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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
Brood War has to end today
The professional BW scene that I and many others love so much, it has to end now. The announcement that Blizzard, OGN and Kespa scheduled for today, it has to be that the next season of Proleague and the next OSL will be SC2 only.
Having BW go on forever like my signature says has never been realistic and I never meant it that way to be honest. It was just an expression of how much I am disappointed with SC2. Game Graphics develope and eventually a game will be better than BW though so far imo it is not SC2. Nonetheless BW has weaknesses, as an easy example ZvZ and PvP are both too luck based and I don't like watching them. From what I seen so far in SC2, and my knowledge is limited so bear with me if I am wrong, is that ZvZ is a better than in BW while PvP has somehow become even more luck based and horrible to watch. I would much rather want BW to get replaced by a game that I like more - and I still hope that HotS will fix much of what I consider wrong and bad in SC2 - but this is not the point because if I still don't like the game after HotS then I guess Korean Starcraft will go on without me. What gives me a slightly positive feeling about HotS is that they take so much time with releasing it. This probably means they also know how important this addon will be.
But anyway. If you like it or not the switch is inevitable now. The die is cast, the decision is made and it will be announced in a few hours. It will say that in some way the next PL and OSL will include SC2, in one way or the other. Don't get me wrong, I would still prefer them to announce "negotiations failed, BW will go on" but it won't happen. And for the future let's be realistic. In the long run it means that eventually BW will get completely replaced by SC2, especially with Blizzard involved because they won't be interested at all in promoting BW. So even if the announcement would be that next season would be a split season between SC2 and BW this would only prolong the inevitable.
What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
The most important thing here are the players, though. Do you remember when it was annoucned that there wouldn't be any more 2v2. At first I didn't like it because I enjoyed watching 2v2 but the argument that playing 2v2 actually harms those who play it was convincing. 2v2 and 1v1 are completely different games with completely different timings so if you practice one you fall behind in the other. And that meant no Starleague success for 2v2ers, no Ace matches and certainly no way to improve themselves. That argument convinced me that getting rid of 2v2 was the only right thing to do.
And it is the same with BW and SC2. What good would it do for a couple of players to keep practicing BW just for one, maybe two seasons? All it would do to them is make them fall uncatchable behind those who immediately started practicing SC2. Now I don't want to argue about how far current BW Pros are behind SC2 players and how much better they are because that was already discussed to death but I am convinced that no one could catch up after two addional seasons of BW.
 
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On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
as an easy example ZvZ and PvP are both too luck based
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
my knowledge is limited
![[image loading]](http://www.zoklet.net/images/smilies/others/facepalm.gif)
0/5
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Famously a protoss player named Oz in the SC2 community said, angrily, that if anyone thinks PvP is luck based, he will beat them in it with skill.
also, ZvZ doesn't seem to have luck aspects in it past the early game. It is simply difficult for people with a low level understanding to see the decisions, and mistakes, being made.
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On May 02 2012 01:30 9heart wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
as an easy example ZvZ and PvP are both too luck based
0/5
Yeah, what this user said.
You sound like you're complaining about something that you personally find distasteful but have no knowledge or experience with.
1/5
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On May 02 2012 01:36 Thaniri wrote:
Famously a protoss player named Oz in the SC2 community said, angrily, that if anyone thinks PvP is luck based, he will beat them in it with skill.
also, ZvZ doesn't seem to have luck aspects in it past the early game. It is simply difficult for people with a low level understanding to see the decisions, and mistakes, being made.
wait Oz said that? i wish i could see what he was talking about since i don't see the skill in PvP unless you get something awesome like 3gate blinkobs vs 3gate blinkobs but the circle of counters is so rough to deal with that idk how he is able to say that (then again he is the wizard of pvp afaik)
as for ZvZ once the ling baneling wars are over it appears to be a skill based mu though i don't know for sure
i do miss bw ZvZ though those muta and ling battles were so sick and amazing
i will never forget the domination that was JvZ
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Ban incoming, as long as there is still demand for BW at a high level, I think and hope it will stay around in some facet.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On May 02 2012 01:45 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:30 9heart wrote:On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
as an easy example ZvZ and PvP are both too luck based
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
my knowledge is limited
0/5 Yeah, what this user said. You sound like you're complaining about something that you personally find distasteful but have no knowledge or experience with. 1/5
The heck??? The quoted opinion on ZvZ and PvP is clearly about BW, the acknowledgement of lack of game knowledge is clearly about SC2. Gosh, it is not such a long entry, read it properly.
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On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
This is just being dramatic. As a BW fan, I would be much happier with some BW than with no BW, period. As a SC2 fan, I would be happy to see the game that built the franchise we all love continue to thrive.
As a realist, I know that the problem is that SC2 is built on an Activision customer base where the vast majority of consumers are fickle teenagers looking for flashy explosions and all too eager to drop their current game for the next big thing. The only reason it makes sense to say a mixed season would be a bad thing is that your average casual SC2 player doesn't really fit in with the culture TL/BW built over the last decade, and there's so many of those casual fans that they drown out the people who just love StarCraft and that's that. The voices we hear shouting the loudest are the SC2 guy saying "lol bw is old get over it guys amirite" and the BW guy say "SC2 is a shitty game it's killing the things I love", but there's a pretty wide range of more reasonable opinions between the two extremes.
