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Tipping debates on TL always make me cringe.
As someone who has worked in restaurants as both a server and a cook (I currently cook and have for the last five years) who has only done so in Canada, I can say this.
Tipping for good service is a near must. I am not saying this because you should feel bad for the servers or what not. I say it because of the general (not always) sense of entitlement people seem to have when they sit down in a restaurant. I say this because.
All a server in every restaurant I have ever worked has been required to do the following
Take your drink order
Take your appetizer order if you make one, otherwise your meal order
Check up on you once while eating each course, if it has bottomless refills refill your drink once
Offer you dessert/coffee then the cheque.
They are required via their job to only do that for each table.
What do most people expect when they sit down though? Are you expecting someone to ask you for refills frequently, do you want them to engage in what drinks would accompany specific menu items in detail, do you want them to always be nearby to get you something should you need it. Do you want them to be friendly and open to conversations etc.....
Anytime a server goes above the call of what I outlined above they have done service that should be tipped for. If you expect more than what I outlined above and thus don't tip then you need to sit back and realize what a server has to do for you and what they are doing.
If they are surly and gruff and the like, don't tip them. However every time someone enters a restaurant in North America you should be ready to tip 15% provided the service is good. If its bad tip accordingly. A server can gauge how good or bad a job they are doing based on the tip they are given and improve based on that. Also keep in mind servers might have a very busy section and thus won't have as much time to spend on you. IE do they have 4 tables or more. You have to gauge how busy the establishment is when you walk into be able to figure out the level of service that is going to happen as a max and thus have that as your 10-15% tip point.
For those who don't want to tip because they don't feel they should be responsible to pay a server's "wages" then be prepared to be charged more per menu item for wage increases across the board. Servers tip out hosts, bartenders, and kitchen staff usually at the end of a night, thus everyone in a restaurant would be getting a raise and near every menu item would jump a large % in price.
Tipping is so ingrained in the north american culture that unless massive wage changes happen its going to stay so rather than complaining about it, either accept that eating out requires tipping, or stop eating out.
As for the original question as to tip for pick up and delivery.
Tip on pickup if you have an insanely retarded order (ton's of mods or just a crap ton of food) as take out orders take more to put together / have a higher cost because of the take out containers and the like. If you however are picking up dinner for less than 5 people never tip on pick up.
Delivery depends. If the place is charging you an expensive delivery charge ($5-$7) never tip unless your meal is like $100 or more. If there is a super low delivery charge of like 1-2 dollars or no fee at all tip provided the driver gets to you quickly. IE did you order a small pizza? did it get to you within 30ish minutes (high volume hours 45ish) then tip, otherwise hell no.
Tipping is based on a wide variety of factors but opting to not tip just because "i don't believe in it" is not a good reason. Don't eat out at a restaurant if you don't like the custom, eat fast food.
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My dad just had to pay 20% gratuation for my graduation dinner because it had more then 10 people. It ended up being about 500 dollars...tip was around 100
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On June 26 2012 10:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:For those who don't want to tip because they don't feel they should be responsible to pay a server's "wages" then be prepared to be charged more per menu item for wage increases across the board. Servers tip out hosts, bartenders, and kitchen staff usually at the end of a night, thus everyone in a restaurant would be getting a raise and near every menu item would jump a large % in price.
Tipping is so ingrained in the north american culture that unless massive wage changes happen its going to stay so rather than complaining about it, either accept that eating out requires tipping, or stop eating out.
Interesting then that many resturants around the world in cultures where tipping isn't the standard can make it work just fine. And you know what? It's not tipping that's necessarily a problem, it's an overblown sense of entitlement and expectation. When waitresses come back to the kitchen to bitch and swear about some elderly couple who "only" left them 10%, I think there's something wrong.
Don't eat out at a restaurant if you don't like the custom, eat fast food.
I hope only to live to see the day when people en masse actually decide to listen to restaurants giving this advice, just so I can measure how quickly those restaurants change their tune.
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On June 26 2012 10:47 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 10:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:For those who don't want to tip because they don't feel they should be responsible to pay a server's "wages" then be prepared to be charged more per menu item for wage increases across the board. Servers tip out hosts, bartenders, and kitchen staff usually at the end of a night, thus everyone in a restaurant would be getting a raise and near every menu item would jump a large % in price.
