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On August 15 2012 09:22 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 06:16 avilo wrote:
And because blizzard has purposely made it so widow mines and siege tanks do not work well together, positional play is completely 100% gone from mech because since you can't have siege tanks with mines to be effective...(the tanks kill whatever mines would attach to) this means you simply do not build tanks but you build warhounds, or if you do for some reason build tanks you don't build the mines with your army...which defeats the point of positional mech play in a lot of ways...
They need to drastically overhaul and re-design the mine and the warhound. You also run into the distinct WOL problem still when your opponent goes void rays...you have nothing that can shoot up. The mine only helps mech vs void rays in pure opening build orders on defense a bit. In terms of when you're out on the map, you're extremely still vulnerable to void rays because protoss has to be naive enough to walk void rays or air units into mines.
Bring back the goliath *cough* is the short answer, and bring back the spider mine *cough* if something is not broken...do not try to fix it. I'm certainly not one to say Blizzard has made the right design choices but I feel like it's way too early to say something like mines and tanks don't work well together. The cost and supply and detonation time for the widow mines certainly make them less attractive than spider mines but it's still possible that at the right time on the right map a few good strats could develop. For example imagine the mines placed in drop paths or at a backramp. Think everytime you play WoL and have to unsiege to reposition your tanks if you had a few mines in place to delay them. If you are killing mined units perhaps the answer is the mines can be even further up. Or maybe they would be good planted with your army so that if your position is overrun they can work akin to defensive nukes/storms.
As of right now it's not too early to say, i've tested it many times already, mines and tanks do not work together in their current form and they have said that this is intentional. But it's a catch-22. Because if you make the game so you purposely have to only have widow mines alone out on the map...then that is supply out of your main army which means your opponent's 1A deathball is stronger than yours and they have an advantage because of you building the mines.
The reason widow mines and tanks don't work together is because if you include them in your army and protoss or zerg 1a into you, the front units get the mines attach and then those are the ones that are killed by your siege tanks/other mech units meaning the mines literally did nothing for you during the battle and were a waste of resources, supply, build time, everything.
The only situation they would be cost effective in is where you have a lot of mines with your army and you lure the opponent's army into the mines and then you literally run away. The problem with this is doing this actually encourages you as a Terran player to not use siege tanks because you obviously cannot run away if you're tanks are in immobile siege mode.
The warhound does virtually everything the tank does at a lower supply cost, lower minerals/gas cost, and is not limited by mobility, and requires zero positioning and zero micro.
Blizzard has had a chip on their shoulder in terms of "not making the game like brood war" ever since the SC2 beta when mech was very viable and they literally nerfed and killed the siege tank, the backbone of mech. They are still currently try harding as best they can to make the tank not viable and not the core of "mech" when the fact is virtually every SC2 player/fan is calling for a game with more depth and positional units and everything they are doing to mech right now in HOTS just does not promote siege tank usage.
As far as I'm concerned right now as it is the warhound is a marauder in a gundam suit, and they really are going to have to do a lot of work to re-design these units, and take a long look in the mirror and decide " is it OK if we bring the spider mine back, is it OK that we make the tank like it was in brood war."
I think myself and others do not understand what the SC2 design team's aversion is to mech being like brood war and the siege tank being strong. The spider mine alone and the siege tank alone in brood war made TvP a very positional game and micro intensive.
But the core thing is, a mine cannot take up supply - it just can't happen if you want the game to be less "death-bally." The other two races deathballs actually get STRONGER in HOTS, and the mine only takes away supply from the Terran's "deathball" or army in HOTS because it takes up supply.
Can you imagine a current wings of liberty mech or even bio game right now where you have 20-30 supply out on the map, out of your main army, and protoss attacks you with their full 200/200 deathball? It's not a pretty picture.
