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My Thoughts on the Orb-EG Incident

Blogs > xlava
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xlava
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States676 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-12 04:15:52
March 11 2012 22:49 GMT
#1
My Thoughts on the Orb-EG Incident
March 11, 2012


Hi everyone, my name is Matt, aka xlava, and I'm a Protoss player on the North American server. This is my first blog post, so I hope you all appreciate it, but take it with a grain of salt, as I am addressing a somewhat controversial topic to which many people hold drastically different opinions. In any event, I love the fact that from what I've seen, this community is the most open and understanding, thank you all for that. So please enjoy, or at the very least, disagree.

A bit about me
For those of you who don't care, just skip
+ Show Spoiler +

I've been playing this game since November of 2010, and have watched professional streams since around January 2011. I started with watching (Z)Destiny, and eventually moved on to professional leagues such as NASL and GSL, and especially MLG, and I have seen a lot of controversy, amazing performances, amazing personalities and great people since that time.

I started off as a lowly bronze player back in the day, churning out team games and the like, avoiding the scary 1v1 ladder, and pretty much massing Void Rays every game because a friend told me that the Protoss air force was similar to the GDI Firehawk back in Command and Conquer 3 TW.

At this point I started watching more pro streams, trying to get better. As a Protoss, I began to watch (P)Minigun and (P)HuK, as well as on occasion learning from (P)iNcontroL and various other Koreans ((P)MC is a hilarious streamer!) Eventually I grew out of the non-1v1 phase and forced myself up to high masters, where I sit today.

I play casually while trying to juggle college level work and the tatters of a Social Life and Sleep, although I find myself sacrificing Sleep most of all. My existence is kinda sad and monotonous at the moment, and I like to use video games as an outlet for frustration, as I'M sure many of us do on occasion. Luckily I have great friends, great teachers, a great dad and sister and supportive family, so things are decent and hectic, but bearable.

TLDR: I can't wait for college.


Context prefacing my analysis
Before reading another word, please read up on the facts in the following pages
  1. Orb Dismissed from EG Broadcasts
  2. Orb'S Response / Statement
  3. Orb'S Liquipedia page / EG'S Liquipedia page

____________________


Introduction
A few preliminary thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +

I have a few serious issues with What has just occurred between the professional team Evil Geniuses and their newly hired and now newly fired EG Masters Cup anchor orb. Prefacing my argument, Which delves much deeper than a controversial exchange Which will likely be forgotten by most in a few years, I would like to make the following points.

First of all, I consider myself a neutral party, unbiased towards both EG and Orb. I had always known orb as a decent players/streamer, and in my opinion, a solid up and coming caster. I had never known about his racist comments, and had judged him based on the facts available. With regards to EG, I have neither inherent positive nor negative feelings towards them. I love the fact that they're an up and coming foreigner team, and I think its interesting how similar they are to Google or the Yankees, assimilating those who they see as top players to create an international powerhouse. They have proven again and again to be smart businessmen (and women, if we include Anna), and I respect them for that. I also Want to mention that I have no ill feelings against Evil Geniuses, or Mr. Alex Garfield (or Orb, for that matter), even after this incident. Once again, if they feel they needed to make such a decision, then so be it. Its their business, their reputation and their caster, and they can do with all three as they wish as long as it is lawful. I am posting this because although I hold no ill feelings (I'm not the one to hold a grudge), I am somewhat disturbed and fundamentally disagree with the actions EG has taken in regards to this incident.


Disclaimers
Very important, please read!!!
+ Show Spoiler +

Note: from here on until further stated otherwise, racial slurs/comments could be present in the text, pictures or links. I advice anyone who might be offended by said racist comments to either avert their eyes and skip over/not read the rest of the blog, or understand two things and keep reading: as a community, we must accept that evil/evil comments exists in the world and on the internet, and that the only way to unite against it and destroy it is to face it and understand it (and that means looking at it), and also that I am not a racist and I do not support anything that Orb said, but I also have no problem saying things as they are, and that includes using profane language when in the appropriate context. Therefore, please take everything I say in context and not otherwise.

Additionally, the views and opinions expressed here are my own. I have no association with Team Liquid other than just being a friendly poster who occasionally helps people out with replays or comments on an occurrence. I have no association with EG, Orb or any other of the parties I mention from here on.

Thank you.


  1. Regarding words, racism, and inherent meaning
    + Show Spoiler +

    The core of my opinion rests on the foundation of what I believe to be offensive, and racist, and this belief naturally differs from Mr. Garfield's, hence, our disagreement on the issue. Let me first take a look at the formal definition of "racist", as a baseline to compare our opinions:

    Racist: a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others.


    Now I read Mr. Garfield's post, and he specifically stated that he does not believe Orb is a racist. That is good, I don't believe he is either. But that's not the point. He is being treated as if what he said was racist, a contradiction in my mind...

    So, I tried searching for what Orb said that was so serious it got him fired from such a prestigious organization, and I found this thread, as well as this Reddit post.

    Pictures
    + Show Spoiler +
    [image loading]
    [image loading]
    [image loading]
    [image loading]


    Very strong words on ladder, that's for sure. The use of the word "nigger" and "faggot" are quite ostentatious to say the least, and understandably could be extremely offensive to the black, homosexual and generally free thinking communities in our viewer base. There is no doubt that Orb was 100% wrong in his actions here.

    Now personally, I cannot say that I can truly understand what it must be like to be called a "nigger," because I'm basically as white as they get. It reminds me of the episode of South Park With Apologies to Jesse Jackson in which Stan tries to understand what its like to be called a nigger, or to hear the word being said, and in the end he finally understands that he can never understand, because he's not black. That's kinda the position I'm in.

    So with that position established, I voice my opinion. Mr. Garfield has a fundamental problem with racist words, which is understandable, and I don't claim know more about racism or its history than a college major with a degree in the subject, but I do know this: We all live in a progressive world in which people need to understand that words are just words, and although they can have serious repercussions, leading from psychological trauma to even death, context and meaning are just as important as, if not more important than the blunt and blind interpretation of the word's face value.

