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On May 11 2012 12:22 Psychobabas wrote:
If the protoss is smart enough to sacrifice a few stalker or zealot hitpoints and peek past the bunker to see if there is actually a command centre there he would know if it's an allin or not. You cant make a command centre and cancel it into barracks. Also, warpgate is the saving grace for that type of allin for protoss (the cancel nexus), which is rare I admit. But it's probably the most allin a Protoss can do, there is very little transition after that, and since it hits slightly later than the normal 4gate it relies a lot on the element of surprise.
Umm, and why can't a terran be "smart enough to sacrifice a few units" to see if an all-in is coming?
Why can you cancel a nexus into gateways but not cancel a command centre into a few barracks? I don't see the difference at all.
See, the thing is the game could very well be unbalanced. And, the complaint that the game is too volatile, and always comes down to one fight is something I've heard a lot at all levels of play. But, your arguments for why the game is unbalanced are just not consistent. What I am trying to show you here is that you have a mindset that is not letting you improve. Instead of figuring out what you need to fix to make this matchup better for you, you are in excuse mode.
And they're definitely just excuses, not legitimate complaints, because as I've shown here, and before, they are not logically consistent at all.
If we played a game, I'm sure you'd own me, as any race vs any race. But as someone rather removed from high-level SC2 play, I can be unbiased in pointing out where your mindset is letting you down.
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On May 11 2012 12:35 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 12:29 Angel_ wrote:
I always get really annoyed when people say "given equal skill, you will lose".
I know what people are generally trying to say but:
1. You're trying to WIN. Winning isn't about being of equal skill, it's about beating the other person, however you need to, AND, winning requires you to be better than your opponent, or for you to outplay him (sometimes by him not playing as well as he "potentially" could).
2. Making everything into this robot "if he plays at his best and i do i lose" is really just a loser mentality to look at things with.
3. Frankly, I think people are just playing badly or wrong. I know i'll get shit from someone for that, but frankly I think people, even at the top level, dont know the "best" way to play yet. Six months ago no one used zealots really as protoss. And they had an ultime best omega super duper gosu kickass deathball that was unbeatable. Then they started doing zealot drops and realized how fucking awesome zealots are. Then how fucking awesome chargelots were. This wasnt that long ago. The new deathball is chargelot heavy and has almost none of the almost entire stalker ball that the deathball used to contain. In six months, the deathball might be 4 carriers, 8 colossi, some voidrays, a mothership, some high templar and archons, and no real gateway units at all. And then protoss might make 35 scattered gateways to warp-in with in case their ultimate kickass army dies so they aren't as all in as a mech terran or a really broodlord heavy army.
That doesnt mean people aren't skilled, it just means...we still don't know how to use our units the "best" way. And right now terran are in a transition period.
4. Saying, "if i go into lategame against toss they're just going to win 100% unless they play stupid" again, is just a loser thing to say. Terran CAN lategame against toss. Terran CAN match a 200/200 army with a 200/200 army and win. Sure it might be a lot harder for the terran, but that doesn't mean you just CANT do it. And again, as people get better in general, start using positioning more, start mixing in more and other units, and maps change, that's going to become even more evident. So don't get so doomy about it.
<3 Like you said: Terran can win late game but it's a lot harder to win. 100% agreed on that. About the zealots. Zealots were utilised immediately after the buff that guaranteed a hit on charge so they wouldnt get kited to oblivion by marauders. About the deathball. It has always been the archon, zealot, colossus, ht composition. Cant remember anything else for a very long time.
no, it hasn't. they used to be a lot more stalker heavy. hell, the deathball didnt even use to really contain a lot of high templar.
and...even if i was completely wrong, does that actually change anything about that specific point?
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On May 11 2012 12:43 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 12:22 Psychobabas wrote:
If the protoss is smart enough to sacrifice a few stalker or zealot hitpoints and peek past the bunker to see if there is actually a command centre there he would know if it's an allin or not. You cant make a command centre and cancel it into barracks. Also, warpgate is the saving grace for that type of allin for protoss (the cancel nexus), which is rare I admit. But it's probably the most allin a Protoss can do, there is very little transition after that, and since it hits slightly later than the normal 4gate it relies a lot on the element of surprise. Umm, and why can't a terran be "smart enough to sacrifice a few units" to see if an all-in is coming? Why can you cancel a nexus into gateways but not cancel a command centre into a few barracks? I don't see the difference at all. See, the thing is the game could very well be unbalanced. And, the complaint that the game is too volatile, and always comes down to one fight is something I've heard a lot at all levels of play. But, your arguments for why the game is unbalanced are just not consistent. What I am trying to show you here is that you have a mindset that is not letting you improve. Instead of figuring out what you need to fix to make this matchup better for you, you are in excuse mode. And they're definitely just excuses, not legitimate complaints, because as I've shown here, and before, they are not logically consistent at all. If we played a game, I'm sure you'd own me, as any race vs any race. But as someone rather removed from high-level SC2 play, I can be unbiased in pointing out where your mindset is letting you down.
Umm, and why can't a terran be "smart enough to sacrifice a few units" to see if an all-in is coming?
You cant cater for every single allin. The nexus is probably the cheesiest allin Protoss can do. For all the rest, you need to scout with your scv before the stalker comes out and make an educated guess with what you see. (gas, number of pylons, nexus energy).
Why can you cancel a nexus into gateways but not cancel a command centre into a few barracks? I don't see the difference at all.
Simply put. The Warpgate mechanic allows for the cancellation of nexus into 3 cheap gateways that teleport units across the map and can pump out units constantly, with no regard to the map size. Cancelling the command would mean that Terran now needs to commit 2 or 3 scvs on the barracks, which are delayed considerably since you made the command centre, plus the time required for the units to travel across the map. It may work, but the chances of it working are hugely reduced by higher leagues and larger maps. By the time you do that, Protoss is already on 3 gates + 1 robotics, with sentries gaining energy.
