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I've been playing some more SC2, trying to overlook the massive glaring flaws and just enjoy it as a casual game to unwind. I don't practice any strategies, don't know any of the modern builds, don't really even go into games with a game plan. It really feels like I'm winning/losing at random too.
I've racked up quite a few games over the last couple weeks, and I still am just as lost as when I started. I look at games, and have absolutely no clue why I win or lose them most of the time. Hell, the vast majority of games seem to end with armies smashing into each other and one player magically winning. The rest seem to just be build order losses and cheese.
I'm so used to just steamrolling people in BW through sheer mechanics (and losing to better players from mechanics as well). The better player almost always wins. It's just not a game where you can lose to random players who a-move their armies. I always feel like there's more I can do, because... there is.
In SC2 I cannot for the life of me figure out a way to make my mechanics count for anything. The only matchup where that micro seems to matter at all is PvP, ironically, because at least gateway on gateway fights early on are micro-centric. Of course, once it hits midgame micro becomes almost meaningless because colossus/chargelots punish you for microing.
So seriously, what the heck am I supposed to do with my apm besides scout more?
I guess I can see why all the best koreans play terran right now. At least you can spend more APM stutter-stepping. Protoss is just... afk until 200/200 and hope for a good engage. I also see why Blizzard seems intent to nerf the hell out of terran at every opportunity, because they have to compensate for it actually rewarding better play. Why give Z and P even more tools that reward mechanics when you can just reward them a-moving? /rage
I hope that I'm not the only person who feels so exasperated. I just feel like there should be no way in hell outside of crazy cheese that I'd ever lose to a 50 apm player. Yet, it happens, all the time. God forbid I can find some use for 250 apm in this game...
  
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Harrass more w blink stalkers and an obs, or pheonix :D
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Maybe you just aren't good at figuring stuff out?
Cause you know, I can tell in pretty much every game why I win or lose ... and most pro games as well that I watch.
And if you are just doing random shit without any plan, then you'll win or lose randomly too ... what did you expect?
... the game won't make sense to you if you aren't trying to figure it out.
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You can abuse low APM players' weakness by forcing them to multitask. Also, you cannot macro properly with 50 APM, even as Protoss, so you should always get ahead of those players. I agree with some of your points though.
I don't have problems figuring out why I lost, so idk how to help you there. What league are you in btw?
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Actually i think hes totally right. I sucked really hard at Broodwar but it was crazy how much more units a good player had at 10 minutes than i did. In sc2 this isnt much of a problem. Hotkeying all Structures and then spamming or just holding down a key is making this pretty easy. Microing has become less meaningful as well and actually is bad at some points. At Broodwar i got rolled because i couldnt move my 4-6 control groups fast enough.
But then again everyone knows that sc2 is alot easier mechanical wise its more about mind games and reading strategies since alot of the game is about hard countering whatever your opponent does.
I hope that if you switch you will have a good time and find a good way to use your skill.
Respect the broodwar players!
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XTikka is right, I think your strengths lie in mechanics and not so much in strategy (you said you can't figure out why you lost, that's why I say this). What's your SC2Gears EAPM? If it isn't around 200, there is definitely more that you could be doing (unless you play Protoss lol).
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On February 17 2012 03:06 Demonhunter04 wrote:
XTikka is right, I think your strengths lie in mechanics and not so much in strategy (you said you can't figure out why you lost, that's why I say this). What's your SC2Gears EAPM? If it isn't around 200, there is definitely more that you could be doing (unless you play Protoss lol).
Actually blink micro, blink stalker harrass, pheonix harrass, and dropping at your opponents mqin with 4 sentries then warping in zlots while ffing the ramp are all micro intensive. Lategame apm as p seems to only help if you have blink stalkers
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rofl, in BW, it didn't matter if you had 100 or 300 apm if your builds are just flat out bad and your gameplan non existant (obviously, the game was harder mechanically because of the AI, no auto mining, etc), the same thing happens in sc2, as long as your build is solid and you have a nice gameplan to follow you are going to win more than the guy who just does w/e he feels like doing while having faster apm.
