control option in the mech tech tree. Terran does not have that right now.
On August 14 2012 19:57 XenoX101 wrote: Meh, this is just another thinly veiled "SC2 is bad because it isn't Brood War" post. Both Widow Mines and Warhounds fulfil your criteria of what mech is. And the mobility of goliaths contradict your points against the Battle Hellion/Thor/etc.. Moreover you are incorrect about how hellions attack, they attack in a single burst the same way that vultures do. It seems like you start with a criteria of what you think Mech is, but then change the rules as soon as you realise that HOTS units fulfil your criteria . As a clear example, why does widow mines taking up supply make any difference? this wasn't in your original criteria yet it's your sole reason for claiming widow mines aren't "mech-like". In my opinion this would've been a good post if it was more objective, and had less of a blatant BW bias.
This seems to be the sentiment of the entire community, or a least terrans who think they know what they want. And what they want is to build all tanks all the time. Some of the posts and over all themes that the community seems to latch onto degrade down to "Can that new unit kill at tank? Yes? Horrible design!"
What people want is positional based play, were players make decisions on what ground they wish to hold and what they are willing to give up. Blizzard tried to demo something like that, but it would not have mattered if they reskinned an old BW match, people still would have complained. Personally, as long as there are decisions being made on where terrans set up their tanks and when they move them, people are getting what they asked for.
On August 14 2012 19:57 XenoX101 wrote: Meh, this is just another thinly veiled "SC2 is bad because it isn't Brood War" post. Both Widow Mines and Warhounds fulfil your criteria of what mech is. And the mobility of goliaths contradict your points against the Battle Hellion/Thor/etc.. Moreover you are incorrect about how hellions attack, they attack in a single burst the same way that vultures do. It seems like you start with a criteria of what you think Mech is, but then change the rules as soon as you realise that HOTS units fulfil your criteria . As a clear example, why does widow mines taking up supply make any difference? this wasn't in your original criteria yet it's your sole reason for claiming widow mines aren't "mech-like". In my opinion this would've been a good post if it was more objective, and had less of a blatant BW bias.
What are you saying...Have you played or watched any broodwar at all?
Goliaths are godawful units. They're only made to deal with carriers/stop one arbiter from poking your army to death. They lose to anything protoss builds against them minus carriers, and even than it's close (and scouts of course). That's like saying because infestor/broodlord/corruptor/zergling involves zerglings, the whole composition is mobile. edit: forgot you can also build goliaths to stop zlot bombs.
Hellions have a huge cooldown on atk. You need to atk and wait a sec and then atk. Vultures don't - with good micro it's almost like they fire and move. Vultures don't, "attack in a burst" at all either what are you saying. That's like saying maruders atk in a burst.
Why does widow mines taking up supply matter? Because you could have 50 mines on a map protecting flanks/covering the front of your army/protecting your base from recalls. GL spending 50 supply on this. Plus they're expensive. They're only a 'mine' in name, not in sense. They take money & supply: no one calls the baneling a spider mine but they might as well if this qualifies as a 'mine' in your book.
In my opinion your post would've been a good post if it was less stupid, and had more thinking involved in writing it.
The Warhound, as weird it seems, contribute to mech play in TvP (and Mech you're reffering with tanks and positional play). They are in the game to counter a guy called immortal that, in the actual game, roflstomp every terran mechanical unit. They will probably make the Protoss think twice before Blink in your tanks too, because this will means that they'll be ripped off the map. (The Warhound kill stalkers ridicously fast too). Generally he will work as a Mech guardian.
And Mech without Tanks just doesn't make sense. If you wanna mobility, you play Bio. Mech in HotS will be always BH, WH e Tanks, with Vikings and Thors as need it. You will see Tanks because is just better. A positional big ass army that kills whatever comes in its range.
In TvT, Mech probably will be viable too. As i said, The Warhound works as Mech guardian, he'll protect your tanks from whatever dumb a-move composition the enemy makes.
On August 14 2012 20:11 Herect wrote: The Warhound, as weird it seems, contribute to mech play in TvP (and Mech you're reffering with tanks and positional play). They are in the game to counter a guy called immortal that, in the actual game, roflstomp every terran mechanical unit. They will probably make the Protoss think twice before Blink in your tanks too, because this will means that they'll be ripped off the map. (The Warhound kill stalkers ridicously fast too). Generally he will work as a Mech guardian.
