EPTI tend to hate these sensitive topics because well, they're sensitive and it's a bit tricky to discuss them. I never really cared but I think it's time to educate myself on all of this since I'm so uninformed
Rant #2 - Transgender Individuals & the reactions - Page 4
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Sephy90
United States1785 Posts
I tend to hate these sensitive topics because well, they're sensitive and it's a bit tricky to discuss them. I never really cared but I think it's time to educate myself on all of this since I'm so uninformed | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On April 23 2012 23:27 Th1rdEye wrote: Just sayign .. if they dont have a vagina they arent a female.. It's biologically impossible to reproduce that way when you need a male and female.. You can call them a female.. but hey...i dont know any "women" i've been with that dont have the above body part.. for instance, if I ended up dating a transgendered individual who thought they were a woman, but really weren't... do you think I would be "okay" with that? I understand your point, and that you're explaining transgendered individuals better, but at the same time no matter what you say to me I will not accept something with a penis as a TRUE female... no matter what he or she says she is Sometimes little people are mistaken for being young. I mean, they're small right? Just like children? Then they tell you they're an adult. But wait..... they're small, so I guess I'll just call him/her a child! Maybe a bit of a dumbed down example, but this is basically the logic you're following. If someone in a male body identifies themselves as female, they are female. No one cares if you'd be okay with dating a transgendered person, nor does it have any relevance. | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
What if I was a decent SC player but not quite good enough to compete with the best and I get this brilliant idea to put on a wig, turn my web cam on and then sign up for a female only tourny? Who is to say that I dont feel like a female in every way and that I am only doing it to get famous and win cool cash at the expense of the "real" female gamers? Ofc this example is a bit extreme but can you possibly say without a certain of doubt that something like this wont happen in the future or that Scarlett isn´t in fact exploiting your good will and tolerance to get what he/she wants? Maybe you can but in this case I´d rather be safe than sorry and Scarlett has, after all, proven good enough to compete with the best. Its not like Scarlett lose out on a lot by not being able to compete in the female tourneys, which is actually what this all boils down to. It seems like people are forgetting that. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:24 DaCruise wrote: I dont think Scarlett should be allowed in female only tournaments. What if I was a decent SC player but not quite good enough to compete with the best and I get this brilliant idea to put on a wig, turn my web cam on and then sign up for a female only tourny? Who is to say that I dont feel like a female in every way and that I am only doing it to get famous and win cool cash at the expense of the "real" female gamers? Ofc this example is a bit extreme but can you possibly say without a certain of doubt that something like this wont happen in the future or that Scarlett isn´t in fact exploiting your good will and tolerance to get what he/she wants? Maybe you can but in this case I´d rather be safe than sorry and Scarlett has, after all, proven good enough to compete with the best. Its not like Scarlett lose out on a lot by not being able to compete in the female tourneys, which is actually what this all boils down to. It seems like people are forgetting that. Okay, I'm going to take away all of your rights, because some other jackass might abuse those rights. You can't drive, because someone else might run people over with a car. You can't have a religion, because someone else might declare a holy war. You can't say what you want, because someone else might say something discriminatory. Please use your brain. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:24 DaCruise wrote: I dont think Scarlett should be allowed in female only tournaments. What if I was a decent SC player but not quite good enough to compete with the best and I get this brilliant idea to put on a wig, turn my web cam on and then sign up for a female only tourny? Who is to say that I dont feel like a female in every way and that I am only doing it to get famous and win cool cash at the expense of the "real" female gamers? Ofc this example is a bit extreme but can you possibly say without a certain of doubt that something like this wont happen in the future or that Scarlett isn´t in fact exploiting your good will and tolerance to get what he/she wants? Maybe you can but in this case I´d rather be safe than sorry and Scarlett has, after all, proven good enough to compete with the best. Its not like Scarlett lose out on a lot by not being able to compete in the female tourneys, which is actually what this all boils down to. It seems like people are forgetting that. You know, you really should err on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt. We're talking about trying to bring people into the community and encouraging as many people as possible to participate. "Better safe than sorry" would be directly harmful to the community. We should not be exclusionary in any way. | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:37 WolfintheSheep wrote: Okay, I'm going to take away all of your rights, because some other jackass might abuse those rights. You can't drive, because someone else might run people over with a car. You can't have a religion, because someone else might declare a holy war. You can't say what you want, because someone else might say something discriminatory. Please use your brain. But we cant make rules and laws where no one can drive, have religion and such or society would crash. However in the Scarlett case we can easily make a rule with minimal consequenses for the involved parties. There. I used my brain. | ||
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Kerotan
England2111 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:24 DaCruise wrote: Its not like Scarlett lose out on a lot by not being able to compete in the female tourneys, which is actually what this all boils down to. It seems like people are forgetting that. I dislike this idea, tournies for women are additionals, rather segregation, by playing in iron ladies players like Aurora are not disqualifying themselves from playing any other tourny, and just because Scarlett can go deep in IPL4 doesn't mean that anyone should take away her privilege of playing is ladies only leagues. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote: Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS. Again, there is no evidence to demonstrate any of this. Girls are a stark minority in Starcraft, so they are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to reaching the top by sheer numbers. Even if that were biological in nature (which you have not demonstrated), that could be a lack of interest in the game rather than a lack of competence (which is more likely anyway). You are also assuming that Scarlett has a male brain, and she's transgender ffs. The point is, you just assumed like five different things and it's bullshit. | ||
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Kerotan