I think people don't understand properly that higher apm doesn't necessarely means better mechanics, if you do in 5 clicks what someone else does in 1 that doesn't make you better than him, once you start understanding the game and learning better builds and strategies you will find better ways to make use of your superior mechanics (ie harassing with a probe early game, warp prism harass, scouting the map for hidden pylons, taking the xel'naga towers, poking at the ramp to see which/how many units he has, etc).
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On February 17 2012 03:06 Demonhunter04 wrote:
XTikka is right, I think your strengths lie in mechanics and not so much in strategy (you said you can't figure out why you lost, that's why I say this). What's your SC2Gears EAPM? If it isn't around 200, there is definitely more that you could be doing (unless you play Protoss lol).
Yah I play protoss, trololol. Maybe I should finally switch to zerg now that the map pool isn't full of imbalanced abusable maps (lol, steppes of war/kulas ravine).
I guess I used bad language... when I say I can't figure out why I lost, I mean that from a control standpoint. Especially when it comes to large engagements, it seems like half the time I lose at random, and the other half of the time I win handily. Control doesn't seem to factor in, at all.
When it comes to higher level strategy, I usually can pinpoint my mistake. Unfortunately, it's usually just one blunder that costs the entire game, and there is no way to use superior control to make up for it. That's what's so frustrating, because it means I just have to fill in the "flowchart" for SC2 games in order to win more. It's the exact opposite of what I remember Day[9] saying in his "eliminating assumptions" episode (one of the few recent dailies I've seen.)
On February 17 2012 03:21 Darkness2k11 wrote:
rofl, in BW, it didn't matter if you had 100 or 300 apm if your builds are just flat out bad and your gameplan non existant (obviously, the game was harder mechanically because of the AI, no auto mining, etc), the same thing happens in sc2, as long as your build is solid and you have a nice gameplan to follow you are going to win more than the guy who just does w/e he feels like doing while having faster apm.
I think people don't understand properly that higher apm doesn't necessarely means better mechanics, if you do in 5 clicks what someone else does in 1 that doesn't make you better than him, once you start understanding the game and learning better builds and strategies you will find better ways to make use of your superior mechanics (ie harassing with a probe early game, warp prism harass, scouting the map for hidden pylons, taking the xel'naga towers, poking at the ramp to see which/how many units he has, etc).
I'm still following builds. I just haven't worked out perfecting them. There's a difference between drilling builds (practicing vs a variety of openings and planning reactions for all of them) and just doing things that seem sensible. And yes, if you have bad builds in BW you can lose, but if you have 300 apm and are good at controlling your army you'll win even with terrible builds vs worse players. I've seen it time and time again.
You just listed a ton of things I already do. I'm not a noob. I've been playing this game since early beta and played at extremely high level then.
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On February 17 2012 03:02 Sated wrote:
APM =/= Skill.
you are so smart.
Edit On Topic: Do what bisu did, multitask the shit out of any opponnent... make so many clever harrass and cute shit that your opponent can't keep up the pressure.
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The funny thing about apm is people that don't know the limitations of their apm will often lose to people who are much slower. If you have 200 apm and think that's enough to always look after your blink stalkers then you'll do some blink stalker harass. However, if it's not actually enough and all your blink stalkers die to a 100 apm a-move, it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that 200 wasn't actually enough to do the strategy you wanted.
That being said, yeah Blizz does cater to none mechanical players and it looks like they will continue to with the new expansion. It's why a lot of mechanical players like early aggressive or mid game aggressive plays. This forces their opponents to micro their units, not get supply blocked, keep building scvs, pull scvs if they're getting attacked etc. If they aren't mechanically sound then they get supply blocked and won't have enough units to hold off the aggression. If they don't make scvs then if the aggression doesn't kill them they can't carry on to the mid game. etc.
