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Hey everyone!
So lately I have seen a lot of people question Scarlett's ability to play in a female only tournament, simply because she wasn't born a female. So I have decided, since this topic is really starting to annoy me that I am going to write a rant for you all to read! With that being said I want to mention that I do have many transgender friends - One of them being my best friend who was actually born female but she basically identifies and lives her life as a man. She has done so since we met in elementary school. So with that being said, lets get right to my rant!
1.) Female tournaments are to encourage the growth of females being involved. It is something that is needed at the moment.
2.) If someone lives their life as a female, identifies themselves as a female - Regardless of operation or not, then why shouldn't she be treated as a female?! Those operations are NOT cheap. So you can't expect every bloody transgender individual to be able to afford such an operation.
The next bit of my rant goes as followed:
What makes a woman? What do you HONESTLY think makes a woman? It is some kind of idea you have had in your head... It is your opinion of what a female should be. This is an opinion we all grow up with. We all have our own opinions and thoughts on what we think a guy should be or what a female should be, but tell me what really makes a female?
Lets break this down and think about it:
The fact she was born female?
~ By law sure, by looks sure - Does this mean she really feels that way or lives her life that way? Does this mean she identifies herself as a female? No.
The fact that she has a big bra size?
~ No.
The looks?
~ No.
Being delicate?
~ No.
It is your FRAME of mind that defines your gender. In other words, it is your way of thinking and seeing yourself, that defines what gender you classify yourself as.
It is the WAY you LIVE YOUR LIFE.
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It is WHAT gender you identify yourself as - If that is female, then you are female. If it is male, then you are male.
Now let me tell you what does NOT make a female:
It is NOT the make up.
It is NOT the body.
It is NOT what the birth certificate says.
So Lets Quickly Review What Defines You As Being A "Female":
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you represent yourself.
It SHOULD be defined by what you IDENTIFY yourself as to everyone else.
That is all there is to it. Those who don't understand that, should really open their eyes and rethink of how they "define" what is a "female" or a "woman".
It is rather sickening that so many of you are so closed minded and want to assume the worst. The person that runs a tournament can decide to allow transgenders in if they so choose. This isn't a beauty pageant where your bloody birth certificate is required. It is a game! The idea of such tournaments is to help PROMOTE E-Sports more. It is meant to help encourage other ladies to play as well! Thanks to Scarlett, quite a few of the girls in GoSc decide to start playing again and practicing a lot more, just to try to improve! They were inspired by her! Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?. This frame of mind that many of you have at this moment could end up making this such a nasty community to be a part of or it could even just hurt the goal of helping expand E-Sports. What makes her so different? So what if she was born differently! We all were born differently! It is what makes us who we are! So stop hating just cause she is going some where and she doesn't fit your opinion of what a woman should be. Instead, support her and all other transgender individuals! Welcome them with open arms, just as you would welcome any other gamer!
With that I am ending my rant. Thanks for reading.
~~~
EDIT: Part of the point I am trying to make was best said by Phraside on a reddit post earlier today:
"It is not particularly unfair to the other women for several reasons. The main reason is there is no actual physical advantage to being a male in starcraft. Iron Lady is not about having female genitalia, but actually about bringing together and highlighting a pretty small part of the community. If a person identifies as female, we see them as female."
~~~
  
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Just sayign .. if they dont have a vagina they arent a female.. It's biologically impossible to reproduce that way when you need a male and female..
You can call them a female.. but hey...i dont know any "women" i've been with that dont have the above body part.. for instance, if I ended up dating a transgendered individual who thought they were a woman, but really weren't... do you think I would be "okay" with that?
I understand your point, and that you're explaining transgendered individuals better, but at the same time no matter what you say to me I will not accept something with a penis as a TRUE female... no matter what he or she says she is
Beyond that, It doesn't really matter because I am not going to go around looking for transgendered people to call them out on their differences or how they choose to live their life
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I agree with your last sentiment; unfortunately, the competitive community doesn't. The presence of women's tournaments forces us to make distinctions between the two genders that should not be made in an empirically equal society. As a result, the transgender issue is a natural byproduct of this division. What makes a woman is simple: genetics. What makes a woman in society: genetics, and sometimes decisions (as is the case for Scarlett). The thing to note is that this choice was never made for competitive gaming.
Summary: Gender is only an issue because of the organizations that promote gender distinctions.