    When I was around five years old, I used to hear my father curse occasionally, and I remember one time in a game of Monopoly with my family, I said the word "fuck" when an enemy player happened to collect taxes from my piece landing on his owned property. My family was appalled, but its not like they disowned me. My father immediately corrected and scolded me, and that was the last time I cursed with company around me, at least until I was old enough to understand what the word meant and when it can be properly used, at which point I didn't use it anyway, for obvious reasons.

    Is the power of a word or phrase truly quantifiable? I'm not sure, but I really don't think it is. Is one curse word more powerful than another? According to popular television, the words "bitch" and "ass" are fair game, whereas "fuck" is reserved for the likes of HBO and a bunch of other assorted channels. How "bad" is "nigger" or "faggot" on that scale? According to Mr. Garfield, its pretty high, probably the highest of the high. But does that give him the right to can a caster for something he did before being hired? Should a CEO's moral compass affect his business decisions?

    The truth
    + Show Spoiler +
    Sorry for those of you who thought I was blindly supporting Orb on this one. That's simply not the case. Facts are facts, life is life. Yes, of course it gives Mr. Garfield the right to make that decision. Should a CEO's moral compass affect his business decisions? That's like asking if we should all behave like machines, when clearly we're all human. That's not even a question, its a statement of fact that is irrefutable. We all let our moral compasses affect our decisions, and when you're the CEO, it doesn't matter if your opponents disagree with you. The fact is that its your company and your decision. I've never questioned that it was Mr. Garfield's right to make the decision to fire Orb, just clarifying that my disagreement lies with the tangible interpretations and morals behind it. Again: I have no problem with moral compasses influencing decision, I suppose I just disagree with the way Mr. Garfield interpreted Orb's actions.


    The point is that I didn't even know what the word "fuck" meant when I said it, and I said it anyway. Is that really so much different than someone saying something profane on ladder? Orb said himself that he was not in the correct state of mind when he said those things on ladder. How different is that Orb from a five year old me?

    I pose another example. Consider Medieval Europe. It was a great time of change and "progress," especially religiously. Remember the Crusades? Actually you shouldn't, as that would be quite odd. Remember learning about the Crusades? When believers in the one true religion declared Holy War on another group of people doing religion wrong? Back in those days, if you said "I don't believe in God," I'm willing to bet people would start accusing you of having sex with the Devil and would subsequently burn you at the stake. If you said "I don't believe in God" now, guess what would happen? Nothing, unless I'm in the middle of a bunch of fundamentalists or in a monastery, and even then the very worst that would happen is perhaps a few harsh words, or maybe even a few kind ones, hoping that you can one day find the light, etc. The point is that inappropriate words and phrases are community and culturally defined. We set our own standards.

    So do racial slurs follow the same rules? I believe they do, but meaning, as I said before, is just as important of taking the word for its face value. If I said "I don't believe in God," during the Medieval times, people wouldn't know if I meant it or didn't. One way or another, I'm sure to be executed or excommunicated and imprisoned. However, I think most of us believe Orb isn't a racist, even Mr. Garfield said that. So what exactly was the meaning behind his words?

    Well simply put, acting along the assumption that Orb is not a racist, there was no meaning. The words were hollow, like hot air balloons. Yes, they were offensive, and unprofessional. But was Orb part of EG when he said these things? No he was not. So professionalism has nothing to do with it, they were just offensive at face value, but I just spent the last... like 10 paragraphs... explaining how although words can be hurtful, we must search for their true meaning and accept them as such. Orb's past was buried and forgotten, only now to be revived due to his interaction with a professional corporation.

    Quickly, I would like to return to the accepted definition of racism. It requires that someone believes what they say; we are assuming Orb did not believe what he said. Both myself and Mr. Garfield have come to the same conclusions that Orb is not a racist. So then conduct wise, Mr. Garfield, as he stated, has a problem with those hurtful words. If that is the case, then I have a problem with someone else on EG, and I think we all know who I'm talking about... that leads me to my second fundamental issue with what has occurred to Orb...


          Summary
    + Show Spoiler +
    Words are words, and calling someone a "nigger" is to some people just as bad as saying "faggot." We can't quantify the strength of curse words and then base meaningful action on it. If you're not a racist and everyone knows it, than how is it right to punish someone who simply stated a few words?


  2. Regarding hypocrisy
    + Show Spoiler +

    So in any event, I think we all know who I was talking about, and that is the player we know as the Gracken, Greg Fields, aka (T)IdrA. He has been part of EG for a long time and is often considered the team ace. He is also considered by many to be the best player on EG, and at one point, the best foreigner in the world. There is no debating that he is an outstanding player, but with that assertion comes another. He is by far one of the most bad mannered and fundamentally angry players out there. Idra is not afraid to speak his mind, and the things on his mind after getting 6 gated or bunker rushed are certainly not pleasant. I would post a plethora of pictures and links here (I actually have a few below), but honestly, if you google "Idra" you'll get such a large number of results on bm alone that I think it should sufficient.

    If that's not enough, we all remember how Idra was banned from TL for 90 days for unprofessional conduct...

    Now although I have never heard Idra say anything along the likes of "nigger," his collection of bad manner in and out of tournaments, and in and out of the game is certainly enough to be comparable to Orb's bad manner on ladder.

    Yes, Idra does bm
    + Show Spoiler +

    MLG Dallas - Idra vs HuK
    Idra vs Strelok
    IPL1 - Idra vs Mana
    Idra calls Cruncher "waste of life". Not a direct link but I think we remember...


    I want to point out two differences between Idra and Orb. Idra is indispensable. He is a lynchpin of EG's player roster and EG needs talent like that in order to be successful. Orb, as we have seen, was dispensable, and so exceptions were made on a management level. This alone is completely understandable, "do as I say not as I do," kind of mentality, and its not like this is a new phenomenon. Parents have been saying it to their kids since the dawn of time, and management in business lives by this creed.