I watch BW, but I don't play it, since frankly, it's way too fucking difficult for me to enjoy it and I don't have the time or the drive to learn to be any good. But that same difficulty level and depth is what makes it so mind-blowingly awesome to watch BW pros duke it out. I play SC2 a little bit when I have nothing else more important to do, and it's pretty fun, and more importantly, it's StarCraft. I watch it because it's cool to see pros play a game you enjoy/play, and again, because it's StarCraft. I think everyone recognizes on some level that BW is miles beyond SC2 in many respects, but I still find the latter pretty awesome in the same way middle-school me found SC1 awesome. If we can get the two of them to coexist indefinitely, that's just about the best thing I could possible hope to see.
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You're obviously a BW-fanboy and I applaud your courage to say what you have just said.
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On May 02 2012 01:56 Iranon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
This is just being dramatic. As a BW fan, I would be much happier with some BW than with no BW, period. As a SC2 fan, I would be happy to see the game that built the franchise we all love continue to thrive.
Some aren't. They would rather see a full switch than a BW-SC2 league because playing both games clearly mean that we'll see lower level BW games being broadcasted.
Which I think is a correct statement. If you look at the past season, the games were "meh" compared to the previous seasons. It's not like we had lackluster roster or horrible maps in Proleague; players weren't just performing well and/or not playing their best.
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On May 02 2012 02:06 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:56 Iranon wrote:On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
This is just being dramatic. As a BW fan, I would be much happier with some BW than with no BW, period. As a SC2 fan, I would be happy to see the game that built the franchise we all love continue to thrive. Some aren't. They would rather see a full switch than a BW-SC2 league because playing both games clearly mean that we'll see lower level BW games being broadcasted. Which I think is a correct statement. If you look at the past season, the games were "meh" compared to the previous seasons. It's not like we had lackluster roster or horrible maps in Proleague; players weren't just performing well and/or not playing their best.
That's fair to say, that the quality of BW games would decline. I may be in the minority here, but I think that's a acceptable, however unpleasant, price to pay.
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On May 02 2012 02:09 Iranon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:06 supernovamaniac wrote:On May 02 2012 01:56 Iranon wrote:On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
This is just being dramatic. As a BW fan, I would be much happier with some BW than with no BW, period. As a SC2 fan, I would be happy to see the game that built the franchise we all love continue to thrive. Some aren't. They would rather see a full switch than a BW-SC2 league because playing both games clearly mean that we'll see lower level BW games being broadcasted. Which I think is a correct statement. If you look at the past season, the games were "meh" compared to the previous seasons. It's not like we had lackluster roster or horrible maps in Proleague; players weren't just performing well and/or not playing their best. That's fair to say, that the quality of BW games would decline. I may be in the minority here, but I think that's a acceptable, however unpleasant, price to pay.
It's an argument where people will take sides and argue, which I'm fine with as long as they understand where people are coming from (of course, we may have some little misunderstandings here and there when this issue is brought up due to "NEWER SO ITS BETTER, MOVE ON" trolls popping up everywhere). As long as they understand what's happening and understand the facts, I'm okay with people taking sides.
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On May 02 2012 01:48 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:45 Praetorial wrote:On May 02 2012 01:30 9heart wrote:On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
as an easy example ZvZ and PvP are both too luck based
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
my knowledge is limited
0/5 Yeah, what this user said. You sound like you're complaining about something that you personally find distasteful but have no knowledge or experience with. 1/5 The heck??? The quoted opinion on ZvZ and PvP is clearly about BW, the acknowledgement of lack of game knowledge is clearly about SC2. Gosh, it is not such a long entry, read it properly.
I realized that and took it into account on my response.
From what I seen so far in SC2, and my knowledge is limited so bear with me if I am wrong, is that ZvZ is a better than in BW while PvP has somehow become even more luck based and horrible to watch.
The difference is that of opinion. I respect yours, but you are being too sensationalistic. The old must die to make way for new growth, but Brood War is hardly old or dying, it's simply beginning to be overshadowed. It hasn't been eclipsed, not yet.
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United Kingdom3101 Posts
No, it actually has according to the OP.
That is exactly the point OP is making : If the Proleague isn't BW only, that's it. BW has been overshadowed. BW has been put on notice. BW is under "also ran" at its own tournament. It should be put out of its misery.
This is what the OP is writing. You should comment on that. It's a rather harsh view and surely there are more arguments to challenge this viewpoint than "no i think it isnt dying".
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Is there a thread somewhere to follow this blizzard/kespa thing?
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BW PvP is NOT luck based. Never heard that before in my whole life. It requires so much skill because you are microing so many units at once while your opponent does the same. You need the ability to defend against many other BO's, you need scouting skills, you need SO MUCH MICRO. Now, if you do pure macro/a-click, then yeah, its pure luck, just as it would be in any other MU...
Every PvP I've won or lost was either to skill or cheeses that at the time I didn't have the skill to defend against. In other words, always skill.
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United Kingdom3101 Posts
Mothra, there will be an announcement in a couple of hours from now on, and you will no doubt see a huge thread on TL about it.
PVP in SC2 is right now the mirror matchup I enjoy watching the most. It feels very tight and fun.
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On May 02 2012 01:30 9heart wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote:
as an easy example ZvZ and PvP are both too luck based
0/5
This is what happens when you take two quotes out of context and put them next to each other. It is meaningless, and your post is the one that deserves 0/5.
Fenrax was clearly saying that his SC2 knowledge is limited, in contrast with his BW knowledge.
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5/5
This is inevitably a polarizing subject, however, it is presented tastefully.
I agree though; one must stand, and one must fall!
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I still think bw zvz is more interesting than SC2. Longer games don't always mean more exciting.
If what you say is true, today is a sad day.
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EPT
