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Hey everyone!
So lately I have seen a lot of people question Scarlett's ability to play in a female only tournament, simply because she wasn't born a female. So I have decided, since this topic is really starting to annoy me that I am going to write a rant for you all to read! With that being said I want to mention that I do have many transgender friends - One of them being my best friend who was actually born female but she basically identifies and lives her life as a man. She has done so since we met in elementary school. So with that being said, lets get right to my rant!
1.) Female tournaments are to encourage the growth of females being involved. It is something that is needed at the moment.
2.) If someone lives their life as a female, identifies themselves as a female - Regardless of operation or not, then why shouldn't she be treated as a female?! Those operations are NOT cheap. So you can't expect every bloody transgender individual to be able to afford such an operation.
The next bit of my rant goes as followed:
What makes a woman? What do you HONESTLY think makes a woman? It is some kind of idea you have had in your head... It is your opinion of what a female should be. This is an opinion we all grow up with. We all have our own opinions and thoughts on what we think a guy should be or what a female should be, but tell me what really makes a female?
Lets break this down and think about it:
The fact she was born female?
~ By law sure, by looks sure - Does this mean she really feels that way or lives her life that way? Does this mean she identifies herself as a female? No.
The fact that she has a big bra size?
~ No.
The looks?
~ No.
Being delicate?
~ No.
It is your FRAME of mind that defines your gender. In other words, it is your way of thinking and seeing yourself, that defines what gender you classify yourself as.
It is the WAY you LIVE YOUR LIFE.
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It is WHAT gender you identify yourself as - If that is female, then you are female. If it is male, then you are male.
Now let me tell you what does NOT make a female:
It is NOT the make up.
It is NOT the body.
It is NOT what the birth certificate says.
So Lets Quickly Review What Defines You As Being A "Female":
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you represent yourself.
It SHOULD be defined by what you IDENTIFY yourself as to everyone else.
That is all there is to it. Those who don't understand that, should really open their eyes and rethink of how they "define" what is a "female" or a "woman".
It is rather sickening that so many of you are so closed minded and want to assume the worst. The person that runs a tournament can decide to allow transgenders in if they so choose. This isn't a beauty pageant where your bloody birth certificate is required. It is a game! The idea of such tournaments is to help PROMOTE E-Sports more. It is meant to help encourage other ladies to play as well! Thanks to Scarlett, quite a few of the girls in GoSc decide to start playing again and practicing a lot more, just to try to improve! They were inspired by her! Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?. This frame of mind that many of you have at this moment could end up making this such a nasty community to be a part of or it could even just hurt the goal of helping expand E-Sports. What makes her so different? So what if she was born differently! We all were born differently! It is what makes us who we are! So stop hating just cause she is going some where and she doesn't fit your opinion of what a woman should be. Instead, support her and all other transgender individuals! Welcome them with open arms, just as you would welcome any other gamer!
With that I am ending my rant. Thanks for reading.
~~~
EDIT: Part of the point I am trying to make was best said by Phraside on a reddit post earlier today:
"It is not particularly unfair to the other women for several reasons. The main reason is there is no actual physical advantage to being a male in starcraft. Iron Lady is not about having female genitalia, but actually about bringing together and highlighting a pretty small part of the community. If a person identifies as female, we see them as female."
~~~
  
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Just sayign .. if they dont have a vagina they arent a female.. It's biologically impossible to reproduce that way when you need a male and female..
You can call them a female.. but hey...i dont know any "women" i've been with that dont have the above body part.. for instance, if I ended up dating a transgendered individual who thought they were a woman, but really weren't... do you think I would be "okay" with that?
I understand your point, and that you're explaining transgendered individuals better, but at the same time no matter what you say to me I will not accept something with a penis as a TRUE female... no matter what he or she says she is
Beyond that, It doesn't really matter because I am not going to go around looking for transgendered people to call them out on their differences or how they choose to live their life
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I agree with your last sentiment; unfortunately, the competitive community doesn't. The presence of women's tournaments forces us to make distinctions between the two genders that should not be made in an empirically equal society. As a result, the transgender issue is a natural byproduct of this division. What makes a woman is simple: genetics. What makes a woman in society: genetics, and sometimes decisions (as is the case for Scarlett). The thing to note is that this choice was never made for competitive gaming.
Summary: Gender is only an issue because of the organizations that promote gender distinctions.
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There are ample physical differences between a male and a female beyond the, ahem, reproductive organs. You can tell yourself it 'should' be defined by whatever you think is important, but the fact of the matter is, males and females are not the same, and never will be - because of biological reasons. I'm not saying a transgender female is somehow not as good as someone born female (personally, I really don't have an opinion on that), but don't make the mistake of confusing equality with being identical; if someone feels like running a tournament which is open to females, 'real' - biological females only, there is nothing wrong with that. Aren't transgender females disallowed from entering most female-only sports on similar grounds, too? Or do you feel that is also unfair?
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On April 23 2012 23:33 Salazarz wrote:
There are ample physical differences between a male and a female beyond the, ahem, reproductive organs. You can tell yourself it 'should' be defined by whatever you think is important, but the fact of the matter is, males and females are not the same, and never will be - because of biological reasons. I'm not saying a transgender female is somehow not as good as someone born female (personally, I really don't have an opinion on that), but don't make the mistake of confusing equality with being identical; if someone feels like running a tournament which is open to females, 'real' - biological females only, there is nothing wrong with that. Aren't transgender females disallowed from entering most female-only sports on similar grounds, too? Or do you feel that is also unfair?
Most "real" sports revolve around physical capabilities, which have historically favored men over women due to genetic reasons. The fact that females have never scraped the absolute upper echelons of skill (thinking TBLS or GSL champion, I guess) in SC1/2... This is still a debatable indicator of whether gender plays any physical or genetic part. The presence of gamers such as TossGirl in BW prove that it is by no means impossible to be within the top 1% of a gaming population as a female in SC1/2, but she was never the best. It's more or less impossible to prove one way or the other. In such a situation, I don't think standard sports rules should apply, or at least should apply without any doubt.
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If I 'feel' like a woman and live my life like one (what does that even mean, like, give an example) I should be allowed to join the female olympics even though I have the body of a man?
Being male or female is simply a matter of XX or XY.
I do however think that the whole drama going on atm is pretty dumb, but not because of the points listed in the OP.
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@ Th1rdEye: Yes - Biologically, sure they were born male. They can go and get the sex change - Sure they can't bear children, they can't have a period...but to be honest, I think that might be more of a blessing to them - cause its rather annoying. However they for all intense purposes ARE female.
@ Jealous: I am hoping people will open their minds and understand that some people honestly were born one way but feel a completely different way. I hope that one day they will accept individuals like Scarlett, with open arms...Instead of all of the crap that has been going on. ~ To some extent you are right, the organizations are promoting based on a certain gender...However people choose to promote based on country only tournaments - Where only one country is promoted. Sometimes they allow people to play in those tournaments, for that particular country, if they have lived in that country for x amount of time - Instead of making it for people who were both BORN and CURRENTLY reside there. The same goes for this kind of tournament. I hope you understand what I mean.
@ Salazar: No one implied that the gender was verified by proof of birth certificate. If you wish to do something like that, such as what Donald Trump does with his beauty pageants, then by all means...Do that... That is fine by me. However, once again this particular type of tournament is not open to biological females only - It is open to those who identify themselves as females and live their life as females. Regardless of how they were actually born or of how the law looks at them because of the equipment they were born with.
@ Kranten: Read my above responses to the other posters before you. Hopefully you will find your answer among those, cause you brought up something that someone else did and I don't wish to repeat myself.
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On April 23 2012 23:37 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:33 Salazarz wrote:
There are ample physical differences between a male and a female beyond the, ahem, reproductive organs. You can tell yourself it 'should' be defined by whatever you think is important, but the fact of the matter is, males and females are not the same, and never will be - because of biological reasons. I'm not saying a transgender female is somehow not as good as someone born female (personally, I really don't have an opinion on that), but don't make the mistake of confusing equality with being identical; if someone feels like running a tournament which is open to females, 'real' - biological females only, there is nothing wrong with that. Aren't transgender females disallowed from entering most female-only sports on similar grounds, too? Or do you feel that is also unfair? Most "real" sports revolve around physical capabilities, which have historically favored men over women due to genetic reasons. The fact that females have never scraped the absolute upper echelons of skill (thinking TBLS or GSL champion, I guess) in SC1/2... This is still a debatable indicator of whether gender plays any physical or genetic part. The presence of gamers such as TossGirl in BW prove that it is by no means impossible to be within the top 1% of a gaming population as a female in SC1/2, but she was never the best. It's more or less impossible to prove one way or the other. In such a situation, I don't think standard sports rules should apply, or at least should apply without any doubt.
Just because you or I don't think so, doesn't mean that whatever tournament organizers should agree with us. Also, I can absolutely see a transgender female winning a female-only tournament causing all kinds of drama and hostilities. On top of that, don't you think that it's a little strange that the person who is likely the best female player right now is a transgender individual? After all, if you consider the amount of biological females playing SC2 vs the amount of transgenders doing so, odds are gonna be pretty stacked. Maybe it's just a coincidence (and the fact that someone who has the determination to do something as complex as a sex change operation is likely quite headstrong and is like that in practice etc as well), maybe not - but either way I don't think the issue is as clear and obvious as the OP wants it to be.
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Wait how come I didn't knew about this ?
But doctors would still say the same , she still has a brain of a male . Regardless living a life of a woman .
But Koreans and well known foreigners are still gonna dominate the starcraft scene for maybe a long period of time .
Maybe some guys are just jealous that Scarlett are doing better than them .
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On April 23 2012 23:49 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:37 Jealous wrote:On April 23 2012 23:33 Salazarz wrote:
There are ample physical differences between a male and a female beyond the, ahem, reproductive organs. You can tell yourself it 'should' be defined by whatever you think is important, but the fact of the matter is, males and females are not the same, and never will be - because of biological reasons. I'm not saying a transgender female is somehow not as good as someone born female (personally, I really don't have an opinion on that), but don't make the mistake of confusing equality with being identical; if someone feels like running a tournament which is open to females, 'real' - biological females only, there is nothing wrong with that. Aren't transgender females disallowed from entering most female-only sports on similar grounds, too? Or do you feel that is also unfair? Most "real" sports revolve around physical capabilities, which have historically favored men over women due to genetic reasons. The fact that females have never scraped the absolute upper echelons of skill (thinking TBLS or GSL champion, I guess) in SC1/2... This is still a debatable indicator of whether gender plays any physical or genetic part. The presence of gamers such as TossGirl in BW prove that it is by no means impossible to be within the top 1% of a gaming population as a female in SC1/2, but she was never the best. It's more or less impossible to prove one way or the other. In such a situation, I don't think standard sports rules should apply, or at least should apply without any doubt. Just because you or I don't think so, doesn't mean that whatever tournament organizers should agree with us. Also, I can absolutely see a transgender female winning a female-only tournament causing all kinds of drama and hostilities. On top of that, don't you think that it's a little strange that the person who is likely the best female player right now is a transgender individual? After all, if you consider the amount of biological females playing SC2 vs the amount of transgenders doing so, odds are gonna be pretty stacked. Maybe it's just a coincidence (and the fact that someone who has the determination to do something as complex as a sex change operation is likely quite headstrong and is like that in practice etc as well), maybe not - but either way I don't think the issue is as clear and obvious as the OP wants it to be.
Actually, while Scarlett is good, I am not sure she would be considered the best female player. I would say she is among the top 10 best female players though. Further more I do wish to quote one thing that I read earlier today and that is the following:
"It is not particularly unfair to the other women for several reasons. The main reason is there is no actual physical advantage to being a male in starcraft. Iron Lady is not about having female genitalia, but actually about bringing together and highlighting a pretty small part of the community. If a person identifies as female, we see them as female."
^- That is part of the point I am trying to make that people don't seem to understand.
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Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?.
Girls are nicer than us. Its one of the most important realizations I've ever made 
But yes, my unjustifiably high number of posts in Scarlett fanclub makes me agree with this post : )
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I don't really understand what it means to "feel" like a woman. It's a purely social concept as far as I know, that women are this way and men are that way. I have no problem having feminine qualities as a man. Who cares? The whole masculine/feminine business is blatantly sexist.
So personally I'm very confused on what transgender even means. I don't have any transgender friends. I don't really get it. Your post really doesn't clarify that issue for me. I assume there is more to it than I'm seeing, but I don't know what that is.
I certainly don't think anything should be that exclusionary of course. If she wants me call her a girl and be treated like a girl then more power to her. There's no reason to discriminate or anything.
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On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up.
In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue.
In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list:
How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011.
How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level.
How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result.
And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark.
In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion.
THE POINT
Taking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story.
I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy.
Long Live the new Queen of Blades
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Regardless of the intentions behind this thread, it probably won't be long before it's ruined and we have to close it. Cmon TL prove me wrong!!
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I didn't want to shit up the scarlett threads so I just didn't post there, but I think it would be okay to post here.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to argue that having a big bra size, her looks, or "being delicate" dictates being a female, nor does having an expensive operation. I may be ignorant on the topic and I don't mean to offend, but to me being male or female is based upon physiology. Finally regarding her playing in female only tournaments, I don't really see a problem with it. But to be honest, as pharside states "the main reason is there is no actual physical advantage to being a male in starcraft".
Anyway thats just my thoughts. Goodluck with everything.
