The professional BW scene that I and many others love so much, it has to end now. The announcement that Blizzard, OGN and Kespa scheduled for today, it has to be that the next season of Proleague and the next OSL will be SC2 only.
Having BW go on forever like my signature says has never been realistic and I never meant it that way to be honest. It was just an expression of how much I am disappointed with SC2. Game Graphics develope and eventually a game will be better than BW though so far imo it is not SC2. Nonetheless BW has weaknesses, as an easy example ZvZ and PvP are both too luck based and I don't like watching them. From what I seen so far in SC2, and my knowledge is limited so bear with me if I am wrong, is that ZvZ is a better than in BW while PvP has somehow become even more luck based and horrible to watch. I would much rather want BW to get replaced by a game that I like more - and I still hope that HotS will fix much of what I consider wrong and bad in SC2 - but this is not the point because if I still don't like the game after HotS then I guess Korean Starcraft will go on without me. What gives me a slightly positive feeling about HotS is that they take so much time with releasing it. This probably means they also know how important this addon will be.
But anyway. If you like it or not the switch is inevitable now. The die is cast, the decision is made and it will be announced in a few hours. It will say that in some way the next PL and OSL will include SC2, in one way or the other. Don't get me wrong, I would still prefer them to announce "negotiations failed, BW will go on" but it won't happen. And for the future let's be realistic. In the long run it means that eventually BW will get completely replaced by SC2, especially with Blizzard involved because they won't be interested at all in promoting BW. So even if the announcement would be that next season would be a split season between SC2 and BW this would only prolong the inevitable.
What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
The most important thing here are the players, though. Do you remember when it was annoucned that there wouldn't be any more 2v2. At first I didn't like it because I enjoyed watching 2v2 but the argument that playing 2v2 actually harms those who play it was convincing. 2v2 and 1v1 are completely different games with completely different timings so if you practice one you fall behind in the other. And that meant no Starleague success for 2v2ers, no Ace matches and certainly no way to improve themselves. That argument convinced me that getting rid of 2v2 was the only right thing to do. And it is the same with BW and SC2. What good would it do for a couple of players to keep practicing BW just for one, maybe two seasons? All it would do to them is make them fall uncatchable behind those who immediately started practicing SC2. Now I don't want to argue about how far current BW Pros are behind SC2 players and how much better they are because that was already discussed to death but I am convinced that no one could catch up after two addional seasons of BW.
Famously a protoss player named Oz in the SC2 community said, angrily, that if anyone thinks PvP is luck based, he will beat them in it with skill.
also, ZvZ doesn't seem to have luck aspects in it past the early game. It is simply difficult for people with a low level understanding to see the decisions, and mistakes, being made.
On May 02 2012 01:36 Thaniri wrote: Famously a protoss player named Oz in the SC2 community said, angrily, that if anyone thinks PvP is luck based, he will beat them in it with skill.
also, ZvZ doesn't seem to have luck aspects in it past the early game. It is simply difficult for people with a low level understanding to see the decisions, and mistakes, being made.
wait Oz said that? i wish i could see what he was talking about since i don't see the skill in PvP unless you get something awesome like 3gate blinkobs vs 3gate blinkobs but the circle of counters is so rough to deal with that idk how he is able to say that (then again he is the wizard of pvp afaik)
as for ZvZ once the ling baneling wars are over it appears to be a skill based mu though i don't know for sure i do miss bw ZvZ though those muta and ling battles were so sick and amazing i will never forget the domination that was JvZ
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote: as an easy example ZvZ and PvP are both too luck based
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote: my knowledge is limited
0/5
Yeah, what this user said.
You sound like you're complaining about something that you personally find distasteful but have no knowledge or experience with.
1/5
The heck??? The quoted opinion on ZvZ and PvP is clearly about BW, the acknowledgement of lack of game knowledge is clearly about SC2. Gosh, it is not such a long entry, read it properly.
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote: What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
This is just being dramatic. As a BW fan, I would be much happier with some BW than with no BW, period. As a SC2 fan, I would be happy to see the game that built the franchise we all love continue to thrive.
As a realist, I know that the problem is that SC2 is built on an Activision customer base where the vast majority of consumers are fickle teenagers looking for flashy explosions and all too eager to drop their current game for the next big thing. The only reason it makes sense to say a mixed season would be a bad thing is that your average casual SC2 player doesn't really fit in with the culture TL/BW built over the last decade, and there's so many of those casual fans that they drown out the people who just love StarCraft and that's that. The voices we hear shouting the loudest are the SC2 guy saying "lol bw is old get over it guys amirite" and the BW guy say "SC2 is a shitty game it's killing the things I love", but there's a pretty wide range of more reasonable opinions between the two extremes.
I watch BW, but I don't play it, since frankly, it's way too fucking difficult for me to enjoy it and I don't have the time or the drive to learn to be any good. But that same difficulty level and depth is what makes it so mind-blowingly awesome to watch BW pros duke it out. I play SC2 a little bit when I have nothing else more important to do, and it's pretty fun, and more importantly, it's StarCraft. I watch it because it's cool to see pros play a game you enjoy/play, and again, because it's StarCraft. I think everyone recognizes on some level that BW is miles beyond SC2 in many respects, but I still find the latter pretty awesome in the same way middle-school me found SC1 awesome. If we can get the two of them to coexist indefinitely, that's just about the best thing I could possible hope to see.