And Mech without Tanks just doesn't make sense. If you wanna mobility, you play Bio. Mech in HotS will be always BH, WH e Tanks, with Vikings and Thors as need it. You will see Tanks because is just better. A positional big ass army that kills whatever comes in its range.
In TvT, Mech probably will be viable too. As i said, The Warhound works as Mech guardian, he'll protect your tanks from whatever dumb a-move composition the enemy makes.
Why not just give mech a passive anti-bio damage ability? Something like "radioactive armor" that passively damages all biological units that surround a mechanical unit? Make it cost energy, make it something that can only be activated on friendly units (not cast from a spellcaster), and make it shave percentage points off bio HP as opposed to fixed damage.
This would completely make chargelot/archon/immortal cost inefficient vs mech, which would be awesome
I might be missing something here, but it feels like you just created your own definition of "mech style" (which many may agree with).
Since HotS isn't out yet, I can't say if I like the new mech units, but they might create a new "mech style". It feels like a sentimental bias/attachment to believe that the BW "mech style" is the one and only true "mech style".
Mech play is indeed the most interesting, lovely, brainy and RTS-ish thing I've ever witnessed on a videogame. It was ridiculously amazing on BW, it's less and less viable on SC2, and it saddens me.
On August 14 2012 07:47 Falling wrote: 1) I don't think they're goal to make bio and mech viable in TvT will ever work. At most we see bio-mech, but I don't think we'll ever see pure mech style play because it's such a tremendous sacrifice. Bio will always be more preferable. More on that later.
Maybe i misunderstood , but are u saying mech isnt viable in tvt now? or will be so in HotS?
Because i'll argue that tank, hellion (with vikings) are very viable in tvt in WoL. can u clearify that for me?
i would not try to hang onto something "the way it was", before you really experienced the "new way".. maybe this brings BCs to an earlier stage of TvT or even TvP? nice post nevertheless.
On August 14 2012 20:21 MrCash wrote: I might be missing something here, but it feels like you just created your own definition of "mech style" (which many may agree with).
Since HotS isn't out yet, I can't say if I like the new mech units, but they might create a new "mech style". It feels like a sentimental bias/attachment to believe that the BW "mech style" is the one and only true "mech style".
Edit: To make more sense.
You know I really like your post. It makes a lot of sense to me. But I think the point of the post, and the point of what Blizzard has been pushing with it's new mech units, is that they WANT the bw style of extremely slow, positional based play. They don't just want people to build more factory units and say - "here is mech". That's why they're adding the widow mine, war hound, and battle hellion. That or they're hoping if they let us build maruders from the factory, we're so stupid we'll think that we're playing BW mech again. Because from what it looks like, the new factory units are like...barracks units...from a factory.
And maybe sc2 mech will evolve into something as interesting as BW mech, but (and this is my opinion entirely), Blizzard as it's doing now probably won't let that happen. I mean, afaik the last BW balance patch was in mid-2001 (1.08?) and than they left it alone for 11 years to thrive (and by left it alone, I mean they didn't kill it). SC2 wil have balance patches till next expansion, than balance patches in that til the next expansion, than balance patches till at some point 5 years from now they have a stable game, and from this stable game you can start designing maps to balance the game. But by than Blizzard will have SC3 in the works and kill off LotV (I think).
broodwar terran mech ... I miss you so much and playing as a terran commander commanding a control 200/200 mech army feels really powerful and strategic provided you did calculation and took your risk because unsieging vs a 200/200 protoss army is a no go at all . Than again this blog made my eye watery nothing beats playing as terran and marching down your vultures+goliath+siege tank on the map and taking down everything that stands in your way to victory .
5/5 op put a lot thought and time in to the post he deserves it and majority of his point is valid ( bw bias) but who cares . Siege tanks are the most beautiful unit in broodwar hell if i could I would max 200/200 purely siege tanks.
Some where in iccup this music is blasting and siege tanks are rolling out ... <3
5/5 this blog exactly shares my point of view regarding mech in SC2... So please listen to this guy Blizz and don't fuck it up even more... From what I saw in the new Battle Report, the Warhound (at least it's role as anti-mech-unit in a mech army right now) is SUCH a bad unit... Why does Zerg become so BW-ish in HotS (Lurker 2.0 - Defiler 2.0) while Terran gets Spider Mines 0.2 and Goliath 0.2 (Not even shooting against air?! WTF!)... But I'm zoning out
Nice read, good and thorough look on how Mech did work in BW and how it should work in SC2. <3
EPT
. Siege tanks are the most beautiful unit in broodwar hell if i could I would max 200/200 purely siege tanks.