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I don't disagree with your views, but this looks more like a statement of your beliefs being stated as fact. The question "what makes a person a woman?" is a complicated one with many facets to it which are difficult to understand - that's the reason it's such a personal issue. Do we know what scientifically and factually makes us in love? Not that I'm aware of. But we know what it is when we feel it. But do we know what makes us have a certain color of hair and eyes? It's mostly the color of hair and eyes you were born with. The issue of sexuality lies somewhere in between, and the amount of confidence everyone seems to have in what perceptions are fair and what mentality is "right" is ridiculous.
I'm a guy, and I've never felt like not a guy - though I do have distinctly non-"manly" tendencies sometimes. I do believe it is possible other people could feel imprisoned in the wrong type of body, and I sympathize both with how horrible that would feel as well as with the ridiculous amount of unwarranted hatred such people endure.
But at the same time, pretending as though we absolutely know what defines gender, we absolutely know what constitutes identity, and many other issues that everyone seems to have such deeply certain beliefs on is not going to make things better. The hatred and misunderstanding people see on this is a symptom of larger problems like ignorance and intolerance. Replacing that with "better ignorance" and "better intolerance" isn't actually going to make it better - it's only going to make it horrible for different reasons.
Edit: To be more constructive, what I think we ought to do is to admit that we don't have damn clue what makes a woman, and just give transgendered folks the benefit of the doubt that they're not undergoing all the hardships associated with being born one gender and switching to another because they think it's fun. You can not understand the decisions someone makes with their life while still supporting their right to make those decisions with their lives. I don't understand how this (and not some misguided definition of what is "female" and what is "male") is not the actual underlying issue.
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On April 24 2012 00:06 SaintBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up. In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue. In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list: How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011. How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level. How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result. And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark. In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion. THE POINTTaking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story. I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy. Long Live the new Queen of Blades
Please do not think, that for one moment I am not saying it shouldn't be discussed. Please do not think that I am saying "do as you feel" approach either. I am simply saying that we, as a community, should try to be more understanding and more welcoming. Please understand, I do work for a lawyer part time. At one point I studied law every moment I could, with a goal to eventually end up on Supreme Court. So I completely understand what you are talking about. My problem is not with the discussion, it is with those who just straight out say that because she was born male, she has no right to be there. To me, that is wrong. ~ This blog was as much of a rant, as it was to hopefully, get people to just think about how they look at situations like this. What kind of message do we wish to send to the other transgenders in the community? There are many that people are not aware of. They are scared to let people know that they are transgender, simply because of the reaction people give. The whole point of this blog was for me to blow off some steam about how I think to many people are to quick to decide how something "should be" in their mind, based on the way someone was born. It was not meant towards those who are honestly discussing it as mature adults. This blog was mainly aimed to rant and to make people think ~ That is all >.<
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Netherlands6142 Posts
When you say
So Lets Quickly Review What Defines You As Being A "Female":
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you represent yourself.
It SHOULD be defined by what you IDENTIFY yourself as to everyone else.
do you mean these verbs to be conscious acts? (except "feel" I suppose)
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On April 24 2012 00:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 00:06 SaintBadger wrote:On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up. In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue. In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list: How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011. How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level. How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result. And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark. In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion. THE POINTTaking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story. I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy. Long Live the new Queen of Blades Please do not think, that for one moment I am not saying it shouldn't be discussed. Please do not think that I am saying "do as you feel" approach either. I am simply saying that we, as a community, should try to be more understanding and more welcoming.
I would agree with this point. I think individuals are allowed to hold whatever opinions they like on the subject of transgendered individuals, but some of the hatred and outright disrespect that Scarlett has gotten is totally absurd. Whatever one's opinion on the subject, she's still an amazing Starcraft player and deserves to be recognized as such.
Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?. This frame of mind that many of you have at this moment could end up making this such a nasty community to be a part of or it could even just hurt the goal of helping expand E-Sports. What makes her so different? So what if she was born differently! We all were born differently!
I think we need to make a distinction between those who have contrary opinion on the subject, and those who have openly disrespected her or spread hatred. If someone's personal or religious beliefs lead them to believe that biology is the ultimate determining factor in certain aspects of gender; they are well within their rights to express that opinion. The world would be supremely boring if everyone had the same set of opinions on every issue. But there's a time and a place for expressing those opinions, and there's certainly a very clear line between expressing one's views on a topic and inciting hatred of an individual because of their personal choices.
I think we also need to accept that while Scarlett may be mentally a female, there's a difference between a biological female and a transgendered individual. I've known a number of transgendered people in my life, including one ftm individual who was seriously one of the nicest and awesomest people I've ever known. I've got no issues with transgendered individuals, nor do I have any issues with their personal choices. But I have to admit, I would never consider dating or being in a romatic relationship with someone who was a MtF transgendered person. I would not be comfortable with it, plain and simple. It's not something that I can rationalize nor explain easily, it's just the way I feel about it. There is a difference between someone who is born biologically a female and someone who undergoes a transition; whether we want to admit that or not it's true. We need to make a distintion between someone who's personal beliefs dictate a different opinion on the subject and someone who is openly negative about her for who and what she is. One is okay, the other is not.
Though I think a lot of what's been thrown against Scarlett comes from people who are uncomfortable with the issue. For a lot of people, gender is something static, something that is clear and defined. When those lines are blurred, for a lot of people that distorts their entire perspective on a range of social and personal issues. It's easier to simply classify Scarlett as a male than actually accept that gender is not necessarily something clear and defined, and the entire shifting of social perspectives that comes along with that acceptance.
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On April 24 2012 01:00 Pholon wrote:When you say Show nested quote +So Lets Quickly Review What Defines You As Being A "Female":
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you represent yourself.
It SHOULD be defined by what you IDENTIFY yourself as to everyone else. do you mean these verbs to be conscious acts? (except "feel" I suppose)
Yes. In regards to how you feel and how you live your life and how you identify yourself..I think that is both a conscious and subconscious act. It is very hard to explain exactly what I meant there...My apologies for not being able to give a clear answer.
On April 24 2012 01:05 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 00:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On April 24 2012 00:06 SaintBadger wrote:On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up. In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue. In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list: How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011. How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level. How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result. And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark. In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion. THE POINTTaking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story. I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy. Long Live the new Queen of Blades Please do not think, that for one moment I am not saying it shouldn't be discussed. Please do not think that I am saying "do as you feel" approach either. I am simply saying that we, as a community, should try to be more understanding and more welcoming. I would agree with this point. I think individuals are allowed to hold whatever opinions they like on the subject of transgendered individuals, but some of the hatred and outright disrespect that Scarlett has gotten is totally absurd. Whatever one's opinion on the subject, she's still an amazing Starcraft player and deserves to be recognized as such. Show nested quote +Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?. This frame of mind that many of you have at this moment could end up making this such a nasty community to be a part of or it could even just hurt the goal of helping expand E-Sports. What makes her so different? So what if she was born differently! We all were born differently! I think we need to make a distinction between those who have contrary opinion on the subject, and those who have openly disrespected her or spread hatred. If someone's personal or religious beliefs lead them to believe that biology is the ultimate determining factor in certain aspects of gender; they are well within their rights to express that opinion. The world would be supremely boring if everyone had the same set of opinions on every issue. But there's a time and a place for expressing those opinions, and there's certainly a very clear line between expressing one's views on a topic and inciting hatred of an individual because of their personal choices. I think we also need to accept that while Scarlett may be mentally a female, there's a difference between a biological female and a transgendered individual. I've known a number of transgendered people in my life, including one ftm individual who was seriously one of the nicest and awesomest people I've ever known. I've got no issues with transgendered individuals, nor do I have any issues with their personal choices. But I have to admit, I would never consider dating or being in a romatic relationship with someone who was a MtF transgendered person. I would not be comfortable with it, plain and simple. It's not something that I can rationalize nor explain easily, it's just the way I feel about it. There is a difference between someone who is born biologically a female and someone who undergoes a transition; whether we want to admit that or not it's true. We need to make a distintion between someone who's personal beliefs dictate a different opinion on the subject and someone who is openly negative about her for who and what she is. One is okay, the other is not. Though I think a lot of what's been thrown against Scarlett comes from people who are uncomfortable with the issue. For a lot of people, gender is something static, something that is clear and defined. When those lines are blurred, for a lot of people that distorts their entire perspective on a range of social and personal issues. It's easier to simply classify Scarlett as a male than actually accept that gender is not necessarily something clear and defined, and the entire shifting of social perspectives that comes along with that acceptance.
You know what - TheToast, that is ok if you don't want to be in a romantic relationship with someone in that situation and yes, there are some body differences but my point is - If Donald Trump is now reviewing the Beauty Pageant Rules, for one of the BIGGEST WOMEN (BIOLOGICAL) ONLY things, and there is a transgender competing - Then why should it be looked down upon here? ~~~ Proof: http://jezebel.com/5899035/donald-trump-does-something-okay-for-once-reverses-trans-womans-disqualification-from-pageant
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Well heres my opinion; There are some advantages to being a male in, say ironlady, males have more Testosterone which makes you more competitive. Take that how you will. Now your philosophy of what makes a woman and what doesn't will be argued by many people. For example say Scarlett robs a bank. Just because he has the frame of a woman and repersents himself as a woman does not mean shit to the court system. He will go to MALE prison. In which all of your points are moot. Now I'm not without empathy despite having an apathetic outlook on this. I think people should let others live with whatever sexual identity they want. Tourny-wise it comes down to the admins and players of said tournament to make the decision based on the qualification. Scarlett, for example knows and accept this, he also knows that trolls are likely to run rampant. What I think are worse are the internet white knights that are feeding everything and banning/downvoting everyone that says ANYTHING about it or uses the noun "he" instead of "her". In the end it doesnt matter what one says or does, especially on the internet regarding this issue. I see it as a content of the player, and I would be more concerned about my strategies vs her/him than how they live their life at the end of the day. However being as biased to shut down other opinions that are not yours makes you just as bad as the people youre aiming this at. Let live, and drone.
User was warned for this post
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On April 24 2012 01:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:00 Pholon wrote:When you say So Lets Quickly Review What Defines You As Being A "Female":
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you represent yourself.
It SHOULD be defined by what you IDENTIFY yourself as to everyone else. do you mean these verbs to be conscious acts? (except "feel" I suppose) Yes. In regards to how you feel and how you live your life and how you identify yourself..I think that is both a conscious and subconscious act. It is very hard to explain exactly what I meant there...My apologies for not being able to give a clear answer. Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:05 TheToast wrote:On April 24 2012 00:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On April 24 2012 00:06 SaintBadger wrote:On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up. In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue. In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list: How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011. How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level. How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result. And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark. In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion. THE POINTTaking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story. I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy. Long Live the new Queen of Blades Please do not think, that for one moment I am not saying it shouldn't be discussed. Please do not think that I am saying "do as you feel" approach either. I am simply saying that we, as a community, should try to be more understanding and more welcoming. I would agree with this point. I think individuals are allowed to hold whatever opinions they like on the subject of transgendered individuals, but some of the hatred and outright disrespect that Scarlett has gotten is totally absurd. Whatever one's opinion on the subject, she's still an amazing Starcraft player and deserves to be recognized as such. Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?. This frame of mind that many of you have at this moment could end up making this such a nasty community to be a part of or it could even just hurt the goal of helping expand E-Sports. What makes her so different? So what if she was born differently! We all were born differently! I think we need to make a distinction between those who have contrary opinion on the subject, and those who have openly disrespected her or spread hatred. If someone's personal or religious beliefs lead them to believe that biology is the ultimate determining factor in certain aspects of gender; they are well within their rights to express that opinion. The world would be supremely boring if everyone had the same set of opinions on every issue. But there's a time and a place for expressing those opinions, and there's certainly a very clear line between expressing one's views on a topic and inciting hatred of an individual because of their personal choices. I think we also need to accept that while Scarlett may be mentally a female, there's a difference between a biological female and a transgendered individual. I've known a number of transgendered people in my life, including one ftm individual who was seriously one of the nicest and awesomest people I've ever known. I've got no issues with transgendered individuals, nor do I have any issues with their personal choices. But I have to admit, I would never consider dating or being in a romatic relationship with someone who was a MtF transgendered person. I would not be comfortable with it, plain and simple. It's not something that I can rationalize nor explain easily, it's just the way I feel about it. There is a difference between someone who is born biologically a female and someone who undergoes a transition; whether we want to admit that or not it's true. We need to make a distintion between someone who's personal beliefs dictate a different opinion on the subject and someone who is openly negative about her for who and what she is. One is okay, the other is not. Though I think a lot of what's been thrown against Scarlett comes from people who are uncomfortable with the issue. For a lot of people, gender is something static, something that is clear and defined. When those lines are blurred, for a lot of people that distorts their entire perspective on a range of social and personal issues. It's easier to simply classify Scarlett as a male than actually accept that gender is not necessarily something clear and defined, and the entire shifting of social perspectives that comes along with that acceptance. You know what - TheToast, that is ok if you don't want to be in a romantic relationship with someone in that situation and yes, there are some body differences but my point is - If Donald Trump is now reviewing the Beauty Pageant Rules, for one of the BIGGEST WOMEN (BIOLOGICAL) ONLY things, and there is a transgender competing - Then why should it be looked down upon here? ~~~ Proof: http://jezebel.com/5899035/donald-trump-does-something-okay-for-once-reverses-trans-womans-disqualification-from-pageant
I think you missed my point. It's not a matter of "looking down" on it. No one should be criticising Scarlett for her personal decisions or being who she is. My point is that if someone believes that biology is the primary determining factor in someone's gender--that Scarlett is different from someone who is born female--that's an opinion they have a right to express; as long as they do so respectfully and in the right place and context. (starting gender debates in an LR thread, for example, is not okay) She should still be addressed with the pronouns that she chooses, calling her a "he" or "he/she" is also not aceptable. As long as someone holds to that, I don't have an issue with them expressing their opinions on the subject; whatever they are in contrast to my own.
