On May 21 2012 04:24 ZeromuS wrote: Best games? Thats hard to decide for a couple of reasons.
Currently, protoss won a lot last night and all because their opponents made bad mistakes and just seem to not understand the game that well. Protoss in SC2 is a funny race. The army is very good in most direct engagements and if controlled properly seems impossible to defeat. However, they have quite possibly the slowest macro of the three races and have gaping holes in their defenses throughout most of the game until they hit particular key tech timings.
For example, protoss is very very weak to drops against terran until there are high templar and storms out. The reason being that it is really hard to split protoss armies properly. Against terran there is a 2 medivac timing and a 4 medivac timing. The two medivac timing is very strong against a protoss who gets greedy and doesn't have good stalker positioning to push away drops. A 4 medivac timing is really strong because without storm the terran has so so many options from 2 base.
He can contain and take a 3rd, he can 4 medivac drop if there is no vision of the drop and they can 2 medivac drop at the main, 1 medivac drop the natural AND can push whatever units he has at the ramp if any into the natural as a pressure.
This kind of thing happens from time to time but the best example would be MVP vs Parting on metropolis. He gets 4 medivacs, and drops the main and parting has nothing to defend the drop. Once protoss is out of position and is being greedy AND 4 medivacs full of units drop the protoss just dies.
This is the thing about sc2. We went through this odd one base phase, then it went to learning to expand and now its moving into a time where timings are super super good because people are learning how to be very greedy. AND NOW people are learning how to read how greedy each person is being and soon i think within the year if it wasn't for HotS the balance between greed, and safety will be discovered. Then will come discovering how to make reads of greed vs safe.
But right now, its certain timings are really really good. Protoss is destroying PvT right now because protoss is being crazy greedy and so is terran but protoss greed is better than terran greed. Some terrans aren't being greedy enough and they also aren't punishing the protoss greed. So right now lategame TvP, the ball is in Terrans court. Parting is the epitomy of protoss greed and he destroys almost all TvP. Except for MVP. MVP wrecked him because he has some solid timings to kill the extreme greed of the protoss player.
Basically, right now in sc2 there are 2 extremes in the metagame. Greedy as FUCK macro into too big an advantage that can be overcome, or clean as hell timing to destroy the extreme greed. The middle ground of safe greedy, and greedy but with tight tight defense timings and execution is rarely seen.
Parting MKP game one in GSTL finals at IPL4 was the closest we've seen. MKP goes for a 2 medivac push and JUST in time Parting gets 2 templar for feedback on the medivacs, making any stim be permanent damage for MKP. The follow up 4 medivac push was making MKP hesitant to push until he got 6 medivacs (4 with good energy, 2 with low energy). When MKP tries to pressure here while taking his 3rd base (i might be remembering the expo timings a little wrong) were timed out alongside storm perfectly and the late ghosts meant that parting could hold off that attack, expand and it moved into a long macro game with a lot of trades along the way until blizzard ruined the game.
And I didn't post vods because i sent you a PM that is 100 times better than having a vod posted here.
Pretty misguided post. I can't believe most foreign protoss still don't understand how PvT works. No it's not "really hard" to split your army properly. No there are not gaping holes in their defenses at any time it's just based on how well they can FF which is indeed difficult if they are playing greedy since a missed FF can mean gg but if they forcefield correctly there's really nothing terran can do you can't "outmicro" a ff, or fast stalkers/feedback with slow medivacs. It's pretty much a dice roll to stim in at the front and hope the protoss screws up their ff because if they ff properly you take huge damage without inflicting any and then protoss gets a fast third for a pretty much guaranteed win.
In every game where Protoss wins they position their stalkers+1 ht on other drop path in their main base and use obs on drop paths to know where it's coming from and deny the drop with stalker/feedback and warp ins. You can also tell how big of a drop terran is going for based on how small his army at your front is.
Meanwhile they use either collosus + forcefield or fast storm + forcefield to defend their front. Every protoss unless they are going mass collosus which isn't very good will have storm by the time 4 medivacs are out, also losing even one medivac to stalkers is a huge loss for terran at this point and often means protoss can take an earlier third. Depending on map protoss takes their third once they have charge and storm done and usually 1-1 or better upgrades. The next way you see terrans win in GSL is protoss moves out onto the map for no real reason and gets caught out of position by either drops or a giant concave of bio, there is no real reason for them to move out though and it's mind boggling how it still happens in code s level play.(Parting vs MVP entombed)
The games where the protoss sits on 3 base till 3-3 or better then gets a fourth and continues to turtle while denying terran aggression with storms are literally 100% win rate(MVP genius GSL season 1,Parting GSL season 2) because in general almost any code s protoss that has made it to the 20 minute mark pretty much has the game won because of how strong 3-3 ,mass warp ins,storm, and Collosi into mass HT tech switches are.
