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I guess I'm lucky that I've only ever known two people who committed suicide.
The first guy I'd known from biology class in ninth grade. He was a football player on our school's team; it was a bad team, laughingstock of the entire district, and as far as I can remember, we never won our Homecoming games while I was there. I didn't know him well. Overall, I just thought of him as one of the more cheerful, less jockish sort of football players. He was very sporty of course, but also fairly bright and had a nice smile; sometimes he would make idiotic comments and questions in class, but he played it for the laughs than for an actual response from the teacher. He also had a way of carrying himself and walking that reminded me of a lumberjack, to be honest. I never really saw him again after ninth grade's bio class, except in the halls, where he'd sometimes say hi to me.
He committed suicide in my tenth grade year. Overdose by pills. Everyone was shocked. So was I, even though i didn't know him well; he was a cheery sort of guy, after all, but I think we all know by now that tons of depressed teens can put on a cheerful face but feel like shit inside.
My mom, in any case, called me this morning, about 30 minutes before I started writing this blog -- 8:48 AM -- and told me she was flying back to Taiwan today because my uncle (in his 40s) had committed suicide and my grandmother was in the hospital. She's flying back to help take care of affairs and to maybe convince my grandmother to come to the US with her. We'll see if that works.
There's a bit of a story behind this, by the way. My uncle is, in the words of my mother, someone who has never grown up. No college degree, he basically floated through jobs and a few girlfriends throughout most of his life, in between getting into fights in the streets when he was in HS. When I was younger, I also had the impression he was something of a player, but that was because my younger like ... 7-9 year old self was just bitter about him breaking up with his first gf, whom I'd taken a liking to. I was pretty horrible to his second gf, but little bitter kids will be little bitter kids. Anyways, he actually has only really had three gfs, so not that much of a player after all. He smoked (tried to quit several times, I would always tell him to whenever I saw him) and was unfortunately a bit looser with his wallet than he should have been. He was also a lot of fun to be around though -- very chill, knew all the good food places in Taipei, was a little too eager to buy stuff for me ... overall, great with kids, which is why I loved him so much ever since I was really young.
The last time I saw him was around three years ago when my grandfather died of lung disease. My mother and I flew back to Taiwan to help with affairs and to comfort my grandmother, who was very badly hit by my grandfather's death, crying every night and asking us what she's supposed to do now that he's gone. My uncle at the time had a pretty stable job and a third gf; she was a flight attendant, very nice and polite. There'd been talks about the two of them getting married and them having a kid. It looked like he was getting things into order, finally growing up a little, as my mom put it.
Fast forward one year, he has a stroke, loses most motor abilities, and loses his job and gf as a result. Rehabilitation is successful though; he can walk again. But it's hard to find another job; if you're over 40 in Taiwan and unemployed, dear fuck, it is hard to get a job. Every time I ask my mom how he is, she tells me that he's still job-searching and had moved in with my grandmother again; in fact, he'd pretty much always lived with my grandmother.
Fast forward another year, and he's dead.
In a way, his suicide makes a lot of sense when you look at his life, but still I can't help but wonder what the fuck was going through his mind when he decided on this course of action. If nothing else, he should've been thinking about my fucking grandmother, who's still not over my grandfather's death and is constantly worried about my mom in the US (long story short, my mom is sickly and severely underweight) and is basically, at this point, chronically depressed. I guess he thought he was relieving her of his burden or something, but just because I can understand his reasoning doesn't mean I don't think it's still fucking stupid and the most selfish thing he's ever done in his life. She still cries every night, you see.
Anyways, I don't know how he went; I didn't ask my mom that. He was my favorite uncle though. It hurts a lot, because I really loved him just as I really loved my grandfather, but that's life, and it must go on. I just hope that my grandmother's strong enough to carry through.
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I'm really sorry to hear this... I wish you and your family the best. I can't begin to understand what it's like to know someone who has committed suicide, so the best I can do is wish your family well and hope that you'll find strength in each other to carry on.
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i feel for your loss. it's always hard to lose someone you care about. be strong and carry on
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You don't live for the sake of other people. The only thing that everyone has, is their own life. You can do with it what you want.
Does that mean suicide is not a problem? Of course not. For many people it is an impulsive action for temporary problems, but some people simply make the logical choice that they don't want to live anymore.
What is so wrong with that? Selfish? No more selfish than demanding a person continues living through god knows what mental stress because god forbid you are faced with anything but good news.
I don't know the guy, but being 40 and being forced to live back with your mother/grandmother? I wouldn't want that either. Not that I think suicide is a good solution to that, in fact if you want to throw your life away then there are more fun ways of doing it, but it seems he did.
But to call what he did selfish? That just shows a lack of any real empathy. You don't know what the guy was going through in his head.