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So even though I have a schlong, if I use my imagination and think really hard about being a woman. I will be a woman. Give me a break. Kinda delusional in my opinion. If you have a man's body but think/feel like woman, then you are physically a man but with the mentality of a woman, I wouldnt go around calling myself a woman though... DNA says I'm physically a man, even after the operation... I don't know, maybe I try to simplify things into logical sense. I don't care though, really dont. If you want to go vanitizing go ahead.
Summary: Gender is only an issue because of the organizations that promote gender distinctions.
What organization? You mean Nature?
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On April 24 2012 01:39 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On April 24 2012 01:00 Pholon wrote:When you say So Lets Quickly Review What Defines You As Being A "Female":
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you represent yourself.
It SHOULD be defined by what you IDENTIFY yourself as to everyone else. do you mean these verbs to be conscious acts? (except "feel" I suppose) Yes. In regards to how you feel and how you live your life and how you identify yourself..I think that is both a conscious and subconscious act. It is very hard to explain exactly what I meant there...My apologies for not being able to give a clear answer. On April 24 2012 01:05 TheToast wrote:On April 24 2012 00:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On April 24 2012 00:06 SaintBadger wrote:On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up. In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue. In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list: How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011. How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level. How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result. And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark. In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion. THE POINTTaking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story. I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy. Long Live the new Queen of Blades Please do not think, that for one moment I am not saying it shouldn't be discussed. Please do not think that I am saying "do as you feel" approach either. I am simply saying that we, as a community, should try to be more understanding and more welcoming. I would agree with this point. I think individuals are allowed to hold whatever opinions they like on the subject of transgendered individuals, but some of the hatred and outright disrespect that Scarlett has gotten is totally absurd. Whatever one's opinion on the subject, she's still an amazing Starcraft player and deserves to be recognized as such. Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?. This frame of mind that many of you have at this moment could end up making this such a nasty community to be a part of or it could even just hurt the goal of helping expand E-Sports. What makes her so different? So what if she was born differently! We all were born differently! I think we need to make a distinction between those who have contrary opinion on the subject, and those who have openly disrespected her or spread hatred. If someone's personal or religious beliefs lead them to believe that biology is the ultimate determining factor in certain aspects of gender; they are well within their rights to express that opinion. The world would be supremely boring if everyone had the same set of opinions on every issue. But there's a time and a place for expressing those opinions, and there's certainly a very clear line between expressing one's views on a topic and inciting hatred of an individual because of their personal choices. I think we also need to accept that while Scarlett may be mentally a female, there's a difference between a biological female and a transgendered individual. I've known a number of transgendered people in my life, including one ftm individual who was seriously one of the nicest and awesomest people I've ever known. I've got no issues with transgendered individuals, nor do I have any issues with their personal choices. But I have to admit, I would never consider dating or being in a romatic relationship with someone who was a MtF transgendered person. I would not be comfortable with it, plain and simple. It's not something that I can rationalize nor explain easily, it's just the way I feel about it. There is a difference between someone who is born biologically a female and someone who undergoes a transition; whether we want to admit that or not it's true. We need to make a distintion between someone who's personal beliefs dictate a different opinion on the subject and someone who is openly negative about her for who and what she is. One is okay, the other is not. Though I think a lot of what's been thrown against Scarlett comes from people who are uncomfortable with the issue. For a lot of people, gender is something static, something that is clear and defined. When those lines are blurred, for a lot of people that distorts their entire perspective on a range of social and personal issues. It's easier to simply classify Scarlett as a male than actually accept that gender is not necessarily something clear and defined, and the entire shifting of social perspectives that comes along with that acceptance. You know what - TheToast, that is ok if you don't want to be in a romantic relationship with someone in that situation and yes, there are some body differences but my point is - If Donald Trump is now reviewing the Beauty Pageant Rules, for one of the BIGGEST WOMEN (BIOLOGICAL) ONLY things, and there is a transgender competing - Then why should it be looked down upon here? ~~~ Proof: http://jezebel.com/5899035/donald-trump-does-something-okay-for-once-reverses-trans-womans-disqualification-from-pageant I think you missed my point. It's not a matter of "looking down" on it. No one should be criticising Scarlett for her personal decisions or being who she is. My point is that if someone believes that biology is the primary determining factor in someone's gender--that Scarlett is different from someone who is born female--that's an opinion they have a right to express; as long as they do so respectfully and in the right place and context. (starting gender debates in an LR thread, for example, is not okay) She should still be addressed with the pronouns that she chooses, calling her a "he" or "he/she" is also not aceptable. As long as someone holds to that, I don't have an issue with them expressing their opinions on the subject; whatever they are in contrast to my own.
Oh I completely agree with you! My biggest problem with all of this - are those that call her "he" or do the "he/she" crap..And even those who look down upon her, give her crap for it in a rude way and even just sit there and refuse to be mature about the whole thing! ^^
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Show nested quote +Summary: Gender is only an issue because of the organizations that promote gender distinctions. What organization? You mean Nature?
I loled
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I agree with Tesla. I don't think it's right to judge Scarlett negatively for working towards being the person she feels she is. She's an incredible player, and seems like a very friendly person. In the end, aren't those the two qualities that matter?
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On April 24 2012 01:51 Spikeke wrote:
DNA says I'm physically a man, even after the operation...
Well, after the development of an organism, DNA's role is to act as a set of blueprints for the formation of proteins. So what if, by an artificial process, someone supresses the formation of female specific proteins like estrogine and instead supplies their body with male protiens such as testoterone? That's essentially what hormone therapy is. If DNA is all that matters, and you take it out of the equation by reversing the processes that it controls, doesn't that mean the person is then female?
You see, the issue is far more complicated than a simple black and white explanation.
-edit: sp fail
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Man I didn't know about the formal term "Transgender" until I read the news here on TL. I'm well aware of these people and their lifestyles and it doesn't bother in the slightest bit. So when I read through some of these posts and see how this subject seems so sensitive it's a real shock.
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On April 24 2012 01:38 GlintFox wrote:
Well heres my opinion; There are some advantages to being a male in, say ironlady, males have more Testosterone which makes you more competitive. Take that how you will.
Okay that's not an opinion that's a questionable assertion about reality that you can test and experiment. That has nothing to do with personal preference. Also, being more competitive would not make you better at Starcraft, it would simply make you more interested in playing.
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On April 24 2012 00:01 DoubleReed wrote:
I don't really understand what it means to "feel" like a woman. It's a purely social concept as far as I know, that women are this way and men are that way. I have no problem having feminine qualities as a man. Who cares? The whole masculine/feminine business is blatantly sexist.
So personally I'm very confused on what transgender even means. I don't have any transgender friends. I don't really get it. Your post really doesn't clarify that issue for me. I assume there is more to it than I'm seeing, but I don't know what that is.
I certainly don't think anything should be that exclusionary of course. If she wants me call her a girl and be treated like a girl then more power to her. There's no reason to discriminate or anything.
People who don't understand what being trans means always make these posts.
Even if all of a sudden "gender norms" were suddenly flopped all the way around, trans individuals would still want to be the opposite sex, because they feel as if they literally do not "fit" in their own body and that it is wrong for them. Imagine (no, really imagine) that one day you wake up as a girl, and ask yourself how much gender dysphoria you would experience. Some people don't attach any sort of identity to being either a guy or a gal and would be fine with this scenario, because it doesn't matter to them, but some people do to varying degrees, and to grossly simplify it because I don't want to spend forever explaining this concept to people who don't care to research it themselves, it's like reaching down and trying to find a dick you think you should have, but then all you do is discover every time it's not there, or it's like being absolutely disgusted with your dick because it shouldn't be there in the first place.
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People who don't understand what being trans means always make these posts.
Did you miss the line where I said "I don't even know what transgender means"?
So what if I imagine such an instance and don't experience any gender dysphoria? What do I do then? The description you give afterward has little weight. But I have heard that description before. Maybe I'll look into it later.
The real issue though is that transgendered are treated like crap a lot of the time and that's completely unacceptable.
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On April 24 2012 03:55 DoubleReed wrote:Did you miss the line where I said "I don't even know what transgender means"? So what if I imagine such an instance and don't experience any gender dysphoria? What do I do then? The description you give afterward has little weight. But I have heard that description before. Maybe I'll look into it later. The real issue though is that transgendered are treated like crap a lot of the time and that's completely unacceptable.
I was using you as an example since a ton of people say the same thing, that it's dependent on the society and the gender norms that are drilled into our heads, that it's sexist, when it has less to do with "gender norms" or "behavior" or whatever and more to do with dysphoria and feeling highly uncomfortable in your own skin. If you don't think you'd be at all bothered by waking up as the opposite sex one day, then as I've said that's fine, that part of yourself is not as important to you, but that's not the same for other people, and you should recognize that, and yes, if you're interested in educating yourself on the subject instead of simply saying, "I don't understand," please go look into descriptions of experiences by trans people themselves. They are everywhere on the internet.
Yes, trans people are treated like crap everywhere. They are treated like crap even in a lot of gay/lesbian/bi circles. (Kind of like how bisexuals were treated like crap by the LG circle for a long time too, but trans people get it even worse in most cases.) Truth is, if you are entirely cis, then you won't ever fully understand what being trans means, because it is outside of your experience, but the least you can do is educate yourself about the subject.
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On April 24 2012 03:55 DoubleReed wrote:So what if I imagine such an instance and don't experience any gender dysphoria? What do I do then?
Then you do like I do: admit you don't understand it, ignore the people posting that it is absolutely imperative that you must understand how it feels, and treat those who live with this condition with civility. We can talk all we want, but at the end of the day, if you don't experience the feeling, referring to that feeling a thousand different ways does nothing.
Like I posted above, if you've never been in love before, the actions of someone who is might look crazy. But love is real and we don't medicate people and tell them to ignore it. And we certainly don't hate them for it.
On April 24 2012 04:14 babylon wrote:
the least you can do is educate yourself about the subject.
The least you can do is approach people who are transgendered with civility and compassion. I don't have to research what skin pigmentation to be able to appreciate people of other races, so I don't see why I'd have to research gender dysphoria to appreciate transgendered people.
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On April 24 2012 00:01 DoubleReed wrote:
I don't really understand what it means to "feel" like a woman. It's a purely social concept as far as I know, that women are this way and men are that way. I have no problem having feminine qualities as a man. Who cares? The whole masculine/feminine business is blatantly sexist.
So personally I'm very confused on what transgender even means. I don't have any transgender friends. I don't really get it. Your post really doesn't clarify that issue for me. I assume there is more to it than I'm seeing, but I don't know what that is.
To people who aren't trans, it must feel like being a certain gender doesn't have a feel to it, and yes, it's a lot like breathing in that sense. Being able to breathe doesn't make you happy, but not being able to is suffocating.
Trans people just want to escape that "suffocation" or gender dysphoria that causes more or less severe depression, anxiety, panic attacks, insomnia, stomachaches and whatnot else (the symptoms vary from individual to individual) due to not being able to identify with whom they see in the mirror, with their voice, with their expected gender roles, due to how others treat them and due to not being able to freely be who they are, often not even within the walls of their own house.
Trans people really just want to finally live in peace.
As for those who do not want to be in a relationship with someone who's trans, that's fine, you don't have to.
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On April 24 2012 00:01 DoubleReed wrote:
I don't really understand what it means to "feel" like a woman. It's a purely social concept as far as I know, that women are this way and men are that way. I have no problem having feminine qualities as a man. Who cares?
I agree absolutely with this section of DoubleReed's post. Would a transgendered person know what it feels like to be both male and female, like sort of a mature onset gender confusion? If so, I can see how an individual could go from feeling male to feeling female or visa-versa. If not, when you're born feeling "confused" about gender, what is the the baseline against which an individual feels like they were born the wrong sex?
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Babylon, if my behavior towards transgendered individuals does not change after researching the idea, why would it be so imperative that I look it up? Why is "I don't understand" a bad answer, when I may never understand?
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I don't agree with most of OP's points at all basically. Besides that, if anyone involved is fine with it, it should be definitely fine for those who have nothing to do with the topic. This means, I have no problem with her playing in a female sc league. Just as I don't have a problem with gay marriage. It's not my toast so why would I feel offended? Right, there is no reason.
But to clarify: She is indeed a male person, because your genetics make you a male or a woman. Your feelings have nothing to do with your gender.
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On April 24 2012 04:50 DoubleReed wrote:
Babylon, if my behavior towards transgendered individuals does not change after researching the idea, why would it be so imperative that I look it up? Why is "I don't understand" a bad answer, when I may never understand?
a.) Because learning new shit is good, and hearing/reading new perspectives is good.
b.) Because you say you don't understand then proceed to expound upon the subject and offer your opinion on it after you have already admitted you don't know wtf you are talking about. It's like me saying, "Oh, I don't play LoL, but LET ME TELL YOU WHAT I THINK ABOUT THE GAME ANYWAYS." You can see how this can be mildly irritating, esp. since this behavior is so unavoidable.