Don't know if anyone noticed but "lizzy" the protoss player that looked very strong already showed he understood this, during the drop timing he immediately moved his 6-7 stalkers into main and without even actually seeing the drop (it was out of pylon vision) knew what was going on and denied it. The only protoss who lost (FBH) didn't keep any stalkers in his main and took big damage because of it, and let his obs get sniped instead of keeping it on drop path and went mass collosus with late / no storm. (yet protoss players acted like this was the only game where terran was playing correctly, the irony)
This is just in the current meta of tvp bio though(1 rax fe into 3 rax or quick 3rd cc), not saying its imba I think there are a lot of other timings terran can do that work a lot better(either more raven timings or cc first into 6 rax 1 rax fe into 5 rax on maps with wide chokes). but this is pretty much how every tvp bio game goes and it's extremely boring because it's easy to tell who will win based on the above factors. Go ahead and try and link one video where the win doesn't go the way I say, or a loss that doesn't go the way I say either. (the exceptions of course being cheese and 1-1-1)
I will say it's a pretty bad MU though since no matter what it's going to rely on pretty much 2-3(max) big timings that determine the game based on if terran can do damage or not(which is based on protoss making a mistake) but this is pretty much the nature of protoss in all their MUs. A couple big timings where they have to ff well and a lot of turtling. With the exception of PvP which is considered the most coin flippy mu.
TBH though after the queen change TvZ is also starting to become pretty similar because zerg can play so greedy while denying most aggression and being able to see all ins coming thanks to new overlord. Which forces terran to play equally greedy, but it's harder to tell if zerg will suddenly all in you since they can make units instead of drones at any point and they can deny hellion scouting with queens and insane creep spread so all you can really do is hope for a lucky scan.
It's part of the reason I've been losing interest in sc2 now that what was the best MU because it was back and forth the whole game with a lot of different viable early game builds has also become either very passive or coin flippy. (expect to see 1 rax fe in almost every tvz now)
For everyone that is wondering why Protoss was winning so much yesterday, the actual reason is these bw pros don't lose to stupid 2-4 "medivac timings" like some SC2 protosses do. They position templar in their base in proper locations to feedback drops, and they sit on 2 base chrono boosting upgrades and then playing the standard mass zealot upgrade into lategame style.
They're playing P how other P's should have been playing P ages ago, vs T especially. Then they simply are in "lategame" and we know how that usually goes.
It's also probably a combination with the Terran bw->sc2 players being completely underdeveloped in their TvP as well. But tbh, the P BW->sc2 players looked pretty damn good, and abusing protoss like they should be.
On May 21 2012 00:33 alffla wrote: what fucking assholes gave my blog a 1 star rating. sheesh. thanks to the people that suggested games. going to watch them soon and see what they're like. so far, i've watched the DRG vs MKP winter arena games and wasn't very entertained either.
Half the excitement is the drama behind the player stories and backgrounds. You can't just look at the best SC2 games and expect to jump at the ceiling. Same thing for BW.
The other half is sensing that a player is playing good. You can't do that unless you're a good player or have watched a LOT of SC2 and know how to analyze the game. You only have a superificial understanding if you look at stuff blowing up and say "that was bad".
For example in the Battlecruiser game (MVP vs Squirtle game 5) there was immense tension because TvP there is usually a time bomb for Terran where he is almost guaranteed to lose past 25 minutes. To see MVP defensively split the map like that was excruciating. It looked like he was about to win in the end with Squirtle's army stranded but the Archon toilet swung the momentum back wildly and unexpectedly. It was very dramatic and unusual, if you've been a sc2 regular.
But take any Code S player and he would have went 12-0 last night. Maybe Lizzy could have taken a game though. I felt he was the best last night.