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There are ample physical differences between a male and a female beyond the, ahem, reproductive organs. You can tell yourself it 'should' be defined by whatever you think is important, but the fact of the matter is, males and females are not the same, and never will be - because of biological reasons. I'm not saying a transgender female is somehow not as good as someone born female (personally, I really don't have an opinion on that), but don't make the mistake of confusing equality with being identical; if someone feels like running a tournament which is open to females, 'real' - biological females only, there is nothing wrong with that. Aren't transgender females disallowed from entering most female-only sports on similar grounds, too? Or do you feel that is also unfair?
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On April 23 2012 23:33 Salazarz wrote:
There are ample physical differences between a male and a female beyond the, ahem, reproductive organs. You can tell yourself it 'should' be defined by whatever you think is important, but the fact of the matter is, males and females are not the same, and never will be - because of biological reasons. I'm not saying a transgender female is somehow not as good as someone born female (personally, I really don't have an opinion on that), but don't make the mistake of confusing equality with being identical; if someone feels like running a tournament which is open to females, 'real' - biological females only, there is nothing wrong with that. Aren't transgender females disallowed from entering most female-only sports on similar grounds, too? Or do you feel that is also unfair?
Most "real" sports revolve around physical capabilities, which have historically favored men over women due to genetic reasons. The fact that females have never scraped the absolute upper echelons of skill (thinking TBLS or GSL champion, I guess) in SC1/2... This is still a debatable indicator of whether gender plays any physical or genetic part. The presence of gamers such as TossGirl in BW prove that it is by no means impossible to be within the top 1% of a gaming population as a female in SC1/2, but she was never the best. It's more or less impossible to prove one way or the other. In such a situation, I don't think standard sports rules should apply, or at least should apply without any doubt.
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If I 'feel' like a woman and live my life like one (what does that even mean, like, give an example) I should be allowed to join the female olympics even though I have the body of a man?
Being male or female is simply a matter of XX or XY.
I do however think that the whole drama going on atm is pretty dumb, but not because of the points listed in the OP.
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@ Th1rdEye: Yes - Biologically, sure they were born male. They can go and get the sex change - Sure they can't bear children, they can't have a period...but to be honest, I think that might be more of a blessing to them - cause its rather annoying. However they for all intense purposes ARE female.
@ Jealous: I am hoping people will open their minds and understand that some people honestly were born one way but feel a completely different way. I hope that one day they will accept individuals like Scarlett, with open arms...Instead of all of the crap that has been going on. ~ To some extent you are right, the organizations are promoting based on a certain gender...However people choose to promote based on country only tournaments - Where only one country is promoted. Sometimes they allow people to play in those tournaments, for that particular country, if they have lived in that country for x amount of time - Instead of making it for people who were both BORN and CURRENTLY reside there. The same goes for this kind of tournament. I hope you understand what I mean.
@ Salazar: No one implied that the gender was verified by proof of birth certificate. If you wish to do something like that, such as what Donald Trump does with his beauty pageants, then by all means...Do that... That is fine by me. However, once again this particular type of tournament is not open to biological females only - It is open to those who identify themselves as females and live their life as females. Regardless of how they were actually born or of how the law looks at them because of the equipment they were born with.
@ Kranten: Read my above responses to the other posters before you. Hopefully you will find your answer among those, cause you brought up something that someone else did and I don't wish to repeat myself.
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On April 23 2012 23:37 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:33 Salazarz wrote:
There are ample physical differences between a male and a female beyond the, ahem, reproductive organs. You can tell yourself it 'should' be defined by whatever you think is important, but the fact of the matter is, males and females are not the same, and never will be - because of biological reasons. I'm not saying a transgender female is somehow not as good as someone born female (personally, I really don't have an opinion on that), but don't make the mistake of confusing equality with being identical; if someone feels like running a tournament which is open to females, 'real' - biological females only, there is nothing wrong with that. Aren't transgender females disallowed from entering most female-only sports on similar grounds, too? Or do you feel that is also unfair? Most "real" sports revolve around physical capabilities, which have historically favored men over women due to genetic reasons. The fact that females have never scraped the absolute upper echelons of skill (thinking TBLS or GSL champion, I guess) in SC1/2... This is still a debatable indicator of whether gender plays any physical or genetic part. The presence of gamers such as TossGirl in BW prove that it is by no means impossible to be within the top 1% of a gaming population as a female in SC1/2, but she was never the best. It's more or less impossible to prove one way or the other. In such a situation, I don't think standard sports rules should apply, or at least should apply without any doubt.