Tipping is so ingrained in the north american culture that unless massive wage changes happen its going to stay so rather than complaining about it, either accept that eating out requires tipping, or stop eating out. Interesting then that many resturants around the world in cultures where tipping isn't the standard can make it work just fine. And you know what? It's not tipping that's necessarily a problem, it's an overblown sense of entitlement and expectation. When waitresses come back to the kitchen to bitch and swear about some elderly couple who "only" left them 10%, I think there's something wrong. I hope only to live to see the day when people en masse actually decide to listen to restaurants giving this advice, just so I can measure how quickly those restaurants change their tune.
They wont.
People want cheap food quickly (even in restaurants). Part of the major reason in north america food is cheap in non fine dining restaurants is cutting costs in wages (thus tips). This is to meet consumer demands for cheap food as people don't actually have a concept of how much ingredients cost or any of the other expenses a business like a restaurant has.
As for waitresses bitching about tips? All cooks know which ones are the good servers and the bad servers. IE the ones who deserve good tips and those who don't. If a good one gets shafted we kinda understand but one of the bad ones? We typically chew them out and tell them to do a better job.
As for other cultures around the world where tipping isn't a standard. Those cultures are different. Cost of living is different, wages are different, etc...
I can honestly stay from experience with most people outside of north america that the mass majority that are from oversea's are far better informed on the culinary arts. They make food at home, buy groceries, etc.... and have an appreciation for good food.
The general trend in North American is consistency over quality. People will go back to a place that consistently serves mediocre food over a place that one day could have amazing food and terrible the next.
I honestly believe that if more people were informed when it came to where all the ingredients came from, how much they cost, etc... North America would be far better. People just don't place it high on their list of things to know.
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On June 26 2012 10:47 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 10:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:For those who don't want to tip because they don't feel they should be responsible to pay a server's "wages" then be prepared to be charged more per menu item for wage increases across the board. Servers tip out hosts, bartenders, and kitchen staff usually at the end of a night, thus everyone in a restaurant would be getting a raise and near every menu item would jump a large % in price.
Tipping is so ingrained in the north american culture that unless massive wage changes happen its going to stay so rather than complaining about it, either accept that eating out requires tipping, or stop eating out. Interesting then that many resturants around the world in cultures where tipping isn't the standard can make it work just fine. And you know what? It's not tipping that's necessarily a problem, it's an overblown sense of entitlement and expectation. When waitresses come back to the kitchen to bitch and swear about some elderly couple who "only" left them 10%, I think there's something wrong. I hope only to live to see the day when people en masse actually decide to listen to restaurants giving this advice, just so I can measure how quickly those restaurants change their tune.
Having lived in 2 countries where tipping doesn't exist, and then coming to Canada, it is the most ridiculous thing ever. Why the heck should I pay someone extra for refilling my drinks or whatever (when it is their goddam job), in fact why not just leave a jug of water at my table so i can talk to my friends without being interrupted? If there is any "tipping" to be done, I'd tip the chef for making me some good food which is reasonable. Tipping on delivery is so much worse. Why should i pay extra for delivery, when I ALREADY PAY THE DELIVERY FEE TO PAY THE GUY, what else does the delivery guy do?
E: I obviously realize that they get paid less, but really why should I have to give a fuck? I'm paying a shit load of money to eat out in the first place (especially Canada), its the goddam restaurants faults for giving them shit wage.
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On June 26 2012 11:03 Elegance wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 10:47 sevencck wrote:On June 26 2012 10:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:For those who don't want to tip because they don't feel they should be responsible to pay a server's "wages" then be prepared to be charged more per menu item for wage increases across the board. Servers tip out hosts, bartenders, and kitchen staff usually at the end of a night, thus everyone in a restaurant would be getting a raise and near every menu item would jump a large % in price.