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On August 15 2012 12:33 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:47 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:32 GinDo wrote:This is what Terran Mech needs. It's an upgrade from campaign. I think it creates the perfect balalnce between buffing it in TvP yet having a minimal effect in TvZ(Except against Ultralisk, but Zerg have tons on Tank Counters that aren't Ultra). I also think that this would be enough to crap on WH if they try A-moving into tank lines. Maelstrom Rounds
Crucio Shock Cannon deals +40 damage to primary target. Splash damage remains the same. Wouldn't it be better to give tanks the upgrade that reduced their friendly fire damage by 75%? Personally I think not. Mealstrom Rounds are a more dynamic upgrade. Not only does it cause the tank to do more damage on the Primary Target, but it also benefits the high APM player who focus fires his tanks. It also makes it so Terran doesn't have to waste Supply building Vikings, since the Tank can do more DMG against Collosi if focus fired. With Mealstrom Rounds a Tank does 100 dmg against a Collosi, killing it in 4 volleys, compared to an original 8 shots with no Mealstrom Rounds. Reduction of friendly splash fixes an issue that can easily be resolved simply by spreading out your Tanks.
They basically need to give an upgrade to the siege tank to turn it into a brood war siege tank in terms of damage output/splash.
People seem to forget or simply don't know this...but going mech in TvP was actually viable during the beta and ages ago and browder/kim purposely decided to kill it by changing the siege tank damage from 60 to what it currently is now.
You could 100% go full mech and get cost effective trades back then, I remember going mech every single TvP and if Protoss 1A'd into a pre-sieged position you would always trade cost effectively and retain a lot of tanks.
After the siege tank damage nerf, and zealot armor change, every single game from that point forward whenever protoss would 1A into a pre-sieged position, they actually always come out ahead or trade uber effectively with only chargelots + any gas unit.
I think every single player on these forums would rather see real MECH take the forefront in HOTS aka siege tanks and spider mine type things with positioning that could be used with your army like brood war leapfrogging rather than a marauder in a gundam suit dresed up to be "mech" when it really isn't.
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United States10328 Posts
You point out the strengths/main points of BW mech play quite nicely; are you trying to say that Blizzard should aim to re-create this in SC2, or just pointing out how their attempt at "mech play" is totally flawed?
You also point out some features of SC2 (no high-ground miss chance, existence of cliff-walkers, lots o' death balls, smart-casting) that make mech play less viable; should Blizzard remove these as well?
... Basically, what I'm getting is: you want BW back. 
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Excellent read. I feel depressed about sc2 now, I don't believe blizzard will solve anything and we can't do anything about the game at its current state. Maybe we just have to get used to the fact that starcraft is not the best game to play anymore signifying the end of RTS genre games. I have no faith in this game since it will be who has the best deathball to win.
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The TvP battle report doesn't bode well for the future of mech in HoTS.
And - even though we might not've had "real mech" so far - I did still quite enjoy the few times I've watched MVP utilize mech.
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This is absolutely spot on. You should work for blizz.
Also, your making me want to play BW (I've never played it)
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Warhound is a terrible unit and widow mines dont fill their role properly but i dont agree with you in wanting the game to be like bw all over again. I actually enjoyed how sc2 tvt reached a point where biomech, bio and mech all were viable on some maps and all could transition to mass air. Imo playing bio in TvP and TvZ is more interesting than mech and i think new combinations like marine thor raven are interesting and fresh.
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the tank gets even more hardcounters in HOTS, be it the warhound, the viper, the ultralisk with his charge, and protoss even has cloaking fields and the tempest ON TOP of immortals, chargelots and archons...
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What i would give to have the 70 damage on the tank back, it feels wrong when you stim a bio army and with great spread you'll crush the tank line..