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On April 24 2012 01:38 GlintFox wrote:
Well heres my opinion; There are some advantages to being a male in, say ironlady, males have more Testosterone which makes you more competitive. Take that how you will. Now your philosophy of what makes a woman and what doesn't will be argued by many people. For example say Scarlett robs a bank. Just because he has the frame of a woman and repersents himself as a woman does not mean shit to the court system. He will go to MALE prison. In which all of your points are moot. Now I'm not without empathy despite having an apathetic outlook on this. I think people should let others live with whatever sexual identity they want. Tourny-wise it comes down to the admins and players of said tournament to make the decision based on the qualification. Scarlett, for example knows and accept this, he also knows that trolls are likely to run rampant. What I think are worse are the internet white knights that are feeding everything and banning/downvoting everyone that says ANYTHING about it or uses the noun "he" instead of "her". In the end it doesnt matter what one says or does, especially on the internet regarding this issue. I see it as a content of the player, and I would be more concerned about my strategies vs her/him than how they live their life at the end of the day. However being as biased to shut down other opinions that are not yours makes you just as bad as the people youre aiming this at. Let live, and drone.
User was warned for this post
Okay, let's get some fucking facts straight:
- Females can be competitive, and have competitive attitudes. In fact, I would say we're just as competitive as guys.
- Not everyone who defends Scarlett, or a female over the internet is a "White Knight". There are guys who (gasp!) stick up for other guys, and get called "dickriders". That's wrong.
- Teamliquid.net and it's moderators reserve the right to warn/ban people who deliberately ignore posted warnings not troll progamers, and Scarlett is a progamer.
- Nobody is "shutting down other opinions". Everyone who got warned/banned still has their opinion, but TL just doesn't want that posted here, because it's needlessly abrasive.
- Gender issues can be confusing, so let me make this simple: Scarlett is a girl, the end.
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On April 24 2012 05:08 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:38 GlintFox wrote:
Well heres my opinion; There are some advantages to being a male in, say ironlady, males have more Testosterone which makes you more competitive. Take that how you will. Now your philosophy of what makes a woman and what doesn't will be argued by many people. For example say Scarlett robs a bank. Just because he has the frame of a woman and repersents himself as a woman does not mean shit to the court system. He will go to MALE prison. In which all of your points are moot. Now I'm not without empathy despite having an apathetic outlook on this. I think people should let others live with whatever sexual identity they want. Tourny-wise it comes down to the admins and players of said tournament to make the decision based on the qualification. Scarlett, for example knows and accept this, he also knows that trolls are likely to run rampant. What I think are worse are the internet white knights that are feeding everything and banning/downvoting everyone that says ANYTHING about it or uses the noun "he" instead of "her". In the end it doesnt matter what one says or does, especially on the internet regarding this issue. I see it as a content of the player, and I would be more concerned about my strategies vs her/him than how they live their life at the end of the day. However being as biased to shut down other opinions that are not yours makes you just as bad as the people youre aiming this at. Let live, and drone.
User was warned for this post Okay, let's get some fucking facts straight: - Females can be competitive, and have competitive attitudes. In fact, I would say we're just as competitive as guys. - Not everyone who defends Scarlett, or a female over the internet is a "White Knight". There are guys who (gasp!) stick up for other guys, and get called "dickriders". That's wrong. - Teamliquid.net and it's moderators reserve the right to warn/ban people who deliberately ignore posted warnings not troll progamers, and Scarlett is a progamer. - Nobody is "shutting down other opinions". Everyone who got warned/banned still has their opinion, but TL just doesn't want that posted here, because it's needlessly abrasive. - Gender issues can be confusing, so let me make this simple: Scarlett is a girl, the end.
Excellent post <3
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United States22883 Posts
On April 24 2012 01:38 GlintFox wrote: males have more Testosterone which makes you more competitive.
User was warned for this post
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080522075940.htm
"Our findings perfectly parallel what we have observed for power motivation and testosterone in men," Schultheiss said. "In men, power motivation is associated with heightened levels of testosterone, particularly after a contest victory. In women, estrogen appears to be the critical hormone for power motivation."
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I think the decision to include mtf transgender people in female-only tournaments should be made by the tourney organizer, and that we, as a community, shouldn't complain about whatever decision they make for their tournament (but still show support or not with viewership). I don't see it as much more than restricting by league or any other factor, it's just the audience that the tournament organizers want to attract.
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Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything.
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On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything.
you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder
"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment."
also wtf, i didn't even read your post that closely, but thinks like a male, that's the complete opposite of reality, how would she think like a male if she felt like she was supposed to be female, that would lead for her to be more likely to think female then male
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On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment."
Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =]
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On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =]
every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap
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On April 24 2012 06:07 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =] every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap
Can be considered...doesn't mean they have it...so again, you're still assuming that Scarlett does have it..and whether she does or doesn't we don't know. Also, I could say something about your use of the word ignorance and how it was poorly done and call you ignorant yourself but...meh. Also..how is it uninformed? Do you know how exactly the brain works? Do you have a peak interest in the human brain and how it works? Are you a specialist on the human brain?
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On April 24 2012 00:12 Plexa wrote:
Regardless of the intentions behind this thread, it probably won't be long before it's ruined and we have to close it. Cmon TL prove me wrong!!
Plexa even if we took a time machine back to 2006. I don't think it's possible. ;o
On April 23 2012 23:33 Jealous wrote:
Summary: Gender is only an issue because of the organizations that promote gender distinctions.
Here; here.
In all honesty, there is no reason why a fe-male gamer cannot compete with the boys regardless of their genital. In fact, the female brain actually has a lot going for it when it comes to multitasking.
Obliterate social conventions and norms.
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On April 24 2012 06:12 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:07 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =] every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap Can be considered...doesn't mean they have it...so again, you're still assuming that Scarlett does have it..and whether she does or doesn't we don't know. Also, I could say something about your use of the word ignorance and how it was poorly done and call you ignorant yourself but...meh. Also..how is it uninformed? Do you know how exactly the brain works? Do you have a peak interest in the human brain and how it works? Are you a specialist on the human brain?
gender dysphoria unhappiness with one's biological sex or its usual gender role, with the desire for the body and role of the opposite sex.
gender dysphoria
n.
A persistent unease with having the physical characteristics of one's gender, accompanied by strong identification with the opposite gender and a desire to live as or to become a member of the opposite gender.
how do these definitions leave any room for your bullshit semantic arguments except in the cases of money and because it might be fun
As to my interest, I originally wanted to go to school to be a doctor, psychiatrist specifically, focusing on gender identity issues in teenagers...
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Hey Fantacy, saying "I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases" is sexist! You have to demonstrate evidence to make such a claim! There's no reason to believe that!
On April 24 2012 05:06 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 04:50 DoubleReed wrote:
Babylon, if my behavior towards transgendered individuals does not change after researching the idea, why would it be so imperative that I look it up? Why is "I don't understand" a bad answer, when I may never understand? a.) Because learning new shit is good, and hearing/reading new perspectives is good. b.) Because you say you don't understand then proceed to expound upon the subject and offer your opinion on it after you have already admitted you don't know wtf you are talking about. It's like me saying, "Oh, I don't play LoL, but LET ME TELL YOU WHAT I THINK ABOUT THE GAME ANYWAYS." You can see how this can be mildly irritating, esp. since this behavior is so unavoidable.
a) Okeedokee.
b) So you did explain some things so I don't mean this with too much vitriol, but keep in mind it's also irritating to come into a topic with an open-mind, fully-admitting ignorance, and be treated with disdain and derision. I don't really know what conclusion I came to in my initial post that irritated you so, because I really didn't give any opinions other than "I don't really get it."
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On April 24 2012 06:18 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:12 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:07 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =] every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap Can be considered...doesn't mean they have it...so again, you're still assuming that Scarlett does have it..and whether she does or doesn't we don't know. Also, I could say something about your use of the word ignorance and how it was poorly done and call you ignorant yourself but...meh. Also..how is it uninformed? Do you know how exactly the brain works? Do you have a peak interest in the human brain and how it works? Are you a specialist on the human brain? gender dysphoria unhappiness with one's biological sex or its usual gender role, with the desire for the body and role of the opposite sex. gender dysphoria n. A persistent unease with having the physical characteristics of one's gender, accompanied by strong identification with the opposite gender and a desire to live as or to become a member of the opposite gender. how do these definitions leave any room for your bullshit semantic arguments except in the cases of money and because it might be fun As to my interest, I originally wanted to go to school to be a doctor, psychiatrist specifically, focusing on gender identity issues in teenagers...
Doesn't say anything with how the male mind works differently from the female mind.....
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On April 24 2012 06:22 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:18 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:12 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:07 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =] every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap Can be considered...doesn't mean they have it...so again, you're still assuming that Scarlett does have it..and whether she does or doesn't we don't know. Also, I could say something about your use of the word ignorance and how it was poorly done and call you ignorant yourself but...meh. Also..how is it uninformed? Do you know how exactly the brain works? Do you have a peak interest in the human brain and how it works? Are you a specialist on the human brain? gender dysphoria unhappiness with one's biological sex or its usual gender role, with the desire for the body and role of the opposite sex. gender dysphoria n. A persistent unease with having the physical characteristics of one's gender, accompanied by strong identification with the opposite gender and a desire to live as or to become a member of the opposite gender. how do these definitions leave any room for your bullshit semantic arguments except in the cases of money and because it might be fun As to my interest, I originally wanted to go to school to be a doctor, psychiatrist specifically, focusing on gender identity issues in teenagers... Doesn't say anything with how the male mind works differently from the female mind.....
well the mind will change under hormone therapy, so your point is ridiculous, you're arguing the crap out of semantics on a specific case in which none of us can possible know the actual situation
you just don't like being proved wrong, and incredibly sexist, i agree with the guy above, your argument is the same to the effect that women can't lead in combat or can't be good generals, and there is absolutely no proof of that, yes male and female brains are different, and are more suited to different things, but things such as this, no evidence whatsoever
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On April 24 2012 06:29 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:22 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:18 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:12 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:07 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =] every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap Can be considered...doesn't mean they have it...so again, you're still assuming that Scarlett does have it..and whether she does or doesn't we don't know. Also, I could say something about your use of the word ignorance and how it was poorly done and call you ignorant yourself but...meh. Also..how is it uninformed? Do you know how exactly the brain works? Do you have a peak interest in the human brain and how it works? Are you a specialist on the human brain? gender dysphoria unhappiness with one's biological sex or its usual gender role, with the desire for the body and role of the opposite sex. gender dysphoria n. A persistent unease with having the physical characteristics of one's gender, accompanied by strong identification with the opposite gender and a desire to live as or to become a member of the opposite gender. how do these definitions leave any room for your bullshit semantic arguments except in the cases of money and because it might be fun As to my interest, I originally wanted to go to school to be a doctor, psychiatrist specifically, focusing on gender identity issues in teenagers... Doesn't say anything with how the male mind works differently from the female mind..... well the mind will change under hormone therapy, so your point is ridiculous, you're arguing the crap out of semantics on a specific case in which none of us can possible know the actual situation you just don't like being proved wrong, and incredibly sexist, i agree with the guy above, your argument is the same to the effect that women can't lead in combat or can't be good generals, and there is absolutely no proof of that, yes male and female brains are different, and are more suited to different things, but things such as this, no evidence whatsoever
I'm stating what is generally true in Starcraft and I'm notb eing sexist or anything -_-, you're the one trying to prove me wrong with stuff that isn't really proven in Scarlett nor related to what I'm stating.
No I don't mind being proven wrong...but only if you actually prove me wrong, which you have failed to do so far. I am nowhere near saying women can't lead in combat, be good generals etc. you are taking what I am saying out of context. As for evidence...look at the Starcraft scene buddy...how many female pro's are there compared to male pros? This is what I'm getting at, again I'm not being sexist, I'd like to see more female pro's..but this is what I'm going off of, you're just being an idiot and trying to prove me wrong with useless unrelated crap to what I'm saying....now...if you want to provide some actual evidence that supports your argument related to this...please feel free too..otherwise have a good day sir =]
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On April 24 2012 06:37 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:29 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:22 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:18 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:12 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:07 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =] every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap Can be considered...doesn't mean they have it...so again, you're still assuming that Scarlett does have it..and whether she does or doesn't we don't know. Also, I could say something about your use of the word ignorance and how it was poorly done and call you ignorant yourself but...meh. Also..how is it uninformed? Do you know how exactly the brain works? Do you have a peak interest in the human brain and how it works? Are you a specialist on the human brain? gender dysphoria unhappiness with one's biological sex or its usual gender role, with the desire for the body and role of the opposite sex. gender dysphoria n. A persistent unease with having the physical characteristics of one's gender, accompanied by strong identification with the opposite gender and a desire to live as or to become a member of the opposite gender. how do these definitions leave any room for your bullshit semantic arguments except in the cases of money and because it might be fun As to my interest, I originally wanted to go to school to be a doctor, psychiatrist specifically, focusing on gender identity issues in teenagers... Doesn't say anything with how the male mind works differently from the female mind..... well the mind will change under hormone therapy, so your point is ridiculous, you're arguing the crap out of semantics on a specific case in which none of us can possible know the actual situation you just don't like being proved wrong, and incredibly sexist, i agree with the guy above, your argument is the same to the effect that women can't lead in combat or can't be good generals, and there is absolutely no proof of that, yes male and female brains are different, and are more suited to different things, but things such as this, no evidence whatsoever I'm stating what is generally true in Starcraft and I'm notb eing sexist or anything -_-, you're the one trying to prove me wrong with stuff that isn't really proven in Scarlett nor related to what I'm stating. No I don't mind being proven wrong...but only if you actually prove me wrong, which you have failed to do so far. I am nowhere near saying women can't lead in combat, be good generals etc. you are taking what I am saying out of context. As for evidence...look at the Starcraft scene buddy...how many female pro's are there compared to male pros? This is what I'm getting at, again I'm not being sexist, I'd like to see more female pro's..but this is what I'm going off of, you're just being an idiot and trying to prove me wrong with useless unrelated crap to what I'm saying....now...if you want to provide some actual evidence that supports your argument related to this...please feel free too..otherwise have a good day sir =]
Actually, no. The proof is on you to make such a claim. There are very few women in the starcraft community at all, which may show a lack of interest by girls, but not show a lack of competence.