Tipping is so ingrained in the north american culture that unless massive wage changes happen its going to stay so rather than complaining about it, either accept that eating out requires tipping, or stop eating out. Interesting then that many resturants around the world in cultures where tipping isn't the standard can make it work just fine. And you know what? It's not tipping that's necessarily a problem, it's an overblown sense of entitlement and expectation. When waitresses come back to the kitchen to bitch and swear about some elderly couple who "only" left them 10%, I think there's something wrong. Don't eat out at a restaurant if you don't like the custom, eat fast food. I hope only to live to see the day when people en masse actually decide to listen to restaurants giving this advice, just so I can measure how quickly those restaurants change their tune. Having lived in 2 countries where tipping doesn't exist, and then coming to Canada, it is the most ridiculous thing ever. Why the heck should I pay someone extra for refilling my drinks or whatever (when it is their goddam job), in fact why not just leave a jug of water at my table so i can talk to my friends without being interrupted? If there is any "tipping" to be done, I'd tip the chef for making me some good food which is reasonable. Tipping on delivery is so much worse. Why should i pay extra for delivery, when I ALREADY PAY THE DELIVERY FEE TO PAY THE GUY, what else does the delivery guy do? E: I obviously realize that they get paid less, but really why should I have to give a fuck? I'm paying a shit load of money to eat out in the first place (especially Canada), its the goddam restaurants faults for giving them shit wage.
Please don't be so obviously disrespectful to servers. The fault for wages is not purely restaurants, it is also a large part in the hands of patrons. Before you call bullshit. How much are you willing to pay when you say go to a chain restaurant (as they are the most prominent in canada).
As you are here, say one of montana's, east side marios, or like boston pizza as they are all big names. How much would you be willing to pay for your entree? If you say anything lower than 20-25ish (on just your entree mind you) then don't complain about tipping.
The fact that I can go out and eat an appetizer, entree, and have 1-2 pints of beer for under 30 bucks is the reason servers are paid so low. I would be fully ok with paying $50 on a meal(appetizer, entree and 1-2 points) for just myself if tipping was removed completely. However how many other people would be willing to pay that much?
People want restaurants to go out to eat but they don't want to pay more than 20-30 bucks for an entire meal. As such the only way to make a profit in that business is low wages.
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On June 26 2012 11:12 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 11:03 Elegance wrote:On June 26 2012 10:47 sevencck wrote:On June 26 2012 10:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:For those who don't want to tip because they don't feel they should be responsible to pay a server's "wages" then be prepared to be charged more per menu item for wage increases across the board. Servers tip out hosts, bartenders, and kitchen staff usually at the end of a night, thus everyone in a restaurant would be getting a raise and near every menu item would jump a large % in price.
Tipping is so ingrained in the north american culture that unless massive wage changes happen its going to stay so rather than complaining about it, either accept that eating out requires tipping, or stop eating out. Interesting then that many resturants around the world in cultures where tipping isn't the standard can make it work just fine. And you know what? It's not tipping that's necessarily a problem, it's an overblown sense of entitlement and expectation. When waitresses come back to the kitchen to bitch and swear about some elderly couple who "only" left them 10%, I think there's something wrong. Don't eat out at a restaurant if you don't like the custom, eat fast food. I hope only to live to see the day when people en masse actually decide to listen to restaurants giving this advice, just so I can measure how quickly those restaurants change their tune. Having lived in 2 countries where tipping doesn't exist, and then coming to Canada, it is the most ridiculous thing ever. Why the heck should I pay someone extra for refilling my drinks or whatever (when it is their goddam job), in fact why not just leave a jug of water at my table so i can talk to my friends without being interrupted? If there is any "tipping" to be done, I'd tip the chef for making me some good food which is reasonable. Tipping on delivery is so much worse. Why should i pay extra for delivery, when I ALREADY PAY THE DELIVERY FEE TO PAY THE GUY, what else does the delivery guy do? E: I obviously realize that they get paid less, but really why should I have to give a fuck? I'm paying a shit load of money to eat out in the first place (especially Canada), its the goddam restaurants faults for giving them shit wage. Please don't be so obviously disrespectful to servers. The fault for wages is not purely restaurants, it is also a large part in the hands of patrons. Before you call bullshit. How much are you willing to pay when you say go to a chain restaurant (as they are the most prominent in canada). As you are here, say one of montana's, east side marios, or like boston pizza as they are all big names. How much would you be willing to pay for your entree? If you say anything lower than 20-25ish (on just your entree mind you) then don't complain about tipping. The fact that I can go out and eat an appetizer, entree, and have 1-2 pints of beer for under 30 bucks is the reason servers are paid so low. I would be fully ok with paying $50 on a meal(appetizer, entree and 1-2 points) for just myself if tipping was removed completely. However how many other people would be willing to pay that much? People want restaurants to go out to eat but they don't want to pay more than 20-30 bucks for an entire meal. As such the only way to make a profit in that business is low wages.
