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Not sure why I am making this blog. I don't really make blogs. I have no experience in them, nor do I think that people actually care much anyway. But for this particular matter, I will blog, just for the sake of being noticed as a run-of-the-mill Starcraft 2 fan and Terran player (oh yes).
I always prided myself in following and playing starcraft since 1998. I have seen this game through its' incredible evolution into a truly competitive game. But this is not about glorifying Brood War and Starcraft 2. It is about what Blizzard has done to the Terran race in recent patches and more specifically the TvP matchup and its impact on my game.
So we are told that TvP is balanced. Do I agree? Well, depends on exactly what you mean by balance? Personally I think that balance is a close 50/50 winrate for Terran and Protoss on MY level (EU Mid/High Master Terran). Not on MVPs level, not on SuperBoy on Bronze league. No, MY level. And why is that? Because that's were I am at and what I care about.
Do I think TvP is balanced? No.
Did you expect me to say otherwise? Learn 2 play you say? Well actually I have. After failing miserably to get anything close to 50% winrate at this matchup vs people of my level, by playing "the correct way", I have followed Blizzards wise advice and finally agreed with them that yes, TvP is completely broken past the 15 minute mark, give or take, and I better do something about it.
Since November 2011 to March 2012 I have continuously played TvP to find a way to actually compete with players of my level. I managed to reach Masters league immediately in Season 2 due to my solid TvZ and TvT but always, always failed miserably on TvP. During those 5 months I pretty much tried every single TvP build out there. From 1/1/1 to 1 rax expand and its variations, to 2 base tank push, to skyterran, to 3 rax allins, even to hellion marine with the hope of outright crushing a fast expansion, yes I was that desperate. I downloaded countless replays, watched vods, streams, only watched GSL TvP with the aim of understanding the matchup as best as I could. I will not go into specifics in this blog like the brutal ht/colossus tech switch. All I will say is that I understood that this matchup is extremely volatile.
By this I mean that you can win or die at any moment with simply no chance of coming back. You decide to go 1 rax expand, he does some immortal bust, you are dead. You play conservative and he goes greedy, you most certainly dead. Maps are bigger, increasingly making TvP even more difficult. It's the multitude of allins, the unbelievable late game. I have had just disgusting games, where the Protoss is just refusing to attack, or even engage, he knows the clock is ticking for me. It really is incredible to see late game TvP. I used to rage, now I just laugh. And it is honest laughter I assure you. There is a lot of great comedy value in TvP late. You just have to admit it.
It all comes to this: You have 2 choices, either you go for the killing blow with a timing attack or you will die, both players being of similar skill. BeastyQT, Kas, MVP may have a different view but I honestly can say that on my level this is the reality for TvP and it is not pleasant. I am now literally 2 base marine/thor/banshee allining every single TvP. And guess what, I win a crapton more than what I used to. So I should be happy right? Happy I got those meaningless points for the ladder that I dont really care about anyway. It is completely pointless. I achieve absolutely nothing from killing a Protoss that just failed to scout that hidden armory at the corner of my base, or didnt bother sending another observer after I snipe the first one, being one of my priorities. Late game? I dont even touch lategame anymore! I dont even research stim! Or combat shields! Or even make a single marauder! Nope just 2 base it to oblivion.
But winning or losing with this means nothing to me. I would rather play a nice drawn out game, like TvZ, progressively be thrown into mid and late game, having a back and forth battle. I do NOT want a volatile game, see how that word came up again? As an ex-Brood War fan this was something that I finally realised in my thick skull. Something just clicked and said "Dude, this matchup is volatile, you lose and win from build order choices and from one simple misclick, get over with it already, make your choice."
Well my choice is that pathetic 2 base allin. I cant stand it and get nothing out of it.
Sorry for the most-likely depressing blog. I know most people would not care and just click on the "Find Game" button after reading this and forget about it. And yeah, I would too. If I didn't play Terran...
  
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Play mech TvP. It's the only thing you didn't list and probably the only thing you didn't try because people tell you "it's bad" (I'm looking at you, avilo).
Or something new I'm trying is marauder expo into blue flame drop into bio/mech, then at your 4th gogo battlecruisers.
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On May 11 2012 11:05 Cycle wrote:
Play mech TvP. It's the only thing you didn't list and probably the only thing you didn't try because people tell you "it's bad" (I'm looking at you, avilo).
Or something new I'm trying is marauder expo into blue flame drop into bio/mech, then at your 4th gogo battlecruisers.
thanks for replying.
I have played mech tvp and was following Goody very closely to learn it. It can work on certain maps and positions (close position Entombed Valley for example). But honestly, it just gets downright roflstomped on a multitude of maps. Hellion dmg nerf long ago combined with Thor having energy again spelt the end of mech as a solid choice. I'm not saying that it doesn't work in certain situations. I am saying that it ONLY works in certain situations and positions.
