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Pretty sure that ST Aphrodite would be better than Scarlett IMO. Not to mention it took Aphrodite like... 1-2months to get masters in KR, with the help of Rainbow of course.
I'd say if Aphrodite got serious about going to international tournies, which is super hard for her I'd assume, she would beat a lot of the 'top' NA players.
Aphrodite also said the reason why SlayerS hasn't played Eve, is cause shes only low-mid diamond level, and that a Aphrodite vs Eve showmatch would only be a one sided domination in her favour. \
Now, you can say that ST and SlayerS are doing it wrong; but how so? They are supporting female programmers, no matter the skill level - to encourage players like Scarlett and others to come out of the woodwork's, to beat DOWN the stereotype of programmers only making it big are male.
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On April 19 2012 21:30 Sickkiee wrote:
Pretty sure that ST Aphrodite would be better than Scarlett IMO. Not to mention it took Aphrodite like... 1-2months to get masters in KR, with the help of Rainbow of course.
I'd say if Aphrodite got serious about going to international tournies, which is super hard for her I'd assume, she would beat a lot of the 'top' NA players.
Aphrodite also said the reason why SlayerS hasn't played Eve, is cause shes only low-mid diamond level, and that a Aphrodite vs Eve showmatch would only be a one sided domination in her favour. \
Now, you can say that ST and SlayerS are doing it wrong; but how so? They are supporting female programmers, no matter the skill level - to encourage players like Scarlett and others to come out of the woodwork's, to beat DOWN the stereotype of programmers only making it big are male.
Eve is masters now and Aphrodite did beat a few "low-mid tier NA pros" on ladder
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On April 19 2012 21:30 Sickkiee wrote:
Pretty sure that ST Aphrodite would be better than Scarlett IMO. Not to mention it took Aphrodite like... 1-2months to get masters in KR, with the help of Rainbow of course.
I'd say if Aphrodite got serious about going to international tournies, which is super hard for her I'd assume, she would beat a lot of the 'top' NA players.
Myself I'm with Scarlett. But until Aphro actually plays a real tournament we can't know. (She definitely has the advantage of an awesome practice environment/coaching.)
With the "what are these teams doing wrong" aspect, well, they are choosing women they consider "have potential", who also happen to be cute; rather than signing up women who have already demonstrated their skill (the way it works with boys). Stephano is cute as all get out but that wasn't what got him his team.
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I'm a live and let live kind of person but have you stopped to consider how actual women might think about it taking a biological male to legitimize female esports in your eyes? I suppose some wouldn't care while it might ruffle the feathers of others (that's an idiom, females biological or otherwise don't have feathers (to the best of my knowledge))
Secondly about Eve and such, they have opportunities in esports they wouldn't normally get from their looks. There are other gamers who were chosen for their looks, like Bisu, most handsome progamer of all time. If you think they are unaware of their own status as actual players I think you're mistaken. They are likely just as sober to the fact as you and the rest of the fans are. You can like it or leave it but it's hardly your place to approve or disapprove.
I feel like there's always a subversive undercurrent to these blogs like it's a man's responsibility to legitimize what a girl tries to do. "I approve of you being a part of a team this way, but not this way" who are you to judge? It's just bizarre why so many guys seem to think it's in their hands to sweepingly accord female gamers 'legitimacy' or not.
Why are these blogs never made by the actual girls who play? I'd love to hear their thoughts. I doubt many of them wake up each morning with the burden of 'legitimizing female sports' around their neck like one would think by how often they are discussed. It would assuage my own feelings that even the guys who deign to worry themselves over 'legitimate' female esports are looking at them like they are under glass. They probably just want to play.
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This hypothetical male wouldn't have gotten a team sponsorship, or anywhere near the level of support ...
Is this actually true? Can someone come up with a couple examples of some unknowns who beat some well-known pro gamers in a tournament, and didn't find a team shortly after? This is something that's quite frequently claimed, but I haven't seen anyone include an example, and I don't follow tournaments or pros enough to verify it; I don't even know where to start looking.