Your sense of inexpensive and my sense of inexpensive are not even close. $30 for a friday night dinner package for myself? Yeah right
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On June 26 2012 11:14 Elegance wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 11:12 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On June 26 2012 11:03 Elegance wrote:On June 26 2012 10:47 sevencck wrote:On June 26 2012 10:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:For those who don't want to tip because they don't feel they should be responsible to pay a server's "wages" then be prepared to be charged more per menu item for wage increases across the board. Servers tip out hosts, bartenders, and kitchen staff usually at the end of a night, thus everyone in a restaurant would be getting a raise and near every menu item would jump a large % in price.
Tipping is so ingrained in the north american culture that unless massive wage changes happen its going to stay so rather than complaining about it, either accept that eating out requires tipping, or stop eating out. Interesting then that many resturants around the world in cultures where tipping isn't the standard can make it work just fine. And you know what? It's not tipping that's necessarily a problem, it's an overblown sense of entitlement and expectation. When waitresses come back to the kitchen to bitch and swear about some elderly couple who "only" left them 10%, I think there's something wrong. Don't eat out at a restaurant if you don't like the custom, eat fast food. I hope only to live to see the day when people en masse actually decide to listen to restaurants giving this advice, just so I can measure how quickly those restaurants change their tune. Having lived in 2 countries where tipping doesn't exist, and then coming to Canada, it is the most ridiculous thing ever. Why the heck should I pay someone extra for refilling my drinks or whatever (when it is their goddam job), in fact why not just leave a jug of water at my table so i can talk to my friends without being interrupted? If there is any "tipping" to be done, I'd tip the chef for making me some good food which is reasonable. Tipping on delivery is so much worse. Why should i pay extra for delivery, when I ALREADY PAY THE DELIVERY FEE TO PAY THE GUY, what else does the delivery guy do? E: I obviously realize that they get paid less, but really why should I have to give a fuck? I'm paying a shit load of money to eat out in the first place (especially Canada), its the goddam restaurants faults for giving them shit wage. Please don't be so obviously disrespectful to servers. The fault for wages is not purely restaurants, it is also a large part in the hands of patrons. Before you call bullshit. How much are you willing to pay when you say go to a chain restaurant (as they are the most prominent in canada). As you are here, say one of montana's, east side marios, or like boston pizza as they are all big names. How much would you be willing to pay for your entree? If you say anything lower than 20-25ish (on just your entree mind you) then don't complain about tipping. The fact that I can go out and eat an appetizer, entree, and have 1-2 pints of beer for under 30 bucks is the reason servers are paid so low. I would be fully ok with paying $50 on a meal(appetizer, entree and 1-2 points) for just myself if tipping was removed completely. However how many other people would be willing to pay that much? People want restaurants to go out to eat but they don't want to pay more than 20-30 bucks for an entire meal. As such the only way to make a profit in that business is low wages. Your sense of inexpensive and my sense of inexpensive are not even close. $30 for a friday night dinner package for myself? Yeah right
Its difference of working in the industry. Knowing food costs and knowing full well what dishes actually lose money vs those that break even vs those that make money. Do I honestly think that 30 for a single dish is alot? Depends on how good it is. I expect a far higher standard of quality at a higher price point, however when I see things like ribs, steak, or other high price items like that under the 25 mark I can guarentee you the quality of that food is shit or your portion size will be barely enough to fill you off the meat and instead you get a huge side of fries.
The only option aside from raising prices is reduce the size of a portion which is near the exact same situation as raising prices in terms of customer perception.
Food isn't cheap. Having people cook it well, having it served to you to avoid the inconvience of shopping/cooking it yourself should not be a cheap process.
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On June 26 2012 11:03 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 10:47 sevencck wrote:On June 26 2012 10:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:For those who don't want to tip because they don't feel they should be responsible to pay a server's "wages" then be prepared to be charged more per menu item for wage increases across the board. Servers tip out hosts, bartenders, and kitchen staff usually at the end of a night, thus everyone in a restaurant would be getting a raise and near every menu item would jump a large % in price.