On May 20 2012 22:49 14fighter wrote: Go watch DRG vs MKP in winter championships or winter arena MKP vs DRG G5 MKP vs DRG G6 MKP vs DRG G7 G7 is probably the best because Bio is just so difficult to pull off against zerg in TvZ and MKP does it.
while the games didn't do it for me, thanks so much for actually posting links to the games (and thanks to others that posted actual VOD links). So many times when asked for SC2 game recommendations, SC2 fans list games but don't give a link to the VOD or even say which tournament it's from. also lol I forgot how annoying tasteless/artosis are :\
also I am really starting to doubt that I just need to watch more SC2 to be able to decipher what is going on in battles as well as I can in BW. battles in SC2 are almost always a clusterfuck visually, especially when there are air units or spells. fucking psi-storm covers up EVERYTHING underneath it and you can barely tell what's underneath it unless the spectator has the units selected so you can see the health bars. also do mutas even make a sound when they attack? fuck. I played a lot of SC2 during beta and I can't even remember what the sound is.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
On May 20 2012 23:22 Angel_ wrote: my question (genuine ignorance coming). Are any of those hype videos from the first two years of broodwar play? - Because of maps, because of constant patching, because of people learning (though some like to claim that the learning curve is much faster for people because they're switching from broodwar/more internet communication/more vods and things/etc...), because people tend to get stuck doing the same thing until they're forced to change (but don't really have to because blizzard pats them on the butt and fixes it for them), because it's still only 2 years old, sc2 is still developing a lot. I don't know if there's anything that's going to genuinely excite a person coming from the peak of development of a game they loved.
Most of these videos are 4-5 years in, but the "macro mentality" that SC2 currently has was only 1-2 years in the making here. BW by this time was patch-stable (no more changes to unit/building stats), players were discovering how powerful a macro-oriented playstyle was, and how applying micro-based positioning and tactics to larger armies yielded better results.
To give a comparison in skill level, a B level iCCup player today would probably be competitive with many pro players from the iloveoov era of 2004-2005.
This is wrong. BW's final (and greatest) balance patch game 2 years, 5 months after the release of BW and 3 years, 1 month after SC proper. For comparison it has been just under 1 year, 10 months since SC2's release.
4-5 years in from 2000 (date of the first OSL; though the Toonami pre-OSL tournament was in 1999) is 2004-2005; for comparison the 1.08 patch was in May 2001, so it has been at least a couple of years since the last patch changed the game mechanics. I could be wrong and need to add another year in terms of game experience (some of these highlights could be from 2006), but the fact that most of the video highlights were from a time where there were no balance changes to BW for quite some time and forthcoming is factually correct.
On May 21 2012 04:24 ZeromuS wrote: Best games? Thats hard to decide for a couple of reasons.
Currently, protoss won a lot last night and all because their opponents made bad mistakes and just seem to not understand the game that well. Protoss in SC2 is a funny race. The army is very good in most direct engagements and if controlled properly seems impossible to defeat. However, they have quite possibly the slowest macro of the three races and have gaping holes in their defenses throughout most of the game until they hit particular key tech timings.
For example, protoss is very very weak to drops against terran until there are high templar and storms out. The reason being that it is really hard to split protoss armies properly. Against terran there is a 2 medivac timing and a 4 medivac timing. The two medivac timing is very strong against a protoss who gets greedy and doesn't have good stalker positioning to push away drops. A 4 medivac timing is really strong because without storm the terran has so so many options from 2 base.
He can contain and take a 3rd, he can 4 medivac drop if there is no vision of the drop and they can 2 medivac drop at the main, 1 medivac drop the natural AND can push whatever units he has at the ramp if any into the natural as a pressure.
This kind of thing happens from time to time but the best example would be MVP vs Parting on metropolis. He gets 4 medivacs, and drops the main and parting has nothing to defend the drop. Once protoss is out of position and is being greedy AND 4 medivacs full of units drop the protoss just dies.
This is the thing about sc2. We went through this odd one base phase, then it went to learning to expand and now its moving into a time where timings are super super good because people are learning how to be very greedy. AND NOW people are learning how to read how greedy each person is being and soon i think within the year if it wasn't for HotS the balance between greed, and safety will be discovered. Then will come discovering how to make reads of greed vs safe.
But right now, its certain timings are really really good. Protoss is destroying PvT right now because protoss is being crazy greedy and so is terran but protoss greed is better than terran greed. Some terrans aren't being greedy enough and they also aren't punishing the protoss greed. So right now lategame TvP, the ball is in Terrans court. Parting is the epitomy of protoss greed and he destroys almost all TvP. Except for MVP. MVP wrecked him because he has some solid timings to kill the extreme greed of the protoss player.
Basically, right now in sc2 there are 2 extremes in the metagame. Greedy as FUCK macro into too big an advantage that can be overcome, or clean as hell timing to destroy the extreme greed. The middle ground of safe greedy, and greedy but with tight tight defense timings and execution is rarely seen.