On the other hand, every time a female pro gamer joins a team, there is a lot of discussion about whether or not she's good enough or not, or "I haven't seen her play but I bet she's just hired for her looks like all other female pro gamers", and of course, "She's only hired because she is female, [the team] should have hired a more deserving male instead". When a male pro gamer joins a team, the comments are all positive (unless there was some previous drama surrounding him), and no one says that someone better should have been hired instead. Apparently, if you're a girl, even getting to Grandmaster in your region is not good enough, because it's easy to get into Grandmaster in your (non-Korean) region so it doesn't count.
Overall, it feels like the community is unwelcoming towards females who end up in the spotlight.
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On April 19 2012 21:38 chocopan wrote:
With the "what are these teams doing wrong" aspect, well, they are choosing women they consider "have potential", who also happen to be cute; rather than signing up women who have already demonstrated their skill (the way it works with boys). Stephano is cute as all get out but that wasn't what got him his team.
The problem is that there simply aren't female players performing at the highest level. As a team, you can recruit a cute female gamer who's in masters or you can recruit a non-cute female gamer who's in masters. That is essentially your choice. None of them have performed well in male-inclusive tournaments... Flo (or even Ailuj) may win one or two matches in the MLG open bracket if they draw some scrubs, but both go out to known players. Scarlett is the first female player that I know of who has really beaten some known people... and she immediately got picked up by a team.
Switching back to a more general response, I do agree that it was a mistake for Slayers to pick up Eve. She started off at too low of a level relative to her peers and really hasn't made visible progress. I don't know what sort of training she's getting, but it doesn't seem like she's getting proper training (or else she just can't handle it). I feel like any player on a team like Slayers should be competing in ESVs, KSLs, Playhems, and similar tournaments and I don't think she's competing in those. That's seriously dissapointing. If anything, I think that sort of pickup actually hurts the female scene. It makes females feel like tokens (cheerleaders, mascots, etc), not like players.
However, a cute Aphrodite or a Flo (yes, she's pretty cute) is approximately the top level female gamer. That's the best you get, whether you like it or not. You can accept them as they are (currently weaker than their peers) and recruit them anyways in the hope that the potential turns into legit wins, or you can ignore them and not support female gaming at all. I think your best bet to bring females into the game is to go with it. Get them into the ESVs, KSL, Playhems, and even some open brackets of various major tournaments where they can pick up some wins. Get those replays and have your own in-house crew cast the games where your girls are competitive with the guys. That's the type of thing that can inspire and improve the female scene.
As for Scarlett, that's an interesting case. I do wonder if Scarlett may actually hurt the female scene. Imagine being a girlfriend of a SC2 fan who is trying to get you into SC2. He shows you this girl, Scarlett, who can compete with the guys. Except you notice something odd about Scarlett (as a whole lot of people did), and then your boyfriend admits that Scarlett is transgender. So, essentially, the best female was born as a male. Do you really think a girlfriend or just some other young girl is going to be inspired by that or does it reinforce the stereotype of the game being dominated by males, no matter how they live their lives?
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On April 19 2012 19:32 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 19:23 Ruscour wrote:On April 19 2012 19:20 Zanno wrote:
you are aware Scarlett is a dude right
that's not even a rumor
i do not have any bias against transgenders at all but i do not think Scarlett qualifies as a victory towards female recognition in competitive starcraft Scarlett is female. I am aware she is transgendered. There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male, therefore there is no reason why she couldn't be considered a success for the female SC2 scene. EDIT: This will be the only reply I make about this issue. Please don't discuss it here, it undermines the point I'm trying to make. Of course it undermines the point you're trying to make There's a large body of literature out there that shows that the male brain and female brain develop differently and as a result there are certain problems that males are better equipped to deal with and certain problems that females are better equipped to deal with Undergoing sex reassignment surgery does not magically undo two decades of the human body's growth as a male and if you are going to ignore this then I don't know what to say
Yeah well, people used to have the same machist idiotic reasoning in chess, and then came Judit Polgar (and her sisters), who has demolished everybody since she is 6, has been one of the greatest prodigy child in history of chess and has been ranked as high as world number 8, having defeated world champions or former world champions Karpov, Anand, Kasparov, Spasky, Smilsov, Topalov, Ponomariov, Khalifman and Razhimdzdhanov.