Tipping is so ingrained in the north american culture that unless massive wage changes happen its going to stay so rather than complaining about it, either accept that eating out requires tipping, or stop eating out. Interesting then that many resturants around the world in cultures where tipping isn't the standard can make it work just fine. And you know what? It's not tipping that's necessarily a problem, it's an overblown sense of entitlement and expectation. When waitresses come back to the kitchen to bitch and swear about some elderly couple who "only" left them 10%, I think there's something wrong. Don't eat out at a restaurant if you don't like the custom, eat fast food. I hope only to live to see the day when people en masse actually decide to listen to restaurants giving this advice, just so I can measure how quickly those restaurants change their tune. They wont. People want cheap food quickly (even in restaurants). Part of the major reason in north america food is cheap in non fine dining restaurants is cutting costs in wages (thus tips). This is to meet consumer demands for cheap food as people don't actually have a concept of how much ingredients cost or any of the other expenses a business like a restaurant has.
I was a sous chef at one point involved in ordering. I understand many of the costs associated with running a kitchen, in terms of food, cleaning supplies, and waste (wasn't associated with labor costs or utilities). Most menu items are marked up considerably. A good restaurant on a busy night makes money hand over fist, in fact the bar alone will make money provided a restaurant can fill the dining room. Most restaurants wouldn't all of a sudden struggle if they paid their waiters/waitresses an extra 2 dollars per hour. Besides, cooks only earn a slightly better wage than servers, and a tipping rate of 10% covers this disparity and in fact elevates a server's wage above a cook's. This argument is thus only appropriate in favor of a 10% tipping rate, and is not adequate justificaiton for the 15-20% now expected unless you feel a server deserves more money than a cook.
As for other cultures around the world where tipping isn't a standard. Those cultures are different. Cost of living is different, wages are different, etc...
Yes, we have a culture where business owners want to deregulate the market as much as humanly possible to keep wages low, yet expect consumers to abide by a tipping regulation to keep wages reasonable. Is it worth pointing out that this "cultural" viewpoint is retarded and not worth a damn? This argument doesn't hold water unless you're prepared to argue 1) North American cities have low cost of living and high wages, and 2) it is therefore reasonable to tip 15%+. If you're arguing we live in a culture with higher wages then in response I'd argue that should apply to waitresses and we shouldn't worry about potential increase in restaurant costs, since we're all making so much money. If you're arguing we live in a culture with lower wages, then it isn't reasonable to expect the public to tip 15%+ even if the cost of living is lower.
I can honestly stay from experience with most people outside of north america that the mass majority that are from oversea's are far better informed on the culinary arts. They make food at home, buy groceries, etc.... and have an appreciation for good food.
Source? And not that it sounds wrong, but how is this relevant to tipping?
I honestly believe that if more people were informed when it came to where all the ingredients came from, how much they cost, etc... North America would be far better. People just don't place it high on their list of things to know.
Far better in what way? People would tip more? Why? Every summer I'd work in a kitchen because I wanted to learn how to cook. I said I'd worked in 5 restaurants, but actually it's 6, and I can tell you 5 things that are always true in a well established successful restaurant.
1) In a successful restaurant the restaurant owner makes somewhere between very good money and an absolute killing.
2) Waitresses and waiters make obscenely good money on a busy night
3) All waitresses rage about a 10% tip, especially if they are showing cleavage
4) There is a mathematical equation relating exposed cleavage to rage over a 10% tip that noone has bothered to derive yet
5) The kitchen staff works twice as hard as the front of the house, works longer hours, and takes much less money home.
As you are here, say one of montana's, east side marios, or like boston pizza as they are all big names. How much would you be willing to pay for your entree? If you say anything lower than 20-25ish (on just your entree mind you) then don't complain about tipping.
How in the name of Plato's ghost does this even begin to make sense? So customers aren't willing to pay more than $25 for an entree, but are perfectly willing to pay $25 for the entree plus $5 for the tip? Do you realize how illogical this argument is? Have you considered it might be because of tipping that customers don't want to pay more than $25 for an entree?
The fact that I can go out and eat an appetizer, entree, and have 1-2 pints of beer for under 30 bucks is the reason servers are paid so low. I would be fully ok with paying $50 on a meal(appetizer, entree and 1-2 points) for just myself if tipping was removed completely. However how many other people would be willing to pay that much?