Basically, do aggressive builds that give you an advantage if you can micro and macro at the same time.
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On February 17 2012 03:24 XenOsky- wrote:you are so smart. Edit On Topic: Do what bisu did, multitask the shit out of any opponnent... make so many clever harrass and cute shit that your opponent can't keep up the pressure.
Yah, I'd like to do more of that, but there's very few ways to harass as a protoss player to begin with, not to mention that most players just allin you if you actually are successful and all that money devoted to harass gets you killed in the ball on ball fight, again, because control doesn't make up for just having a worse army. =/
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you can try to make it count in early game... cute zealot harrass, into dts... idk try to be creative.
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On February 17 2012 03:28 EternaLLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:24 XenOsky- wrote:On February 17 2012 03:02 Sated wrote:
APM =/= Skill. you are so smart. Edit On Topic: Do what bisu did, multitask the shit out of any opponnent... make so many clever harrass and cute shit that your opponent can't keep up the pressure. Yah, I'd like to do more of that, but there's very few ways to harass as a protoss player to begin with, not to mention that most players just allin you if you actually are successful and all that money devoted to harass gets you killed in the ball on ball fight, again, because control doesn't make up for just having a worse army. =/
Have you watched HerO play? The man is godly at multi-pronged attacks.
I would argue with the warp in mechanics Toss has one of the most harass style capabilities that can be utilized, its just that many people don't. you can make pylons anywhere in the map, warp in 4 zealots go to town on an expansion
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you should check ot how grubby plays. he is very harass oriented and a lot of his games especially PvZ have a BW kind of feel to them.
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If you are actually macroing well, you'll be top masters/grand masters. I dunno if it answers your questions about APM but SC2 just is not about super micro management in the later stages of the game... Protoss is kind of the "lowest APM" race also, there isnt a lot extra for them to get. Zerg on the otherhand is an APM black hole - there's always more to do. I guess if you want to be challenged mechanically, roll some zerg up to master's league. Try to do muta/ling stuff in all the matchups, for example, and I think you'll find a sufficient number of tasks you can complete for advantages.
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Play terran, it's the only race that will reward you for your skill.
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watching a stream and seeing what pro level players do is probably the best way for you to learn right now
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On February 17 2012 03:28 EternaLLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:24 XenOsky- wrote:On February 17 2012 03:02 Sated wrote:
APM =/= Skill. you are so smart. Edit On Topic: Do what bisu did, multitask the shit out of any opponnent... make so many clever harrass and cute shit that your opponent can't keep up the pressure. Yah, I'd like to do more of that, but there's very few ways to harass as a protoss player to begin with, not to mention that most players just allin you if you actually are successful and all that money devoted to harass gets you killed in the ball on ball fight, again, because control doesn't make up for just having a worse army. =/
Eh, that is really not true at all, harassing with speed WPs works great in PvT and PvP. The harassing units are army as well, it's not a separate investment unless you actually lose them, and in most cases you can get the units back home fast enough.
Be mindful harassment timings. If you want to keep the opponent's army away from you, harass him as soon as he moves out (so he is encouraged to walk back the small distance to save his infrastructure and economy rather than walk the long distance to your base), NOT when his army is in the middle or already knocking at your front door (or he will say fuck it, and just go for an attack / base trade).
Also be mindful of your positioning. A Protoss army that fights in a good position can easily overcome a 10 or so supply deficiency that is invested in harassment just by virtue of Forcefields and splash damage. Make him go through chokes and up ramps if he is so desperate to engage your army.
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No offense but it this sounds like "I'm better than the player i lost to" QQ blog. If you lost you are not, period. If your mechanic are great and your strategy is lacking that's your fault. And unless your GM or high masters, you have sooooo much room to improve and use your mechanics/apm better. What league are you?
I mean just look at your first paragraph:
I've been playing some more SC2, trying to overlook the massive glaring flaws and just enjoy it as a casual game to unwind. I don't practice any strategies, don't know any of the modern builds, don't really even go into games with a game plan. It really feels like I'm winning/losing at random too.