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On April 24 2012 06:37 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:29 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:22 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:18 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:12 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:07 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =] every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap Can be considered...doesn't mean they have it...so again, you're still assuming that Scarlett does have it..and whether she does or doesn't we don't know. Also, I could say something about your use of the word ignorance and how it was poorly done and call you ignorant yourself but...meh. Also..how is it uninformed? Do you know how exactly the brain works? Do you have a peak interest in the human brain and how it works? Are you a specialist on the human brain? gender dysphoria unhappiness with one's biological sex or its usual gender role, with the desire for the body and role of the opposite sex. gender dysphoria n. A persistent unease with having the physical characteristics of one's gender, accompanied by strong identification with the opposite gender and a desire to live as or to become a member of the opposite gender. how do these definitions leave any room for your bullshit semantic arguments except in the cases of money and because it might be fun As to my interest, I originally wanted to go to school to be a doctor, psychiatrist specifically, focusing on gender identity issues in teenagers... Doesn't say anything with how the male mind works differently from the female mind..... well the mind will change under hormone therapy, so your point is ridiculous, you're arguing the crap out of semantics on a specific case in which none of us can possible know the actual situation you just don't like being proved wrong, and incredibly sexist, i agree with the guy above, your argument is the same to the effect that women can't lead in combat or can't be good generals, and there is absolutely no proof of that, yes male and female brains are different, and are more suited to different things, but things such as this, no evidence whatsoever I'm stating what is generally true in Starcraft and I'm notb eing sexist or anything -_-, you're the one trying to prove me wrong with stuff that isn't really proven in Scarlett nor related to what I'm stating. No I don't mind being proven wrong...but only if you actually prove me wrong, which you have failed to do so far. I am nowhere near saying women can't lead in combat, be good generals etc. you are taking what I am saying out of context. As for evidence...look at the Starcraft scene buddy...how many female pro's are there compared to male pros? This is what I'm getting at, again I'm not being sexist, I'd like to see more female pro's..but this is what I'm going off of, you're just being an idiot and trying to prove me wrong with useless unrelated crap to what I'm saying....now...if you want to provide some actual evidence that supports your argument related to this...please feel free too..otherwise have a good day sir =]
nurture not nature, i was given a gaming console at 4, sega gen, those were good times, if i were a girl, i know for a fact i would not have been given one at 4, you can see this trend in how we as a society have raised the genders and therefore the number of hardcore female gamers is a lot lower then that of males, which can be carried over to to every element of esport style discussions, there is no evidence whatsoever that females are inherently worse at this game
scarlett is an interesting situation due to being born physically male and probably being raised male for a while, hence this might make a difference in that scenario, however as I don't know her personal situation I can't comment aside from what i just said
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On April 24 2012 06:44 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:37 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:29 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:22 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:18 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:12 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:07 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:41 fAnTaCy wrote:
Okay, so I've been kind of waiting for the chance to share my opinion on the matter and sorry Tes I'm using your blog for it.
My view on the whole transgendered thing is while you may look like a female, talk like a female and act like a female, these are things that are irrelevant in Starcraft. What matters more in Starcraft is the mental side of things, which a lot of people are overlooking in this situation, everyone is too concered with the physical aspect. The mental aspect of Starcraft is a bigger part of what matters. Now before I say this, I know there are people are going to read it and be like "OMG YOU ARE A SEXIST ASSHOLE" or "YOU'RE SAYING GIRLS ARE DUMB" etc etc...no this is not my point at all. There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently. Now I say most cases because there are pro's like Tossgirl and Flo who can compete with the male population on an equal level, and they can easily beat most players in their respective games. There are other cases too but again, it's a rare case so far in Starcraft.
This relates to the Scarlett thing because while yes, Scarlett is considered a female for the way she acts/talks/appears, Scarlett still has a male mind and thinks like a male and nothing can change that unless we can somehow give Scarlett a female mind, which then she wouldn't be Scarlett anymore lol. This is a game where phsyical appearance doesn't matter, this is a game where how you think/how quickly you can think/react matters, and again I'm not being sexist/elitest/or anything, but the male mind is better suited for this in most cases, not all cases.
I agree with what someone said before me that, the tournament organizer can decide whether or not the transgendered person should be allowed in their tournament, but this is just something to think about when considering everything on transgendered people in the Starcraft community for tournanments and everything. you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =] every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap Can be considered...doesn't mean they have it...so again, you're still assuming that Scarlett does have it..and whether she does or doesn't we don't know. Also, I could say something about your use of the word ignorance and how it was poorly done and call you ignorant yourself but...meh. Also..how is it uninformed? Do you know how exactly the brain works? Do you have a peak interest in the human brain and how it works? Are you a specialist on the human brain? gender dysphoria unhappiness with one's biological sex or its usual gender role, with the desire for the body and role of the opposite sex. gender dysphoria n. A persistent unease with having the physical characteristics of one's gender, accompanied by strong identification with the opposite gender and a desire to live as or to become a member of the opposite gender. how do these definitions leave any room for your bullshit semantic arguments except in the cases of money and because it might be fun As to my interest, I originally wanted to go to school to be a doctor, psychiatrist specifically, focusing on gender identity issues in teenagers... Doesn't say anything with how the male mind works differently from the female mind..... well the mind will change under hormone therapy, so your point is ridiculous, you're arguing the crap out of semantics on a specific case in which none of us can possible know the actual situation you just don't like being proved wrong, and incredibly sexist, i agree with the guy above, your argument is the same to the effect that women can't lead in combat or can't be good generals, and there is absolutely no proof of that, yes male and female brains are different, and are more suited to different things, but things such as this, no evidence whatsoever I'm stating what is generally true in Starcraft and I'm notb eing sexist or anything -_-, you're the one trying to prove me wrong with stuff that isn't really proven in Scarlett nor related to what I'm stating. No I don't mind being proven wrong...but only if you actually prove me wrong, which you have failed to do so far. I am nowhere near saying women can't lead in combat, be good generals etc. you are taking what I am saying out of context. As for evidence...look at the Starcraft scene buddy...how many female pro's are there compared to male pros? This is what I'm getting at, again I'm not being sexist, I'd like to see more female pro's..but this is what I'm going off of, you're just being an idiot and trying to prove me wrong with useless unrelated crap to what I'm saying....now...if you want to provide some actual evidence that supports your argument related to this...please feel free too..otherwise have a good day sir =] Actually, no. The proof is on you to make such a claim. There are very few women in the starcraft community at all, which may show a lack of interest by girls, but not show a lack of competence.
Wait at what point did I say that women gave a lack in competence anywhere in any of my posts?
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On April 23 2012 23:27 Th1rdEye wrote:
Just sayign .. if they dont have a vagina they arent a female.. It's biologically impossible to reproduce that way when you need a male and female..
You can call them a female.. but hey...i dont know any "women" i've been with that dont have the above body part.. for instance, if I ended up dating a transgendered individual who thought they were a woman, but really weren't... do you think I would be "okay" with that?
I understand your point, and that you're explaining transgendered individuals better, but at the same time no matter what you say to me I will not accept something with a penis as a TRUE female... no matter what he or she says she is
Beyond that, It doesn't really matter because I am not going to go around looking for transgendered people to call them out on their differences or how they choose to live their life
It takes a truly intellectual individual to identify a person solely by their genitals. Can you also define a person's future by their penis size?
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On April 24 2012 06:52 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:44 DoubleReed wrote:On April 24 2012 06:37 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:29 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:22 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:18 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 06:12 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 06:07 Coramoor wrote:On April 24 2012 05:49 fAnTaCy wrote:On April 24 2012 05:44 Coramoor wrote:[quote] you should educate yourself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder"Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgender individuals have shown that some transgender individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment." Let me point out the key word in that sentence...the word is "some". That word means that not every single transgendered person has this, this means a portion of the transgendered population has GID. Now, before you tell someone to educate yourself, you should also do the same, and you should also learn to post better and not be a douchebag =]. What I'm getting at for the "educate yourself as well" part, it means you should also figure out if Scarlett has GID or not, because untill someone knows (if this has been figured out before then okay, you're right, Scarlett has that and my point is wrong) then we can only assume that...thank you =] every transgender person can be considered to have gender dysphoria, well i guess those who don't switch for a lark or money as happens in some asian countries. Yes not every transgender person has the opposite brain structure to their biolgoical body however you're still spouting ignorance and your first post was ignorance. learn something about this before you continue to post completely uninformed crap Can be considered...doesn't mean they have it...so again, you're still assuming that Scarlett does have it..and whether she does or doesn't we don't know. Also, I could say something about your use of the word ignorance and how it was poorly done and call you ignorant yourself but...meh. Also..how is it uninformed? Do you know how exactly the brain works? Do you have a peak interest in the human brain and how it works? Are you a specialist on the human brain? gender dysphoria unhappiness with one's biological sex or its usual gender role, with the desire for the body and role of the opposite sex. gender dysphoria n. A persistent unease with having the physical characteristics of one's gender, accompanied by strong identification with the opposite gender and a desire to live as or to become a member of the opposite gender. how do these definitions leave any room for your bullshit semantic arguments except in the cases of money and because it might be fun As to my interest, I originally wanted to go to school to be a doctor, psychiatrist specifically, focusing on gender identity issues in teenagers... Doesn't say anything with how the male mind works differently from the female mind..... well the mind will change under hormone therapy, so your point is ridiculous, you're arguing the crap out of semantics on a specific case in which none of us can possible know the actual situation you just don't like being proved wrong, and incredibly sexist, i agree with the guy above, your argument is the same to the effect that women can't lead in combat or can't be good generals, and there is absolutely no proof of that, yes male and female brains are different, and are more suited to different things, but things such as this, no evidence whatsoever I'm stating what is generally true in Starcraft and I'm notb eing sexist or anything -_-, you're the one trying to prove me wrong with stuff that isn't really proven in Scarlett nor related to what I'm stating. No I don't mind being proven wrong...but only if you actually prove me wrong, which you have failed to do so far. I am nowhere near saying women can't lead in combat, be good generals etc. you are taking what I am saying out of context. As for evidence...look at the Starcraft scene buddy...how many female pro's are there compared to male pros? This is what I'm getting at, again I'm not being sexist, I'd like to see more female pro's..but this is what I'm going off of, you're just being an idiot and trying to prove me wrong with useless unrelated crap to what I'm saying....now...if you want to provide some actual evidence that supports your argument related to this...please feel free too..otherwise have a good day sir =] Actually, no. The proof is on you to make such a claim. There are very few women in the starcraft community at all, which may show a lack of interest by girls, but not show a lack of competence. Wait at what point did I say that women gave a lack in competence anywhere in any of my posts?
you specifically say the male brain is more suited to sc2, you're just being incredibly semantical for no reaason
here is your quote
"There is a reason why for the most part Starcraft 2 is dominated by the male population, and it's not the physical part, it's the mental part, and how our brains work differently."
you haven't provided any proof or context for that statement aside from baseless assertions
as i said in my last post, nurture is an important element in the discussion which you are completely ignoring
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I have strong opinions that concern this matter but for now I'll just leave a small one. To me there is a big difference between a female and a woman likewise with male and a man. I applaud Scarlett for doing what she's doing and while I'm not necessarily a fan but I'll be cheering for her :D:D
I tend to hate these sensitive topics because well, they're sensitive and it's a bit tricky to discuss them. I never really cared but I think it's time to educate myself on all of this since I'm so uninformed 
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On April 23 2012 23:27 Th1rdEye wrote:
Just sayign .. if they dont have a vagina they arent a female.. It's biologically impossible to reproduce that way when you need a male and female..
You can call them a female.. but hey...i dont know any "women" i've been with that dont have the above body part.. for instance, if I ended up dating a transgendered individual who thought they were a woman, but really weren't... do you think I would be "okay" with that?
I understand your point, and that you're explaining transgendered individuals better, but at the same time no matter what you say to me I will not accept something with a penis as a TRUE female... no matter what he or she says she is
Sometimes little people are mistaken for being young.
I mean, they're small right? Just like children?
Then they tell you they're an adult.
But wait..... they're small, so I guess I'll just call him/her a child!
Maybe a bit of a dumbed down example, but this is basically the logic you're following.
If someone in a male body identifies themselves as female, they are female.
No one cares if you'd be okay with dating a transgendered person, nor does it have any relevance.
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I dont think Scarlett should be allowed in female only tournaments.
What if I was a decent SC player but not quite good enough to compete with the best and I get this brilliant idea to put on a wig, turn my web cam on and then sign up for a female only tourny?
