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Aelonius
Netherlands432 Posts
Especially when more and more foreigners get into China, the country changes as fast. A year ago, the city I was in didn't put effort into safety for anyone not in a car. Now they are actively pushing to get safer roads (by pressure from the community as opposed to the government). Progress is a slow process, and one wrong step could put you back decades. | ||
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sevencck
Canada705 Posts
On July 02 2012 10:48 Aelonius wrote:Do you think that the Chinese government looks forward to drop the democracy bombshell in one go, guaranteed to destabilize the country? No they won't. Sure, there's a few powergreedy people in the country but look at ANY country in the world, and it'll be there. It does not matter if you're American, German, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese or whatnot. Whenever there's power for grab, it corrupts people. My view on the current progress of China is that they gradually loosen the reigns, and give more power back to the people. It is a slow process, and they ain't there yet but they do it in a smart, well-prepared way to avoid anarchy. There's alot in your post (some of which I agree with), but basically it boils down to this. You believe the Chinese govt. is validated in doing what it's doing because China as a country isn't prepared for democracy, would crumble if it tried, and thus the current totalitarian regime must enforce draconian policies to prevent social progress that might undermine the authority of the state. This is what most dictators maintain. Egypt was doing fundamentally the same thing, as was Syria, Iraq, etc. etc. etc. As long as the government of China behaves in this way, they'll be condemned for it. Certainly by me. The British Empire (and thus indirectly Canada) has had over five hundred years of continuous development of their society, and after all those years they are at the point that we see in 2012. China has had over 2000 years of history, but never consistency as the Empire has had. The Qing Dynasty left the country broke and shattered, and in 101 years they have built something that took the English 500 years (and already is corroding). Denying that simple fact is ignorance. To deny that China has had equal time to develop is ignorant. You think the history of Western Europe and America is that of a utopia? There have been numerous problems and power struggles in the West. China is no different. Besides, who says poor decisions on the part of those in power isn't part of a nation's development? China also hasn't had to reinvent the wheel, making it even more likely to succeed. They've had access to the knowledge and technology of the rest of the world. They get to pick and choose what they like, and condemn the political views that created it? What the "English" built is corroding? Not sure what you mean by that, but I'd say a society that observes human rights is better than one that doesn't (as a generalization), even if there are undeniably some very severe problems in the West. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11567 Posts
On July 02 2012 10:48 Aelonius wrote: The British Empire (and thus indirectly Canada) has had over five hundred years of continuous development of their society, and after all those years they are at the point that we see in 2012. China has had over 2000 years of history, but never consistency as the Empire has had. The Qing Dynasty left the country broke and shattered, and in 101 years they have built something that took the English 500 years (and already is corroding). Denying that simple fact is ignorance. I didn't read the rest of your post, but I had to address this. If you look at where the English were in 1500s and where the Chinese were in 1500s you would see a world of difference. The Ming Dynasty was much more influential and prosperous than some English peasantry. Throughout history, China (and also India) have been at the head of progress while the relatively insignificant (since the fall of the Roman Empire) European nations bickered among themselves. It was only until after 1700s when the Europeans were actually able to negotiate on equal grounds with the Chinese. Of course, this all changed later on, but for most of the past 2000 years, China has been far, far ahead of Europe. | ||
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Aelonius
Netherlands432 Posts
First, China wasn't an united country untill the CPC won the war with the KMT. Before that it was shaky, according to history. This makes it hard to pull the same feats that a stable country like England does. So far I think we can agree, right? In regards to my point, let me tl;dr it for you, Seven. My problem lies with people who blindly follow the media, and do not perform personal research. I am against bashing China as I can see from sources other than FOXnews or local equivalents, that China is gradually improving. It may not be as fast as the world wants it to see, but change happens and if you're in China it actually happens quite fast from a foreign perspective. My point is that the countries where the people who are bashing China hail from, are generally countries which have been relatively stable in "design" over the past centuries, where as this is a problematic issue with the Chinese system. That's why I symphatize with the changes not being accute, but gradually. China does not want to be the Soviet Union all over again. People need to stop judging without being informed. There's a whole world of information people. Use it. FragKrag: + Show Spoiler + FragKrag. I agree, save for the fact that they still lived under an Imperial rule, which in essence is totalitarian aswell. The main point I try to address through these examples is that, yes China has problems. No they are not correct but it is ignorant to judge on the moment and not look into progress made. Progression is happening, for Chinese measurements fast aswell. But it takes time. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