    The real exemplifiying issue and second difference comes from where the misconduct took place. Idra has BMed constantly while on Evil Geniuses. He has cursed at and made fun of other players, and has shown consistent misconduct at professional tournaments (ie: F4 key incident, cursing off MLG's President, saying "fuck off" to HuK in a tournament despite it being warranted). So while carrying the EG banner, he has misrepresented the organization, but has not received what I believe is fair punishment for his actions. I suppose this sort of thing is nothing new. NFL players get pardons when committing crimes in order to return to play earlier. Actors/actresses get the same treatment if I'm not mistaken, but regardless, thats just as wrong.

    Now, Orb had not been part of Evil Geniuses when he said "nigger" and "faggot" on ladder, and yet, these few isolated incidents have gotten Orb fired, and potentially blacklisted, a terrible fate for an up and coming caster. I think from here we can draw our own conclusions, since frankly, there's not much more to say...

    Except for this:

    Whereas Idra has always been up front with his manner (nobody claims that he denies bming, cursing, being a general esports bad boy, etc), it has been brought to my attention that Orb has denied accusations of bming on ladder. This shows us something of his character that before I had obviously not considered enough. Clearly, EG wouldn't want a liar on their roster, but still, is that enough to compete with Idra's collection of bm posts and actions? Come to your own conclusions on this one!
    Thanks to Battleaxe for bringing this to my attention


          Summary
    + Show Spoiler +
    Idra's collective bm while representing EG has been far worse than Orb's bm while not representing anything or anyone but himself. Its wrong on an ethical level to, at the very least, punish them differently.


  3. Regarding the issues with sponsors
    + Show Spoiler +

    I said from the very beginning that this was not a hate on EG post, its simply an analysis combined with my personal opinion. That said, I feel like people don't really understand how complicated the issue with EG's sponsors is with regards to this incident. Basically, EG's sponsors were getting heat from fans angered by Orb's words, and this of course, cascaded out of the sponsors' reception desks and into the EG Lair.

    Now naturally, what would an organization like EG protect out of two choices? A caster or the institution? Obviously, the collective whole is more important than just one individual. The company needs sponsors to survive, get energy drinks, pay its players, pay off the mortgage on the team house, etc. Therefore, if EG's sponsors were under attack, this was the only reasonable plan of action....

    Except for this:

    I feel like this issue was not thought through enough by the EG administration. Consider Orb himself. He is a decent up and coming caster who is very good at what he does and would've added quite a few fans to the viewership of the EG Masters Cup. This keeps money flowing. Since Idra is still on EG, I have come to realize that EG has not seen the same potential in Orb as I do, which is fine, but keeping him while getting sponsors off their back and calming the masses would be a win - win - win. Apparently, EG didn't think that was possible. I personally do think it would've been possible.

    Mr. Garfield's post was full of emotion and hate for racism, and he channeled this hate into making his decision regarding Orb's actions and hence, no more Orb. But what if he had channeled that emotion into the opposite side of the argument. For example, consider if Mr. Garfield had said this instead and not fired Orb:

    I have [list degrees and experiences regarding black history, racism, etc] and absolutely hate anything remotely racist... however, what Orb did was not supported by EG and was done when Orb was not affiliated with EG, he has assured us he is a different person now... [etc] and any further misconduct will be met with a no tolerance policy... [etc]


    I believe this would accomplish all of the directives I had mentioned. First and foremost, it would explain to the people and sponsors that EG does not tolerate racist comments or racism in any form. It does not absolve Orb from his earlier comments, but acknowledges that the past is the past, and that the future is what matters, and if Orb could change his ways, EG would oblige. This would convince the sponsors that EG does not support a racist, because clearly there was no racist to begin with. Hence, the fan's comments to the sponsors would fall on deaf ears, since the sponsors are now satisfied. Secondly, this ultimatum would act as a deterrent for any future bm from any player on EG, as the punishment for representing the team badly would now be fully realized, and the severity of such actions recognized. Orb isn't the only one I've seen bm. EG's iNcontroL has been caught doing it occasionally, and as I said, Idra is notorious for it. Although done in good fun, DeMuslim has hilariously ridiculed cursed off players on his stream. As said, this was done for comedic effect, but where do we draw the line, right?

    I understand that it seems like EG was backed into a corner, and that my above solution, although having a high probability of working, is not guaranteed, and EG took the only course of action that would definitely secure the safety of the collective.


          Summary
    + Show Spoiler +
    Mr. Garfield might have made the wrong decision regarding fairness, but he certainly made the correct decision regarding the security of the company. He did what he needed to do. As Mr. Garfield said, getting sponsors into esports is hard enough. He did what was best for his company and esports alike.



Notable/insightful comments, corrections and deductions
These are responses that provide me with either food for thought, or inform me that I missed something, or should include something I didn't
+ Show Spoiler +
  1. On March 12 2012 09:45 Battleaxe wrote:
    As someone who enjoys reading random responses to drama, this may one of the best I'll ever read. One thing I think you may have missed though is that many were also arguing the fact that Orb denied responsibility of even saying these things in the first place, which paved way for a larger shitstorm then needed once the truth was finally revealed. I wouldn't be shocked if part of EG's decision to dismiss Orb was due to the lying as well, and could to speak to another reason why EG has stuck with Idra: he's owned up to it.




Hostile* points
Notable counterpoints, counterarguments or evidence against my analysis
+ Show Spoiler +


On March 12 2012 12:27 Balgrog wrote:
What I have to say is a mixture of point 2/3.

Yes Idra is very famous for saying "fuck you" and calling people trash and what not, but this does not bother us as a community. For me personally, watching Idra play and saying a fuck you is just competition, all sports swear, and sponsors see it as competitive spirit, saying fuck does not offend anyone except for the person it is said to (the opposing player). When Orb said nigger, that is a word that offends people, is tied to rascism, and is just something people should not say generally. So what I'm trying to say, while Idra does swear and what not, that does not reflect poorly on the sponsors because we don't mind it as a community, Orb saying nigger looks bad for the companies because they are sponsoring someone using racial slurs.