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Poor guy. At least he feels no physical or mental pain now.
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On April 05 2012 00:37 zalz wrote:
You don't live for the sake of other people. The only thing that everyone has, is their own life. You can do with it what you want.
Does that mean suicide is not a problem? Of course not. For many people it is an impulsive action for temporary problems, but some people simply make the logical choice that they don't want to live anymore.
What is so wrong with that? Selfish? No more selfish than demanding a person continues living through god knows what mental stress because god forbid you are faced with anything but good news.
I don't know the guy, but being 40 and being forced to live back with your mother/grandmother? I wouldn't want that either. Not that I think suicide is a good solution to that, in fact if you want to throw your life away then there are more fun ways of doing it, but it seems he did.
But to call what he did selfish? That just shows a lack of any real empathy. You don't know what the guy was going through in his head.
I could not disagree with this more, as it is the sort of "cult of the individual" bullshit that is taking over conservative politics here in the United States. Was his uncle his own man? Sure. But, he was also an uncle, a brother, a son, and your insistence that his acts were unselfish amounts to a denial of just how interconnected we all are. If you prefer more concrete terms, he lived off the good grace off his parents for a large portion of his life, he at least owes them the time and consideration owed for all those years when it comes to a decision to end his own life. I would argue that you are the one without "real empathy", as you just summarily dismissed this poor man's blog as selfish in and of itself. My condolences OP, suicide, aka absolute despair, is a horrible thing.
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On April 05 2012 00:49 farvacola wrote:
I could not disagree with this more, as it is the sort of "cult of the individual" bullshit that is taking over conservative politics here in the United States.
You may call it the "cult of the individual" if you like, but it is still simply individualism at its most basic.
If your own life doesn't even belong to you, then what does? People should be allowed to decide their own fate in life. Nobody has to take part in this carnival of life.
Was his uncle his own man? Sure. But, he was also an uncle, a brother, a son, and your insistence that his acts were unselfish amounts to a denial of just how interconnected we all are.
Don't see it is a denial of how interconnected we are.
See it as just how much I value the freedom to decide your own life.
I don't make light of the connections that exist between people. I consider them with just as much care as you do. And still, I value the ability to decide your own life more.
If you prefer more concrete terms, he lived off the good grace off his parents for a large portion of his life, he at least owes them the time and consideration owed for all those years when it comes to a decision to end his own life.
Argueing whether he has the right to kill himself or not is a very different argument from the semantics that are involved with killing yourself.
Who knows, perhaps he did leave them a very extensive letter that explained everything. But discussing that would be pointless, because even if he called them and told them what he was doing, or left an extensive suicide letter, you wouldn't view his right to end his life any differently.
So, we could discuss the proper etiquete for killing yourself, but it would be a pointless debate to have, because even if we agree on the proper routine, you would still argue that it is essentially wrong.
I would argue that you are the one without "real empathy", as you just summarily dismissed this poor man's blog as selfish in and of itself.
You could, but only if you had no understanding of either the word empathy or selfish.
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Going back to same position he was before not having job/gf finaly decided his faith. I guess he must been thinking about this for years (10 or more) but family values delayed it for long time. Trust me, i know.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 05 2012 00:49 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 00:37 zalz wrote:
You don't live for the sake of other people. The only thing that everyone has, is their own life. You can do with it what you want.
Does that mean suicide is not a problem? Of course not. For many people it is an impulsive action for temporary problems, but some people simply make the logical choice that they don't want to live anymore.
What is so wrong with that? Selfish? No more selfish than demanding a person continues living through god knows what mental stress because god forbid you are faced with anything but good news.
I don't know the guy, but being 40 and being forced to live back with your mother/grandmother? I wouldn't want that either. Not that I think suicide is a good solution to that, in fact if you want to throw your life away then there are more fun ways of doing it, but it seems he did.
But to call what he did selfish? That just shows a lack of any real empathy. You don't know what the guy was going through in his head. I could not disagree with this more, as it is the sort of "cult of the individual" bullshit that is taking over conservative politics here in the United States. Was his uncle his own man? Sure. But, he was also an uncle, a brother, a son, and your insistence that his acts were unselfish amounts to a denial of just how interconnected we all are. If you prefer more concrete terms, he lived off the good grace off his parents for a large portion of his life, he at least owes them the time and consideration owed for all those years when it comes to a decision to end his own life. I would argue that you are the one without "real empathy", as you just summarily dismissed this poor man's blog as selfish in and of itself. My condolences OP, suicide, aka absolute despair, is a horrible thing.