Who is to say that I dont feel like a female in every way and that I am only doing it to get famous and win cool cash at the expense of the "real" female gamers?
Ofc this example is a bit extreme but can you possibly say without a certain of doubt that something like this wont happen in the future or that Scarlett isn´t in fact exploiting your good will and tolerance to get what he/she wants?
Maybe you can but in this case I´d rather be safe than sorry and Scarlett has, after all, proven good enough to compete with the best.
Its not like Scarlett lose out on a lot by not being able to compete in the female tourneys, which is actually what this all boils down to. It seems like people are forgetting that.
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On April 24 2012 08:24 DaCruise wrote:
I dont think Scarlett should be allowed in female only tournaments.
What if I was a decent SC player but not quite good enough to compete with the best and I get this brilliant idea to put on a wig, turn my web cam on and then sign up for a female only tourny?
Who is to say that I dont feel like a female in every way and that I am only doing it to get famous and win cool cash at the expense of the "real" female gamers?
Ofc this example is a bit extreme but can you possibly say without a certain of doubt that something like this wont happen in the future or that Scarlett isn´t in fact exploiting your good will and tolerance to get what he/she wants?
Maybe you can but in this case I´d rather be safe than sorry and Scarlett has, after all, proven good enough to compete with the best.
Its not like Scarlett lose out on a lot by not being able to compete in the female tourneys, which is actually what this all boils down to. It seems like people are forgetting that.
Okay, I'm going to take away all of your rights, because some other jackass might abuse those rights.
You can't drive, because someone else might run people over with a car.
You can't have a religion, because someone else might declare a holy war.
You can't say what you want, because someone else might say something discriminatory.
Please use your brain.
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On April 24 2012 08:24 DaCruise wrote:
I dont think Scarlett should be allowed in female only tournaments.
What if I was a decent SC player but not quite good enough to compete with the best and I get this brilliant idea to put on a wig, turn my web cam on and then sign up for a female only tourny?
Who is to say that I dont feel like a female in every way and that I am only doing it to get famous and win cool cash at the expense of the "real" female gamers?
Ofc this example is a bit extreme but can you possibly say without a certain of doubt that something like this wont happen in the future or that Scarlett isn´t in fact exploiting your good will and tolerance to get what he/she wants?
Maybe you can but in this case I´d rather be safe than sorry and Scarlett has, after all, proven good enough to compete with the best.
Its not like Scarlett lose out on a lot by not being able to compete in the female tourneys, which is actually what this all boils down to. It seems like people are forgetting that.
You know, you really should err on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt. We're talking about trying to bring people into the community and encouraging as many people as possible to participate. "Better safe than sorry" would be directly harmful to the community. We should not be exclusionary in any way.
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Perhaps a better question is, why are there female only tournaments at all? I'm not aware of any male only tournaments. If the purpose is to get more girls interested in the game then fine, but any reason other than that is sexist, IMHO.
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On April 24 2012 08:37 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:24 DaCruise wrote:
I dont think Scarlett should be allowed in female only tournaments.
What if I was a decent SC player but not quite good enough to compete with the best and I get this brilliant idea to put on a wig, turn my web cam on and then sign up for a female only tourny?
Who is to say that I dont feel like a female in every way and that I am only doing it to get famous and win cool cash at the expense of the "real" female gamers?
Ofc this example is a bit extreme but can you possibly say without a certain of doubt that something like this wont happen in the future or that Scarlett isn´t in fact exploiting your good will and tolerance to get what he/she wants?
Maybe you can but in this case I´d rather be safe than sorry and Scarlett has, after all, proven good enough to compete with the best.
Its not like Scarlett lose out on a lot by not being able to compete in the female tourneys, which is actually what this all boils down to. It seems like people are forgetting that.
Okay, I'm going to take away all of your rights, because some other jackass might abuse those rights. You can't drive, because someone else might run people over with a car. You can't have a religion, because someone else might declare a holy war. You can't say what you want, because someone else might say something discriminatory. Please use your brain.
But we cant make rules and laws where no one can drive, have religion and such or society would crash. However in the Scarlett case we can easily make a rule with minimal consequenses for the involved parties.
There. I used my brain.
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On April 24 2012 08:24 DaCruise wrote:
Its not like Scarlett lose out on a lot by not being able to compete in the female tourneys, which is actually what this all boils down to. It seems like people are forgetting that.
I dislike this idea, tournies for women are additionals, rather segregation, by playing in iron ladies players like Aurora are not disqualifying themselves from playing any other tourny, and just because Scarlett can go deep in IPL4 doesn't mean that anyone should take away her privilege of playing is ladies only leagues.
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Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS.
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On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS.
Again, there is no evidence to demonstrate any of this. Girls are a stark minority in Starcraft, so they are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to reaching the top by sheer numbers. Even if that were biological in nature (which you have not demonstrated), that could be a lack of interest in the game rather than a lack of competence (which is more likely anyway). You are also assuming that Scarlett has a male brain, and she's transgender ffs.
The point is, you just assumed like five different things and it's bullshit.
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On April 24 2012 08:43 zany_001 wrote:
Perhaps a better question is, why are there female only tournaments at all? I'm not aware of any male only tournaments. If the purpose is to get more girls interested in the game then fine, but any reason other than that is sexist, IMHO.
Look at every other tournament ever.
While the only men allowed rule may not be explicit, and is certainly not a decision on behalf of the tournament organisers, we as a community need to recognise that Starcraft as a community is incredibly male dominated, especially on the player end of the spectrum, and that the starcraft community, and the wider gaming community needs to more be to appealing and less stigmatised to women.
Besides groups like girls of starcraft, Gay TeamLiquid and ESL iron lady will continue exist as long as there is demand for comfortable spaces for minority groups to interact and hold tournaments, and there nothing you can do about it.
On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS.
In addition to Doublereed:
Have you considered the influence of social factors?
As some one who was born male, I have been able to play video games more or less all my life without rebuke, since even jocks play Call of Duty and Fifa now.
For girls, it simply isn't the same. I know lots of women who play video games, but game playing is stigmatised by society at large, and by other women. I've women openly confide in me how much they loved playing Skyrim or WoW, but have done it in such hushed tones that no one but me could possibly hear. In short playing games carries a stigma for women, more or less the same to the one that video gaming used to carry men: That people who play video games are unattractive, unsociable, smelly weirdos.
So lets be honest with ourselves, if this sort of stigma still exists in western liberal societies, I can only speculate the stigma that is attached to gaming as a woman in Korea.
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my faith in humanity sinks deeper...
also gender and sex are different...ugh. not even worth discussing.
plexa should have closed this.
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On April 24 2012 08:55 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS. Again, there is no evidence to demonstrate any of this. Girls are a stark minority in Starcraft, so they are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to reaching the top by sheer numbers. Even if that were biological in nature (which you have not demonstrated), that could be a lack of interest in the game rather than a lack of competence (which is more likely anyway). You are also assuming that Scarlett has a male brain, and she's transgender ffs. The point is, you just assumed like five different things and it's bullshit.
You assume I care what you say enough to go and link something you could easily google. Also, BW, you know, that thing that created eSports? It had female only professional leagues, tournaments, etcetera. So you can take one assumption out of there, because it's been tested that female gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up.
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On April 24 2012 09:13 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:55 DoubleReed wrote:On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS. Again, there is no evidence to demonstrate any of this. Girls are a stark minority in Starcraft, so they are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to reaching the top by sheer numbers. Even if that were biological in nature (which you have not demonstrated), that could be a lack of interest in the game rather than a lack of competence (which is more likely anyway). You are also assuming that Scarlett has a male brain, and she's transgender ffs. The point is, you just assumed like five different things and it's bullshit. You assume I care what you say enough to go and link something you could easily google. Also, BW, you know, that thing that created eSports? It had female only professional leagues, tournaments, etcetera. So you can take one assumption out of there, because it's been tested that female gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up.
Its been tested that foreign gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up with Korean gamers, so ergo Koreans must be genetically superior.
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My freshman year a college I met a woman who was very manly. She was the dominant one in her relationship with her girlfriend. When I saw him again sophomore year, he was in the process of undergoing gender reassignment therapy. Yes, this shocked me since I wasn't aware of his decision. But this didn't make me think that he was any less of a person. It was his decision to live the way he does. Who am I to judge him and tell him he's wrong. Maybe I'm the one who doesn't understand gender. My point is that just because someone is different and chooses a different lifestyle doesn't mean they're wrong. Regardless of my own views on gender, I am in no position to judge or say anything. I guess my point is that people shouldn't be so quick to hate. Do your own research and make your own conclusions. Knee jerk reactions and hateful instant un-acceptance shouldn't be the norm.
Plus, can't we be happy that a foreigner came out of no where and smashed some Koreans? I like to think above all else, we value great skill and gameplay in SC2 on TL.
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On April 24 2012 08:45 DaCruise wrote:
But we cant make rules and laws where no one can drive, have religion and such or society would crash. However in the Scarlett case we can easily make a rule with minimal consequenses for the involved parties.
There. I used my brain.
Not very well, apparently, since you can't seem to fathom any alternative to banning a player because someone else might break the rules.
Like, you know, asking for legal documents that state their gender...like Iron Lady already does.
Or, you know, assume that no one would be stupid enough to publicly try to scam an organization for $100 that you probably won't even get.
But honestly, I'm not even taking you very seriously, because the fact is you're just grasping at some random straws to get Scarlett excluded.
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On April 24 2012 10:11 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:45 DaCruise wrote:
But we cant make rules and laws where no one can drive, have religion and such or society would crash. However in the Scarlett case we can easily make a rule with minimal consequenses for the involved parties.
There. I used my brain.
Not very well, apparently, since you can't seem to fathom any alternative to banning a player because someone else might break the rules. Like, you know, asking for legal documents that state their gender...like Iron Lady already does. Or, you know, assume that no one would be stupid enough to publicly try to scam an organization for $100 that you probably won't even get. But honestly, I'm not even taking you very seriously, because the fact is you're just grasping at some random straws to get Scarlett excluded.
Well I could just state the obvious that it is unfair to have a guy competing in a girl tournament but that is apperently not a valid arguement.
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Transgenders have a different physical brain from normal people of the same gender. Also, genitalia is not always a reliable way of determining gender. Sometimes people can have both sex organs, part of one of them, nonfunctioning organs of a different gender, etc. etc. Also, gender identity is a biological component of the human brain. As a cherry on top, many transgenders seek to physically imitate the other gender as well.
So, to recap, transgenders have a fundamentally different brain more suited to being the opposite gender, genitalia does NOT define gender and, as a cherry on top, transgenders often seek to physically imitate the other gender as well. What does that mean in regards to a transgender's gender? Well, if you plug your ears and say "Whatever gender he/she was born as!" you are pretty wrong.
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On April 24 2012 10:33 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Transgenders have a different physical brain from normal people of the same gender. Also, genitalia is not always a reliable way of determining gender. Sometimes people can have both sex organs, part of one of them, nonfunctioning organs of a different gender, etc. etc. Also, gender identity is a biological component of the human brain. As a cherry on top, many transgenders seek to physically imitate the other gender as well.
So, to recap, transgenders have a fundamentally different brain more suited to being the opposite gender, genitalia does NOT define gender and, as a cherry on top, transgenders often seek to physically imitate the other gender as well. What does that mean in regards to a transgender's gender? Well, if you plug your ears and say "Whatever gender he/she was born as!" you are pretty wrong.
I think acquiring the appropriate genitalia is key, however, most teens who are transgender often don't have access to the genitals they want. But life is like a MMO quest! You level up, get gold, and eventually, buy the genitals you've always dreamed of.
Being born with different genitals than your brain wants is just playing Life on Hard Mode.
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I still haven't seen a single argument in this thread that would explain how does WANTING to be something actually defy biology and MAKE you that. It's unfortunate for those affected perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that no matter how much you would want to be a girl, and no matter how many surgeries you go through, you're never actually going to be the same as a biological female. Not better or worse - just DIFFERENT. Furthermore, pretty much everyone here agrees that if someone wants to view and treat a born female and a transgender female as different things (such as not wanting to be in a relationship with a transgender purely because they are such), then that's completely fine. But, if you accept that there IS a difference between the two (see above), then why does it bother you that a tournament organizer sees this difference also, and acts on it? It doesn't really matter if YOU think these differences shouldn't affect their ability to play Starcraft - as many people mentioned, there isn't even any proof that one's gender affects their ability to play Starcraft - but if someone wants to run a female-only tournament, that's their right. Likewise if someone wants to run a biological female-only tournament, they are more than entitled to do so; and expecting them to specify that this tournament is for BIOLOGICAL females only, or go to some lengths to explain why is it such, or starting some controversy about how this or that should or should not be allowed isn't 'helping the scene to be more accepting' or whatever. If anything, it's just going to annoy people and stir up useless drama.
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On April 24 2012 09:21 Kerotan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:13 Game wrote:On April 24 2012 08:55 DoubleReed wrote:On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS. Again, there is no evidence to demonstrate any of this. Girls are a stark minority in Starcraft, so they are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to reaching the top by sheer numbers. Even if that were biological in nature (which you have not demonstrated), that could be a lack of interest in the game rather than a lack of competence (which is more likely anyway). You are also assuming that Scarlett has a male brain, and she's transgender ffs. The point is, you just assumed like five different things and it's bullshit. You assume I care what you say enough to go and link something you could easily google. Also, BW, you know, that thing that created eSports? It had female only professional leagues, tournaments, etcetera. So you can take one assumption out of there, because it's been tested that female gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up. Its been tested that foreign gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up with Korean gamers, so ergo Koreans must be genetically superior.
