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seems there is lingering the misconsept again, that sc2=less apm therefore more strategy, maybe the relative is true, but generally its not true. How can you compared 12 year old hardcore competition 12 h a day practice every day to a 2 year old game where the competition is not that high (pressure to preform) as in BW.
You need 11000 apm to perfectly micro your like 12 marines vs 20 benelings or something. There is allways something to do, allways, if you have excessive apm, your just not ment to use it. Position your units around, spread them perfectly when you ahve time (like bw zvz, you got time to perfectly line zerglings). There is allways allways something to do. Making sure mineral line, what isnt saturated has good worker coverage (close mineral patches have 2 workers). if you make observer, then when you have nothing to do, hotkey your observer and hop there and move it around even for 1 sec then go back to do something else.
Also it seems you have the case of:
macro 10/500
micro 10/200
map avareness 10/300
reading oponent 10/200
apm 100/200
tottally random numbers, but you get the idea. more apm never hurts, unless you have something to use it on. If your gold+ more apm never hurts, but isnt the main thing.
Some bw pros have 450-500 apm also  . I think by.hero and by.great ?? have like 450+ apm, go downlaod bw replay last time i downloaded one of theirs it was 15 minute game with 475 apm. even too much for bw (not about hand speed, but brain cant handle that much effective apm, alot of spam they have).
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Lol. I once played a game in BW vs a chinese player who had 400-something average apm. I won and checked his iccup profile. He had over 100 games and was D- In that moment i realized what apm is NOT.
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On February 17 2012 09:40 ae wrote:
Lol. I once played a game in BW vs a chinese player who had 400-something average apm. I won and checked his iccup profile. He had over 100 games and was D- In that moment i realized what apm is NOT.
sucks that julyzerg was ONLY chosein in proteam only because he had 400+ apm (sucked at everything else). and he became god in bw.
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On February 17 2012 08:44 aebriol wrote:
So you feedback all ghosts and medivacs, hit your storms perfectly, also your forcefields, have zealots in a nice arch, manually control your blink stalkers to snipe medivacs and vikings, target marauder tank with immortals and avoid cliffs with your colossus so they can't be sniped, while warping in zealots or dt's to clean up drops or harass, and reinforcing your main army.
Good for you.
I don't know what you should use your apm for honestly. Chronoboost gateways?
Nope. I do that too. Nobody is going to have perfect storms, of course, but all that kind of micro is honestly pretty elementary stuff and is common sense. Unit positioning/target firing/kiting is not really what I consider to be high level micro. Sure, you can do it better, but it's just not that important.
I mean, I can probably do all those things better.
(also, chronoing gateways doesn't work out too well if you have the right number of gates for your income, cause you'll just end up with idle gates as you have no money. It's good if your macro slips or something or you don't have enough gates,)
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On February 17 2012 16:34 EternaLLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 08:44 aebriol wrote:
So you feedback all ghosts and medivacs, hit your storms perfectly, also your forcefields, have zealots in a nice arch, manually control your blink stalkers to snipe medivacs and vikings, target marauder tank with immortals and avoid cliffs with your colossus so they can't be sniped, while warping in zealots or dt's to clean up drops or harass, and reinforcing your main army.
Good for you.
I don't know what you should use your apm for honestly. Chronoboost gateways? Nope. I do that too. Nobody is going to have perfect storms, of course, but all that kind of micro is honestly pretty elementary stuff and is common sense. Unit positioning/target firing/kiting is not really what I consider to be high level micro. Sure, you can do it better, but it's just not that important.
... well, it decides who wins or loses matches in the GSL. But I guess, those low level players aren't worth comparing you to.
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LeibSaiLeib you seem to be ignoring the games pace though.. SC2 is faster and the advantages of heavy micromanagement in engagements is obviously far less. 500 APM in like 5 seconds is far less micro than 500 APM over a typical sustained BW engagement; sometimes they basically stayed sustained constantly throughout the mid-late game in intense games it was crazy. It's actually not worth doing what you are saying past the early game, things like pulling back damaged units in high unit count situations is better spent keeping macro up or just general sweeping army decisions - making sure a new unit is out 100% on time and with your ball is obviously more important than microing to keep 1 unit already active in combat alive. Also because of the clumping and general unit behavior that one unit is simply not worth as much as it was to micro anyway.