Parting MKP game one in GSTL finals at IPL4 was the closest we've seen. MKP goes for a 2 medivac push and JUST in time Parting gets 2 templar for feedback on the medivacs, making any stim be permanent damage for MKP. The follow up 4 medivac push was making MKP hesitant to push until he got 6 medivacs (4 with good energy, 2 with low energy). When MKP tries to pressure here while taking his 3rd base (i might be remembering the expo timings a little wrong) were timed out alongside storm perfectly and the late ghosts meant that parting could hold off that attack, expand and it moved into a long macro game with a lot of trades along the way until blizzard ruined the game.
And I didn't post vods because i sent you a PM that is 100 times better than having a vod posted here.
Pretty misguided post. I can't believe most foreign protoss still don't understand how PvT works. No it's not "really hard" to split your army properly. No there are not gaping holes in their defenses at any time it's just based on how well they can FF which is indeed difficult if they are playing greedy since a missed FF can mean gg but if they forcefield correctly there's really nothing terran can do you can't "outmicro" a ff, or fast stalkers/feedback with slow medivacs. It's pretty much a dice roll to stim in at the front and hope the protoss screws up their ff because if they ff properly you take huge damage without inflicting any and then protoss gets a fast third for a pretty much guaranteed win.
In every game where Protoss wins they position their stalkers+1 ht on other drop path in their main base and use obs on drop paths to know where it's coming from and deny the drop with stalker/feedback and warp ins. You can also tell how big of a drop terran is going for based on how small his army at your front is.
Meanwhile they use either collosus + forcefield or fast storm + forcefield to defend their front. Every protoss unless they are going mass collosus which isn't very good will have storm by the time 4 medivacs are out, also losing even one medivac to stalkers is a huge loss for terran at this point and often means protoss can take an earlier third. Depending on map protoss takes their third once they have charge and storm done and usually 1-1 or better upgrades. The next way you see terrans win in GSL is protoss moves out onto the map for no real reason and gets caught out of position by either drops or a giant concave of bio, there is no real reason for them to move out though and it's mind boggling how it still happens in code s level play.(Parting vs MVP entombed)
The games where the protoss sits on 3 base till 3-3 or better then gets a fourth and continues to turtle while denying terran aggression with storms are literally 100% win rate(MVP genius GSL season 1,Parting GSL season 2) because in general almost any code s protoss that has made it to the 20 minute mark pretty much has the game won because of how strong 3-3 ,mass warp ins,storm, and Collosi into mass HT tech switches are.
Don't know if anyone noticed but "lizzy" the protoss player that looked very strong already showed he understood this, during the drop timing he immediately moved his 6-7 stalkers into main and without even actually seeing the drop (it was out of pylon vision) knew what was going on and denied it. The only protoss who lost (FBH) didn't keep any stalkers in his main and took big damage because of it, and let his obs get sniped instead of keeping it on drop path and went mass collosus with late / no storm. (yet protoss players acted like this was the only game where terran was playing correctly, the irony)
This is just in the current meta of tvp bio though(1 rax fe into 3 rax or quick 3rd cc), not saying its imba I think there are a lot of other timings terran can do that work a lot better(either more raven timings or cc first into 6 rax 1 rax fe into 5 rax on maps with wide chokes). but this is pretty much how every tvp bio game goes and it's extremely boring because it's easy to tell who will win based on the above factors. Go ahead and try and link one video where the win doesn't go the way I say, or a loss that doesn't go the way I say either. (the exceptions of course being cheese and 1-1-1)
I will say it's a pretty bad MU though since no matter what it's going to rely on pretty much 2-3(max) big timings that determine the game based on if terran can do damage or not(which is based on protoss making a mistake) but this is pretty much the nature of protoss in all their MUs. A couple big timings where they have to ff well and a lot of turtling. With the exception of PvP which is considered the most coin flippy mu.
TBH though after the queen change TvZ is also starting to become pretty similar because zerg can play so greedy while denying most aggression and being able to see all ins coming thanks to new overlord. Which forces terran to play equally greedy, but it's harder to tell if zerg will suddenly all in you since they can make units instead of drones at any point and they can deny hellion scouting with queens and insane creep spread so all you can really do is hope for a lucky scan.
It's part of the reason I've been losing interest in sc2 now that what was the best MU because it was back and forth the whole game with a lot of different viable early game builds has also become either very passive or coin flippy. (expect to see 1 rax fe in almost every tvz now)
Right, you realise you are essentially agreeing with me right? If protoss can defend well and isnt being crazy crazy greedy he has an advantage in PvT atm. The job of terran is to learn how to break toss. The game isn't figured out yet. If you dont defend the drop you lose (FBH game) if you defend the drop and can sit defensively for so long you get a huge advantage.