You call the game bad (massive glaring flaws???), than say you dont know modern builds and dont practice strategy, ofc you are gonna lose to people with less mechanics. And win some vs ppl with crap strategy and mechanics...
Get good builds, use your "superior" mechanics to keep production up and money low, and there will be a lot less "random losses to lesser players". If you are very good, use multi pronged attacks, drops etc to tax their multitasking. Save hurt units (even pros dont do this enough i think), get better positioning, focus fire more in battles if you can. Blink, spread units, use abilities. I could bet you money that there are a ton of things u can improve on, you just dont look hard enough.
In the end this is a strategy game, and should not be only about mechanics. You seem to be missing the strategy part...
learn a solid strategy thats prone to cheese, scout, and the game wont seem as random, if your builds have no directions, what else would you expect but random results? And drop the I'm better than these noobs and only lost because this game is crap attitude
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stop being conceited and accept that sc2 is different from bw. ^^;; I have 300 apm in sc2 and I still need more.
I am glad that you consider only mechanics as skills, because a one dimensional player like you won't get anywhere.
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One thing which I never understood why pros dont use, is just split your army in 3 fronts and keep poking and threatening their weak sides.
I've only seen MMA do this and in only a handfull of games.
That's a great apm sink, but you obviously need to be ridiculously good at scouting so you always know where your opponents main army is.
I'm trying to do that and I'm gold with 60 apm, Q_Q. I imagine you could do much better.
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I have lost countless games to sub 70 apm Protoss players after 16+ minute games averaging 225+ apm, 150+ EAPM and sub 5 second injects. Nothing like seeing them outresource you on the income screen with 30 less workers, 2 less bases, less than half the APM and zero multitask. It's not imbalanced, it's just frustrating. I wish there was a better way to attack Protoss/Terran when they are playing risky or turtle-ing off of two base.
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On February 17 2012 06:35 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
I have lost countless games to sub 70 apm Protoss players after 16+ minute games averaging 225+ apm, 150+ EAPM and sub 5 second injects. Nothing like seeing them outresource you on the income screen with 30 less workers, 2 less bases, less than half the APM and zero multitask. It's not imbalanced, it's just frustrating. I wish there was a better way to attack Protoss/Terran when they are playing risky or turtle-ing off of two base.
our workers dont bring minerals in any faster than yours. You are the one doing something wrong if you are being outresourced with a 30 worker lead.... especially if they have bad multitasking, so i can assume little harassment. talk about exaggerating things lol
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God as a broodwar player this post really pisses me off for some reason. You can answer your own question so easily buy asking yourself what you spend your apm on in broodwar. It's the exact same stuff, but in starcraft 2 you can do a whole lot more of it a whole lot easier. Scouting, harassing, never missing any upgrades, chrono boosts, mule drops, microing your army in battle constantly, moving your army about to keep the opposing player on edge, etc etc etc. All the exact same stuff in broodwar.
If you don't know "what do do with your apm" then you clearly don't know your strategies well enough or properly, which is the first thing in your op, which answers your own goddamn question.
And how can you even speak of "massive glaring flaws" when you open your post saying you don't practice any strategies or know any new builds properly? Imagine if some newb came into broodwar, and said the game had massive glairing flaws because he didn't know how to properly deal with siege tanks or vulture mines without first learning any proper strategies in the first place. Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it?
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Just do what I do and spam the shit out of everything to make yourself feel like a pro.
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On February 17 2012 06:55 LuckyFool wrote:
Just do what I do and spam the shit out of everything to make yourself feel like a pro.
Words of wisdom! =D
Do you still do the VA/DC dinners? I haven't been in a while now, sadly.
On February 17 2012 06:16 Steveling wrote:
One thing which I never understood why pros dont use, is just split your army in 3 fronts and keep poking and threatening their weak sides.
I've only seen MMA do this and in only a handfull of games.