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You're not really being consistent in your complaints. I can't speak to the balance of the game, but you must look inwards and realised you are biased when you are simultaneously complaining about maps getting larger and the multitude of all-ins Protoss can do.
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I play both races at a masters level and it's not that bad if you understand the matchup correctly and are really good with ghost control / macro. If you can not control your army properly end game (don't take colossus hits while kiting, dont let your ghosts die etc) you will get rolled, just like a Protoss will get rolled by a 200/200 zerg at 12:00 minutes if he doesn't force field correctly at this 3rd base. It's part of the game, if you don't like that then switch races =/
tbh I hate this "well for us low league terrans TvP is imba we dont care about pro scene" argument. They balance the game for the top end players only as this is a competitive game. Any changes that would make terran "easier" or stronger in TvP would break the pro scene and we'de be back to having 80% terrans in code S like previous seasons..
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Your mindset is alot of what's killing you. Even if the mu is hard, thinking late game is impossible all but makes it impossible. Every single game is different and you'll always enter the late game in different positions. To say flat out late game is impossible is just ignorant. Macro better, ride your mid-game edge, spread, keep dropping with low energy medivacs etc. Play PvT and you'll start getting annoyed by stuff and it'll naturally improve your TvP gamesense. Having the mindset that this build (immortal bust) kills that build (1 rax fe) is retarded and completely ignores player skill level. Saying "oh i've tried every build and none work" doesnt mean anything. It's your execution that's letting you down. Top players can win with any build, bad players can't win with the most optimal ones.
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Well I do play Terran only so I suppose I am biased yes. But I am not unreasonable I don't think. After all, winning to me isn't that important. It's how I lose or win in TvP in particular. The specifics have been covered in a multitude of blogs and threads I think. I'm giving just my perspective as a gamer who wants to enjoy the game. Nothing more nothing less.
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I remember thinking TvP was imbalanced in BW, then this one fateful game my P opponent decides to walk into a nicely constructed tank line with vults/mines. His army evaporated in 15 secs. It changed the way I thought of the MU completely. I don't really know much about imbalance in SC2, but I think it's very rewarding when you experience a seemingly imbalanced matchup turn into "doable" turn into one that you actually enjoy and start liking.
Oh yeah, also builds mean nothing. What you want is to find a style that you want, then find a progamer that likes this style, then copy the strategy, not the build. A build is just an optimization of how and when to construct things. It's the strategy that will get you far.
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You should get rid of all your assumptions about this game and start from scratch. If you think that's impossible, you're too frustrated to be playing this game and won't improve.
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On May 11 2012 11:21 Psychobabas wrote:
Well I do play Terran only so I suppose I am biased yes. But I am not unreasonable I don't think. After all, winning to me isn't that important. It's how I lose or win in TvP in particular. The specifics have been covered in a multitude of blogs and threads I think. I'm giving just my perspective as a gamer who wants to enjoy the game. Nothing more nothing less.
There's something very valid to say in "this matchup is too volatile", but that makes it more of an "annoying coinflip" than "imba". For example someone else said "TvP isn't so bad so long as you have good ghost control" which quite frankly makes for a pretty bullshit game in my opinion. When I play P and feel like I have to make sentries and control them well to have a chance, that feels like bullshit to me too. But there's a big difference between complaining about volatility and complaining about balance.
If protoss all-ins are so strong, than larger maps are good for you. And yet you complain about both. This is evidence that your mindset is poisoning your play.
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On May 11 2012 11:19 Scarecrow wrote:
Your mindset is alot of what's killing you. Even if the mu is hard, thinking late game is impossible all but makes it impossible. Every single game is different and you'll always enter the late game in different positions. To say flat out late game is impossible is just ignorant. Macro better, ride your mid-game edge, spread, keep dropping with low energy medivacs etc. Play PvT and you'll start getting annoyed by stuff and it'll naturally improve your TvP gamesense. Having the mindset that this build (immortal bust) kills that build (1 rax fe) is retarded and completely ignores player skill level. Saying "oh i've tried every build and none work" doesnt mean anything. It's your execution that's letting you down. Top players can win with any build, bad players can't win with the most optimal ones.
thank you all for replying
The immortal bust was just an example. And lets not forget that I am not facing Parting in the ladder. I am facing Protoss players who constantly fuck up bigtime. As of course I do. But it seems to me that a Protoss fuckup will have way less repercussions to him than me missing an emp for example. I really dont want to go into specifics if I can help it as it has been discussed so many times. I'm just saddened to have to resort to an allin.