Also the thing that makes me the angriest about the Orb situation is the lying. He kept saying how that was not him, then fesses up but never apologized for lying to the community, EG, and just trying to save his ass, and the lying is what really turned this into a witch hunt in my opinion, if he just came out and said "Yes I said that, my stream is known for that content, sorry if you were offended but this was awhile ago also." Then people would probably not care and let it goes, us throwing such a shit storm about it is what got him fired (and the lying) so yea, he lied and that still bugs me.


*Note that the term hostile is being used as a lawyer would call to the stand a hostile witness. The term doesn't imply belaboring or anger, just a point conflicting with mine.

Conclusion
Includes a quick summary of everything I've talked about, and some final thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +

So I wrote a freaking huge wall of text here. First of all, I hope you've enjoyed my blog. At the very least it is a collection of information regarding the incident, and maybe, just maybe, it was enlightening and thought provoking.

Please feel free to agree, disagree, but please no flaming or hurtful comments, towards me or each other. That was not the intention of this post. The only reason I did this was because I feel like someone had to. Actions need analysis in order to be understood, and this is my crack at it. Good counter arguments will be added to the main post, as well as good supporting points.

I don't agree with EG's decision on a moral standpoint, but I realize its what they had to do. I know Orb is a good person, and not a racist, and I hope he becomes successful. He has a very long road ahead of him after this incident, but talent always rises to the top.

Its just business nothing personal


So with that, I wish EG and Orb good luck!

/FIN


[image loading]

Thank you!


____________________


Update Log
+ Show Spoiler +

03/10/2012 - Wrote everything up to and including "Regarding words, racism, and inherent meaning"
03/11/2012 (morning) - Worked on the second section a bit
03/11/2012 (afternoon) - Finished
03/11/2012 (night) - Updated second section, thanks Battleaxe
03/12/2012 - Posted the first hostile argument, thanks Balgrog


***
pStar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
996 Posts
March 11 2012 22:59 GMT
#2
THis is honestly the best laid out blog I have ever seen.

Will begin to read now.
KonohaFlash
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1590 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-11 23:25:36
March 11 2012 23:07 GMT
#3
Sorry, but if you have to use the word Nigger to insult someone, it obviously means you have some sort of issue with black people. There is such a large amount of words he could have used instead, however he still chose to use the word nigger.

Everyone already knows about the hypocrisy regarding Idra and his common use of the word "faggot". This however, doesn't excuse orb's behaviour. Just because Idra was not punished for it, doesn't mean Orb shouldn't have. It's been known for quite sometime now, that homophobic slurs aren't punished as severely as much as racial ones.

This obviously doesn't make sense, as insulting someone because of their orientation or colour of skin should be in the same category. Hate crimes. Being gay or being whatever skin colour you are isn't something you choose to be and isn't something you should use against someone.

It's nice that you're stating your opinion and all, but what's done is done. EG has ruled their judgement and Orb has been dismissed.
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
March 11 2012 23:25 GMT
#4
On March 12 2012 08:07 KonohaFlash wrote:
Sorry, but if you have to use the word Nigger to insult someone, it obviously means you have some sort of issue with black people. There is such a large amount of words he could have used instead, however he still chose to use the word nigger.



No it doesn't, lol. What a silly thing to say. Nigger is a real word in the dictionary, and has a real definition beyond the historical slang term that applies to blacks.


If you really were raised like most people in our demographic, and believe that all people are equal, then you can't enshrine and forbid the word nigger. The bigger deal you make about the word, the more power you give to it and the more shocking it will be, the more you perpetuate racism because "ONLY A RACIST WOULD USE THAT WORD". If you REALLY want racism to go away, you have to take the word back and make it meaningless. WHICH IS WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO. It's also what a lot of gay people do with the word faggot.


but getting your knickers in a knot and assuming things about a person's thoughts or character just because they used one particular word, is stupid, immature and only perpetuates hate.




Anyway I was almost mad that this blog existed, I was about to say "Damn, haven't we beat this to death?", but the OP put so much work into it.. really nice blog.
Epoch
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada257 Posts
March 11 2012 23:27 GMT
#5
I'd like to see some other supposed non racist examples of someone slandering someone by calling them dumb nigger's to make the claim that it doesn't have any racist undertones. Because I just have never seen that happen.
KonohaFlash
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1590 Posts
March 11 2012 23:33 GMT
#6
On March 12 2012 08:25 darkscream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 08:07 KonohaFlash wrote:
Sorry, but if you have to use the word Nigger to insult someone, it obviously means you have some sort of issue with black people. There is such a large amount of words he could have used instead, however he still chose to use the word nigger.



No it doesn't, lol. What a silly thing to say. Nigger is a real word in the dictionary, and has a real definition beyond the historical slang term that applies to blacks.


If you really were raised like most people in our demographic, and believe that all people are equal, then you can't enshrine and forbid the word nigger. The bigger deal you make about the word, the more power you give to it and the more shocking it will be, the more you perpetuate racism because "ONLY A RACIST WOULD USE THAT WORD". If you REALLY want racism to go away, you have to take the word back and make it meaningless. WHICH IS WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO. It's also what a lot of gay people do with the word faggot.


but getting your knickers in a knot and assuming things about a person's thoughts or character just because they used one particular word, is stupid, immature and only perpetuates hate.




Anyway I was almost mad that this blog existed, I was about to say "Damn, haven't we beat this to death?", but the OP put so much work into it.. really nice blog.


Of course we can't forbid anyone from using the word nigger. As you said it has a real definition and is used in many books. That doesn't mean that you should use it to insult someone though. I have used the word plenty of times in English class with books such as To kill a MockingBird.

I guess I was wrong in saying that he has something against black people, but I just can't picture why someone would use that word so freely and so often to insult people he doesn't know. I suppose the reason I said that is because he lied numerous times about the evidence not depicting him, so I assumed he was lying about being a racist as well.

That was foolish of me. Apologies.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-11 23:41:37
March 11 2012 23:40 GMT
#7
On March 12 2012 08:27 Epoch wrote:
I'd like to see some other supposed non racist examples of someone slandering someone by calling them dumb nigger's to make the claim that it doesn't have any racist undertones. Because I just have never seen that happen.