That's a great apm sink, but you obviously need to be ridiculously good at scouting so you always know where your opponents main army is.
I'm trying to do that and I'm gold with 60 apm, Q_Q. I imagine you could do much better.
Only possible as terran because your units are fast enough to retreat, as long as you're not on creep. If you get caught with a small force as protoss it's dead, not to mention probably going to do no damage on its way out.
I do agree, that's a great way to play terran though.
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Ye. You bm dodger! Hope your apm drops to bronze status.
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On February 17 2012 07:06 LuckyFool wrote:
Ye. You bm dodger! Hope your apm drops to bronze status.
Well, I'll try to hit one up when I'm on Spring Break. I need me some korean BBQ.
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you're right it's super easy. that's why pros have to practice it all day and no one has even close to mastered the game mechanically. if you don't like the game, then don't play it. don't play it anyway and then proceed to whine about things you don't understand on a forum occupied by people seeking intelligent discussion.
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On February 17 2012 05:49 iokke wrote:
No offense but it this sounds like "I'm better than the player i lost to" QQ blog. If you lost you are not, period.
because no one ever loses to anyone worse than them, clearly
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On February 17 2012 03:57 darkscream wrote:
If you are actually macroing well, you'll be top masters/grand masters. I dunno if it answers your questions about APM but SC2 just is not about super micro management in the later stages of the game... Protoss is kind of the "lowest APM" race also, there isnt a lot extra for them to get. Zerg on the otherhand is an APM black hole - there's always more to do. I guess if you want to be challenged mechanically, roll some zerg up to master's league. Try to do muta/ling stuff in all the matchups, for example, and I think you'll find a sufficient number of tasks you can complete for advantages.
I was top masters, or whatever the top league was at the time, during beta and right after release. Actually, at the time, I was way slower and worse than I am now. I've seen my BW apm go up by about 50% since the start of beta. Not to mention I'm just playing that game at a much higher level than I was. So, if anything, my RTS skills have improved.
I think the problem is that I simply don't know how to apply them in SC2 anymore. Early on, people didn't have a good idea of how to play the game in general, and BW players had a massive massive advantage in terms of understanding how to construct builds and execute them. I will admit, the quality of play back then was pretty terrible, and now the difference between mid diamonds and GMs is much smaller than the difference between even the top and bottom of the highest league in beta. Mechanically, I don't think people got much better. I think they just learned how to execute builds and make the right units.
And yeah, I think I'll switch over to zerg and see how it goes. I just really really really hate zvz with a passion -_-
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On February 17 2012 07:19 Drizzt3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:49 iokke wrote:
No offense but it this sounds like "I'm better than the player i lost to" QQ blog. If you lost you are not, period. because no one ever loses to anyone worse than them, clearly
Consistently? No. You can have a bad day/game, but that game the winning player still was better. And odds are, if you lose you are worse then the winner, as much as we love to convince ourselves its not us, its the game. If you nitpick, sure u can have BO losses etc here and there, but overall you probably are worse then most players you lose to. Im sure it was the same in BW
Also if you have a lot of bad days, means you're not very good cause your inconsistent (I think i fall into this category)
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my friend was raging on me after i beat him 5-0, telling me how the hell i'm beating him with 40 bapm(1.4.2) while he is over 200.
does really suck that much to lose to someone with significantly lower apm?
i guess yes...since bw i focused on having low apm while everyone was spamming their way to korean status. just to rub it in their face. i dont see why difference of apm matters when the low apm player is able to reach 300 when needed.
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On February 17 2012 03:27 Count9 wrote:
The funny thing about apm is people that don't know the limitations of their apm will often lose to people who are much slower. If you have 200 apm and think that's enough to always look after your blink stalkers then you'll do some blink stalker harass. However, if it's not actually enough and all your blink stalkers die to a 100 apm a-move, it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that 200 wasn't actually enough to do the strategy you wanted.