This violates the first law of restaurant thermodynamics. Restaurants wouldn't need to adjust items in such a way that a 30 dollar bill would become a $50 dollar bill (everything almost doubled in price) in order to pay the extra ~2-3 dollars per hour necessary to pay servers the same as cooks.
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On June 26 2012 11:47 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 11:03 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On June 26 2012 10:47 sevencck wrote:On June 26 2012 10:14 BloodyC0bbler wrote:For those who don't want to tip because they don't feel they should be responsible to pay a server's "wages" then be prepared to be charged more per menu item for wage increases across the board. Servers tip out hosts, bartenders, and kitchen staff usually at the end of a night, thus everyone in a restaurant would be getting a raise and near every menu item would jump a large % in price.
Tipping is so ingrained in the north american culture that unless massive wage changes happen its going to stay so rather than complaining about it, either accept that eating out requires tipping, or stop eating out. Interesting then that many resturants around the world in cultures where tipping isn't the standard can make it work just fine. And you know what? It's not tipping that's necessarily a problem, it's an overblown sense of entitlement and expectation. When waitresses come back to the kitchen to bitch and swear about some elderly couple who "only" left them 10%, I think there's something wrong. Don't eat out at a restaurant if you don't like the custom, eat fast food. I hope only to live to see the day when people en masse actually decide to listen to restaurants giving this advice, just so I can measure how quickly those restaurants change their tune. They wont. People want cheap food quickly (even in restaurants). Part of the major reason in north america food is cheap in non fine dining restaurants is cutting costs in wages (thus tips). This is to meet consumer demands for cheap food as people don't actually have a concept of how much ingredients cost or any of the other expenses a business like a restaurant has. I was a sous chef at one point involved in ordering. I understand many of the costs associated with running a kitchen, in terms of food, cleaning supplies, and waste (wasn't associated with labor costs or utilities). Most menu items are marked up considerably. A good restaurant on a busy night makes money hand over fist, in fact the bar alone will make money provided a restaurant can fill the dining room. Most restaurants wouldn't all of a sudden struggle if they paid their waiters/waitresses an extra 2 dollars per hour. Besides, cooks only earn a slightly better wage than servers, and a tipping rate of 10% covers this disparity and in fact elevates a server's wage above a cook's. This argument is thus only appropriate in favor of a 10% tipping rate, and is not adequate justificaiton for the 15-20% now expected unless you feel a server deserves more money than a cook. Show nested quote +As for other cultures around the world where tipping isn't a standard. Those cultures are different. Cost of living is different, wages are different, etc... Yes, we have a culture where business owners want to deregulate the market as much as humanly possible to keep wages low, yet expect consumers to abide by a tipping regulation to keep wages reasonable. Is it worth pointing out that this "cultural" viewpoint is retarded and not worth a damn? This argument doesn't hold water unless you're prepared to argue 1) North American cities have low cost of living and high wages, and 2) it is therefore reasonable to tip 15%+. If you're arguing we live in a culture with higher wages then in response I'd argue that should apply to waitresses and we shouldn't worry about potential increase in restaurant costs, since we're all making so much money. If you're arguing we live in a culture with lower wages, then it isn't reasonable to expect the public to tip 15%+ even if the cost of living is lower. Show nested quote +I can honestly stay from experience with most people outside of north america that the mass majority that are from oversea's are far better informed on the culinary arts. They make food at home, buy groceries, etc.... and have an appreciation for good food. Source? And not that it sounds wrong, but how is this relevant to tipping? Show nested quote +I honestly believe that if more people were informed when it came to where all the ingredients came from, how much they cost, etc... North America would be far better. People just don't place it high on their list of things to know. Far better in what way? People would tip more? Why? Every summer I'd work in a kitchen because I wanted to learn how to cook. I said I'd worked in 5 restaurants, but actually it's 6, and I can tell you 5 things that are always true in a well established successful restaurant. 1) In a successful restaurant the restaurant owner makes somewhere between very good money and an absolute killing. 2) Waitresses and waiters make obscenely good money on a busy night 3) All waitresses rage about a 10% tip, especially if they are showing cleavage 4) There is a mathematical equation relating exposed cleavage to rage over a 10% tip that noone has bothered to derive yet 5) The kitchen staff works twice as hard as the front of the house, works longer hours, and takes much less money home. Show nested quote +As you are here, say one of montana's, east side marios, or like boston pizza as they are all big names. How much would you be willing to pay for your entree? If you say anything lower than 20-25ish (on just your entree mind you) then don't complain about tipping. How in the name of Plato's ghost does this even begin to make sense? So customers aren't willing to pay more than $25 for an entree, but are perfectly willing to pay $25 for the entree plus $5 for the tip? Do you realize how illogical this argument is? Have you considered it might be because of tipping that customers don't want to pay more than $25 for an entree? Show nested quote +The fact that I can go out and eat an appetizer, entree, and have 1-2 pints of beer for under 30 bucks is the reason servers are paid so low. I would be fully ok with paying $50 on a meal(appetizer, entree and 1-2 points) for just myself if tipping was removed completely. However how many other people would be willing to pay that much? This violates the first law of restaurant thermodynamics. Restaurants wouldn't need to adjust items in such a way that a 30 dollar bill would become a $50 dollar bill (everything almost doubled in price) in order to pay the extra ~2-3 dollars per hour necessary to pay servers the same as cooks.