Well this is purely anecdotal, I've always known whites to take more offense at use of the word nigga than blacks, and I've grown up in the more diverse urban areas of Ohio (Toledo, Columbus, Cleveland) my whole life. While in middle school and high school, I would slip and say nigga in class, having become used to using it while hanging out with my black friends, and the punishment always seemed rather silly. Keep in mind I was an honor student my whole life, and I won the largest debate tournament in the state of Ohio my senior year of high school, so my diction and verbal syntax were hardly lacking in any fundamental sense.
The moral of the story is that language IS context, it must be. As odd as this may sound, I connected with people rather unlike myself through an ad-ahoc adoption of unfamiliar language, which included the use of the words nigga and faggot.In fact, a very good gay friend of mine refers to himself as "everyones favorite faggot" and I must say he is a hilarious if not outlandish figure. All of this stilted self-righteous offense taken at the use of the word nigga just leads me to believe that no one on TL has grown up around black people.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Chunhyang
Profile Joined December 2011
Bangladesh1389 Posts
March 11 2012 23:55 GMT
#8
On March 12 2012 08:40 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 08:27 Epoch wrote:
I'd like to see some other supposed non racist examples of someone slandering someone by calling them dumb nigger's to make the claim that it doesn't have any racist undertones. Because I just have never seen that happen.

Well this is purely anecdotal, I've always known whites to take more offense at use of the word nigga than blacks, and I've grown up in the more diverse urban areas of Ohio (Toledo, Columbus, Cleveland) my whole life. While in middle school and high school, I would slip and say nigga in class, having become used to using it while hanging out with my black friends, and the punishment always seemed rather silly. Keep in mind I was an honor student my whole life, and I won the largest debate tournament in the state of Ohio my senior year of high school, so my diction and verbal syntax were hardly lacking in any fundamental sense.
The moral of the story is that language IS context, it must be. As odd as this may sound, I connected with people rather unlike myself through an ad-ahoc adoption of unfamiliar language, which included the use of the words nigga and faggot.In fact, a very good gay friend of mine refers to himself as "everyones favorite faggot" and I must say he is a hilarious if not outlandish figure. All of this stilted self-righteous offense taken at the use of the word nigga just leads me to believe that no one on TL has grown up around black people.


I don't think orb was using it the same way you were. He obviously was raging, believes being a 'nigger' is inherently badand means something is wrong with you [or at the very least, he believes that people think this, or his opponent does], and resorted to name calling.
If you could reason with haters, there would be no haters. YGTMYFT
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
March 12 2012 00:00 GMT
#9
On March 12 2012 08:33 KonohaFlash wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 08:25 darkscream wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:07 KonohaFlash wrote:
Sorry, but if you have to use the word Nigger to insult someone, it obviously means you have some sort of issue with black people. There is such a large amount of words he could have used instead, however he still chose to use the word nigger.



No it doesn't, lol. What a silly thing to say. Nigger is a real word in the dictionary, and has a real definition beyond the historical slang term that applies to blacks.


If you really were raised like most people in our demographic, and believe that all people are equal, then you can't enshrine and forbid the word nigger. The bigger deal you make about the word, the more power you give to it and the more shocking it will be, the more you perpetuate racism because "ONLY A RACIST WOULD USE THAT WORD". If you REALLY want racism to go away, you have to take the word back and make it meaningless. WHICH IS WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO. It's also what a lot of gay people do with the word faggot.


but getting your knickers in a knot and assuming things about a person's thoughts or character just because they used one particular word, is stupid, immature and only perpetuates hate.




Anyway I was almost mad that this blog existed, I was about to say "Damn, haven't we beat this to death?", but the OP put so much work into it.. really nice blog.


Of course we can't forbid anyone from using the word nigger. As you said it has a real definition and is used in many books. That doesn't mean that you should use it to insult someone though. I have used the word plenty of times in English class with books such as To kill a MockingBird.

I guess I was wrong in saying that he has something against black people, but I just can't picture why someone would use that word so freely and so often to insult people he doesn't know. I suppose the reason I said that is because he lied numerous times about the evidence not depicting him, so I assumed he was lying about being a racist as well.

That was foolish of me. Apologies.


Nonono, you're right. Orb used the word as an insult. Regardless of how he is perceived, what he said was racist. Using that word as an insult is racist, regardless of who says it. The fact that the first thing that came to his mind when he was angry and wished to wound was "dumb nigger" shows that what you said was correct.
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
March 12 2012 00:03 GMT
#10
On March 12 2012 09:00 mbr2321 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 08:33 KonohaFlash wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:25 darkscream wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:07 KonohaFlash wrote:
Sorry, but if you have to use the word Nigger to insult someone, it obviously means you have some sort of issue with black people. There is such a large amount of words he could have used instead, however he still chose to use the word nigger.



No it doesn't, lol. What a silly thing to say. Nigger is a real word in the dictionary, and has a real definition beyond the historical slang term that applies to blacks.


If you really were raised like most people in our demographic, and believe that all people are equal, then you can't enshrine and forbid the word nigger. The bigger deal you make about the word, the more power you give to it and the more shocking it will be, the more you perpetuate racism because "ONLY A RACIST WOULD USE THAT WORD". If you REALLY want racism to go away, you have to take the word back and make it meaningless. WHICH IS WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO. It's also what a lot of gay people do with the word faggot.


but getting your knickers in a knot and assuming things about a person's thoughts or character just because they used one particular word, is stupid, immature and only perpetuates hate.




Anyway I was almost mad that this blog existed, I was about to say "Damn, haven't we beat this to death?", but the OP put so much work into it.. really nice blog.


Of course we can't forbid anyone from using the word nigger. As you said it has a real definition and is used in many books. That doesn't mean that you should use it to insult someone though. I have used the word plenty of times in English class with books such as To kill a MockingBird.

I guess I was wrong in saying that he has something against black people, but I just can't picture why someone would use that word so freely and so often to insult people he doesn't know. I suppose the reason I said that is because he lied numerous times about the evidence not depicting him, so I assumed he was lying about being a racist as well.