And it can be hard to split the army right. If you go for greedy tech play and the terran can find an opening you lose. To defend both sides without denying a medivac entirely is difficult. I don't want to make it seem like its easy to attack and drop a toss, its not. But you also shouldn't make it seem like terran has no aggressive options.
My point is the following: the extreme of greed that pays off exponentially and the extreme of aggression which breaks greed easily. Get a little too greedy vs 1-1-1 as protoss in sc2 PvT? Dead protoss. Don't do damage as terran to protoss and let them get upgrades on 3 base and 3 forms of AoE? Dead Terran.
There is no middle ground because the middle ground hasn't been completely figured out yet. With time and perhaps with more viable mech options like the warhound in HoTS will help too.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
Wow, you say Warcraft and then you throw a Dota2 video at me? Rofl, are you trolling? The least you could've done was find a Dota video.
News flash: Warcraft != Dota. Just because Dota is a War3 custom doesn't mean they are the same (they're not, just in case you're wondering) or that the abilities in the games are the same. Most, if not all, of the abilities in Dota are heavily modified spells from War3. There is no spell in actual Warcraft TFT that is comparable to Vortex in SC2 in effect and scale; if anything, the closest thing to Vortex in any Blizzard game is the arbiter's stasis field, but I don't hear you making snide comments about that ability on these boards.
That's without even talking about the "Archon toilet" itself which is comparable to absolutely nothing in War3.
No, really, please do your research next time. -.-
First of all, thanks for making this thread, and thanks to everyone who posted sc2 VODs.
I suppose maybe I can elaborate on something that I found beautiful in BW that I've found rather lacking in the sc2 I've watched. It ties into what people say about "deathball syndrome" (which I think is an exaggerated characterization at times). There's a lot of shiny explosions in an Sc2 battle, to be sure, but I rarely get a sense that units and spells can meaningfully control a part of the battlefield, and reverse bad odds purely on that.
This is pretty vague, I'll admit. Perhaps the BW vod that someone linked can help explain this better:
On May 21 2012 04:31 bITt.mAN wrote:
The part from 18:51 - 20:41 is one of the classic highlights of Brood War. Boring analysis follows. TL;DR is provided.
At the beginning, 2 tanks, 6 vesses, ~35 marine/medic are poised to strike at the Zerg's 3rd. This is a pivotal moment -- the 3rd gas is essentially what allows Z to produce the tech capable of fending off the deadly combination of bio / tank / science vessel.
The lurkers defending the ramp are killed via irradiate, leaving Z's remaining defense at the 3rd at one sunken colony (almost trivial), and a nydus canal capable of transporting reinforcements. The T army floods in, and razes the nydus canal, but not before 16 lings + a defiler emerge. Still, T's army is vastly superior (in fact, without the dark swarm, the entire Z force would probably be exterminated without any losses), and Z reinforcements by ground are a long time away.
So about that dark swarm (for those that don't watch BW, the brown cloudy things) -- it presents a small area where the Z forces are invulnerable to the T army, temporarily. The first 2 Z swarms prevent the T forces from making a beeline towards the 3rd hatchery and the vulnerable drone line, which would be razed / killed in seconds.
A lurker is nicely protected by the 3rd swarm, which forces the T army even more southwards. At this point, the defiler is about to die from irradiation, so it casts 2 more swarms, which have the effect of funneling the T army east.
All of this is buying Z time for more reinforcements to show up. (19:33)
But the Z force is rapidly dwindling as well, and its pretty much up to 4 supply worth of Z units to defend against ~20 ground supply of T, so T decides to run through the swarms, taking pretty grievous casualties in the process. But a single swarm and a defiant lurker thwart the T army from simply massacring all the drones at the 3rd.
T's time has now ran out (19:55). Trapped against a mineral line and a wall of swarms, the remaining third of the T ground army is plagued, and annihilated in short order.
Soon after, the vessels fall too, though one survives to tell a terrible tale.
TL;DR
50~ terran supply enters a Zerg third
the initial Zerg defense force is 20~ supply
the difference? superior positioning by Z. also a transcendent moment of brilliance
On May 21 2012 04:24 ZeromuS wrote: Best games? Thats hard to decide for a couple of reasons.
Currently, protoss won a lot last night and all because their opponents made bad mistakes and just seem to not understand the game that well. Protoss in SC2 is a funny race. The army is very good in most direct engagements and if controlled properly seems impossible to defeat. However, they have quite possibly the slowest macro of the three races and have gaping holes in their defenses throughout most of the game until they hit particular key tech timings.