Overpopulation is also what leads the government to have so much control over the people. I was in France during 2005 riots, and I took almost a month to stop people from burning cars everywhere. I can't imagine how it could be if something similar in China would happen. Imagine the whole E.U + the whole America + the whole Latin America population living in a country smaller than Canada. Also, imagine how elections would be incredibly shitty to organize. The US model, federalism with state governments and a federal government wouldn't work at all here. China is still developing and needs huge investments at the country level (which is basically take the money from the East coast and use it to support the development of the rest of the country) And when you think that controversies like Bush vs Gore election occurred, when it took so long to count the votes again, when so few people actually voted... On July 02 2012 12:12 FragKrag wrote: I didn't read the rest of your post, but I had to address this. If you look at where the English were in 1500s and where the Chinese were in 1500s you would see a world of difference. The Ming Dynasty was much more influential and prosperous than some English peasantry. Throughout history, China (and also India) have been at the head of progress while the relatively insignificant (since the fall of the Roman Empire) European nations bickered among themselves. It was only until after 1700s when the Europeans were actually able to negotiate on equal grounds with the Chinese. Of course, this all changed later on, but for most of the past 2000 years, China has been far, far ahead of Europe. Yes, and if Europe could catch up during the Renaissance and after, it's with the help of slavery and resources from colonies. Then they actually colonized China and imposed a lot of treaties that weakened China a lot. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11567 Posts
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On July 02 2012 12:32 Aelonius wrote: First, China wasn't an united country untill the CPC won the war with the KMT. Before that it was shaky, according to history. This makes it hard to pull the same feats that a stable country like England does. So far I think we can agree, right? You don't have to look farther away from China's borders than Taiwan or South Korea for an examples of nations that have stepped away from authoritarian government systems without catastrophic failure you predict. I don't understand how you think you can reasonably argue that China's failure to do so is because of some cultural reason or because they have somehow been disadvantaged compared to the rest of the world for the past 500 years. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:25 CobaltBlu wrote: You don't have to look farther away from China's borders than Taiwan or South Korea for an examples of nations that have stepped away from authoritarian government systems without catastrophic failure you predict. I don't understand how you think you can reasonably argue that China's failure to do so is because of some cultural reason or because they have somehow been disadvantaged compared to the rest of the world for the past 500 years. China is bigger. Taiwan/South Korea is about the same size as one Chinese province. | ||
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FXOBoSs
337 Posts
Its almost IMPOSSIBLE to do business in china as a foreigner, without major local representation. The 'politics' in business is so underhanded and unpredictable. It replicates that of a communist nation. HOWEVER. China is for the most part not communist. The thing people do not understand is that "old habits die hard". The ways of the USSR still exist in alot of the baltic states and russia. Egypt will become equally as corrupt as it previously was. So on so forth. It takes generations to change the actual mindset and actions of people and this is not really the peoples fault its history's fault. I am a big supporter of china, and am trying to do business in China however the powerful people there make it so very difficult when you are honest. Nice blog by the way, its very informative. Regards FXOBoSs | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:30 haduken wrote: China is bigger. Taiwan/South Korea is about the same size as one Chinese province. I'm not contending that China doesn't face issues when it comes to moving away from authoritarian government but that saying it is incapable because of the culture of the region or a past civil war isn't a good excuse. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11567 Posts
On July 02 2012 14:01 CobaltBlu wrote: I'm not contending that China doesn't face issues when it comes to moving away from authoritarian government but that saying it is incapable because of the culture of the region or a past civil war isn't a good excuse. Nobody is saying 'culture of the region' or 'past civil war' It's all about the fact that the vast majority of the country are still rural uneducated farmers who have no idea what is going on with politics, nor do they care for the most part. The more people you have, the harder it is to change, especially if they are mostly uneducated. Please don't compare largely urban country (South Korea) with 50 million people or a small island (both largely influenced by the United States) to a country with over a billion. | ||
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Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
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Aelonius
Netherlands432 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:54 FXOBoSs wrote: This is a very sensitive subject. And so I am going to only say 1 thing that I know. Its almost IMPOSSIBLE to do business in china as a foreigner, without major local representation. The 'politics' in business is so underhanded and unpredictable. It replicates that of a communist nation. HOWEVER. China is for the most part not communist. The thing people do not understand is that "old habits die hard". The ways of the USSR still exist in alot of the baltic states and russia. Egypt will become equally as corrupt as it previously was. So on so forth. It takes generations to change the actual mindset and actions of people and this is not really the peoples fault its history's fault. I am a big supporter of china, and am trying to do business in China however the powerful people there make it so very difficult when you are honest. Nice blog by the way, its very informative. Regards FXOBoSs Dear Boss, thanks for coining in! I agree with most parts of this statement, it basicly sums up what I've tried to say in a bigger way. However I quickly want to add that these days China is stimulating foreign investment and business by opening up regions (such as the Fujian province) to have more relaxed rules. The way you do business comes down from the culture. In China the business is much more conducted on a level of them liking you, and less on "oh we're company X and it's mutually beneficial". That's something important to keep in mind. That said, it isn't impossible anymore to do business once you understand their mindset. =) | ||