That was foolish of me. Apologies.


Nonono, you're right. Orb used the word as an insult. Regardless of how he is perceived, what he said was racist. Using that word as an insult is racist, regardless of who says it. The fact that the first thing that came to his mind when he was angry and wished to wound was "dumb nigger" shows that what you said was correct.

So when my friend Dana, who happens to be black, uses the phrase "dumb nigger" as an insult in reference to both whites and blacks, what does that make him?
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
xlava
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States676 Posts
March 12 2012 00:05 GMT
#11
Thanks for the replies so far

On March 12 2012 09:00 mbr2321 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 08:33 KonohaFlash wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:25 darkscream wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:07 KonohaFlash wrote:
Sorry, but if you have to use the word Nigger to insult someone, it obviously means you have some sort of issue with black people. There is such a large amount of words he could have used instead, however he still chose to use the word nigger.



No it doesn't, lol. What a silly thing to say. Nigger is a real word in the dictionary, and has a real definition beyond the historical slang term that applies to blacks.


If you really were raised like most people in our demographic, and believe that all people are equal, then you can't enshrine and forbid the word nigger. The bigger deal you make about the word, the more power you give to it and the more shocking it will be, the more you perpetuate racism because "ONLY A RACIST WOULD USE THAT WORD". If you REALLY want racism to go away, you have to take the word back and make it meaningless. WHICH IS WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO. It's also what a lot of gay people do with the word faggot.


but getting your knickers in a knot and assuming things about a person's thoughts or character just because they used one particular word, is stupid, immature and only perpetuates hate.




Anyway I was almost mad that this blog existed, I was about to say "Damn, haven't we beat this to death?", but the OP put so much work into it.. really nice blog.


Of course we can't forbid anyone from using the word nigger. As you said it has a real definition and is used in many books. That doesn't mean that you should use it to insult someone though. I have used the word plenty of times in English class with books such as To kill a MockingBird.

I guess I was wrong in saying that he has something against black people, but I just can't picture why someone would use that word so freely and so often to insult people he doesn't know. I suppose the reason I said that is because he lied numerous times about the evidence not depicting him, so I assumed he was lying about being a racist as well.

That was foolish of me. Apologies.


Nonono, you're right. Orb used the word as an insult. Regardless of how he is perceived, what he said was racist. Using that word as an insult is racist, regardless of who says it. The fact that the first thing that came to his mind when he was angry and wished to wound was "dumb nigger" shows that what you said was correct.


I can't agree with this. When Destiny calls people "faggots" on his stream, do you really think he is intolerant of homosexuals? They're all simply words that have become unfortunately commonplace in our abusive vocabularies. Its sad, but as a society we've desensitized the words through constant use.

It is a racist word yes, but not necessarily one with racist motives behind it.
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
March 12 2012 00:19 GMT
#12
On March 12 2012 09:05 xlava wrote:
Thanks for the replies so far

Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 09:00 mbr2321 wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:33 KonohaFlash wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:25 darkscream wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:07 KonohaFlash wrote:
Sorry, but if you have to use the word Nigger to insult someone, it obviously means you have some sort of issue with black people. There is such a large amount of words he could have used instead, however he still chose to use the word nigger.



No it doesn't, lol. What a silly thing to say. Nigger is a real word in the dictionary, and has a real definition beyond the historical slang term that applies to blacks.


If you really were raised like most people in our demographic, and believe that all people are equal, then you can't enshrine and forbid the word nigger. The bigger deal you make about the word, the more power you give to it and the more shocking it will be, the more you perpetuate racism because "ONLY A RACIST WOULD USE THAT WORD". If you REALLY want racism to go away, you have to take the word back and make it meaningless. WHICH IS WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO. It's also what a lot of gay people do with the word faggot.


but getting your knickers in a knot and assuming things about a person's thoughts or character just because they used one particular word, is stupid, immature and only perpetuates hate.




Anyway I was almost mad that this blog existed, I was about to say "Damn, haven't we beat this to death?", but the OP put so much work into it.. really nice blog.


Of course we can't forbid anyone from using the word nigger. As you said it has a real definition and is used in many books. That doesn't mean that you should use it to insult someone though. I have used the word plenty of times in English class with books such as To kill a MockingBird.

I guess I was wrong in saying that he has something against black people, but I just can't picture why someone would use that word so freely and so often to insult people he doesn't know. I suppose the reason I said that is because he lied numerous times about the evidence not depicting him, so I assumed he was lying about being a racist as well.

That was foolish of me. Apologies.


Nonono, you're right. Orb used the word as an insult. Regardless of how he is perceived, what he said was racist. Using that word as an insult is racist, regardless of who says it. The fact that the first thing that came to his mind when he was angry and wished to wound was "dumb nigger" shows that what you said was correct.


I can't agree with this. When Destiny calls people "faggots" on his stream, do you really think he is intolerant of homosexuals? They're all simply words that have become unfortunately commonplace in our abusive vocabularies. Its sad, but as a society we've desensitized the words through constant use.

It is a racist word yes, but not necessarily one with racist motives behind it.


I think this is incredibly important-- I agree with you in that I don't think Destiny is intolerant of homosexuals. I also don't have any evidence to say that orb is a racist, but herein lies the key difference:

When Destiny says the word "faggot," what he says shows intolerance of homosexuals. In the same way, what orb said was racist, regardless of his personal beliefs or opinions.

That being said, I think the latter is a different scenario from the former. There is no tolerance for the word "nigger" in society. If there is any word in the english language that has a intrinsic racial charge behind it, regardless of context, it's that word. The word "faggot" doesn't have that level of intolerance in society yet-- it's still commonplace use without charge behind it.
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
xlava
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States676 Posts
March 12 2012 00:21 GMT
#13
On March 12 2012 09:19 mbr2321 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 12 2012 09:05 xlava wrote:
Thanks for the replies so far

On March 12 2012 09:00 mbr2321 wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:33 KonohaFlash wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:25 darkscream wrote:
On March 12 2012 08:07 KonohaFlash wrote:
Sorry, but if you have to use the word Nigger to insult someone, it obviously means you have some sort of issue with black people. There is such a large amount of words he could have used instead, however he still chose to use the word nigger.