As someone who has also done ordering and knows the costing of restaurants you have nailed the mark to a degree. A non chain restaurant is what you have described. Some chains branches do fit the bill but here (Canada) the number of individual non chain restaurants is insanely low unless you are in a major city hub. As for marked up considerably? What items are you referring to? Near every restaurant I have worked at loses money on its biggest expense items, and makes money on the insanely cheap ones. Wage disparity depends on region you are in. I know that when I worked out on the west coast of canada I was averaging 7-8 dollars an hour more than the servers were getting in base wage. With my tipout which was roughly another $1 an hour I was pulling in wage wise near identical what they were overall. If things were slow though I would always be a decent chunk ahead.
Where I am now cooks are still making 5ish dollars more an hour.
As for going business' trying to deregulate the market for lower wages. People don't want to pay a ton of money for their meal thus you can't have a high wage job. It is not just business owners as an issue. If your general populace wont pay more, or pay the same amount for less then wages cannot change and still allow a business to be profitable.
Your always true statements are also not valid. I am currently working in a restaurant with a strick uniform code. Any form of cleavage is actually not allowed. When I served at a hotel it was the same thing, strict dress code so things like that weren't allowed. Perhaps this is a difference between Canada and the US?
The amount a waiter/waitress makes in a night depends on their clientel. I have seen people make 20 dollars in tips on retarded busy nights through no fault of their own but by having a ton of people who just don't tip. Kitchen staff do tend to bring home less overall then really good servers though and yes, kitchen staff does typically work twice as hard.
The restaurants I named all have most entree prices priced at around 15 dollars. I was making the statement that unless you start paying for higher end items don't complain about tipping. The prices are low enough that a tip is easily affordable. Most places allow you if all you get is a drink + entree to eat for under 20 and still have change for a tip. The exceptions being if you are ordering the "premium" items on a menu where you will have them ticketed at like 18 or 19 dollars.
The reason I mentioned them is only higher end restaurants charge 25+ on menu items typically unless its some weird deal that is being sold that is a combo of items or an all you can eat charge. As such, when you can pay for near every meal with a 20 and that includes tip, why complain about the custom?
As for breaking restaurant law? I in wages make 5ish more than a server. I then get a tipout which isn't taxed and is just take home cash. If you removed all tips and raised wages you are uping server wages between 5-6 dollars a head. You are then having to up the wages of cooks slightly, hosts slightly, dishwashers slightly as they all get tipouts as well. Factor in large restaurants can have up to 50+ employees that leads to a huge increase in labour costs. Is the near doubling in price of menu items an exageration? Perhaps but the cost per menu item would drastically increase overall.
As someone who works in the industry I understand that servers survive on tips. Canada has server wages that depending on your province depends on how under minimum wage you are. Each province has different minimum wage numbers. Do you honestly think someone would willingly work for minimum wage, or 2 dollars above it to put up with crying children, drunken assholes, selfentitled debags, loud obnoxious people, over friendly perverts, etc.....
People in restaurants put up with a ton of stress and the reward for dealing with that, keeping a smile on, and tend to their tables needs (provided they do a good job) is compensation in the form of tips. I understand why some people would not want to pay tips, I understand the points. However based on how society currently is, tipping is customary. If you don't like the custom don't eat at places that tips are going to be part of the meal. It is pretty straight forward.