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote: What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
This is just being dramatic. As a BW fan, I would be much happier with some BW than with no BW, period. As a SC2 fan, I would be happy to see the game that built the franchise we all love continue to thrive.
Some aren't. They would rather see a full switch than a BW-SC2 league because playing both games clearly mean that we'll see lower level BW games being broadcasted.
Which I think is a correct statement. If you look at the past season, the games were "meh" compared to the previous seasons. It's not like we had lackluster roster or horrible maps in Proleague; players weren't just performing well and/or not playing their best.
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote: What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
This is just being dramatic. As a BW fan, I would be much happier with some BW than with no BW, period. As a SC2 fan, I would be happy to see the game that built the franchise we all love continue to thrive.
Some aren't. They would rather see a full switch than a BW-SC2 league because playing both games clearly mean that we'll see lower level BW games being broadcasted.
Which I think is a correct statement. If you look at the past season, the games were "meh" compared to the previous seasons. It's not like we had lackluster roster or horrible maps in Proleague; players weren't just performing well and/or not playing their best.
That's fair to say, that the quality of BW games would decline. I may be in the minority here, but I think that's a acceptable, however unpleasant, price to pay.
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote: What is left to do now is to do it right and the only right thing is a hard cut and that means no more BW and only SC2. A mixed season of BW and SC2 would just be the very definition of "half-assed". It wouldn't do any good for anyone and neither BW nor SC2 fans would be happy with it. Instead of giving both sides what they want it would give neither.
This is just being dramatic. As a BW fan, I would be much happier with some BW than with no BW, period. As a SC2 fan, I would be happy to see the game that built the franchise we all love continue to thrive.
Some aren't. They would rather see a full switch than a BW-SC2 league because playing both games clearly mean that we'll see lower level BW games being broadcasted.
Which I think is a correct statement. If you look at the past season, the games were "meh" compared to the previous seasons. It's not like we had lackluster roster or horrible maps in Proleague; players weren't just performing well and/or not playing their best.
That's fair to say, that the quality of BW games would decline. I may be in the minority here, but I think that's a acceptable, however unpleasant, price to pay.
It's an argument where people will take sides and argue, which I'm fine with as long as they understand where people are coming from (of course, we may have some little misunderstandings here and there when this issue is brought up due to "NEWER SO ITS BETTER, MOVE ON" trolls popping up everywhere). As long as they understand what's happening and understand the facts, I'm okay with people taking sides.
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote: as an easy example ZvZ and PvP are both too luck based
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote: my knowledge is limited
0/5
Yeah, what this user said.
You sound like you're complaining about something that you personally find distasteful but have no knowledge or experience with.
1/5
The heck??? The quoted opinion on ZvZ and PvP is clearly about BW, the acknowledgement of lack of game knowledge is clearly about SC2. Gosh, it is not such a long entry, read it properly.
I realized that and took it into account on my response.
From what I seen so far in SC2, and my knowledge is limited so bear with me if I am wrong, is that ZvZ is a better than in BW while PvP has somehow become even more luck based and horrible to watch.
The difference is that of opinion. I respect yours, but you are being too sensationalistic. The old must die to make way for new growth, but Brood War is hardly old or dying, it's simply beginning to be overshadowed. It hasn't been eclipsed, not yet.
That is exactly the point OP is making : If the Proleague isn't BW only, that's it. BW has been overshadowed. BW has been put on notice. BW is under "also ran" at its own tournament. It should be put out of its misery.
This is what the OP is writing. You should comment on that. It's a rather harsh view and surely there are more arguments to challenge this viewpoint than "no i think it isnt dying".
BW PvP is NOT luck based. Never heard that before in my whole life. It requires so much skill because you are microing so many units at once while your opponent does the same. You need the ability to defend against many other BO's, you need scouting skills, you need SO MUCH MICRO. Now, if you do pure macro/a-click, then yeah, its pure luck, just as it would be in any other MU...
Every PvP I've won or lost was either to skill or cheeses that at the time I didn't have the skill to defend against. In other words, always skill.
On May 02 2012 01:22 Fenrax wrote: my knowledge is limited
0/5
This is what happens when you take two quotes out of context and put them next to each other. It is meaningless, and your post is the one that deserves 0/5.
Fenrax was clearly saying that his SC2 knowledge is limited, in contrast with his BW knowledge.
If this is a troll, it's a bad troll. If it's about how BW needs to end, then it doesn't make any sense. If it's about ZvZ and PvP being too luck based, then it's just plain wrong.
I read this and thought that it was going to be some bronze league sc2 talking shit about my childhood. (Masters league toss here). I think Broodwar will end and i think you are right about many things.
ZvZ in BW is really less luck based than you think, and saying it is worse than the clusterfuck that ZvZ is in SC2... I'm not really convinced.