No it doesn't, lol. What a silly thing to say. Nigger is a real word in the dictionary, and has a real definition beyond the historical slang term that applies to blacks.


If you really were raised like most people in our demographic, and believe that all people are equal, then you can't enshrine and forbid the word nigger. The bigger deal you make about the word, the more power you give to it and the more shocking it will be, the more you perpetuate racism because "ONLY A RACIST WOULD USE THAT WORD". If you REALLY want racism to go away, you have to take the word back and make it meaningless. WHICH IS WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO. It's also what a lot of gay people do with the word faggot.


but getting your knickers in a knot and assuming things about a person's thoughts or character just because they used one particular word, is stupid, immature and only perpetuates hate.




Anyway I was almost mad that this blog existed, I was about to say "Damn, haven't we beat this to death?", but the OP put so much work into it.. really nice blog.


Of course we can't forbid anyone from using the word nigger. As you said it has a real definition and is used in many books. That doesn't mean that you should use it to insult someone though. I have used the word plenty of times in English class with books such as To kill a MockingBird.

I guess I was wrong in saying that he has something against black people, but I just can't picture why someone would use that word so freely and so often to insult people he doesn't know. I suppose the reason I said that is because he lied numerous times about the evidence not depicting him, so I assumed he was lying about being a racist as well.

That was foolish of me. Apologies.


Nonono, you're right. Orb used the word as an insult. Regardless of how he is perceived, what he said was racist. Using that word as an insult is racist, regardless of who says it. The fact that the first thing that came to his mind when he was angry and wished to wound was "dumb nigger" shows that what you said was correct.


I can't agree with this. When Destiny calls people "faggots" on his stream, do you really think he is intolerant of homosexuals? They're all simply words that have become unfortunately commonplace in our abusive vocabularies. Its sad, but as a society we've desensitized the words through constant use.

It is a racist word yes, but not necessarily one with racist motives behind it.


I think this is incredibly important-- I agree with you in that I don't think Destiny is intolerant of homosexuals. I also don't have any evidence to say that orb is a racist, but herein lies the key difference:

When Destiny says the word "faggot," what he says shows intolerance of homosexuals. In the same way, what orb said was racist, regardless of his personal beliefs or opinions.

That being said, I think the latter is a different scenario from the former. There is no tolerance for the word "nigger" in society. If there is any word in the english language that has a intrinsic racial charge behind it, regardless of context, it's that word. The word "faggot" doesn't have that level of intolerance in society yet-- it's still commonplace use without charge behind it.


Agreed. As I stated in my blog, we set our own standards regarding what we deem as appropriate and inappropriate.
Nesserev
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium2760 Posts
March 12 2012 00:35 GMT
#14
--- Nuked ---
Revolt
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States288 Posts
March 12 2012 00:44 GMT
#15
nigger, faggot, all of these are unprofessional. so please stop using other streamers as examples.
in their profession none of this is tolerated. so please stop with the examples.

Orb did what he did, now he has to face the consequences. It's too bad it had to be a big failure for him to realize any usage of the word nigger is inappropriate.

-Nesserev
It's completely tolerable for a child to use the word out of emotion, but for a 23 year old? come on.
The 23 year old knows the definition, and it's context. Whereas the child is ignorant of the word. Sure, child may know the definition from webster's, but does he know the effect of it?
A depth of pure blue just to probe curiosity.
Battleaxe
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States843 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-12 00:46:03
March 12 2012 00:45 GMT
#16
Great post. As someone who enjoys reading random responses to drama, this may one of the best I'll ever read. One thing I think you may have missed though is that many were also arguing the fact that Orb denied responsibility of even saying these things in the first place, which paved way for a larger shitstorm then needed once the truth was finally revealed. I wouldn't be shocked if part of EG's decision to dismiss Orb was due to the lying as well, and could to speak to another reason why EG has stuck with Idra: he's owned up to it.

Personally, the two things that have come out of this for me: A slight loss in respect for Orb due to the lying, and a loss of respect in EG for dismissing Orb so quickly. I think had they released the statement you suggested above, it would have been an all-around win like you said.
Without a community, we're all just a bunch of geeks.
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
March 12 2012 00:58 GMT
#17
oh yeah, I forgot to mention in earlier posts, but this was not only a fantastic blog, but a contribution to the intellectual world. you, sir, should be proud-- while I don't necessarily agree, it's always refreshing to see an well organized argument put impeccably into context and reasoned not only with authority, but with intelligence
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
March 12 2012 01:14 GMT
#18
I don't get the fascination with trying to pretend like people who are using certain insults aren't using it in the widely accepted and often times only definition of the word. If you want to know why people use the term here is why:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nigger

To pretend like there is any other reason is just plain absurd. It's like the "bundle of sticks" defense when you call people faggots.

And believing for a second that someone has actually convinced themselves that when they are using these words in some form that has nothing to do with their definition, how can the rest of the world possibly know that unless it comes with a disclaimer every time they say it? Everyone else thinks one thing when they hear nigger or faggot. That's the comparison everyone in the world is drawing when you decide to use these insults. Whatever stupid cop out excuse you make up in your own head does not apply to what everyone else is going to infer. So why use the word unless you mean it?

People use them because they want to use the most offensive word in their vocabulary. But another ridiculous excuse is how many people using them don't believe words can or should be offensive. If that were the case, and these words to them are as benign and harmless as any other word, how convenient it must be that these are the two words so often chosen. Why constantly hurl the same inoffensive words at people in an attempt to insult them? That's just dumb

People who use them want to be edgy and controversial, or they want to be flat out offensive. I would say mission accomplished for Orb
xlava
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States676 Posts
March 12 2012 01:31 GMT
#19
On March 12 2012 09:58 mbr2321 wrote:
oh yeah, I forgot to mention in earlier posts, but this was not only a fantastic blog, but a contribution to the intellectual world. you, sir, should be proud-- while I don't necessarily agree, it's always refreshing to see an well organized argument put impeccably into context and reasoned not only with authority, but with intelligence


Thank you very much

On March 12 2012 09:45 Battleaxe wrote:
Great post. As someone who enjoys reading random responses to drama, this may one of the best I'll ever read. One thing I think you may have missed though is that many were also arguing the fact that Orb denied responsibility of even saying these things in the first place, which paved way for a larger shitstorm then needed once the truth was finally revealed. I wouldn't be shocked if part of EG's decision to dismiss Orb was due to the lying as well, and could to speak to another reason why EG has stuck with Idra: he's owned up to it.