Uhm..what? No that just makes no sense.....Koreans just have a better infrastructure for practicing than the forefingers, even then there are a few foreigners that can compete with the Koreans (Stephano, Nani, HuK, ThorZain)
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On April 24 2012 11:06 fAnTaCy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:21 Kerotan wrote:On April 24 2012 09:13 Game wrote:On April 24 2012 08:55 DoubleReed wrote:On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS. Again, there is no evidence to demonstrate any of this. Girls are a stark minority in Starcraft, so they are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to reaching the top by sheer numbers. Even if that were biological in nature (which you have not demonstrated), that could be a lack of interest in the game rather than a lack of competence (which is more likely anyway). You are also assuming that Scarlett has a male brain, and she's transgender ffs. The point is, you just assumed like five different things and it's bullshit. You assume I care what you say enough to go and link something you could easily google. Also, BW, you know, that thing that created eSports? It had female only professional leagues, tournaments, etcetera. So you can take one assumption out of there, because it's been tested that female gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up. Its been tested that foreign gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up with Korean gamers, so ergo Koreans must be genetically superior. Uhm..what? No that just makes no sense.....Koreans just have a better infrastructure for practicing than the forefingers, even then there are a few foreigners that can compete with the Koreans (Stephano, Nani, HuK, ThorZain)
This my point, especially with the allusions that game was making to BW. In BW we had plenty of foreigner players, none of which could beat any top foreigner any day of the week.
You reasoned out their inability to play at the same level because of a lack of infrastructure, rather than genetics.
Game did the reverse and reasoned that women where unable to play at the same level of Korean BW players because of genetics.
What I would contest is that none of here know enough about the ladies leagues of Korean BW, and the infrastructure that pertains to them. You know that ladies MSL existed, but do you know how many players entered? do you know who they practised with, how much support they got?
Not to mention this, Do you think more men or more women played Brood War casually at its peak? I'm gonna reckon more men, and by a very large margin.
In essence, I think we should stop drawing on the experiences of women in Korean BW when we know so little about how the scene worked, basing conclusions on results posted, otherwise I could do the say for non-koreans and demonstrate that the only bo3's that a non-korean could take where off some scrub on Estro or Stx.
Throwing our hands up and going! "Genetics!" is the easy and wrong answer, gender inequality in video games is albeit simplisticly, about social stigma at a grassroots level.
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On April 24 2012 10:58 Salazarz wrote:
I still haven't seen a single argument in this thread that would explain how does WANTING to be something actually defy biology and MAKE you that. It's unfortunate for those affected perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that no matter how much you would want to be a girl, and no matter how many surgeries you go through, you're never actually going to be the same as a biological female. Not better or worse - just DIFFERENT. Furthermore, pretty much everyone here agrees that if someone wants to view and treat a born female and a transgender female as different things (such as not wanting to be in a relationship with a transgender purely because they are such), then that's completely fine. But, if you accept that there IS a difference between the two (see above), then why does it bother you that a tournament organizer sees this difference also, and acts on it? It doesn't really matter if YOU think these differences shouldn't affect their ability to play Starcraft - as many people mentioned, there isn't even any proof that one's gender affects their ability to play Starcraft - but if someone wants to run a female-only tournament, that's their right. Likewise if someone wants to run a biological female-only tournament, they are more than entitled to do so; and expecting them to specify that this tournament is for BIOLOGICAL females only, or go to some lengths to explain why is it such, or starting some controversy about how this or that should or should not be allowed isn't 'helping the scene to be more accepting' or whatever. If anything, it's just going to annoy people and stir up useless drama.
Why would being accepting of people stir up useless drama? I totally don't understand how you got to your conclusion. Where's the controversy of accepting transgendered females into a female tournament? The whole point of female-only tournaments is getting women more involved in the scene in the first place. It's all about accepting people.
And no, I don't necessarily accept that females and transgendered females should be treated differently. Sexual preference is not even nearly enough to suggest anything of the sort. People have all sorts of arbitrary sexual preferences. That means nothing.
On April 24 2012 09:13 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:55 DoubleReed wrote:On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS. Again, there is no evidence to demonstrate any of this. Girls are a stark minority in Starcraft, so they are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to reaching the top by sheer numbers. Even if that were biological in nature (which you have not demonstrated), that could be a lack of interest in the game rather than a lack of competence (which is more likely anyway). You are also assuming that Scarlett has a male brain, and she's transgender ffs. The point is, you just assumed like five different things and it's bullshit. You assume I care what you say enough to go and link something you could easily google. Also, BW, you know, that thing that created eSports? It had female only professional leagues, tournaments, etcetera. So you can take one assumption out of there, because it's been tested that female gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up.
Okay, so you can show certain things are biological in nature, sure. Women and men have different brains and such. But your claims make much more specific claims about women's competence levels at certain tasks, which are simply absurd. They have not been proven and they are blatantly false anyway.
Really, and have all factors been taken out of testing of female gamers in Starcraft? Have you dismantled all the social and cultural issues? Have you made sure of their practice routines? Have you given them the same support as the male teams? Has the numbers advantage been taken away? "It's been tested that female gamers in Starcraft can genuinely not keep up" is one of the dumbest, stupidest things I have heard. There are so many possibilities beyond biology that could cause correlation in a single game in a single culture. Come on man. You're not even trying.
I'm sorry, but the world doesn't work on "common sense." It works in counter-intuitive ways among all the sciences. I don't care about your anecdotes or your pseudoscience. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's dangerous to assume that the world is overly simplistic because you can fall into an "affective death spiral", where all positive evidence you notice from your life are used to justify your views and all negative evidence is ignored.
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On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote:
Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS.
Tossgirl beat [NC]Yellow, FreeMura, Reach, and Flash. If you were to say "Oh, well, she sucks now.", so does Nal_Ra, Boxer, Reach, July, and a lot of other old-school players. "But silly Nina, Tossgirl never even qualified for a Starleague, therefore your argument is invalid." and yeah, that's true. Making it past the qualifiers is tough. Think about how talented Sea[Shield] was a couple years ago. He never could make it past a ro32, but still was able to beat Jaedong (When Jaedong was still good) and beat any top-tier proleague player.
But basically, Tossgirl is about as feminine as you can get, and she's still talented. Not just talented, though, but talented enough to beat Yellow at the peak of his career.
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I understand your point. But I also beat YellOw. I'm white. Not to mention, she trained in progaming houses for around 7 years, there's no way she wasn't bound to take key wins off of people whether they were in their prime or simply up and comers at that point and time. It's a pretty moot point. Being a progamer for 5+ years and having 2 notable wins isn't exactly flattering to your skill. But if you want to argue that Tossgirl was indeed a top tier progamer, have at it.
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I think it comes down to whether or not males have a biological advantage at SC2 over females.
It's likely they don't, and the domination of males is simply do to them being a vast majority of serious gamers. That said, I feel males might have an advantage in some areas like reflexes, bigger hands, and stamina (to practice) so it might not be a completely moot point. The female only leagues are all fairly small prize pools anyway though, and it should be up to the organizers, so there doesn't seem to be an issue with Scarlett competing if the organizers don't mind.
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On April 24 2012 08:43 zany_001 wrote:
Perhaps a better question is, why are there female only tournaments at all? I'm not aware of any male only tournaments. If the purpose is to get more girls interested in the game then fine, but any reason other than that is sexist, IMHO.
1.) Female tournaments are to encourage the growth of females being involved. It is something that is needed at the moment.
Reading the thread usually helps.. :x
On April 24 2012 05:53 krndandaman wrote:
Also, I really don't like the 'argument' where people say that you are what you identify yourselves as. If I thought I was black but I was actually born asian am I black? Did you consider Michael Jackson white?
I think you miss the point that gender != sex. While gender and sex may be the same for most people it's not necessary true for everyone. A bit simplified:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kIWo5.jpg)
So gender is purely about identifying yourself.
While you can influence/change your sex (at least to a certain degree as Tesla pointed out) as far as I know you don't have a possibility to change orientation or gender via treatment. Ask some Brits, they lost one of their brightest minds by trying to change his orientation with hormone treatment.
What's confusing for me is that mostly male people are questioning/complaining that she can participate in female only tournaments while the female community seems to be cool/okay with it.
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http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html
Using the above link as my source, Scarlett is a person with the sex of male and the gender of feminine. Scarlett is and will forever be male, as that body is the only constant as a persons mind can change. What if she no longer desires to have the body of a female? She wouldn't be the first one. Would Scarlett's female tournament wins become null?
I think most people from what I have read in this thread, want Scarlett come across as what Scarlett actually is, a feminine male, which according to the source above, is what Scarlett actually is.
So we have established that Scarlett is a feminine male.
Next, we have to define what a female tournament is. This is actually where the opinions diverge.
The ones arguing for Scarlett to be allowed to participate in female only tournaments must agree that for entrance into a female only tournament, ones gender must be feminine regardless of the sex.
A few problem arise from that train of thought. Think of the gender roles in your country. Now make a pretend country where the gender roles are swapped. For clarification lets say F1 = feminine in your country, M1 = masculine in your country, F2 is feminine in the opposite country, and M2 for masculine in the opposite country. So we established that F1 = M2 and M1 = F2. If your country held a F1 tournament, would the M2 be allowed to participate? You would have to answer yes. If you asked the M2 if they were masculine, they would say yes, although you would say that they are not masculine. Obviously this would cause tension and be in general somewhat confusing.
Secondly, what is feminine is and always be loosely defined because it is based of the culture of which you are a part of. Using loosely defined definitions of what is feminine deteriorated the integrity of the tournament. What is feminine today might not be feminine tomorrow. If female tournament means people with the gender of feminine can play, while it would be full of females today, it could be full of males down the road.
Thirdly, because feminine is hard to define, its also impossible to measure. What is the amount of feminine needed to enter a tournament? Do you need to go shopping every weekend? Carry a purse? Wear a dress? According to the 'Scarlett should be able to participate' crowd, Scarlett meets the requirement of what it means to be feminine. But what are those requirements? A person who identifies as feminine doesnt have to do 100% feminine things, but what is enough to say that "You can enter, you are feminine enough." What if Wladimir Klitschko decides to be feminine? Would you let him into female boxing? You would have to say yes.
Having tournaments based on sex, do not run into these issues.
Males of your country will always be males of another. Same with females.
What a male is today will always be a male of tomorrow.
Sex is also measurable in a true false sense. You are either male or female, baring few rare unfortunate occurrences.
+ Show Spoiler +This also ignores that fact that both sides of the argument keep calling the tournaments as female, which implies that it is based on sex, not gender.
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I am fine with ppl feeling they are in a wrong body, a person can run around however he wants, as a female or male, gay or not i don´t care since in normal life it does´t hurt anyone. In sports cases i think different and everyone should stay on it´s side.
This discussion is not a problem of Scarlett, it´s the orgaproblem of the Iron Lady tournament.
If you think there is no different between male and female in SC2, do not start a tournament called "Lady" and add ppl by your own opinion, males, females whatever.
You just can't think or talk away the biological truth.
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Lockitupv2, as someone else in the thread corrected me, transgender does not refer to simply feminine characteristics for a man. There are plenty of feminine men who are not at all transgender. So clearly what you're saying makes no sense. Please do not make sweeping conclusions about something that you even admit that you have little knowledge of.
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On April 25 2012 05:14 DoubleReed wrote:
Lockitupv2, as someone else in the thread corrected me, transgender does not refer to simply feminine characteristics for a man. There are plenty of feminine men who are not at all transgender. So clearly what you're saying makes no sense. Please do not make sweeping conclusions about something that you even admit that you have little knowledge of.
According to http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms#transgender, a "female with a masculine gender identity" would be considered a transgender person but also a person "who identifies as a man" is as well, which is Scarlett's case, but reversed.