Just because you or I don't think so, doesn't mean that whatever tournament organizers should agree with us. Also, I can absolutely see a transgender female winning a female-only tournament causing all kinds of drama and hostilities. On top of that, don't you think that it's a little strange that the person who is likely the best female player right now is a transgender individual? After all, if you consider the amount of biological females playing SC2 vs the amount of transgenders doing so, odds are gonna be pretty stacked. Maybe it's just a coincidence (and the fact that someone who has the determination to do something as complex as a sex change operation is likely quite headstrong and is like that in practice etc as well), maybe not - but either way I don't think the issue is as clear and obvious as the OP wants it to be.
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Wait how come I didn't knew about this ?
But doctors would still say the same , she still has a brain of a male . Regardless living a life of a woman .
But Koreans and well known foreigners are still gonna dominate the starcraft scene for maybe a long period of time .
Maybe some guys are just jealous that Scarlett are doing better than them .
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On April 23 2012 23:49 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:37 Jealous wrote:On April 23 2012 23:33 Salazarz wrote:
There are ample physical differences between a male and a female beyond the, ahem, reproductive organs. You can tell yourself it 'should' be defined by whatever you think is important, but the fact of the matter is, males and females are not the same, and never will be - because of biological reasons. I'm not saying a transgender female is somehow not as good as someone born female (personally, I really don't have an opinion on that), but don't make the mistake of confusing equality with being identical; if someone feels like running a tournament which is open to females, 'real' - biological females only, there is nothing wrong with that. Aren't transgender females disallowed from entering most female-only sports on similar grounds, too? Or do you feel that is also unfair? Most "real" sports revolve around physical capabilities, which have historically favored men over women due to genetic reasons. The fact that females have never scraped the absolute upper echelons of skill (thinking TBLS or GSL champion, I guess) in SC1/2... This is still a debatable indicator of whether gender plays any physical or genetic part. The presence of gamers such as TossGirl in BW prove that it is by no means impossible to be within the top 1% of a gaming population as a female in SC1/2, but she was never the best. It's more or less impossible to prove one way or the other. In such a situation, I don't think standard sports rules should apply, or at least should apply without any doubt. Just because you or I don't think so, doesn't mean that whatever tournament organizers should agree with us. Also, I can absolutely see a transgender female winning a female-only tournament causing all kinds of drama and hostilities. On top of that, don't you think that it's a little strange that the person who is likely the best female player right now is a transgender individual? After all, if you consider the amount of biological females playing SC2 vs the amount of transgenders doing so, odds are gonna be pretty stacked. Maybe it's just a coincidence (and the fact that someone who has the determination to do something as complex as a sex change operation is likely quite headstrong and is like that in practice etc as well), maybe not - but either way I don't think the issue is as clear and obvious as the OP wants it to be.
Actually, while Scarlett is good, I am not sure she would be considered the best female player. I would say she is among the top 10 best female players though. Further more I do wish to quote one thing that I read earlier today and that is the following:
"It is not particularly unfair to the other women for several reasons. The main reason is there is no actual physical advantage to being a male in starcraft. Iron Lady is not about having female genitalia, but actually about bringing together and highlighting a pretty small part of the community. If a person identifies as female, we see them as female."
^- That is part of the point I am trying to make that people don't seem to understand.
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Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?.
Girls are nicer than us. Its one of the most important realizations I've ever made 
But yes, my unjustifiably high number of posts in Scarlett fanclub makes me agree with this post : )
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I don't really understand what it means to "feel" like a woman. It's a purely social concept as far as I know, that women are this way and men are that way. I have no problem having feminine qualities as a man. Who cares? The whole masculine/feminine business is blatantly sexist.
So personally I'm very confused on what transgender even means. I don't have any transgender friends. I don't really get it. Your post really doesn't clarify that issue for me. I assume there is more to it than I'm seeing, but I don't know what that is.
I certainly don't think anything should be that exclusionary of course. If she wants me call her a girl and be treated like a girl then more power to her. There's no reason to discriminate or anything.
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On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up.
In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue.
In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list:
How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011.
How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level.
How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result.
And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark.
In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion.
THE POINT
Taking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story.
I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy.
Long Live the new Queen of Blades
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Regardless of the intentions behind this thread, it probably won't be long before it's ruined and we have to close it. Cmon TL prove me wrong!!