Not to mention the irrationality of wanting something you enjoy ending faster. Now, it's your own opinion, and I have mine, but the thing is there are people that still want to watch BW. You don't even know the number of the Koreans that share the sentiment. Saying that BW needs to die now is... in lack of better word, preposterous.
I kinda understand what the OP is getting at. A lot of the ODT games have been just terrible because of players practicing SC2 instead of BW. Maybe it's better to have no games rather than terrible games.
Of course, it'd be much much preferable for players who are currently qualified for a BW tournament to practice for the game they are actually playing on TV instead of for an as-yet non-existent hybrid Proleague. The fact that teams are apparently mandating SC2 practice instead disgusts me a little actually. Have some respect for your players and allow them to give their best in what's possibly the final pro BW tournament.
I agree with the OP in that, BW will end sooner or later, it is inevitable. The big argument always was of should it end sooner rather then later.
Personally I didn't follow the BW scene for a long time. I first got into SC2, but then I started to get interested in BW and followed its scene a bit. The few games of BW that I have seen have been amazing, breathtaking back and forth tactical and strategical master pieces.
In m short time with BW it has left a lasting impression on me, and it truly saddens me that its glorious run has to end someday. However my opinion, and probably that of the OP as well is that, it should end sooner.
They should just run one last full BW OSL and have a grand goodbye celebration to commemorate it, no half SC2 and half BW tournament. It would just dilute the level of play from each game, which would be a pity.
BW should always be remembered in its full glory, for the epic confrontations between Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, Jangbi and Stork, for the reigns of Nada, Savior (pre scandal), iloveoov and for all the rivals that stood against them.
I couldn't bare to see BW played at a lower level, so I would prefer it to go out with a bang, rather then wither away until I hate on how low the skill level reaches.
Whether its BW or SC2, the scene can only exist with support and sponsorship. Blizzard has the financial backing and industry might to push SC2 as far as it wants to. BW can only exist through the well spoken words of Kespa executives and the crying of the [still majority] of BW fans ... and if there's enough financial incentive through one or the other well ...
nice blog. Well written and interesting train of thought. It's odd to see this opinion coming from someone who has long been one of those big BW community members.
As for the people who berated your blog without actually reading it, and obviously just skimming it or misunderstanding, well haters gonna hate. Ignore them, keep up the good work. Good blog, but I'll still miss BW : (
Great post! It's nice to see a post that's really backed with great supporting evidence and claims.
Brood War cannot go on forever, let it be replaced by a game with lesser game play because it is more aesthetically appealing. I mean, that first statement makes so much sense that I just want to switch to Starcraft 2 right fucking now. "Game graphics are getting better therefore better games will be developed". I made the same connection, because who wants 2D games who actually function better and are more interesting as far as game play dynamics anyway. It's better that we get to see a bunch of sprites overlap so that we're not too sure what's in the army, but holy shit does it ever look nice when it blows up!
Secondly, I totally agree that ZvZ and PvP in BW are entirely luck based, Jaedong just happened to have a weighted die... Perfectly normal that I flip heads 86% of the time I'd say. I don't really have any concrete examples that prove PvP is luck based, but I'm sure you can all find some in TLPD.
Past your entry two paragraphs I actually sincerely(non-sarcastically) agree with the rest, but, your entire blog should have been without the opening statements about the game itself... because it just makes you look like an idiot when the remainder of your blog is actually pretty legit, thus people won't read through it if they're BW fans, also, the title already incites rage. So, aside from the minor issues with the blog/identifying and addressing your audience, you have some valid points, however, one could argue that SC2 needs to die for exactly the same reasons... Thus, moot point, but at least it's less of an offensive argument and you're actually presenting stuff that makes sense. Just take into account when you post stuff like this, you don't have to convince SC2 fans, thus the BW fans should be your primary audience and given that it's a pitiful approach to say the least. Similarly, my post is also a terrible attempt to make a point with you, however, given that my primary point is to identify what you did wrong here, I'd say it's alright.
Bw has to end today but this wouldn't be the topic being discuss if sc2 wasn't in the picture from the beginning and yeah I half heartedly blame sc2 for the end of bw in a way . I am about to talk trash about sc2 again but I will refrain from doing that again because in the end what I say or express about that superb starcraft 2 will not change anything unless I become a developer of sc2 .
Let's just say that every good thing has come to an end but we are not in the position to give that command right now as kespa is having one more season of broodwar than it is really over for us bw fans and some of us may stick around to watch the really amazing sequel of sc2 take flight or possibly see it crashing down because of few minor technicalities that occur . I really hope that sc 2 is actually preparing to overhaul it's over all game play and make it more enjoying to be a spectator of the game like broodwar .
Still I will remember that broodwar did not die because of sc2 but the decision of kespa and sponsor who forced broodwar cornered in to this position . I will go around moping like a sad puppy but I think I will be able to get over it soon .
Finally I just want to state that there has never been a game played globally at this level of popularity of broodwar . It went down fighting and not died of like some coward . In my attempt to feel really moody about all this situation this song really describes my feeling over the situation that is happening right now ..
EPT
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