Dont get me wrong, my winrate has skyrocketed. But it's just pathetic to win like that. I think 5 months of dedicated TvP "exploring and training" is even a bit of overkill just for a casual gamer like me.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Maybe you should consider some tank-based TvP. It's the main style you haven't written about and the only thing you didn't try. Don't turn stuff down just cause the lame stream media tells you it's bad.
You can open in a variety of ways, like a 1 rax FE or a marauder build and even try out heavy air play!
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On May 11 2012 11:27 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 11:21 Psychobabas wrote:
Well I do play Terran only so I suppose I am biased yes. But I am not unreasonable I don't think. After all, winning to me isn't that important. It's how I lose or win in TvP in particular. The specifics have been covered in a multitude of blogs and threads I think. I'm giving just my perspective as a gamer who wants to enjoy the game. Nothing more nothing less. There's something very valid to say in "this matchup is too volatile", but that makes it more of an "annoying coinflip" than "imba". For example someone else said "TvP isn't so bad so long as you have good ghost control" which quite frankly makes for a pretty bullshit game in my opinion. When I play P and feel like I have to make sentries and control them well to have a chance, that feels like bullshit to me too. But there's a big difference between complaining about volatility and complaining about balance. If protoss all-ins are so strong, than larger maps are good for you. And yet you complain about both. This is evidence that your mindset is poisoning your play.
About the map/ allin thing. A large map will likely mean that the protoss will not cheese (Daybreak for example). But it also means that pressure will be very weak from the Terran leading to the "no-attack-into-3/0/3-maxed out with 20+ wargates" Protoss army fiasco.
Now imagine this, Terran scouts the 1 gate expand, the scv gets killed by the stalker, the protoss cancels nexus and throws +3 gateways. Terran thinking it's normal macro game stays on 1 bunker. 4 gate comes (or even 5gate, yep), Terran is dead, no doubt about it. Yes it is very very volatile. Games end just like that. Awful game design.
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On May 11 2012 11:35 Blazinghand wrote:
Maybe you should consider some tank-based TvP. It's the main style you haven't written about and the only thing you didn't try. Don't turn stuff down just cause the lame stream media tells you it's bad.
You can open in a variety of ways, like a 1 rax FE or a marauder build and even try out heavy air play!
It's not about the builds. OP's just gotta pick a solid one (not tank-based if he wants to be competitive) and execute it better.
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I play both Terran and Toss in masters, and honestly its not fun play pvt as toss either, its extremely hard to know what a terran is doing, which goes along with the greedy vs conservative thing you were talking about. I also hate playing tvp aswell though 
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On May 11 2012 11:42 Psychobabas wrote:
Now imagine this, Terran scouts the 1 gate expand, the scv gets killed by the stalker, the protoss cancels nexus and throws +3 gateways. Terran thinking it's normal macro game stays on 1 bunker. 4 gate comes (or even 5gate, yep), Terran is dead, no doubt about it. Yes it is very very volatile. Games end just like that. Awful game design.
Fooling people into preparing for one thing and then owning them with another is beautiful, not awful game design!
Do you feel like Brood War was awfully designed, and all the Koreans in the proscene were just wrong about it? Because this happens there and it's usually awesome to watch, too!
And, why can't Terran also fake an expo and then go for an all-in? Genuine question, because I wouldn't know well enough.
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On May 11 2012 12:12 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 11:42 Psychobabas wrote:
Now imagine this, Terran scouts the 1 gate expand, the scv gets killed by the stalker, the protoss cancels nexus and throws +3 gateways. Terran thinking it's normal macro game stays on 1 bunker. 4 gate comes (or even 5gate, yep), Terran is dead, no doubt about it. Yes it is very very volatile. Games end just like that. Awful game design.
Fooling people into preparing for one thing and then owning them with another is beautiful, not awful game design! Do you feel like Brood War was awfully designed, and all the Koreans in the proscene were just wrong about it? Because this happens there and it's usually awesome to watch, too! And, why can't Terran also fake an expo and then go for an all-in? Genuine question, because I wouldn't know well enough.
If the protoss is smart enough to sacrifice a few stalker or zealot hitpoints and peek past the bunker to see if there is actually a command centre there he would know if it's an allin or not. You cant make a command centre and cancel it into barracks. Also, warpgate is the saving grace for that type of allin for protoss (the cancel nexus), which is rare I admit. But it's probably the most allin a Protoss can do, there is very little transition after that, and since it hits slightly later than the normal 4gate it relies a lot on the element of surprise.
Allins are not really the problem. It's the shuffle between allins and the extremely powerful late game PvT. I am fully aware that Terran can also play mindgames on Protoss but once that clock ticks past 15:00 you already better be doing some serious damage to the Protoss or else. My feel of TvP anyway...
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I always get really annoyed when people say "given equal skill, you will lose".
