On February 15 2012 08:08 Alvin853 wrote: @ Destructicon
you're comparing Snipe to Storm, Fungal Growth and EMP... wait a second... EMP is a Ghost ability, that compares to the other two, so why exactly do Ghosts need another strong ability? Is this because of the fact that Ghosts cost 50 gas less than HTs and Infestors? Or because you don't need to research anything like Storm or Pathogen Glands to make decent use of Ghosts? (Ok you could argue about Cloak, but then you'd also have to take Burrow into account, and maybe Warp Prism for HTs.)
Ghosts are definetely less advanced along the tech tree compared to Infestors and HTs, so they really shouldn't keep up with HTs and Infestors when comparing them on a unit against unit basis.
By that logic BCs and Carriers definitely need a buff seeing how Broodlords are by far the most useful among the three.
While I can agree with QXC's feeling about creativity possibilities, imo Blizzard isn't doing something particularly bad. Or better: QXC's solution seems reasonable and viable, but we should ask ourselves a question.
"Why should an unit be viable for every situation?"
I mean: Sc2 is a strategy game, and strategy games are supposed to reward the players who make the correct decisions and punish those who don't. If a Zerg chooses to go mass ling against sentry/colossi he is supposed to lose. Being due to the lack of scouting or because of a wrong decision, he made units who weren't suited to deal with the threat. The same applies if a Toss goes DT against raven, or whatever example you may find.
Now, why should the ghost be a free pass valid all-rounder against every army composition? Up until now, ghosts have always been a correct choice no matter the threat. They are NEVER money wasted. Terrans are already the race with the most flexible units and I don't see how nerfing the snipe can ruin their army. Especially since Terrans have already the correct answers to the threats the snipe answers AS WELL: banelings? Tanks. Ultralisks? Marauder. Broodlords? Vikings. I could still agree if the patch would make the ghost completely useless, but it appears not to be the case: EMP is always valid vs Toss, the snipe will still work against casters like the feedback and tactical nukes will still be valid.
The only real issue will be that Terrans won't be able to mass ghosts anymore in order to deal with everything by themselves.
I first saw this in SOTG. And i have to agree with you qxc and say it's a brilliant idea, not to make the ghost useless vs other stuff than casters. Hope this will get some attention from blizzard!
On February 15 2012 07:41 Kare wrote: I dont even get how it is a reasonable nerf against zerg tier 3. The biggest reason ghost play seems so good vs Zerg when you watch MvP etc do it, is because of the maps. The only maps where I have seen it is metalopolis, shakuras plateau and shattered temple. All those maps is just split map in half and camp in the middle, which makes ghosts really good. Not to mention that good zergs have actually been able to destroy mass ghost play, they just needed time to get used to it and learn how to defeat it. The only answer to Brood Lord/Infestor/Corruptor as terran after this patch is Ravens with seeker missile. Seeker missiles are bad. Zerg is going to win every lategame situation if played properly from this point on. Its not something I think, it is a fact.
No dude, it's definitely just something you think.
Return ghosts their lockdown ability (upgraded to bio units!)
I remember the first videos of sc2, when the new units were presented. The first thing that shocked me was burrowing supply depots, the second was snipe shot of enemy marine with a cloaked ghost. Blizzard is changing their original idea of this ability, which is really sad.
Completely agree with QXC's blog. Nice to see a followup on state of the game. Looked like everyone (so Catz, Incontrol, JP, QXC) were in agreeance that this was a poor nerf.
All the proposed snipe nerf is doing is like an energy cost increase to snipe. But ghosts need a way to dump that 25 energy, kind of like FB for HT, and more like autoturret and IT for ravens/infestors. It's not a primary spell, but has uses. But increasing the energy cost would hurt the versatility of the ghost.
So instead, a damage nerf. And not really a nerf, it increases the ability of the ghost to deal with casters, which is what they are supposed to counter in the first place.
Being able to snipe mutas, snipe roaches, snipe out a group of banes, were all ridiculous to begin with.
While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post.
- Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used.
Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here.
What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot).
My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?).
In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 )
On February 15 2012 05:39 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: And Blizzard said pros don't know anything about balance. The fools. Simply transforming +25 psionic to -25 massive is a great and amazingly simple idea that I wonder why Blizzard didn't come up with themselves.
First of all, I think we should give everything a chance to work itself out. As a Starcraft II fan however, I agree with the idea, however I think the full 50 damage against Zerg is still too high, perhaps 25 damage+ 25 psi/armored - 25 massive (cancels with armored) or something like that would be perfect.
On February 15 2012 08:50 Thraundil wrote: While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post.
- Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used.
Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here.
What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot).
My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?).
In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 )
I don't think anyone is worried about snipes in TvP as long as Templars die in relatively few shots. It's the TvZ that's getting ridiculous with the proposed changes.
On February 15 2012 08:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: all i hear is terren whining. just because u had a one hit wonder gstl all kill doesnt mean you know more than blizzard
qxc, merz, dde, ThorZaiN and even MorroW to a certain extent has voiced their opinions about this change. When that many Terrans (of which are dwindling in numbers and will continue to do so if this change goes thru) say it isn't right, you have a problem.
And if we heard more from the Koreans I'm pretty sure MMA and Mvp aren't too psyched about this either.
based on what is there a "dwindling number"?
im not saying i support the change i just think that over reacting just hurts the arguments that its bad
I agreed; as a Zerg Player I know Ghosts are too strong in Late Game ZVT, but this is too much of an Overnerf, and may discourage use of the unit altogether (BAD).
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote: I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.
And I'm zerg.
That wouldn't fix anything, you clearly didn't read the post. 35 damage would still be next to nothing when fighting Marines or Marauders. Nobody is trying to snipe a Zergling, maybe Banelings, but 25 Ghost energy isn't worth a Zergling.
More on topic: this is a really great post by qxc, it makes a lot of sense, would really make the game better, and therefore will not be implemented by Blizzard. Apparently Blizzard still hasn't heard of qxc T.T
On February 15 2012 08:50 Thraundil wrote: While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post.
- Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used.
Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here.
What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot).
My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?).
In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 )
Btw you can't overmake Ghosts in TvP actually once the Toss starts to Mass Up Zealots you need in masses them. They are by far the best solution to Zealots with or without Snipe.
EPT