For example, protoss is very very weak to drops against terran until there are high templar and storms out. The reason being that it is really hard to split protoss armies properly. Against terran there is a 2 medivac timing and a 4 medivac timing. The two medivac timing is very strong against a protoss who gets greedy and doesn't have good stalker positioning to push away drops. A 4 medivac timing is really strong because without storm the terran has so so many options from 2 base.
He can contain and take a 3rd, he can 4 medivac drop if there is no vision of the drop and they can 2 medivac drop at the main, 1 medivac drop the natural AND can push whatever units he has at the ramp if any into the natural as a pressure.
This kind of thing happens from time to time but the best example would be MVP vs Parting on metropolis. He gets 4 medivacs, and drops the main and parting has nothing to defend the drop. Once protoss is out of position and is being greedy AND 4 medivacs full of units drop the protoss just dies.
This is the thing about sc2. We went through this odd one base phase, then it went to learning to expand and now its moving into a time where timings are super super good because people are learning how to be very greedy. AND NOW people are learning how to read how greedy each person is being and soon i think within the year if it wasn't for HotS the balance between greed, and safety will be discovered. Then will come discovering how to make reads of greed vs safe.
But right now, its certain timings are really really good. Protoss is destroying PvT right now because protoss is being crazy greedy and so is terran but protoss greed is better than terran greed. Some terrans aren't being greedy enough and they also aren't punishing the protoss greed. So right now lategame TvP, the ball is in Terrans court. Parting is the epitomy of protoss greed and he destroys almost all TvP. Except for MVP. MVP wrecked him because he has some solid timings to kill the extreme greed of the protoss player.
Basically, right now in sc2 there are 2 extremes in the metagame. Greedy as FUCK macro into too big an advantage that can be overcome, or clean as hell timing to destroy the extreme greed. The middle ground of safe greedy, and greedy but with tight tight defense timings and execution is rarely seen.
Parting MKP game one in GSTL finals at IPL4 was the closest we've seen. MKP goes for a 2 medivac push and JUST in time Parting gets 2 templar for feedback on the medivacs, making any stim be permanent damage for MKP. The follow up 4 medivac push was making MKP hesitant to push until he got 6 medivacs (4 with good energy, 2 with low energy). When MKP tries to pressure here while taking his 3rd base (i might be remembering the expo timings a little wrong) were timed out alongside storm perfectly and the late ghosts meant that parting could hold off that attack, expand and it moved into a long macro game with a lot of trades along the way until blizzard ruined the game.
And I didn't post vods because i sent you a PM that is 100 times better than having a vod posted here.
Pretty misguided post. I can't believe most foreign protoss still don't understand how PvT works. No it's not "really hard" to split your army properly. No there are not gaping holes in their defenses at any time it's just based on how well they can FF which is indeed difficult if they are playing greedy since a missed FF can mean gg but if they forcefield correctly there's really nothing terran can do you can't "outmicro" a ff, or fast stalkers/feedback with slow medivacs. It's pretty much a dice roll to stim in at the front and hope the protoss screws up their ff because if they ff properly you take huge damage without inflicting any and then protoss gets a fast third for a pretty much guaranteed win.
In every game where Protoss wins they position their stalkers+1 ht on other drop path in their main base and use obs on drop paths to know where it's coming from and deny the drop with stalker/feedback and warp ins. You can also tell how big of a drop terran is going for based on how small his army at your front is.
Meanwhile they use either collosus + forcefield or fast storm + forcefield to defend their front. Every protoss unless they are going mass collosus which isn't very good will have storm by the time 4 medivacs are out, also losing even one medivac to stalkers is a huge loss for terran at this point and often means protoss can take an earlier third. Depending on map protoss takes their third once they have charge and storm done and usually 1-1 or better upgrades. The next way you see terrans win in GSL is protoss moves out onto the map for no real reason and gets caught out of position by either drops or a giant concave of bio, there is no real reason for them to move out though and it's mind boggling how it still happens in code s level play.(Parting vs MVP entombed)
The games where the protoss sits on 3 base till 3-3 or better then gets a fourth and continues to turtle while denying terran aggression with storms are literally 100% win rate(MVP genius GSL season 1,Parting GSL season 2) because in general almost any code s protoss that has made it to the 20 minute mark pretty much has the game won because of how strong 3-3 ,mass warp ins,storm, and Collosi into mass HT tech switches are.