I know what people are generally trying to say but:
1. You're trying to WIN. Winning isn't about being of equal skill, it's about beating the other person, however you need to, AND, winning requires you to be better than your opponent, or for you to outplay him (sometimes by him not playing as well as he "potentially" could).
2. Making everything into this robot "if he plays at his best and i do i lose" is really just a loser mentality to look at things with.
3. Frankly, I think people are just playing badly or wrong. I know i'll get shit from someone for that, but frankly I think people, even at the top level, dont know the "best" way to play yet. Six months ago no one used zealots really as protoss. And they had an ultime best omega super duper gosu kickass deathball that was unbeatable. Then they started doing zealot drops and realized how fucking awesome zealots are. Then how fucking awesome chargelots were. This wasnt that long ago. The new deathball is chargelot heavy and has almost none of the almost entire stalker ball that the deathball used to contain. In six months, the deathball might be 4 carriers, 8 colossi, some voidrays, a mothership, some high templar and archons, and no real gateway units at all. And then protoss might make 35 scattered gateways to warp-in with in case their ultimate kickass army dies so they aren't as all in as a mech terran or a really broodlord heavy army.
That doesnt mean people aren't skilled, it just means...we still don't know how to use our units the "best" way, or what our best mix for every situation and point in the game is. And right now terran are in a transition period.
4. Saying, "if i go into lategame against toss they're just going to win 100% unless they play stupid" again, is just a loser thing to say. Terran CAN lategame against toss. Terran CAN match a 200/200 army with a 200/200 army and win. Sure it might be a lot harder for the terran, but that doesn't mean you just CANT do it. And again, as people get better in general, start using positioning more, start mixing in more and other units, and maps change, that's going to become even more evident. So don't get so doomy about it.
<3
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On May 11 2012 11:16 -Exalt- wrote:
I play both races at a masters level and it's not that bad if you understand the matchup correctly and are really good with ghost control / macro. If you can not control your army properly end game (don't take colossus hits while kiting, dont let your ghosts die etc) you will get rolled, just like a Protoss will get rolled by a 200/200 zerg at 12:00 minutes if he doesn't force field correctly at this 3rd base. It's part of the game, if you don't like that then switch races =/
tbh I hate this "well for us low league terrans TvP is imba we dont care about pro scene" argument. They balance the game for the top end players only as this is a competitive game. Any changes that would make terran "easier" or stronger in TvP would break the pro scene and we'de be back to having 80% terrans in code S like previous seasons..
I am not saying that what you re saying isn't true. All I ask is rigid evidence that Blizzard has actually said that.
Because if that is the case, it will make me even more confident in just 2 base allining TvP all the time, because I can never reach that type of play along with the vast majority of people on TL.net. So please: Where's the evidence of that?
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On May 11 2012 12:29 Angel_ wrote:
I always get really annoyed when people say "given equal skill, you will lose".
I know what people are generally trying to say but:
1. You're trying to WIN. Winning isn't about being of equal skill, it's about beating the other person, however you need to, AND, winning requires you to be better than your opponent, or for you to outplay him (sometimes by him not playing as well as he "potentially" could).
2. Making everything into this robot "if he plays at his best and i do i lose" is really just a loser mentality to look at things with.
3. Frankly, I think people are just playing badly or wrong. I know i'll get shit from someone for that, but frankly I think people, even at the top level, dont know the "best" way to play yet. Six months ago no one used zealots really as protoss. And they had an ultime best omega super duper gosu kickass deathball that was unbeatable. Then they started doing zealot drops and realized how fucking awesome zealots are. Then how fucking awesome chargelots were. This wasnt that long ago. The new deathball is chargelot heavy and has almost none of the almost entire stalker ball that the deathball used to contain. In six months, the deathball might be 4 carriers, 8 colossi, some voidrays, a mothership, some high templar and archons, and no real gateway units at all. And then protoss might make 35 scattered gateways to warp-in with in case their ultimate kickass army dies so they aren't as all in as a mech terran or a really broodlord heavy army.
That doesnt mean people aren't skilled, it just means...we still don't know how to use our units the "best" way. And right now terran are in a transition period.
4. Saying, "if i go into lategame against toss they're just going to win 100% unless they play stupid" again, is just a loser thing to say. Terran CAN lategame against toss. Terran CAN match a 200/200 army with a 200/200 army and win. Sure it might be a lot harder for the terran, but that doesn't mean you just CANT do it. And again, as people get better in general, start using positioning more, start mixing in more and other units, and maps change, that's going to become even more evident. So don't get so doomy about it.
<3
Like you said: Terran can win late game but it's a lot harder to win. 100% agreed on that.
About the zealots. Zealots were utilised immediately after the buff that guaranteed a hit on charge so they wouldnt get kited to oblivion by marauders.
About the deathball. It has always been the archon, zealot, colossus, ht composition. Cant remember anything else for a very long time.
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EPT