Personally, the two things that have come out of this for me: A slight loss in respect for Orb due to the lying, and a loss of respect in EG for dismissing Orb so quickly. I think had they released the statement you suggested above, it would have been an all-around win like you said.


Ah yes I did recall reading about Orb denying the accusations, and that does say something about his character and sincerity. I suppose that I didn't really consider that as part of my overarching reasoning, but regardless, you've brought it to my attention that it deserves mentioning. Thanks. You will be my first edit
PolishxThunder
Profile Joined May 2011
United States153 Posts
March 12 2012 02:12 GMT
#20
Very nicely organized post, overall I agree but I never liked Orb to begin with.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-12 02:43:03
March 12 2012 02:31 GMT
#21
One of the best posts I've read on this topic. Thanks a lot. =)


What personally annoys me the most about this entire thing is however hidden in your concluison:

Its just business nothing personal


It's not just business anymore. The entire thing developed into a witch hunt on orb for those comments. This is very personal and it seems a lot of people want to see his career destroyed for life. People are brand marking him as racist (it's amusing how many people on other forums used the term "he's a racist faggot") which is neither fair nor accurate.


Personally, I believe that the only reason this entire thing is blown up to the current proportion is that most people who take part in this witch hunt are very aware that they have used similar insults before but now have found a goat they can blame and crucify. Considering the BM that is common on ladders, this is highly likely and a very common human response.



PS: Since you seem to have invested this entire thing better than most, this might be the place to ask. I found comments on reddit which stated that the guy he called nigger and faggot was someone who repeatedly BM'd him with the same vocabulary in those games, just to take the chance and upload orbs comments when he made them. Do you have any info about whether this is true or not?



Edit because I saw it coming up:
Everyone else thinks one thing when they hear nigger or faggot. That's the comparison everyone in the world is drawing when you decide to use these insults. Whatever stupid cop out excuse you make up in your own head does not apply to what everyone else is going to infer. So why use the word unless you mean it?


I'm pretty sure I'm part of a minority here, but I have both used and heard the word "nigger" being used in a positive context as a compliment. Same for the german version of "faggot". If you assume that usage of this word instead of "black person" focuses on racial stereotypes to the max (which it does), it also can be used to described someone who is strong, large, great at basketball or running.

Examples:

"Dude, you're fucking like a nigger..!" ... in a sexual context.
"OH MY GAWD YOU THREW THAT BALL LIKE A NIGGER" ... in a basketball context.
"Damn, you can dance/rap like a nigger." ... in a club/poetry slam context.

In the last two cases black people were right next to the person saying it turned their head, realized the context and the word being used as a compliment, smiled and responeded with something along the lines of "Damn right!".


Words are tools which have no inherent good or evil meaning. Their meaning is defined by context and intent.


We call someone who says "I believe all afro-americans should be shot." a racist as well for good reasons, no one argues "but he used politically correct language, he can't be racist!" there. Context, people, context.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
March 12 2012 03:00 GMT
#22
I understand that context is important as well, but this is in the context of being used as an insult, so it's not really relevant to this discussion. Also, all three of this examples are racist. Even if you substituted "nigger" with "african american" or "black person"
xlava
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States676 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-12 03:11:00
March 12 2012 03:09 GMT
#23
@r.Evo, that was meant as more of a funny/bad pun type comment. Just thought I'd throw in a Godfather quote.

Anyway though I see your point. Yes, you're absolutely correct. It had turned into a witch hunt. I put in the just business quote because I felt like it was important to exemplify the fact that Mr. Garfield made the only business decision that was practically available to him. I don't think he holds a personal vendetta against Orb, which is why I wanted to end on that note.

Additionally, no I don't know if the person was bming Orb or not. I didn't catch any of that in my research. It'd be interesting to see Orb post here and tell us personally though :O maybe he'll find this blog and answer it himself

Also thank you for your kind words.
Balgrog
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1221 Posts
March 12 2012 03:27 GMT
#24
I am going to preface this with saying that this is one of the best blogs I have read. You really did your homework, you laid everything out right, and over all was a pleasure to read a well structured and formatted blog, but onto my point.

What I have to say is a mixture of point 2/3.

Yes Idra is very famous for saying "fuck you" and calling people trash and what not, but this does not bother us as a community. For me personally, watching Idra play and saying a fuck you is just competition, all sports swear, and sponsors see it as competitive spirit, saying fuck does not offend anyone except for the person it is said to (the opposing player). When Orb said nigger, that is a word that offends people, is tied to rascism, and is just something people should not say generally. So what I'm trying to say, while Idra does swear and what not, that does not reflect poorly on the sponsors because we don't mind it as a community, Orb saying nigger looks bad for the companies because they are sponsoring someone using racial slurs.

Also the thing that makes me the angriest about the Orb situation is the lying. He kept saying how that was not him, then fesses up but never apologized for lying to the community, EG, and just trying to save his ass, and the lying is what really turned this into a witch hunt in my opinion, if he just came out and said "Yes I said that, my stream is known for that content, sorry if you were offended but this was awhile ago also." Then people would probably not care and let it goes, us throwing such a shit storm about it is what got him fired (and the lying) so yea, he lied and that still bugs me.
The only way to attack structure is with chaos.
xlava
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States676 Posts
March 12 2012 04:11 GMT
#25
Thanks Balgrog. You make good points, I appreciate the comments
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
March 12 2012 07:19 GMT
#26
Wow, has this become the Janet Jackson nipple-slip of ESPORTS?
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
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