Don't know if anyone noticed but "lizzy" the protoss player that looked very strong already showed he understood this, during the drop timing he immediately moved his 6-7 stalkers into main and without even actually seeing the drop (it was out of pylon vision) knew what was going on and denied it. The only protoss who lost (FBH) didn't keep any stalkers in his main and took big damage because of it, and let his obs get sniped instead of keeping it on drop path and went mass collosus with late / no storm. (yet protoss players acted like this was the only game where terran was playing correctly, the irony)
This is just in the current meta of tvp bio though(1 rax fe into 3 rax or quick 3rd cc), not saying its imba I think there are a lot of other timings terran can do that work a lot better(either more raven timings or cc first into 6 rax 1 rax fe into 5 rax on maps with wide chokes). but this is pretty much how every tvp bio game goes and it's extremely boring because it's easy to tell who will win based on the above factors. Go ahead and try and link one video where the win doesn't go the way I say, or a loss that doesn't go the way I say either. (the exceptions of course being cheese and 1-1-1)
I will say it's a pretty bad MU though since no matter what it's going to rely on pretty much 2-3(max) big timings that determine the game based on if terran can do damage or not(which is based on protoss making a mistake) but this is pretty much the nature of protoss in all their MUs. A couple big timings where they have to ff well and a lot of turtling. With the exception of PvP which is considered the most coin flippy mu.
TBH though after the queen change TvZ is also starting to become pretty similar because zerg can play so greedy while denying most aggression and being able to see all ins coming thanks to new overlord. Which forces terran to play equally greedy, but it's harder to tell if zerg will suddenly all in you since they can make units instead of drones at any point and they can deny hellion scouting with queens and insane creep spread so all you can really do is hope for a lucky scan.
It's part of the reason I've been losing interest in sc2 now that what was the best MU because it was back and forth the whole game with a lot of different viable early game builds has also become either very passive or coin flippy. (expect to see 1 rax fe in almost every tvz now)
Right, you realise you are essentially agreeing with me right? If protoss can defend well and isnt being crazy crazy greedy he has an advantage in PvT atm. The job of terran is to learn how to break toss. The game isn't figured out yet. If you dont defend the drop you lose (FBH game) if you defend the drop and can sit defensively for so long you get a huge advantage.
And it can be hard to split the army right. If you go for greedy tech play and the terran can find an opening you lose. To defend both sides without denying a medivac entirely is difficult. I don't want to make it seem like its easy to attack and drop a toss, its not. But you also shouldn't make it seem like terran has no aggressive options.
My point is the following: the extreme of greed that pays off exponentially and the extreme of aggression which breaks greed easily. Get a little too greedy vs 1-1-1 as protoss in sc2 PvT? Dead protoss. Don't do damage as terran to protoss and let them get upgrades on 3 base and 3 forms of AoE? Dead Terran.
There is no middle ground because the middle ground hasn't been completely figured out yet. With time and perhaps with more viable mech options like the warhound in HoTS will help too.
Meh I wasn't agreeing with you(see first paragraph) but don't want to derail more.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
Wow, you say Warcraft and then you throw a Dota2 video at me? Rofl, are you trolling? The least you could've done was find a Dota video.
News flash: Warcraft != Dota. Just because Dota is a War3 custom doesn't mean they are the same (they're not, just in case you're wondering) or that the abilities in the games are the same. Most, if not all, of the abilities in Dota are heavily modified spells from War3. There is no spell in actual Warcraft TFT that is comparable to Vortex in SC2 in effect and scale; if anything, the closest thing to Vortex in any Blizzard game is the arbiter's stasis field, but I don't hear you making snide comments about that ability on these boards.
That's without even talking about the "Archon toilet" itself which is comparable to absolutely nothing in War3.
No, really, please do your research next time. -.-
aaaaaaaaand you completely missed the point. HERO UNITS. come at me. Edit: more stuff... concussive shells = warcraft slows.
On May 21 2012 01:37 Chef wrote: Too be honest I've watched a lot of GSL and what we saw last night was some of the most dynamic and interesting StarCraft 2 I've seen. It doesn't hold a candle to BW, but it was genuinely refreshing to see a game not decided immediately by a timing attack. Flash vs Effort was a huge let down, but Barracks vs hero and the game before it were both strategically much more complex than most SC2 games ever get to be.
So I mean, either you like what you see here or you shouldn't bother. Maybe come back in 6 months and see what they've done.
And yeah, SC2 pros are gonna have much more crisp timings that might kill the KeSPA league players right now, but IMO it is much better to watch the KeSPA pros develop an SC2 style that is interesting and have time to perfect it rather than throwing them into the fire and forcing them to adapt by copying the best timings of the pros. I think in a season or two you are gonna see BW pros bring a great style to SC2 that may not be the BW we love but at least it isn't as stagnant as SC2 is right now.