And believe me it takes more skill, cold logic (that's a male thinng according to your sexist stuff, no?), and hability to fight nervously and emotionally than any video game. To be chess world number 8 requires more of "manish" qualities than to you would need to be a better Starcraft 2 player than MVP, Marine Kings, FruitDealer and Stephano put together.
Notice that Judit Polgar has always refused to compete in women only events. Her sister was female world champion for years at the end of the 90's though, although she sucks enormously compared to Judit who is a stellar player.
I agree with OP. Female being there because they are hot or glamour (hello Tossgirl btw) is just making the gender issue worse.
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On April 19 2012 21:36 Linwelin wrote:
Eve is masters now and Aphrodite did beat a few "low-mid tier NA pros" on ladder
Aphrodite GM on NA o:
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you forgot  Aphrodite of startale i think, she has the best of both worlds: she is really skilled, really good (high masters on KR and GM on NA) and aphrodite is beautiful. Flo is also amazing, she's beautiful too and also really good, high masters on KR and NA. also why the mention of flo's feet?
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On April 19 2012 21:36 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 21:30 Sickkiee wrote:
Pretty sure that ST Aphrodite would be better than Scarlett IMO. Not to mention it took Aphrodite like... 1-2months to get masters in KR, with the help of Rainbow of course.
I'd say if Aphrodite got serious about going to international tournies, which is super hard for her I'd assume, she would beat a lot of the 'top' NA players.
Aphrodite also said the reason why SlayerS hasn't played Eve, is cause shes only low-mid diamond level, and that a Aphrodite vs Eve showmatch would only be a one sided domination in her favour. \
Now, you can say that ST and SlayerS are doing it wrong; but how so? They are supporting female programmers, no matter the skill level - to encourage players like Scarlett and others to come out of the woodwork's, to beat DOWN the stereotype of programmers only making it big are male. Eve is masters now and Aphrodite did beat a few "low-mid tier NA pros" on ladder
I wouldn't call those guys pro's.
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As much as I don't want it to be, there is still the big question of biology.
You would never expect a female to compete on the same level as a male in a physical sport like football(whichever football you want), baseball, basketball, etc. Men and women are separate for a reason. There can be notable exceptions for this, but generally men dominate competitive environments if the genders are mixed.
For me, personally, the jury is still out on this regarding how it relates to Starcraft or "esports." Not enough women have given it an honest attempt for it to be a fair comparison. We could get into why not enough women have tried, but honestly that will spin ad nausem into societal norms, expectations, and probably back again to biology. Scarlett would seem like a possible execption to this except, crap, biologically speaking, she is a male. That isn't to denegrate Scarlett or anything of that nature (I have no problem accepting her as female in terms of "gender"), but if the discussion is strictly biology, that only seems to reinforce the idea that this is a place were male biology thrives.
I don't care about race or sex or gender with regards to Starcraft, I want to see the best Starcraft possible. Not only do I not care if it is a Korean or any other race/nationality representing the top level of play, I don't care whether it is a male or female. However, this goes both ways. I don't want to watch sub-standard Starcraft, just because a woman is playing it. That isn't for me.
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On April 19 2012 23:49 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 21:36 Linwelin wrote:On April 19 2012 21:30 Sickkiee wrote:
Pretty sure that ST Aphrodite would be better than Scarlett IMO. Not to mention it took Aphrodite like... 1-2months to get masters in KR, with the help of Rainbow of course.
I'd say if Aphrodite got serious about going to international tournies, which is super hard for her I'd assume, she would beat a lot of the 'top' NA players.
Aphrodite also said the reason why SlayerS hasn't played Eve, is cause shes only low-mid diamond level, and that a Aphrodite vs Eve showmatch would only be a one sided domination in her favour. \
Now, you can say that ST and SlayerS are doing it wrong; but how so? They are supporting female programmers, no matter the skill level - to encourage players like Scarlett and others to come out of the woodwork's, to beat DOWN the stereotype of programmers only making it big are male. Eve is masters now and Aphrodite did beat a few "low-mid tier NA pros" on ladder I wouldn't call those guys pro's.