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This needs to be at the beginning of every thread about transgender issues, so that people actually understand the science behind this, and can realize that gender and sex are not the same thing.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 03 2012 19:44 Iyerbeth wrote:I promised myself I wasn't going to post in this thread, but here I am. I'm not going to address anyone particularly, but I'll just go with my unusual optimism of assuming they really mean well but just ultimately don't know what they're talking about. I'm aware that to do so I'd have to ignore the content of many of their posts, but I'm going to do so anyway. I'm sure this discussion will carry on with people seeing the length of my post and deciding that my well reasoned, and cited arguements aren't really worth reading if it'll challenge their preconceptions either way sadly. First, and most importantly, biological sex and gender identity are completely different things. First I'll provide evidence for this statement, and then show how it immediatly invalidates many of the "he's a man" comments. Gender identity is something that pretty much everyone has, when someone says they're male or female they don't first check their physical attributes, they know who they are. If a man was disembodied somehow his gender wouldn't suddenly become "not applicable" he'd still be a man, albeit a maybe distressed and confused one. If we were to then place that person's mind in to a naturally female body, he wouldn't suddenly be female, who he was as a core identity would still remain. If you accept this as accurate then you have to accept one of two possibilities, either there is some physical component in the brain that results in gender identity, or that gender identity is somehow inate and unchanging part of a person's identity. If you accept either of those, then unless nature were infallible, you would have to accept the possibility of transsexuals who literally were men or women, as they expressed. First to site some studies to prove that there are in fact physical brain differences in transsexuals specifically relating to expected gender norms. The following are a few examples, which between them don't actually all agree with the causes, but all provide evidence and examples that their are physical masculine or feminine differences in the brains of trans people. White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging studyThe microstructure of white matter in male to female transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatmentRegional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualismGiven then that there are physical differences in the brains of trans people, who are you to decide based on what they looked like at birth that their gender identity is what you think it is? If we are to ignore the physical evidence and instead decide that gender identity is an unchanging aspect of identity that does not have a physical basis in the brain, then how can you ignore the pyschologists who have observed transseualism exists and therefore that those people are men or women? Or does the identity of the person you're talking to or about take a back seat to what you think they look like? No matter which way you slice it, it is not simply a matter of deciding to change gender, with our current understanding of science that's impossible, but rather conforming to one's gender. For all of this to be the case, it necessarily follows that gender and sex are not the same thing. Well ok, you might say, they're still biologically male (to use trans women as the example for a moment, since most people seem to have less issue with trans men for some reason) and are unable to reproduce and so it's my right to hold the view that I can deride them and refer to them as "he". First to the biologically male part, as addressed in the previous section they're no biologically male, there are physical brain differences in the identity of trans people. But you of course mean genetics. There are frankly so many different pseudo scientific points made that it would be almost impossible for me to address them all so instead I'm going to make several points which refute most of them. Many women who're also born genetically female (cis gendered) are unfortunately unable to reproduce, sometimes as the result of genetics, and other times as the result of organs not forming correctly in a fetus. There are cis women who have testicles inside them, there are some who're born without a vagina, others still who're even born with a penis. Are we to tell these women that they are infact men? There are XX women, XY women, and XXY women, are you going to argue that we should screen everyone for their genetic make up before deciding on their sex (and also deciding that their sex and gender are identical by the power vested in you)? Along with the above, you have no idea on the genetic make up of trans women. There are studies to suggest that they have, on average, a higher reaction to androgen. This would mean that in the womb, these individuals would be far more likely to take on male sexual appearance, regardless of their genetic history. They could in fact be perfectly healthy boys, and maybe even men too but the fact remains that nature makes mistakes. Further, you also have no idea at the chromosome make up of these women either and even if they were all XY, that would only prove once again that sex and gender are different things. Finally, even if were to grant your unfounded opinions as fact and that we should call people based on their genitals as babys, then to what end are we insulting people? What reasons are there for seperating people, talking to their genitals rather than to the person as they are? Where does this leave trans people in your society? Should we ban the surgical options? There are already a minimum of 2 years of pyschological reviews before any surgery which picks out many of those who're not in fact transsexuals, do you think 10 years would help?* Is being a specific gender in fact a mental illness? The suicide rate amongst transsexuals is already far higher than in the rest of society, and it is proven that transitioning reduces that risk dramatically.** * Harry Benjamin Standards of Care** Psychosocial characteristics of applicants evaluated for surgical gender reassignmentI ask again then, what benefit is there in you deciding, in the face of the evidence, that everyone must be as you are - with the gender identity and biological sex being in allignment? It serves no practical, health, safety, or legal benefit and insulting people should hardly be seen as a positive (and when you intentionally call any woman "he" it is insulting). Transsexuals exist, it sucks, but it's not your place to tell them who they are what they must be. it is not your place to insult them or to decide that all women must be defined as sex objects. Your personal comfort on a matter has no bearing on the actual gender identity of other human beings. That being said, what I'm about to say will shock many people, she should have been removed from that competition. On signing up she signed a contract saying she was "Naturally born female" and it's clear what the organisers meant by that. At that point the competition should have been challenged, but she signed the contract in bad faith and that was not the right course of action.
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On April 25 2012 05:45 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 05:14 DoubleReed wrote:
Lockitupv2, as someone else in the thread corrected me, transgender does not refer to simply feminine characteristics for a man. There are plenty of feminine men who are not at all transgender. So clearly what you're saying makes no sense. Please do not make sweeping conclusions about something that you even admit that you have little knowledge of. According to http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms#transgender, a "female with a masculine gender identity" would be considered a transgender person but also a person "who identifies as a man" is as well, which is Scarlett's case, but reversed.
So, essentially, you associate "gender" with "gender stereotypes"?
Transgenderism has nothing to do with men wanting to wear purses and women wanting to play football.
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I know I called my school friend a she...But that situation has always been very weird. I've known her since we were both children, in elementary school. I remember when she was feminine. However, I knew her in middle school too...When she decided to act more like a he and live her life more as a male. He also went on and started having all the social websites list that profile information under that of a guy. He continued to act male...even in High school, however...After high school, she has started acting more like a she. She now has her social websites list her as female, not male... It is a very odd and weird situation. It is also a little hard for me to think of her as a guy, when I've known her most of my life and I've seen her go back and forth between male and female over the years. Currently she still acts quite a bit like a guy but much more like a female than in earlier years and she now lists herself as a female...So for now, I call her "her"...Not "he". I hope that makes better sense. I am not sure if she has truly identified herself as one gender over the other or if she is just gender confused. However, I respect my friend, none the less and I do my best to refer to her by whatever gender she is telling the rest of the world that she is.
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Well, males and females think differently, so they do play and approach the game a bit differently. Their ability to do specific tasks is different, so I do not agree it's completely fair to have a transgender in the competition. I don't think the brain functions the same, transgenders may think very similar, but there's still some difference.
That being said, I don't know if I support it or not. I'd need more detailed information on that, and on every specific person/case to actually make a objective decision, but since that's not really possible, I guess we have to leave everything in the hands of the tournament admins/organizers.
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On April 25 2012 07:22 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 05:45 Lockitupv2 wrote:On April 25 2012 05:14 DoubleReed wrote:
Lockitupv2, as someone else in the thread corrected me, transgender does not refer to simply feminine characteristics for a man. There are plenty of feminine men who are not at all transgender. So clearly what you're saying makes no sense. Please do not make sweeping conclusions about something that you even admit that you have little knowledge of. According to http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms#transgender, a "female with a masculine gender identity" would be considered a transgender person but also a person "who identifies as a man" is as well, which is Scarlett's case, but reversed. So, essentially, you associate "gender" with "gender stereotypes"? Transgenderism has nothing to do with men wanting to wear purses and women wanting to play football.
I dont make the definitions but I play by them. You want to change the definition of transgendered take it up with them.
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On April 25 2012 14:46 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 07:22 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 25 2012 05:45 Lockitupv2 wrote:On April 25 2012 05:14 DoubleReed wrote:
Lockitupv2, as someone else in the thread corrected me, transgender does not refer to simply feminine characteristics for a man. There are plenty of feminine men who are not at all transgender. So clearly what you're saying makes no sense. Please do not make sweeping conclusions about something that you even admit that you have little knowledge of. According to http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms#transgender, a "female with a masculine gender identity" would be considered a transgender person but also a person "who identifies as a man" is as well, which is Scarlett's case, but reversed. So, essentially, you associate "gender" with "gender stereotypes"? Transgenderism has nothing to do with men wanting to wear purses and women wanting to play football. I dont make the definitions but I play by them. You want to change the definition of transgendered take it up with them.
So, when we're talking about one definition you make all your conclusions and arguments about another definition? Wow that sounds like a very intelligent discussion.
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On April 25 2012 20:01 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 14:46 Lockitupv2 wrote:On April 25 2012 07:22 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 25 2012 05:45 Lockitupv2 wrote:On April 25 2012 05:14 DoubleReed wrote:
Lockitupv2, as someone else in the thread corrected me, transgender does not refer to simply feminine characteristics for a man. There are plenty of feminine men who are not at all transgender. So clearly what you're saying makes no sense. Please do not make sweeping conclusions about something that you even admit that you have little knowledge of. According to http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms#transgender, a "female with a masculine gender identity" would be considered a transgender person but also a person "who identifies as a man" is as well, which is Scarlett's case, but reversed. So, essentially, you associate "gender" with "gender stereotypes"? Transgenderism has nothing to do with men wanting to wear purses and women wanting to play football. I dont make the definitions but I play by them. You want to change the definition of transgendered take it up with them. So, when we're talking about one definition you make all your conclusions and arguments about another definition? Wow that sounds like a very intelligent discussion.
What are you talking about? I use the same definition through out.
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On April 25 2012 22:05 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 20:01 DoubleReed wrote:On April 25 2012 14:46 Lockitupv2 wrote:On April 25 2012 07:22 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 25 2012 05:45 Lockitupv2 wrote:On April 25 2012 05:14 DoubleReed wrote:
Lockitupv2, as someone else in the thread corrected me, transgender does not refer to simply feminine characteristics for a man. There are plenty of feminine men who are not at all transgender. So clearly what you're saying makes no sense. Please do not make sweeping conclusions about something that you even admit that you have little knowledge of. According to http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms#transgender, a "female with a masculine gender identity" would be considered a transgender person but also a person "who identifies as a man" is as well, which is Scarlett's case, but reversed. So, essentially, you associate "gender" with "gender stereotypes"? Transgenderism has nothing to do with men wanting to wear purses and women wanting to play football. I dont make the definitions but I play by them. You want to change the definition of transgendered take it up with them. So, when we're talking about one definition you make all your conclusions and arguments about another definition? Wow that sounds like a very intelligent discussion. What are you talking about? I use the same definition through out.
That response doesn't make sense so I think you misread me. Anyway, we're not talking about feminine men. We're not talking about women engineers, CEOs, and managers. You are the only one.
Those people are not the people who identify as transgender. I don't care what a dictionary says. A dictionary is about historical and social usage. It's not the arbiter of the English language. A dictionary is not an argument for anything.
You have no argument because you're just talking about something else.
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On April 25 2012 14:46 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 07:22 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 25 2012 05:45 Lockitupv2 wrote:On April 25 2012 05:14 DoubleReed wrote:
Lockitupv2, as someone else in the thread corrected me, transgender does not refer to simply feminine characteristics for a man. There are plenty of feminine men who are not at all transgender. So clearly what you're saying makes no sense. Please do not make sweeping conclusions about something that you even admit that you have little knowledge of. According to http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms#transgender, a "female with a masculine gender identity" would be considered a transgender person but also a person "who identifies as a man" is as well, which is Scarlett's case, but reversed. So, essentially, you associate "gender" with "gender stereotypes"? Transgenderism has nothing to do with men wanting to wear purses and women wanting to play football. I dont make the definitions but I play by them. You want to change the definition of transgendered take it up with them.
You're not even remotely "playing by the definition". Either out of ignorance or poor reading comprehension, you've just chosen to interpret "masculine gender identity" as machoism, and "feminine gender identity" as staying in the kitchen.
You're simply wrong.
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The distinction between a male and a female is pretty damn clear. X and Y chromosomes.
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![[image loading]](http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Genderbread-2.1.jpg)
I think I should post this every time gender and sexuality is discussed on TL.
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The most important thing is:
GoSC (as Tesla said) and the tournament organizers dont have problem with this specific transgender playing in the tournament.
It's their community / tournament and they accepted Scarlett. The end.
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I think you did not address people's main concern : genetically, men have a better reaction time and the brain has a different process of decision making.
Most of your other points are okay, I have no doubt that Scarlett identifies herself as a female, but it does not take her biological advantage at Starcraft away.
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On April 26 2012 12:35 endy wrote:
I think you did not address people's main concern : genetically, men have a better reaction time and the brain has a different process of decision making.
Most of your other points are okay, I have no doubt that Scarlett identifies herself as a female, but it does not take her biological advantage at Starcraft away.
This is getting absurd. Unless you have done a scientific study, you can't prove shit about one sex being better at something than others. Yes, men have been shown to have better reaction time, but women also have been shown to be better at multitasking. Men have been shown to have better spacial awareness, but yet women get into far less car accidents. Starcraft is not just about reaction time; hell it's not just about mechanics. There's a whole load of other dimensions to the game: decision making, strategy choices, and game knowledge just to name a few. Would you like to make some ridiculous blanket statements on how the sexes compare in deciding to rush or go for a mid game timing attack? Where's the research on that?
There's no way in hell that anyone can make any firm deductions that one biological sex would be better at this game than another. There aren't enough female gamers to make a solid comparison, and there are other issues such as the fact that men in general tend to play more video games than females and therefore may have more experience with games. Seriously, there's just no support what so ever for any of these statements about which gender is "better" at the game, and anyone making statements like these are just spewing bullshit.
Honestly, when I read stuff like this, it looks to me like nothing more than an attempt to discredit Scarlett. I don't know what the issue is, whether people like you have an issue with transgendered individuals or whether you simply don't like the idea of women being able to beat men in games and thus need to find a way to minimize Scarlett's skill and accomplishments. To me, this just looks like discrimination, plain and simple.
I'm more than okay with people expressing their opinions on the subject of transgender issues, and I'm even okay with people who have moral/religious/personal issues with the idea of someone changing their bodies. But you have no right to belittle Scarlett's accomplishments with this unfounded nonsense.
-edit: to clarify, this wasn't aimed specifically at you, but at everyone in this thread and the others that have made this ridiculous assertion.
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On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
I want to mention that I do have many transgender friends
ok
User was warned for this post
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I think the competitive SC2 scene isn't really the right place to argue about politics and issues like this. SC2 as an esport/competitive game is focused around the players, and within the game all players are either terran, protoss or zerg. As long as a player's simple wishes are respected (asking to be be referred to as she) and tournament organizers themselves are ok with everything, I don't see any reason for people to spend so much time getting worked up about this kinda stuff which can be debated without end, and to the benefit of noone.
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EPT