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On May 11 2012 12:44 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 12:35 Psychobabas wrote:On May 11 2012 12:29 Angel_ wrote:
I always get really annoyed when people say "given equal skill, you will lose".
I know what people are generally trying to say but:
1. You're trying to WIN. Winning isn't about being of equal skill, it's about beating the other person, however you need to, AND, winning requires you to be better than your opponent, or for you to outplay him (sometimes by him not playing as well as he "potentially" could).
2. Making everything into this robot "if he plays at his best and i do i lose" is really just a loser mentality to look at things with.
3. Frankly, I think people are just playing badly or wrong. I know i'll get shit from someone for that, but frankly I think people, even at the top level, dont know the "best" way to play yet. Six months ago no one used zealots really as protoss. And they had an ultime best omega super duper gosu kickass deathball that was unbeatable. Then they started doing zealot drops and realized how fucking awesome zealots are. Then how fucking awesome chargelots were. This wasnt that long ago. The new deathball is chargelot heavy and has almost none of the almost entire stalker ball that the deathball used to contain. In six months, the deathball might be 4 carriers, 8 colossi, some voidrays, a mothership, some high templar and archons, and no real gateway units at all. And then protoss might make 35 scattered gateways to warp-in with in case their ultimate kickass army dies so they aren't as all in as a mech terran or a really broodlord heavy army.
That doesnt mean people aren't skilled, it just means...we still don't know how to use our units the "best" way. And right now terran are in a transition period.
4. Saying, "if i go into lategame against toss they're just going to win 100% unless they play stupid" again, is just a loser thing to say. Terran CAN lategame against toss. Terran CAN match a 200/200 army with a 200/200 army and win. Sure it might be a lot harder for the terran, but that doesn't mean you just CANT do it. And again, as people get better in general, start using positioning more, start mixing in more and other units, and maps change, that's going to become even more evident. So don't get so doomy about it.
<3 Like you said: Terran can win late game but it's a lot harder to win. 100% agreed on that. About the zealots. Zealots were utilised immediately after the buff that guaranteed a hit on charge so they wouldnt get kited to oblivion by marauders. About the deathball. It has always been the archon, zealot, colossus, ht composition. Cant remember anything else for a very long time. no, it hasn't. they used to be a lot more stalker heavy. hell, the deathball didnt even use to really contain a lot of high templar. and...even if i was completely wrong, does that actually change anything about that specific point?
Not really no. And the stalker heavy deathballs from the early seasons were again due to chargelots and archons being kited. And archons dying immediately to EMPs of course. Patches changed that rapidly.
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The title is misleading, don't say 12 years if you are not talking about BW.
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On May 11 2012 13:42 empty.bottle wrote:
The title is misleading, don't say 12 years if you are not talking about BW.
I think his point was that compared to TvP in BW (which was fantastic), SC2 TvP is really, really bad. You're definitely right about Protoss all-ins. I also play both races at a Master level, and the game is just simply easier in PvT than it is in TvP. There's a lot more micro required in the extreme early game and the extreme late game on the Terran's part, and the midgame is basically "harass the shit out of him, or you'll lose in 10 minutes." I consider my TvP my best TvX matchup, but it's still much, much harder than PvT.
In regards to the question about why Terran can't scout for a Nexus cancel into 4gate or whatever, the answer should be really obvious. A stalker is one of the fastest-moving ground units by default in the game and has a ton of health (especially taking rechargeable shields into consideration). It's almost the equivalent of sacrificing a stimmed marauder into a base, minus the fact that the marauder loses health just to move that quickly as well as it not being able to regenerate health (which it won't do until you get medivacs out, which won't happen if you don't survive the all-in, etc).
tl;dr you're right.
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What's this 2 base marine/Thor/banshee build? I wanna try it cause I've stopped caring about late game but can't find a good 2base all in build
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On May 11 2012 11:27 Turbovolver wrote:
If protoss all-ins are so strong, than larger maps are good for you. And yet you complain about both. This is evidence that your mindset is poisoning your play.
Imo one of the annoying things in TvP is that your statement isn't really true. For warpgate allins the map size doesn't matter. So your pressure gets significantly weaker on a huge map while the warpgate allin is about as good as before.
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On May 11 2012 14:51 Chaggi wrote:
What's this 2 base marine/Thor/banshee build? I wanna try it cause I've stopped caring about late game but can't find a good 2base all in build
You open 1 cloak banshee into fast expand. You harrass with the initial 2 banshee as best you can, build raven, bunker up (3-4 bunkers) and get the following production buildings in total:
3 naked barracks, no addons
2 factories
2 starports
You constantly produce marines, thors, banshees. Make +2 armor on your Thors. 250mm strike cannon if you scout many immortals. You push out at around 15-16 minutes maxed, with 16 scvs on autorepair. Use point defence drone. You can then start your third, with any excess minerals. Chances are, the game is decided at your push anyway.
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On May 11 2012 20:07 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 14:51 Chaggi wrote:
What's this 2 base marine/Thor/banshee build? I wanna try it cause I've stopped caring about late game but can't find a good 2base all in build You open 1 cloak banshee into fast expand. You harrass with the initial 2 banshee as best you can, build raven, bunker up (3-4 bunkers) and get the following production buildings in total: 3 naked barracks, no addons 2 factories 2 starports You constantly produce marines, thors, banshees. Make +2 armor on your Thors. 250mm strike cannon if you scout many immortals. You push out at around 15-16 minutes maxed, with 16 scvs on autorepair. You can then start your third, with any excess minerals. Chances are, the game is decided at your push anyway.
thanks
you got a rough replay? any will do
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EPT