That being said, yeah Blizz does cater to none mechanical players and it looks like they will continue to with the new expansion. It's why a lot of mechanical players like early aggressive or mid game aggressive plays. This forces their opponents to micro their units, not get supply blocked, keep building scvs, pull scvs if they're getting attacked etc. If they aren't mechanically sound then they get supply blocked and won't have enough units to hold off the aggression. If they don't make scvs then if the aggression doesn't kill them they can't carry on to the mid game. etc.
Basically, do aggressive builds that give you an advantage if you can micro and macro at the same time.
A good point. I always noticed that about koreans in BW on iccup as well as in SC2 - they just love aggressive plays that force the opponent to react to them, because they're just so much faster. I kind of hate playing against koreans on iccup cause I know they're going to do some crazy micro-oriented allin with 350 apm =P
It's just so opposite BW though - as a BW player, you want the longest game possible if you're the better player. Longer games give more opportunities to screw up and more points of weakness in your opponent's play to exploit.
In SC2, you want the opposite, according to what you say. I'm inclined to agree - the longer the game goes the less I feel like micro matters and the less any mechanical advantage I have seems to matter. After all, in that big engagement that SC2 boils down to, how much micro is there to do besides throw down a few spells?
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On February 17 2012 07:43 EternaLLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 03:27 Count9 wrote:
The funny thing about apm is people that don't know the limitations of their apm will often lose to people who are much slower. If you have 200 apm and think that's enough to always look after your blink stalkers then you'll do some blink stalker harass. However, if it's not actually enough and all your blink stalkers die to a 100 apm a-move, it has nothing to do with balance, it's just that 200 wasn't actually enough to do the strategy you wanted.
That being said, yeah Blizz does cater to none mechanical players and it looks like they will continue to with the new expansion. It's why a lot of mechanical players like early aggressive or mid game aggressive plays. This forces their opponents to micro their units, not get supply blocked, keep building scvs, pull scvs if they're getting attacked etc. If they aren't mechanically sound then they get supply blocked and won't have enough units to hold off the aggression. If they don't make scvs then if the aggression doesn't kill them they can't carry on to the mid game. etc.
Basically, do aggressive builds that give you an advantage if you can micro and macro at the same time. In SC2, you want the opposite, according to what you say. I'm inclined to agree - the longer the game goes the less I feel like micro matters and the less any mechanical advantage I have seems to matter. After all, in that big engagement that SC2 boils down to, how much micro is there to do besides throw down a few spells?
I think it matters a lot. Having a good position is huge, making sure all your units are attacking, make sure u focus right stuff with your Collosii , save hurt ones etc. You have to actually do all those things and they will make a difference if you are not insanely behind already. Take ghosts vs templar, as another example - dodging EMPs, feedbacking, using storms well, using WP with templars and so on can win you the game even if you are behind
Really there are a lot of things you can do to get yourself advantage. If you don't its because you keep telling yourself there's nothing to do.. well its your own fault.
And SC2 is not reverse, longer games do give better player a better chance to win with the same reasoning you described in BW. THe longer the game goes on, more you benefit from your mechanic advantages, like building workers nonstop for a simple example (ull get increasingly larger resource gap)
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If you are going into games with zero plan, know no builds, and are not practicing strategies... simply building whatever for whatever reason and then attacking with it at whatever time for whatever reason... you should never use the words "cheese" or "build order loss" because they don't apply to your games. Those words imply specific timings.
Go here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Protoss_Strategy
Write down a build for every match up on a sticky note, put them on your monitor, and practice them.
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So you feedback all ghosts and medivacs, hit your storms perfectly, also your forcefields, have zealots in a nice arch, manually control your blink stalkers to snipe medivacs and vikings, target marauder tank with immortals and avoid cliffs with your colossus so they can't be sniped, while warping in zealots or dt's to clean up drops or harass, and reinforcing your main army.
Good for you.
I don't know what you should use your apm for honestly. Chronoboost gateways?