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I didn't want to shit up the scarlett threads so I just didn't post there, but I think it would be okay to post here.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to argue that having a big bra size, her looks, or "being delicate" dictates being a female, nor does having an expensive operation. I may be ignorant on the topic and I don't mean to offend, but to me being male or female is based upon physiology. Finally regarding her playing in female only tournaments, I don't really see a problem with it. But to be honest, as pharside states "the main reason is there is no actual physical advantage to being a male in starcraft".
Anyway thats just my thoughts. Goodluck with everything.
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I don't disagree with your views, but this looks more like a statement of your beliefs being stated as fact. The question "what makes a person a woman?" is a complicated one with many facets to it which are difficult to understand - that's the reason it's such a personal issue. Do we know what scientifically and factually makes us in love? Not that I'm aware of. But we know what it is when we feel it. But do we know what makes us have a certain color of hair and eyes? It's mostly the color of hair and eyes you were born with. The issue of sexuality lies somewhere in between, and the amount of confidence everyone seems to have in what perceptions are fair and what mentality is "right" is ridiculous.
I'm a guy, and I've never felt like not a guy - though I do have distinctly non-"manly" tendencies sometimes. I do believe it is possible other people could feel imprisoned in the wrong type of body, and I sympathize both with how horrible that would feel as well as with the ridiculous amount of unwarranted hatred such people endure.
But at the same time, pretending as though we absolutely know what defines gender, we absolutely know what constitutes identity, and many other issues that everyone seems to have such deeply certain beliefs on is not going to make things better. The hatred and misunderstanding people see on this is a symptom of larger problems like ignorance and intolerance. Replacing that with "better ignorance" and "better intolerance" isn't actually going to make it better - it's only going to make it horrible for different reasons.
Edit: To be more constructive, what I think we ought to do is to admit that we don't have damn clue what makes a woman, and just give transgendered folks the benefit of the doubt that they're not undergoing all the hardships associated with being born one gender and switching to another because they think it's fun. You can not understand the decisions someone makes with their life while still supporting their right to make those decisions with their lives. I don't understand how this (and not some misguided definition of what is "female" and what is "male") is not the actual underlying issue.
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On April 24 2012 00:06 SaintBadger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up. In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue. In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list: How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011. How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level. How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result. And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark. In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion. THE POINTTaking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story. I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy. Long Live the new Queen of Blades
Please do not think, that for one moment I am not saying it shouldn't be discussed. Please do not think that I am saying "do as you feel" approach either. I am simply saying that we, as a community, should try to be more understanding and more welcoming. Please understand, I do work for a lawyer part time. At one point I studied law every moment I could, with a goal to eventually end up on Supreme Court. So I completely understand what you are talking about. My problem is not with the discussion, it is with those who just straight out say that because she was born male, she has no right to be there. To me, that is wrong. ~ This blog was as much of a rant, as it was to hopefully, get people to just think about how they look at situations like this. What kind of message do we wish to send to the other transgenders in the community? There are many that people are not aware of. They are scared to let people know that they are transgender, simply because of the reaction people give. The whole point of this blog was for me to blow off some steam about how I think to many people are to quick to decide how something "should be" in their mind, based on the way someone was born. It was not meant towards those who are honestly discussing it as mature adults. This blog was mainly aimed to rant and to make people think ~ That is all >.<
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Netherlands6142 Posts
When you say
So Lets Quickly Review What Defines You As Being A "Female":
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you represent yourself.
It SHOULD be defined by what you IDENTIFY yourself as to everyone else.
do you mean these verbs to be conscious acts? (except "feel" I suppose)
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On April 24 2012 00:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 00:06 SaintBadger wrote:On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up. In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue. In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list: How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011. How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level. How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result. And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark. In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion. THE POINTTaking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story. I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy. Long Live the new Queen of Blades Please do not think, that for one moment I am not saying it shouldn't be discussed. Please do not think that I am saying "do as you feel" approach either. I am simply saying that we, as a community, should try to be more understanding and more welcoming.
I would agree with this point. I think individuals are allowed to hold whatever opinions they like on the subject of transgendered individuals, but some of the hatred and outright disrespect that Scarlett has gotten is totally absurd. Whatever one's opinion on the subject, she's still an amazing Starcraft player and deserves to be recognized as such.
Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?. This frame of mind that many of you have at this moment could end up making this such a nasty community to be a part of or it could even just hurt the goal of helping expand E-Sports. What makes her so different? So what if she was born differently! We all were born differently!