As to my source for non north americans knowing more about food. It is personal experience. Near every foreign person I have interacted with knows how to cook in some way or another, and is fairly consistent with eating balanced healthy meals. Is this a 100% rule? No, but overall my personal experience is they eat far better.
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^^The cleavage thing was actually a bit of a joke (I'm a bit jaded), I actually worked in a hotel restaurant where there was a pretty stiff dress code as well. I don't really disagree with you all that much tbh, but I dislike the culture of entitlement, and I am generally put off by waitresses. I think there are a few things you've said that bear some refinement.
#1: Most jobs are stressful in one way or another, it isn't just what servers do, yet they get tips. Taxi drivers now feel entitled to tips as well, is their job particularly stressful?? Tipping is a culture gone wrong more than any type of reasonable remuneration. I'm sure there are many jobs that are more stressful than being a server (particularly if you're working in a nice place, the management is less inclined to put up with McDonald's level abuse)
#2: I have never worked in a restaurant that had more than 20 servers including bar staff, so 50 is a gross exaggeration. Also if you cut tips, then you don't really need to compensate the kitchen staff for the tip outs they are losing. The tip outs for kitchen staff are negligible, it's more about the principle of it than the money itself. Nevertheless, let's assume your figure of 5-6 dollars per head is accurate. I'm not sure it is but we'll assume it is. You said in an earlier post that one of the reasons a server's job is difficult is because they have to tend to multiple tables at once. Very well, we'll assume 4 per hour, with an average party size of 4 (this isn't unreasonable). Since every other cost associated with the entire business has already been paid, we are only discussing the 5-6 dollars per hour increase in wage. At 16 orders per hour, it would be extremely easy to make that extra 5-6 dollars with only negligible increase in cost per plate. I realize that restaurants aren't always busy, but restaurants also keep a very small front of the house staff during non-peak hours, so the 4 tables per hour rate shouldn't change. At a 15% tipping rate, the customer is paying more for their food/dining experience than they would be in the absence of tipping. Put another way, the increase in menu prices associated with a 5-6 dollar per hour increase in server wages would be less of a burden on the consumer than a 15%+ tipping rate. I literally worked at restaurants that would do such a killing in the summer months that they'd often have an open bar for employees at the end of the night. Does this sound like a razor thin profit margin?
#3: I never made that much more than a server in wages. If a restaurant is really struggling to meet labor costs, what makes you think they'd pay their kitchen all that much more?
#4: You're right that the money people make depends on the clientele, but no one seems to care about that fact, they seem insistent on making 15% the bare minimum now, regardless of clientele.
I've worked in enough restaurants to know that the whole thing is a scam. Restaurants don't count on tipping to keep menu prices low, that's one of the biggest lies in the business. Tipping came first, and owners decided they could get away with paying servers less out of their own pocket since the public already pays them so much. Waiters and waitresses can expect to make outrageous money on a per hour basis at a busy restaurant. In fact more often than not their defense of this is that they don't work as many hours as cooks, so the per hour rate doesn't equate to a bloated monthly earning. In reality, this is irrelevant. If you work fewer hours and still make better money than the kitchen staff then the whole thing is a joke.
When I go to a restaurant I tip 15%, whether the service was good or bad, and that's almost ridiculous. The whole thing is a massive runaway gravy train. You can argue that servers live on tips, and I certainly won't disagree with that, but that isn't really a very compelling argument in favor of tipping, it's a more compelling argument in favor of increasing server wages or minimum wages, or ensuring servers can't be paid less than minimum wage. Labor is a significant cost in the restaurant business but it isn't the crippling factor you're describing it as in a successful restaurant. I'd love to see servers get more per hour, but I think everyone should probably get paid a bit better than they do. Get rid of the tipping gravy train though, servers simply do not deserve as much money as they get paid relative to some of the other jobs that are out there, particularly if it's a subsidy on the part of the consumer.
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Employers should pay their employees sufficiently. I tip 90% of the time (when I get good service) because I have to be fair for those people. But the social norm for tipping should be replaced.
Give those people a half-decent salary so they don't have to carry mountains of f'ing change around in their car.
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EPT