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seems there is lingering the misconsept again, that sc2=less apm therefore more strategy, maybe the relative is true, but generally its not true. How can you compared 12 year old hardcore competition 12 h a day practice every day to a 2 year old game where the competition is not that high (pressure to preform) as in BW.
You need 11000 apm to perfectly micro your like 12 marines vs 20 benelings or something. There is allways something to do, allways, if you have excessive apm, your just not ment to use it. Position your units around, spread them perfectly when you ahve time (like bw zvz, you got time to perfectly line zerglings). There is allways allways something to do. Making sure mineral line, what isnt saturated has good worker coverage (close mineral patches have 2 workers). if you make observer, then when you have nothing to do, hotkey your observer and hop there and move it around even for 1 sec then go back to do something else.
Also it seems you have the case of:
macro 10/500
micro 10/200
map avareness 10/300
reading oponent 10/200
apm 100/200
tottally random numbers, but you get the idea. more apm never hurts, unless you have something to use it on. If your gold+ more apm never hurts, but isnt the main thing.
Some bw pros have 450-500 apm also  . I think by.hero and by.great ?? have like 450+ apm, go downlaod bw replay last time i downloaded one of theirs it was 15 minute game with 475 apm. even too much for bw (not about hand speed, but brain cant handle that much effective apm, alot of spam they have).
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Lol. I once played a game in BW vs a chinese player who had 400-something average apm. I won and checked his iccup profile. He had over 100 games and was D- In that moment i realized what apm is NOT.
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On February 17 2012 09:40 ae wrote:
Lol. I once played a game in BW vs a chinese player who had 400-something average apm. I won and checked his iccup profile. He had over 100 games and was D- In that moment i realized what apm is NOT.
sucks that julyzerg was ONLY chosein in proteam only because he had 400+ apm (sucked at everything else). and he became god in bw.
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On February 17 2012 08:44 aebriol wrote:
So you feedback all ghosts and medivacs, hit your storms perfectly, also your forcefields, have zealots in a nice arch, manually control your blink stalkers to snipe medivacs and vikings, target marauder tank with immortals and avoid cliffs with your colossus so they can't be sniped, while warping in zealots or dt's to clean up drops or harass, and reinforcing your main army.
Good for you.
I don't know what you should use your apm for honestly. Chronoboost gateways?
Nope. I do that too. Nobody is going to have perfect storms, of course, but all that kind of micro is honestly pretty elementary stuff and is common sense. Unit positioning/target firing/kiting is not really what I consider to be high level micro. Sure, you can do it better, but it's just not that important.
I mean, I can probably do all those things better.
(also, chronoing gateways doesn't work out too well if you have the right number of gates for your income, cause you'll just end up with idle gates as you have no money. It's good if your macro slips or something or you don't have enough gates,)
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On February 17 2012 16:34 EternaLLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 08:44 aebriol wrote:
So you feedback all ghosts and medivacs, hit your storms perfectly, also your forcefields, have zealots in a nice arch, manually control your blink stalkers to snipe medivacs and vikings, target marauder tank with immortals and avoid cliffs with your colossus so they can't be sniped, while warping in zealots or dt's to clean up drops or harass, and reinforcing your main army.
Good for you.
I don't know what you should use your apm for honestly. Chronoboost gateways? Nope. I do that too. Nobody is going to have perfect storms, of course, but all that kind of micro is honestly pretty elementary stuff and is common sense. Unit positioning/target firing/kiting is not really what I consider to be high level micro. Sure, you can do it better, but it's just not that important.
... well, it decides who wins or loses matches in the GSL. But I guess, those low level players aren't worth comparing you to.
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LeibSaiLeib you seem to be ignoring the games pace though.. SC2 is faster and the advantages of heavy micromanagement in engagements is obviously far less. 500 APM in like 5 seconds is far less micro than 500 APM over a typical sustained BW engagement; sometimes they basically stayed sustained constantly throughout the mid-late game in intense games it was crazy. It's actually not worth doing what you are saying past the early game, things like pulling back damaged units in high unit count situations is better spent keeping macro up or just general sweeping army decisions - making sure a new unit is out 100% on time and with your ball is obviously more important than microing to keep 1 unit already active in combat alive. Also because of the clumping and general unit behavior that one unit is simply not worth as much as it was to micro anyway.