I think we need to make a distinction between those who have contrary opinion on the subject, and those who have openly disrespected her or spread hatred. If someone's personal or religious beliefs lead them to believe that biology is the ultimate determining factor in certain aspects of gender; they are well within their rights to express that opinion. The world would be supremely boring if everyone had the same set of opinions on every issue. But there's a time and a place for expressing those opinions, and there's certainly a very clear line between expressing one's views on a topic and inciting hatred of an individual because of their personal choices.
I think we also need to accept that while Scarlett may be mentally a female, there's a difference between a biological female and a transgendered individual. I've known a number of transgendered people in my life, including one ftm individual who was seriously one of the nicest and awesomest people I've ever known. I've got no issues with transgendered individuals, nor do I have any issues with their personal choices. But I have to admit, I would never consider dating or being in a romatic relationship with someone who was a MtF transgendered person. I would not be comfortable with it, plain and simple. It's not something that I can rationalize nor explain easily, it's just the way I feel about it. There is a difference between someone who is born biologically a female and someone who undergoes a transition; whether we want to admit that or not it's true. We need to make a distintion between someone who's personal beliefs dictate a different opinion on the subject and someone who is openly negative about her for who and what she is. One is okay, the other is not.
Though I think a lot of what's been thrown against Scarlett comes from people who are uncomfortable with the issue. For a lot of people, gender is something static, something that is clear and defined. When those lines are blurred, for a lot of people that distorts their entire perspective on a range of social and personal issues. It's easier to simply classify Scarlett as a male than actually accept that gender is not necessarily something clear and defined, and the entire shifting of social perspectives that comes along with that acceptance.
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On April 24 2012 01:00 Pholon wrote:When you say Show nested quote +So Lets Quickly Review What Defines You As Being A "Female":
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you represent yourself.
It SHOULD be defined by what you IDENTIFY yourself as to everyone else. do you mean these verbs to be conscious acts? (except "feel" I suppose)
Yes. In regards to how you feel and how you live your life and how you identify yourself..I think that is both a conscious and subconscious act. It is very hard to explain exactly what I meant there...My apologies for not being able to give a clear answer.
On April 24 2012 01:05 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 00:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On April 24 2012 00:06 SaintBadger wrote:On April 23 2012 23:22 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
It is HOW you see yourself. NOT how others view you!
It SHOULD be defined by HOW you FEEL and HOW you LIVE your life.
First of all, please understand my lexicon on this issue. "Male" and "Female" refer to sex. That is to say Scarlett is a male. I realize there are some aberrational departures from the traditional XX and XY sytem of chromosomes, but we have no reason to believe that is the case in this discussion. "Man" and "Woman" and all their derivatives refer to gender. That is to say, Scarlett is a girl. While it introduces the somewhat awkward context of a "male woman" or a "female man", this vocabulary allows us to clearly move through the issue without having to issue three or four disclaimers after every sentence. If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, please look it up. In the realm of starcraft, defining gender by how one feels and how one represents his/herself is well and good. The worst that can happen is a debate over legitimacy of female-only tournament entries. If we all take a big step back, I'm sure we can agree that this does not rise to the level of an earth-shattering issue. In the real world, pretending that gender = sex creates quite a few problems. It does not require a lot of imagination to make a list: How about male/female restrooms? No big deal, girls should lighten up if a male woman chooses to use their restroom, right? That is the typical answer by the allegedly enlightened bunch, but it completely ignores the fact that female women have won quite a few astonishingly large judgements from sexual harassment suits on that issue. And we aren't talking 1960 litigation. We're talking 2011. How about sex-based scholarships? Is a male woman eligible for an endowment to a woman's college? Should it be the perrogative of the trustee to decide who is eligible for a scholarship earmarked for women (or perhaps females)? Courts have split on this one, and some fairly ugly litigation is pending at the Supreme Court level. How about marriage? No, not the old same-sex marriage routine. That one has been done. How about failure to disclose transgender status prior to marriage being grounds for annulment if discovered after ceremony? It's happened. And a guy that I feel for ended up paying a lot of alimony as a result. And for those loyal readers who have made it this far, I saved the best for last. During the assembly of the Affordable Care Act (commonly known as Obamacare), there was a suggestion made to add sexual reassignment surgery to the already large list of treatments which are required to be covered by any entity selling health