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On August 15 2012 16:04 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 12:33 GinDo wrote:On August 15 2012 10:47 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:32 GinDo wrote:This is what Terran Mech needs. It's an upgrade from campaign. I think it creates the perfect balalnce between buffing it in TvP yet having a minimal effect in TvZ(Except against Ultralisk, but Zerg have tons on Tank Counters that aren't Ultra). I also think that this would be enough to crap on WH if they try A-moving into tank lines. Maelstrom Rounds
Crucio Shock Cannon deals +40 damage to primary target. Splash damage remains the same. Wouldn't it be better to give tanks the upgrade that reduced their friendly fire damage by 75%? Personally I think not. Mealstrom Rounds are a more dynamic upgrade. Not only does it cause the tank to do more damage on the Primary Target, but it also benefits the high APM player who focus fires his tanks. It also makes it so Terran doesn't have to waste Supply building Vikings, since the Tank can do more DMG against Collosi if focus fired. With Mealstrom Rounds a Tank does 100 dmg against a Collosi, killing it in 4 volleys, compared to an original 8 shots with no Mealstrom Rounds. Reduction of friendly splash fixes an issue that can easily be resolved simply by spreading out your Tanks. They basically need to give an upgrade to the siege tank to turn it into a brood war siege tank in terms of damage output/splash. People seem to forget or simply don't know this...but going mech in TvP was actually viable during the beta and ages ago and browder/kim purposely decided to kill it by changing the siege tank damage from 60 to what it currently is now. You could 100% go full mech and get cost effective trades back then, I remember going mech every single TvP and if Protoss 1A'd into a pre-sieged position you would always trade cost effectively and retain a lot of tanks. After the siege tank damage nerf, and zealot armor change, every single game from that point forward whenever protoss would 1A into a pre-sieged position, they actually always come out ahead or trade uber effectively with only chargelots + any gas unit. I think every single player on these forums would rather see real MECH take the forefront in HOTS aka siege tanks and spider mine type things with positioning that could be used with your army like brood war leapfrogging rather than a marauder in a gundam suit dresed up to be "mech" when it really isn't.
Well the issue with giving it it's old attack is that Shit clumps in SC2. And Tanks were retarded against Zerg. Mealstrom Rounds boost the dmg on a promary target. Protoss is a supply heavy race with fewer stronger units. Also taking not that +40 on the Primary target means that without overkill, your siege splash will spread out more. Will it still be more effective against Zerg? Yes, because Tanks will now actually kill ultras and splash will spread out more.
Also PS, Tanks did 35 to Zeals in BW. The only diffrence is that Shields take full dmg, but seeing how effective Helions with Blueflame are, I don't have an issue.
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Its kind of sad that blizzard is making another blind shot. Like they did with protoss harass options, and unit design.  Sometimes i wonder if actually pulling units straight from BW to simply copy lackluster non-T drop play and Terran mech is not better option, for sake of the future.
Even if they will wise up it will still take 3 years until we see changes in last expansion.
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On August 15 2012 21:49 bgx wrote:Its kind of sad that blizzard is making another blind shot. Like they did with protoss harass options, and unit design. Sometimes i wonder if actually pulling units straight from BW to simply copy lackluster non-T drop play and Terran mech is not better option, for sake of the future. Even if they will wise up it will still take 3 years until we see changes in last expansion.
Personally I am very disappointing for everything, but Zerg. Zerg really did get the bigger end of the stick this time T_T. Protoss gets more stuff that's countered by Vikings and Corruptors, and Terran gets Gundam Marauders.+ Show Spoiler +Blizzard really needs to fix the Collosi. Because of way it is countered by air, a transition from Robo to Stargate is impossible, because both Zerg and Terran already have an answer to them already. Especially because of the way larva injects, and reactors work
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On August 15 2012 16:04 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 12:33 GinDo wrote:On August 15 2012 10:47 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:32 GinDo wrote:This is what Terran Mech needs. It's an upgrade from campaign. I think it creates the perfect balalnce between buffing it in TvP yet having a minimal effect in TvZ(Except against Ultralisk, but Zerg have tons on Tank Counters that aren't Ultra). I also think that this would be enough to crap on WH if they try A-moving into tank lines. Maelstrom Rounds
Crucio Shock Cannon deals +40 damage to primary target. Splash damage remains the same. Wouldn't it be better to give tanks the upgrade that reduced their friendly fire damage by 75%? Personally I think not. Mealstrom Rounds are a more dynamic upgrade. Not only does it cause the tank to do more damage on the Primary Target, but it also benefits the high APM player who focus fires his tanks. It also makes it so Terran doesn't have to waste Supply building Vikings, since the Tank can do more DMG against Collosi if focus fired. With Mealstrom Rounds a Tank does 100 dmg against a Collosi, killing it in 4 volleys, compared to an original 8 shots with no Mealstrom Rounds. Reduction of friendly splash fixes an issue that can easily be resolved simply by spreading out your Tanks. They basically need to give an upgrade to the siege tank to turn it into a brood war siege tank in terms of damage output/splash. People seem to forget or simply don't know this...but going mech in TvP was actually viable during the beta and ages ago and browder/kim purposely decided to kill it by changing the siege tank damage from 60 to what it currently is now. You could 100% go full mech and get cost effective trades back then, I remember going mech every single TvP and if Protoss 1A'd into a pre-sieged position you would always trade cost effectively and retain a lot of tanks. After the siege tank damage nerf, and zealot armor change, every single game from that point forward whenever protoss would 1A into a pre-sieged position, they actually always come out ahead or trade uber effectively with only chargelots + any gas unit. I think every single player on these forums would rather see real MECH take the forefront in HOTS aka siege tanks and spider mine type things with positioning that could be used with your army like brood war leapfrogging rather than a marauder in a gundam suit dresed up to be "mech" when it really isn't.