Destiny? I think people consider him a pro
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On April 19 2012 22:34 RenSC2 wrote:
As for Scarlett, that's an interesting case. I do wonder if Scarlett may actually hurt the female scene. Imagine being a girlfriend of a SC2 fan who is trying to get you into SC2. He shows you this girl, Scarlett, who can compete with the guys. Except you notice something odd about Scarlett (as a whole lot of people did), and then your boyfriend admits that Scarlett is transgender. So, essentially, the best female was born as a male. Do you really think a girlfriend or just some other young girl is going to be inspired by that or does it reinforce the stereotype of the game being dominated by males, no matter how they live their lives?
To be honest with you, I'm not a big fan of Starcraft 2 and at most I'll just click on the results spoilers in GSL threads if I'm curious who won even though I'll typically have no idea who played. However, Scarlett's IPL4 run was the first time I ever really followed a Starcraft 2 tournament closely. So my answer to you would be no, not at all.
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I look forward to three things: the day we no longer need the identified "female" in front of "programer"; the day when people can talk about (female) programers without any reference to their appearance or attractiveness*; and the day that Scarlett could be a eSports presenter on stage, in glamorous dress, and not a single person take issue with it.
*Will never happen, because, as much as people continue to deny it, image and aesthetic matters - to male and female programers alike.
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i think this is more of a "finding hidden talent" not the gender thing. There are a ton of gms/masters that are really good but as u can see they never had a chance to make a name for themselves. scarlett got a chance and now look at her position
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On April 19 2012 23:00 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 19:32 Zanno wrote:On April 19 2012 19:23 Ruscour wrote:On April 19 2012 19:20 Zanno wrote:
you are aware Scarlett is a dude right
that's not even a rumor
i do not have any bias against transgenders at all but i do not think Scarlett qualifies as a victory towards female recognition in competitive starcraft Scarlett is female. I am aware she is transgendered. There is absolutely no advantage gained in StarCraft from being male, therefore there is no reason why she couldn't be considered a success for the female SC2 scene. EDIT: This will be the only reply I make about this issue. Please don't discuss it here, it undermines the point I'm trying to make. Of course it undermines the point you're trying to make There's a large body of literature out there that shows that the male brain and female brain develop differently and as a result there are certain problems that males are better equipped to deal with and certain problems that females are better equipped to deal with Undergoing sex reassignment surgery does not magically undo two decades of the human body's growth as a male and if you are going to ignore this then I don't know what to say Yeah well, people used to have the same machist idiotic reasoning in chess, and then came Judit Polgar (and her sisters), who has demolished everybody since she is 6, has been one of the greatest prodigy child in history of chess and has been ranked as high as world number 8, having defeated world champions or former world champions Karpov, Anand, Kasparov, Spasky, Smilsov, Topalov, Ponomariov, Khalifman and Razhimdzdhanov. Yes, then came Judit Polgar, and then came...who? Yifan? Not yet, at any rate.
Without making speculative statements about why males thus far have the competitive edge in chess and in Starcraft, it's hard to deny that currently they do—and one proof of that is that people still feel the need to hold separate female-only events. With regard to chess, Judit Polgar is the exception that proves the rule: yes, she cracked the overall top 10 for a while—and she's the only female ever to come close to doing so. With regard to Starcraft—well, look at how the OP, even as he theorizes that there ought to be no disadvantage to being female, admits that, Scarlett aside, no girl has actually been "good enough to be considered a competitor in her own right".
And as for Scarlett, well, Scarlett is transgendered, and without getting into questions of etiquette, I don't think you can entirely ignore that fact if the discussion is about comparing female gamers to male gamers. Whatever the reason is that males have generally dominated the top of the Starcraft scene, it's certainly the case that they have—and so long as that remains an unexplained fact, I don't see how you can blithely assume that someone born male (and perhaps still biologically male? I don't know), with all of the biological and cultural things that go along with that is wholly representative of people born female, with all of the biological and cultural things that go along with that. The pronoun you use to refer to Scarlett is one thing; the inferences you draw from Scarlett's success are something else entirely. In my opinion, you won't be able to prove something about the legitimacy of the non-transgender female scene until a non-transgendered female has had a legitimate level of success.
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On April 19 2012 19:05 Ruscour wrote:
I say similar because it's not quite the same. Female tournaments don't exist to bring in more female gamers, female gamers aren't exactly much of a population. In my eyes, I see it as the best opportunity you're gonna get to drag your girlfriend into SC2 (aside from showing how handsome SaSe is). Girls are intimidated by how male-dominated things are, seeing female competitors is encouraging. The Girls of StarCraft Facebook group and community is great, really doing great things for the female scene, and female-only competition engages not only those already in that community, but helps bring people in as well.