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Aelonius
Netherlands432 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:25 CobaltBlu wrote: You don't have to look farther away from China's borders than Taiwan or South Korea for an examples of nations that have stepped away from authoritarian government systems without catastrophic failure you predict. I don't understand how you think you can reasonably argue that China's failure to do so is because of some cultural reason or because they have somehow been disadvantaged compared to the rest of the world for the past 500 years. Taiwan isn't in a good position either in terms of government corruption. South Korea and Taiwan have recieved Western aid forever (mostly U.S.) to develop, where as China basicly did it on it's own. Also, China's population is so much bigger that there's a whole different set of things to keep in mind. Remember that China has four times the amount of inhabitants compared to the US, and almost double of the EU and USA together. (EU has approx 400m and USA 300m. according to wikipedia) What I say is simple. While the USA and the EU member states have had reasonably stable governments and countries as a whole in the last 2 centuries, this doesn't apply to China to the slightest. If I break your leg now and you learn to run again in 10 weeks, then it's much more impressive than me who has been running for years. See what I mean? It definatly has an effect on the country, and add the problems you see in other former communist-minded countries, and you realise that there's a major chance for catastrophe in the Soviet Union (again see Gorbachev) with less people. That >will< be a major risk in China too  | ||
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
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BreAKerTV
Taiwan1658 Posts
On October 29 2012 03:47 reincremate wrote: No worries folks--in the past several decades, China has truly made progress in becoming a decadent, capitalist evil empire much like the good old US of A. You can eat carcinogenic food grown by Monsanto, wear Nike shoes made in a sweatshop, read about the details of Kim Kardiashian's personal life whether you live in New York or Shanghai, Bismarck or Chongqing. Why did you bump this? And Caihead, I enjoyed the post that you made, lengthy as it was. Caihead knows my ideals. I lived in China for a year. I agree with everything that was posted in his OP. However, I can't help but state the pieces that throw me off: Should the CCP do nothing about the vast gaps between social classes? I mean, compare a countryside farmer in China to a countryside farmer in America. If neither of them has insurance or is denied medical insurance, they're gonna die no matter what. But at the same time, which one makes more money and which one is more likely to have access to medical care if they contract, say, testicular cancer or appendicitis? At the same time, I criticize every single American that blindly says things like, "Free Tibet! Boycott trade with China!" and so on because it just really is not that viable. Secondly, countries with economic ties are less likely to go to war. The only exception to this rule was pre-World War One Europe. I really can't find a middle-ground. | ||
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Proseat
Germany5113 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state Communist state, in popular usage, is a state with a form of government characterized by single-party rule or dominant-party rule of a communist party and a professed allegiance to a Leninist or Marxist–Leninist communist ideology as the guiding principle of the state. Theoretically, "communist state" is a contradictio in terminis as a communist society as defined by both Marxists and anarcho-communists is in principle stateless. From this perspective, Marxist–Leninist state is more appropriate and applicable. In practice, communist states do not refer to themselves as communist states. They do this not to disguise the fact that the ruling party is communist, but rather because they do not consider themselves to be a communist society at present. Instead, they constitutionally identify themselves as socialist states or workers' states. The primary goal of these states, which also explains their official name, is to guide their respective countries in the process of building socialism, ultimately leading to communism. In the 20th century, most communist states adopted planned economies. However, there were exceptions: The Soviet Union during the 1920s and late 1980s and Yugoslavia after World War II allowed limited markets and a degree of worker self-management, while China, Vietnam and Laos introduced far-reaching market reforms after the 1980s. In the 21st century, China and Vietnam have allowed a mixed economy to develop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy I can attest to the chosen terminology as I've grown up in a supposedly Communist country (preferred term in English, basically not used in West Germany). There it was never called Communist, but Socialist, despite the fact that there was no market or mixed economy but a planned economy. China started to transition away from a planned to a mixed economy already back in the 1980s and along with Yugoslavia had always been the odd one out in the Eastern bloc in the final stages of the Cold War. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On July 02 2012 00:46 SeeKeR wrote: Haters gonna hate. Nothing u can do about it. No lie, some people just vote 1 star regardless of the quality of the blog. :/ PM from Kushm4sta on my blogs lol Original Message From kushm4sta: i rate them all 1/5 | ||
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Funnytoss
Taiwan1471 Posts
On October 29 2012 06:11 Shady Sands wrote: PM from Kushm4sta on my blogs lol Some men just want to watch the world burn. | ||
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