If you want it to turn into BW Siege Tank, you have to enable the Overkill, since currently Tanks don't have the Overkill, which is exactly the problem for masses of small units, and it is absolutely retarded. But I really don't see the problem with Siege Tanks right now, people are making it up when they say that they are useless. Mass of Siege Tanks are still damn good, but of course, you need other units that will soak up the damage. With addition of Warhounds and Battle Hellions, I don't see masses of Charglots being a problem anymore.
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Nice read !
I don't really like so much mech play but for sure warhound is not the solution. HOTS mines fill a good role for mech though.
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I agree that widow mine cost supply usage is counter productive to the ability to use mech.
So allow me to help.
Remove building attack from reapers and give them something like 'perimeter charges' with a limit of 2-4 uses. The ability would allow you basically to set a 'trip wire' in a small range 5-7. You click to drop the charge and then select the charge (sort of like a creep tumor) and it allows you to select where to put the other end of the wire within the radius of 5-7. Any unit that crosses the straight line between the 2 charges will cause a splash damage effect in a straight line between the two charges. Maybe add in a check to make sure that no 2 'trip wires' can cross.
It's not spider/widow mines, it won't hit air, it will give you a reason to make reapers, and it could make for some interesting spectating.
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On August 15 2012 23:07 mythandier wrote:
Let me help.
Remove building attack from reapers and give them something like 'perimeter charges' with a limit of 2-4 uses. The ability would allow you basically to set a 'trip wire' in a small range 5-7. You click to drop the charge and then select the charge (sort of like a creep tumor) and it allows you to select where to put the other end of the wire within the radius of 5-7. Any unit that crosses the straight line between the 2 charges will cause a splash damage effect in a straight line between the two charges. Maybe add in a check to make sure that no 2 'trip wires' can cross.
It's not spider/widow mines, it won't hit air, it will give you a reason to make reapers, and it could make for some interesting spectating.
And what do you do with Reapers at 0/0, since you are going mech that has a diferent upgrade path.
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On August 15 2012 23:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:
And what do you do with Reapers at 0/0, since you are going mech that has a diferent upgrade path.
I suppose you could just overhaul the unit altogether, keep the speed, make cliff jump an upgrade, make it a mechanical/biological unit called a cyborg or something, give it slightly more hp and make it require a factory to be built and use mech upgrades.
Either that or use them to harass mineral lines after since even 0/0 reapers 3 shot workers.
Either way it would allow multiple zoning bombs/mines/whatever at the cost of 1 supply and less $.
That's just shooting from the hip.
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On August 15 2012 23:15 mythandier wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 23:12 Sapphire.lux wrote:
And what do you do with Reapers at 0/0, since you are going mech that has a diferent upgrade path. I suppose you could just overhaul the unit altogether, keep the speed, make cliff jump an upgrade, make it a mechanical/biological unit called a cyborg or something, give it slightly more hp and make it require a factory to be built and use mech upgrades. That's just shooting from the hip.
Yeah, but it would be easier to just give that ability as an upgrade to an existing factory unit...like the Hellion.
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EPT