insurance. In laymen's terms, that means that if you or your boss is providing health care for your family, whether you have any desire to change your gender surgically, you would have been required to carry that coverage, pay a commensurate increase in fee, and pay an additional increase to cover sexual reassignment surgery for those who live below the poverty mark. In all fairness, this provision does not appear in the final bill. However, CA and several other states have tried the same thing at the state level. As the OP points out, these surgeries are quite costly. Are we cool with that? Maybe we are; after all, no one relishes the thought of being trapped in a body that doesn't function the way we desire. But it's a whole new ballgame when others are required to pay for it, and it does warrant discussion. THE POINTTaking one's word for it as to which gender he or she identifies with is not an option without some serious discussion and reorgnization of massive areas of our legal framework. I understand how tempting it is to snap back at some idiot who essentially posts 'HURR DURR PENIS!!!!", but be careful. There are those of us who do not subscribe to the "do as you feel" approach who are fairly knowledgable on the subject. To imply that there is nothing to discuss here smacks of an even higher level of ignorance than those who gutcheck a bigoted reaction to the Scarlett story. I can't imagine why this post would warrant a temp ban, but seeing as how they are handed out so easily whenever this subject arises, I'll simply say that I don't play devil's advocate for fun. I work in politics specifically to get these issues addressed and resolved to the best of our collective abilities. I am a fan of Scarlett and hope that she is recognized and remembered for her play, not as a lightning rod for this sort of controversy. Long Live the new Queen of Blades Please do not think, that for one moment I am not saying it shouldn't be discussed. Please do not think that I am saying "do as you feel" approach either. I am simply saying that we, as a community, should try to be more understanding and more welcoming. I would agree with this point. I think individuals are allowed to hold whatever opinions they like on the subject of transgendered individuals, but some of the hatred and outright disrespect that Scarlett has gotten is totally absurd. Whatever one's opinion on the subject, she's still an amazing Starcraft player and deserves to be recognized as such. Show nested quote +Many of us knew she was a transgender before it was out in the open and if we, THE FEMALE COMMUNITY, ACCEPTED her as a FELLOW FEMALE, then why can't the rest of you?. This frame of mind that many of you have at this moment could end up making this such a nasty community to be a part of or it could even just hurt the goal of helping expand E-Sports. What makes her so different? So what if she was born differently! We all were born differently! I think we need to make a distinction between those who have contrary opinion on the subject, and those who have openly disrespected her or spread hatred. If someone's personal or religious beliefs lead them to believe that biology is the ultimate determining factor in certain aspects of gender; they are well within their rights to express that opinion. The world would be supremely boring if everyone had the same set of opinions on every issue. But there's a time and a place for expressing those opinions, and there's certainly a very clear line between expressing one's views on a topic and inciting hatred of an individual because of their personal choices. I think we also need to accept that while Scarlett may be mentally a female, there's a difference between a biological female and a transgendered individual. I've known a number of transgendered people in my life, including one ftm individual who was seriously one of the nicest and awesomest people I've ever known. I've got no issues with transgendered individuals, nor do I have any issues with their personal choices. But I have to admit, I would never consider dating or being in a romatic relationship with someone who was a MtF transgendered person. I would not be comfortable with it, plain and simple. It's not something that I can rationalize nor explain easily, it's just the way I feel about it. There is a difference between someone who is born biologically a female and someone who undergoes a transition; whether we want to admit that or not it's true. We need to make a distintion between someone who's personal beliefs dictate a different opinion on the subject and someone who is openly negative about her for who and what she is. One is okay, the other is not. Though I think a lot of what's been thrown against Scarlett comes from people who are uncomfortable with the issue. For a lot of people, gender is something static, something that is clear and defined. When those lines are blurred, for a lot of people that distorts their entire perspective on a range of social and personal issues. It's easier to simply classify Scarlett as a male than actually accept that gender is not necessarily something clear and defined, and the entire shifting of social perspectives that comes along with that acceptance.
You know what - TheToast, that is ok if you don't want to be in a romantic relationship with someone in that situation and yes, there are some body differences but my point is - If Donald Trump is now reviewing the Beauty Pageant Rules, for one of the BIGGEST WOMEN (BIOLOGICAL) ONLY things, and there is a transgender competing - Then why should it be looked down upon here? ~~~ Proof: http://jezebel.com/5899035/donald-trump-does-something-okay-for-once-reverses-trans-womans-disqualification-from-pageant
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