Suicide is generally connected to your own self-worth, not simply the state of your life. As someone who's gone through cycles of thinking about it, I'd imagine his thinking was that he was a terrible burden on the rest of his family and his death, no matter how painful in the short term, would provide greater benefit for them in the long term. I'm sure he also thought about exactly what you said and being selfish, and it further convinced him that he was a terrible person and didn't deserve their good grace.
It's not your own satisfaction with life. It's how you perceive the impact your life has on other people.
Anyways, I'm sorry for your loss. :/
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On April 05 2012 01:20 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 00:49 farvacola wrote:On April 05 2012 00:37 zalz wrote:
You don't live for the sake of other people. The only thing that everyone has, is their own life. You can do with it what you want.
Does that mean suicide is not a problem? Of course not. For many people it is an impulsive action for temporary problems, but some people simply make the logical choice that they don't want to live anymore.
What is so wrong with that? Selfish? No more selfish than demanding a person continues living through god knows what mental stress because god forbid you are faced with anything but good news.
I don't know the guy, but being 40 and being forced to live back with your mother/grandmother? I wouldn't want that either. Not that I think suicide is a good solution to that, in fact if you want to throw your life away then there are more fun ways of doing it, but it seems he did.
But to call what he did selfish? That just shows a lack of any real empathy. You don't know what the guy was going through in his head. I could not disagree with this more, as it is the sort of "cult of the individual" bullshit that is taking over conservative politics here in the United States. Was his uncle his own man? Sure. But, he was also an uncle, a brother, a son, and your insistence that his acts were unselfish amounts to a denial of just how interconnected we all are. If you prefer more concrete terms, he lived off the good grace off his parents for a large portion of his life, he at least owes them the time and consideration owed for all those years when it comes to a decision to end his own life. I would argue that you are the one without "real empathy", as you just summarily dismissed this poor man's blog as selfish in and of itself. My condolences OP, suicide, aka absolute despair, is a horrible thing. Suicide is generally connected to your own self-worth, not simply the state of your life. As someone who's gone through cycles of thinking about it, I'd imagine his thinking was that he was a terrible burden on the rest of his family and his death, no matter how painful in the short term, would provide greater benefit for them in the long term. I'm sure he also thought about exactly what you said and being selfish, and it further convinced him that he was a terrible person and didn't deserve their good grace.
You are most definitely right, but I think this ends up being exactly the problem. An inward gaze and constant desire to self-appraise one's worth becomes a singular mode of action and thought, effectively obfuscating all other possible perspectives on validating life, and it ends up spiraling out of control and ending with suicide or some other momentary exercise of supreme control. And to Zalz, I share your love of ultimate control of ones' self, but there is a big difference between being in control and exercising that control.
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On April 05 2012 00:37 zalz wrote:
But to call what he did selfish? That just shows a lack of any real empathy.
You're an asshole, suicide's just about the most selfish thing anyone can do. Show some empathy to the mother, nephew and anyone else who loved this guy.
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Sorry for your loss, hope things work out for your grandmother.
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Sorry to hear that, best wishes and good luck to you.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 05 2012 01:51 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 00:37 zalz wrote:
But to call what he did selfish? That just shows a lack of any real empathy. You're an asshole, suicide's just about the most selfish thing anyone can do. Show some empathy to the mother, nephew and anyone else who loved this guy.
This is really a critical misunderstanding of it. :/
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Yea, it sucks ass when a family member dies; especially a loved one. Reminds me of my uncle who died because of a bad liver. (he was an alcoholic)
luckily before his death he seemed to "change" into a different person. He seemed more... calm about everything. He apologized for the bad things he did in life, and days later he passed. He was one of my favorite uncles to, he had an awesome sense of humor that I wont forget.
Well anyways, I'm very sorry for your loss. Just remember the good times, and if you don't have any, think positive of him.
It always makes me feel better when I lost family members.
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On April 05 2012 00:37 zalz wrote:
You don't live for the sake of other people. The only thing that everyone has, is their own life. You can do with it what you want.
Does that mean suicide is not a problem? Of course not. For many people it is an impulsive action for temporary problems, but some people simply make the logical choice that they don't want to live anymore.
What is so wrong with that? Selfish? No more selfish than demanding a person continues living through god knows what mental stress because god forbid you are faced with anything but good news.
I don't know the guy, but being 40 and being forced to live back with your mother/grandmother? I wouldn't want that either. Not that I think suicide is a good solution to that, in fact if you want to throw your life away then there are more fun ways of doing it, but it seems he did.
But to call what he did selfish? That just shows a lack of any real empathy. You don't know what the guy was going through in his head.
Your response is highly ironic for three reasons in particular. I hope you can see why.
As for myself, I am not a very empathetic person. I won't deny that -- I don't even view it as an insult or even a fault, because it is something I've acknowledged for years now, and there are both good things and bad things about being unable to empathize with other people -- and a large part of it is because I have a narrow emotional range.