England2111 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:43 zany_001 wrote: Perhaps a better question is, why are there female only tournaments at all? I'm not aware of any male only tournaments. If the purpose is to get more girls interested in the game then fine, but any reason other than that is sexist, IMHO. Look at every other tournament ever. While the only men allowed rule may not be explicit, and is certainly not a decision on behalf of the tournament organisers, we as a community need to recognise that Starcraft as a community is incredibly male dominated, especially on the player end of the spectrum, and that the starcraft community, and the wider gaming community needs to more be to appealing and less stigmatised to women. Besides groups like girls of starcraft, Gay TeamLiquid and ESL iron lady will continue exist as long as there is demand for comfortable spaces for minority groups to interact and hold tournaments, and there nothing you can do about it. On April 24 2012 08:48 Game wrote: Honestly, the only thing I could point out is a lack of fairness, not a bias towards transgender people. Females and males have been scientifically proven for ages to not think alike, use their brains in the same manner, or identify with things the same. The old abstract vs 3D. Point is, it makes Scarlett's ability, even with hormones and treatments, to inevitably think and play like a man unfair to the female competition. Oh but Game, you're such a sexist!! Last time I checked, even the practice queen ToSsGirl (PS I love you Tossgirl) could not compete in the tier1 of the male population of progamers, and that has gone for any high level RTS. In addition to Doublereed: Have you considered the influence of social factors? As some one who was born male, I have been able to play video games more or less all my life without rebuke, since even jocks play Call of Duty and Fifa now. For girls, it simply isn't the same. I know lots of women who play video games, but game playing is stigmatised by society at large, and by other women. I've women openly confide in me how much they loved playing Skyrim or WoW, but have done it in such hushed tones that no one but me could possibly hear. In short playing games carries a stigma for women, more or less the same to the one that video gaming used to carry men: That people who play video games are unattractive, unsociable, smelly weirdos. So lets be honest with ourselves, if this sort of stigma still exists in western liberal societies, I can only speculate the stigma that is attached to gaming as a woman in Korea. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
also gender and sex are different...ugh. not even worth discussing. plexa should have closed this. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:55 DoubleReed wrote: Again, there is no evidence to demonstrate any of this. Girls are a stark minority in Starcraft, so they are at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to reaching the top by sheer numbers. Even if that were biological in nature (which you have not demonstrated), that could be a lack of interest in the game rather than a lack of competence (which is more likely anyway). You are also assuming that Scarlett has a male brain, and she's transgender ffs. The point is, you just assumed like five different things and it's bullshit. You assume I care what you say enough to go and link something you could easily google. Also, BW, you know, that thing that created eSports? It had female only professional leagues, tournaments, etcetera. So you can take one assumption out of there, because it's been tested that female gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up. | ||
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Kerotan
England2111 Posts
On April 24 2012 09:13 Game wrote: You assume I care what you say enough to go and link something you could easily google. Also, BW, you know, that thing that created eSports? It had female only professional leagues, tournaments, etcetera. So you can take one assumption out of there, because it's been tested that female gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up. Its been tested that foreign gamers in StarCraft can genuinely not keep up with Korean gamers, so ergo Koreans must be genetically superior. | ||
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CPTBadAss
United States594 Posts
Plus, can't we be happy that a foreigner came out of no where and smashed some Koreans? I like to think above all else, we value great skill and gameplay in SC2 on TL. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 24 2012 08:45 DaCruise wrote: But we cant make rules and laws where no one can drive, have religion and such or society would crash. However in the Scarlett case we can easily make a rule with minimal consequenses for the involved parties. There. I used my brain. Not very well, apparently, since you can't seem to fathom any alternative to banning a player because someone else might break the rules. Like, you know, asking for legal documents that state their gender...like Iron Lady already does. Or, you know, assume that no one would be stupid enough to publicly try to scam an organization for $100 that you probably won't even get. But honestly, I'm not even taking you very seriously, because the fact is you're just grasping at some random straws to get Scarlett excluded. | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
On April 24 2012 10:11 WolfintheSheep wrote: Not very well, apparently, since you can't seem to fathom any alternative to banning a player because someone else might break the rules. Like, you know, asking for legal documents that state their gender...like Iron Lady already does. Or, you know, assume that no one would be stupid enough to publicly try to scam an organization for $100 that you probably won't even get. But honestly, I'm not even taking you very seriously, because the fact is you're just grasping at some random straws to get Scarlett excluded. Well I could just state the obvious that it is unfair to have a guy competing in a girl tournament but that is apperently not a valid arguement. | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
So, to recap, transgenders have a fundamentally different brain more suited to being the opposite gender, genitalia does NOT define gender and, as a cherry on top, transgenders often seek to physically imitate the other gender as well. What does that mean in regards to a transgender's gender? Well, if you plug your ears and say "Whatever gender he/she was born as!" you are pretty wrong. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On April 24 2012 10:33 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Transgenders have a different physical brain from normal people of the same gender. Also, genitalia is not always a reliable way of determining gender. Sometimes people can have both sex organs, part of one of them, nonfunctioning organs of a different gender, etc. etc. Also, gender identity is a biological component of the human brain. As a cherry on top, many transgenders seek to physically imitate the other gender as well. So, to recap, transgenders have a fundamentally different brain more suited to being the opposite gender, genitalia does NOT define gender and, as a cherry on top, transgenders often seek to physically imitate the other gender as well. What does that mean in regards to a transgender's gender? Well, if you plug your ears and say "Whatever gender he/she was born as!" you are pretty wrong. I think acquiring the appropriate genitalia is key, however, most teens who are transgender often don't have access to the genitals they want. But life is like a MMO quest! You level up, get gold, and eventually, buy the genitals you've always dreamed of. Being born with different genitals than your brain wants is just playing Life on Hard Mode. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
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