Even with the things that you are saying that are feasible like arranging workers correctly it's barely giving you any advantage. The game needs to be more designed in the way tghat you can force someone in to multitasking situations they can't keep up with; it's a bit too rewarding in the opposite, and HotS looks to continue it if you got activate-and-forget units like the Shredder imo.
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On February 17 2012 19:46 infinity2k9 wrote:
LeibSaiLeib you seem to be ignoring the games pace though.. SC2 is faster and the advantages of heavy micromanagement in engagements is obviously far less. 500 APM in like 5 seconds is far less micro than 500 APM over a typical sustained BW engagement; sometimes they basically stayed sustained constantly throughout the mid-late game in intense games it was crazy. It's actually not worth doing what you are saying past the early game, things like pulling back damaged units in high unit count situations is better spent keeping macro up or just general sweeping army decisions - making sure a new unit is out 100% on time and with your ball is obviously more important than microing to keep 1 unit already active in combat alive. Also because of the clumping and general unit behavior that one unit is simply not worth as much as it was to micro anyway.
Even with the things that you are saying that are feasible like arranging workers correctly it's barely giving you any advantage. The game needs to be more designed in the way tghat you can force someone in to multitasking situations they can't keep up with; it's a bit too rewarding in the opposite, and HotS looks to continue it if you got activate-and-forget units like the Shredder imo.
I never compared the apm usage of sc2 and bw, you took your text out of thing air (wich describes current economy and politics quiet well). I was saying in my post apm isnt that important but more of it never hurts. I never also stated that you need same ammount of apm in sc2.
There is also something called sustaining apm, means if you dont have something to do in next 2 seconds, its better to spam brainlessly to keep up the momentum. The most amazing thing is that every pro knows that more apm (eapm) is better, noone ever says differently, but we allways argue about apm (usually add, that other things might be more important for lower then pro lvls usually, but thats the part they are quoted for, not that more apm never hurts).
Also you got the big army vs big armyu micro wrong, well yes alot of cases in sc2, its useless (ff, marauders, fungal). In big armys you dont pull away single units, you pull away few units at a time, watch any bw matcup (pvp zvz pvz pvt), you see its very common, instead of pulling away 1 unit, wich is useless , they take 4-5 units and pull them back, when the arch is so that they get most dps from enemy. You can do exacly the same thing in sc2, for example your geting flanked by zealots (no aoe from prootos), you take the units where the zealots come from and kite with them, other units will remain still to get max dps.
Also i like to bring up the insane apms of some bw pros only because it shows that if your T or Z and have under 300 apm, means you suck, period. One day sc2 will be like that too, sooner or later (metagame developement is stopped by the bad team setups in west, everyone has to play in competetive lvl, they have to win, so they are allways playing trusted strategies, in bw you got b teamers etc, who are often forced to practice one strategy for hundreds of games to see if its useful).
EDIT: I saw earlier speaking of basic micro, yeah unless your protoss and have only gateways micro is easy, but any other race you need to macro between your studder steping or whatever, and yes its possible, but alot of pros dont do that for some reason, even if they did it in bw. Also something as distant micro (where your units are not in your screen but still selected and you micro the outscreen units and the other units on screen) or minimap micro (was used sometimes in tvz early game to micro marines when you had 2 bases, clicking on minimap instead of the screen to micro) i havent seen anyone do either of those too and ofcourse every time you moved your untis you would select your macro buildings and just start maybe one marauder if you dont have tome to press d twice, do that every studder steping and you got macro units coming(but gameplay seems havent gone to the step), comparable would be muta micro in tvz in bw, wher you literally had to have 500+ apm since you had to muta micro and macro at the same time.
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EPT