Sure about that? I know plenty of girls who play regardless of who is a poster-child of a competition. My own girlfriend plays because she thinks the game is fun. She would even go to an MLG because I showed her how entertaining the tournaments are.
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Actually, you could say there is an advantage in being male, I know it won't be taken nicely by women but they just plainly get frustrated easier than men when it comes to grinding games. Grinding games, is an essential part of improving, along with the thought process and being able to view your own replays YOU lost. This imo, is the biggest difference. Dexterity wise, there is no reason a female can't preform 400 actions per minute, yet they just don't have the will power generally to achieve this feat because of what?
So imho, it's not a physical aspect, it's entirely mental. Men are not smarter than women, but they tend to grind out negative things easier than women do.
Also, on the topic of women gaming, this is my true opinion and I hope not to be banned for it, that recently the girls who have been picked up by major teams have simply been mascots for the team. "sponsor, we have female gamers, we are gender neutral pick me pick me" where MANY MANY MANY other players who are FAR superior could qualify to take that persons place. If anything, it's completely against women's equality to place them unfairly at the top.
After that though, Scarlett (boy/girl/transgender) PROVED herself worthy of being a good solid pro player, you don't beat bumblebee (code a) demuslim and take a game off Oz (Code s) lightly. No other "professional" girl gamer has even come close to that, in fact they made a mockery of the last girl gamer I saw playing live, she got decimated 0-2 then 0-2 again in games that looked completely out of place of the scene.
So, here's where it is for me. Place people where they deserve to go, if a female is better than a male, place her in his shoes but don't give them places they haven't come close to earn.
All that being said, go Scarlett!
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On April 19 2012 21:12 chocopan wrote:
Interesting thread.
Rereading through it I guess one future I most definitely do -not- want for sc2 is one in which teams have 1 or 2 cute girls in a sort of PR function, and then other girls do interviews and stuff.
It's all well and good to say "women can decide for themselves what jobs to take" etc, and obviously that's true; but if the final outcome is that sc2 has the image of a "mans sport", where the women are just there for color, well, that would be a lost opportunity I think. I don't expect to see a 50/50 gender split in gaming any time soon; nor do I think it's appropriate for me to go around criticising women who are lucky enough to be born attractive who manage to get X or Y job on A or B team for whatever reason. My only concern is just about the image this new sport is creating and where that might leave the game in a few years time (and, by extension, gamer culture generally).
(For this reason I am 150% behind Scarlett, as a genuine potential talent.)
50/50 split between female and male exists in almost no competetive sports/games.
if you look at gaming for example the most female gamers are where the most highest degree of casualness exists(WoW)
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On April 20 2012 01:11 qrs wrote:And as for Scarlett, well, Scarlett is transgendered, and without getting into questions of etiquette, I don't think you can entirely ignore that fact if the discussion is about comparing female gamers to male gamers. Whatever the reason is that males have generally dominated the top of the Starcraft scene, it's certainly the case that they have—and so long as that remains an unexplained fact, I don't see how you can blithely assume that someone born male (and perhaps still biologically male? I don't know), with all of the biological and cultural things that go along with that is wholly representative of people born female, with all of the biological and cultural things that go along with that. The pronoun you use to refer to Scarlett is one thing; the inferences you draw from Scarlett's success are something else entirely. In my opinion, you won't be able to prove something about the legitimacy of the non-transgender female scene until a non-transgendered female has had a legitimate level of success.
You're right in that being transgendered adds somewhat unknown variables to the situation and that you can't leap to the conclusion that female pro-gaming is only set back by the lack of participation (though I think it is).
However, it isn't completely dismissible evidence either. As everything in science that has multiple fields who want to claim that they are the cause, transgender research is heavily debated between disciplines (sociology, biology, psychology, etc). Similar to the gay/lesbian "cause" issue, there is no clear answer and it is likely that the truth lies in multiple scientific fields instead of just one. This all said, there is a known connection between pre-natal androgen levels in the uterus and transgender issues.
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