My issue with your statement is that you are essentially saying: "They are not playing the most efficiently, but it's more entertaining that way!" I mean, fair enough, but if I wanted to see entertaining but unpolished play, I can literally just go download 10 NA GM games right now and find entertaining play with weird strategies and odd metagaming all around.
What a sad day when the best players are neither the most entertaining nor the most awe inspiring.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
Wow, you say Warcraft and then you throw a Dota2 video at me? Rofl, are you trolling? The least you could've done was find a Dota video.
News flash: Warcraft != Dota. Just because Dota is a War3 custom doesn't mean they are the same (they're not, just in case you're wondering) or that the abilities in the games are the same. Most, if not all, of the abilities in Dota are heavily modified spells from War3. There is no spell in actual Warcraft TFT that is comparable to Vortex in SC2 in effect and scale; if anything, the closest thing to Vortex in any Blizzard game is the arbiter's stasis field, but I don't hear you making snide comments about that ability on these boards.
That's without even talking about the "Archon toilet" itself which is comparable to absolutely nothing in War3.
No, really, please do your research next time. -.-
aaaaaaaaand you completely missed the point. HERO UNITS. come at me. Edit: more stuff... concussive shells = warcraft slows.
You are either delusional or a BW purist, by writing your posts incoherently as you do you make me think you are delusional. Elaborate. Unit has spells so it's similar to MOBA hero units? I can't imagine how boring the game would be without things like Archon toilet.
I rather enjoyed watching the BW pros play SC2, tbh. It was entertaining even if some of the games were not of high quality.
Speaking as a Protoss player, I liked the Protoss BW pros use of the warp prism, plentiful observer usage (something most SC2 Protoss players don't do; most usually make around 3), micro of Protoss units and activity on the map. It was cool.
I think SC2, despite all its problems, may have more potential than I originally thought in the hands of the players and map-makers. I hope the BW pros play a good part in making that come to fruition. That said, I hope Blizzard don't screw it up with their seemingly uncontrollable desire to tinker with the game, not to mention HOTS.
The ProLeague games were some of the worst, best executed games i've seen... and they showcase nothing of SC2.
Since you probably don't have MLG Gold membership i can't link to the VODs yet, but the last few days i've seen some really great series, especially those involving Polt - the now Nicknamed Zombie Terran - or Stephano. Those 2 players have a talent for making any game exciting to watch, even more so when they play each other. Even in this MLG they were involved in so many close games with constant aggression that it was a pleasure to watch.
I couldn't find an english cast, but for example one of the best games i have seen: Polt vs Stephano:
The battle starting around 19:00 is especially memorable.
MMA vs Stephano:
MMA showing why he is such a TvZ monster.
Kiwikaki vs Stephano:
55 ingame minute (note for non-SC2 players, since games are usually on fastest speed, 1 real second = 1.39 ingame seconds, ingame clock is not realtime) long game that gets decided in the last 10 seconds. Featuring previously unseen use of the mothership.
Darkforce vs Nightend:
Maybe not the absolutely highest level, but Darkforce being down all game long and then coming back with a showcase of great decision making.
There are a ton more memorable matches but most are hidden somewhere in youtube where i can't find them atm.
For example MC vs PuMa in NASL Season 1 Grand Finals, the series that made EG pick up PuMa. PuMa vs HerO in i think assembly finals where HerO finally managed to win a major tournament.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
Wow, you say Warcraft and then you throw a Dota2 video at me? Rofl, are you trolling? The least you could've done was find a Dota video.
News flash: Warcraft != Dota. Just because Dota is a War3 custom doesn't mean they are the same (they're not, just in case you're wondering) or that the abilities in the games are the same. Most, if not all, of the abilities in Dota are heavily modified spells from War3. There is no spell in actual Warcraft TFT that is comparable to Vortex in SC2 in effect and scale; if anything, the closest thing to Vortex in any Blizzard game is the arbiter's stasis field, but I don't hear you making snide comments about that ability on these boards.
That's without even talking about the "Archon toilet" itself which is comparable to absolutely nothing in War3.
No, really, please do your research next time. -.-
aaaaaaaaand you completely missed the point. HERO UNITS. come at me. Edit: more stuff... concussive shells = warcraft slows.
You are either delusional or a BW purist, by writing your posts incoherently as you do you make me think you are delusional. Elaborate. Unit has spells so it's similar to MOBA hero units? I can't imagine how boring the game would be without things like Archon toilet.
Units can have spells. It's a hero unit because you can only make one. Simple really.
EPT