Even with the things that you are saying that are feasible like arranging workers correctly it's barely giving you any advantage. The game needs to be more designed in the way tghat you can force someone in to multitasking situations they can't keep up with; it's a bit too rewarding in the opposite, and HotS looks to continue it if you got activate-and-forget units like the Shredder imo.
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On February 17 2012 19:46 infinity2k9 wrote:
LeibSaiLeib you seem to be ignoring the games pace though.. SC2 is faster and the advantages of heavy micromanagement in engagements is obviously far less. 500 APM in like 5 seconds is far less micro than 500 APM over a typical sustained BW engagement; sometimes they basically stayed sustained constantly throughout the mid-late game in intense games it was crazy. It's actually not worth doing what you are saying past the early game, things like pulling back damaged units in high unit count situations is better spent keeping macro up or just general sweeping army decisions - making sure a new unit is out 100% on time and with your ball is obviously more important than microing to keep 1 unit already active in combat alive. Also because of the clumping and general unit behavior that one unit is simply not worth as much as it was to micro anyway.
Even with the things that you are saying that are feasible like arranging workers correctly it's barely giving you any advantage. The game needs to be more designed in the way tghat you can force someone in to multitasking situations they can't keep up with; it's a bit too rewarding in the opposite, and HotS looks to continue it if you got activate-and-forget units like the Shredder imo.
I never compared the apm usage of sc2 and bw, you took your text out of thing air (wich describes current economy and politics quiet well). I was saying in my post apm isnt that important but more of it never hurts. I never also stated that you need same ammount of apm in sc2.
There is also something called sustaining apm, means if you dont have something to do in next 2 seconds, its better to spam brainlessly to keep up the momentum. The most amazing thing is that every pro knows that more apm (eapm) is better, noone ever says differently, but we allways argue about apm (usually add, that other things might be more important for lower then pro lvls usually, but thats the part they are quoted for, not that more apm never hurts).
Also you got the big army vs big armyu micro wrong, well yes alot of cases in sc2, its useless (ff, marauders, fungal). In big armys you dont pull away single units, you pull away few units at a time, watch any bw matcup (pvp zvz pvz pvt), you see its very common, instead of pulling away 1 unit, wich is useless , they take 4-5 units and pull them back, when the arch is so that they get most dps from enemy. You can do exacly the same thing in sc2, for example your geting flanked by zealots (no aoe from prootos), you take the units where the zealots come from and kite with them, other units will remain still to get max dps.
Also i like to bring up the insane apms of some bw pros only because it shows that if your T or Z and have under 300 apm, means you suck, period. One day sc2 will be like that too, sooner or later (metagame developement is stopped by the bad team setups in west, everyone has to play in competetive lvl, they have to win, so they are allways playing trusted strategies, in bw you got b teamers etc, who are often forced to practice one strategy for hundreds of games to see if its useful).
EDIT: I saw earlier speaking of basic micro, yeah unless your protoss and have only gateways micro is easy, but any other race you need to macro between your studder steping or whatever, and yes its possible, but alot of pros dont do that for some reason, even if they did it in bw. Also something as distant micro (where your units are not in your screen but still selected and you micro the outscreen units and the other units on screen) or minimap micro (was used sometimes in tvz early game to micro marines when you had 2 bases, clicking on minimap instead of the screen to micro) i havent seen anyone do either of those too and ofcourse every time you moved your untis you would select your macro buildings and just start maybe one marauder if you dont have tome to press d twice, do that every studder steping and you got macro units coming(but gameplay seems havent gone to the step), comparable would be muta micro in tvz in bw, wher you literally had to have 500+ apm since you had to muta micro and macro at the same time.
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EPT