In any case, I'm not sure you understand what I am saying. I'm not saying he didn't have the right to end his life, but just as he has the right to do anything he wants, I have the right to judge him (and judge him harshly) for his actions. I don't even care to debate about whether or not suicide is "wrong," falling back on your words here. That is a complete non-issue for me; suicide to me is not about morality. I think it is selfish, though, because I prioritize certain values above others, and apparently I prioritize differently than you do. That is also all there is to it.
Well, that and the fact that I think it was a fucking misinformed decision. Which doesn't mean I don't love him or even that I'm angry at him, just that I think what he did was moronic for a number of reasons and circumstances that you aren't aware of that have to do with my family.
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I doubt he commited suicide on a whim. If you say someone should live for the sake of others, it's okay I guess.
But when is the time to kill yourself? I do not know much about depression but I have been pretty tired a few times. The type of tiredness where you seek for a getaway everywhere, every second. In the end a fact remains: the world isn't getting any better, atleast not anytime soon. There is no price for survival, there is nothing to gain in hanging around for just another day.
Maybe the only thing keeping him alive for a year was his family, maybe that kept him alive for three years, maybe it was ten years. In the end it seems little different from abuse, emotional slavery.
Maybe I'm just a kid though.
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On April 05 2012 00:37 zalz wrote:
You don't live for the sake of other people. The only thing that everyone has, is their own life. You can do with it what you want.
Does that mean suicide is not a problem? Of course not. For many people it is an impulsive action for temporary problems, but some people simply make the logical choice that they don't want to live anymore.
What is so wrong with that? Selfish? No more selfish than demanding a person continues living through god knows what mental stress because god forbid you are faced with anything but good news.
I don't know the guy, but being 40 and being forced to live back with your mother/grandmother? I wouldn't want that either. Not that I think suicide is a good solution to that, in fact if you want to throw your life away then there are more fun ways of doing it, but it seems he did.
But to call what he did selfish? That just shows a lack of any real empathy. You don't know what the guy was going through in his head.
He was most likely depressed. If he was depressed, then he had depression. If he had depression, then he had one of the symptoms (I forget the precise name) which causes breakdown of your ability to... well... be reasonable. When I was suicidally depressed, I bragged to my mom about how clever I was with hiding both my depression and the knife which I was trying to kill myself with.
Selfish is a wrong choice of words, I'll admit that, but Jesus Christ, he shouldn't commit suicide in the circumstances he was in. He doesn't have the right to fuck over so many people while in an unreasonable state of mind.
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On April 05 2012 04:09 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
I doubt he commited suicide on a whim. If you say someone should live for the sake of others, it's okay I guess.
But when is the time to kill yourself? I do not know much about depression but I have been pretty tired a few times. The type of tiredness where you seek for a getaway everywhere, every second. In the end a fact remains: the world isn't getting any better, atleast not anytime soon. There is no price for survival, there is nothing to gain in hanging around for just another day.
Maybe the only thing keeping him alive for a year was his family, maybe that kept him alive for three years, maybe it was ten years. In the end it seems little different from abuse, emotional slavery.
Maybe I'm just a kid though.
You make it sound like suicide is some kind of rational response to a bleak existence. This is almost never the case. It's almost always a result of mental illness. It's pretty rare for someone to have such a miserable life that they're actually better off dead; but sadly it's not that unusual for someone to be afflicted with mental illness and then come to believe that no one cares about them and they would be better off not being alive.
To the OP, I would encourage you to think of this as being similar to your uncle dying of a serious illness. He wasn't thinking clearly when he did this, and it doesn't say anything about how he felt about relationships with you or others in his family. It just means that he was sick and he lost a battle with a crippling disease.
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Depression is a very serious problem that noone who hasnt been through can really understand, personally I haven't had any real depression but I have manic-depressives in my family and family friends have been through deep depressions and I've spoken to them about it to try and gauge some kind of concept of how your mind works in these situations.
Ultimately I've concluded that you really can't attempt to understand the thoughts or rationale of a person in these kind of dark states. I think its perfectly understandable to believe them to be selfish, however I also believe that everyone has a limit and often depression can push that limit to its breaking point.
Now of course we can all sit here and talk about how you can recover from these things, how its a permanent solution to a temporary problem but that rationalising in a healthy mindset, whereas to those who are depressed, who feel compelled (and I feel compelled is the appropriate word) to end their life, all it takes is that one flash of action and its over, they can't reconsider, and to suggest they think rationally is missing the point as they aren't in a rational state of mind.
To OP:
My condolences, death is never easy to deal with, let alone the added complexity of suicide. I hope you can provide support for the people around you who may need it and try to remember that if you ever find yourself in a similar mindset, seek professional help.
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