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On February 15 2012 09:29 EclipZe wrote:
Yes, all of your points are valid, but every race has had there caster unit nerfed (or in the case of zerg, buffed then nerfed.) Every race has advantages, every race has disadvantages. HT or Infestors don't have a comparable ability to begin with, so to say that this is a nerf of ridiculous proportions when it hasn't come out yet is a little too harsh for me. Maybe I am a little butt hurt, but it is very difficult to upgrade abilities for protoss as of late. 1, Charge 2, Gravitic Boosters(obs speed) 3, Gravitic Drive(Warp Prism Speed) 4, Extended Thermal Lance(colossus) 5, Psionic Storm(HT) 6, Hallucination(sentry) 7, Blink(Stalker) 8 Graviton Catapult(Carrier). Of the eight upgrades, #2 and 3 cannot help in a straight up fight. One could also argue that #8 is also useless as carriers are as useful as sand in your underwear. So we have 5 viable unit ability upgrades. Now for Terran, 1, Nitro Packs(Reapers) 2, 250mm Strike Cannons(Thor), 3 Cloaking Field(banshee), 4 Concussive Shells(Marauder), 5 Personal Cloaking(Ghost), 6 Seeker Missile(Raven), 7 Siege Tech(tanks), 8 Stimpack(Marine Marauder) 9 Weapon Refit(Battle Cruiser) 10 Behemoth Reactor (Battle Cruiser) 11 Caduceus Reactor(Medivac) 12 Corvid Reactor(Raven) 13 Moebius Reactor(Ghost) 14 Combat Shield(Marine) 15 Infernal Pre-Igniter(Hellion). My point is kind of simple... You are having an ability nerfed, it sucks, but others have already felt your pain,,,,
your post is irrelevant... i don't know why you would list the upgrades for no apparent reason. it's not about being 'butthurt' because 'our' race is getting nerfed.
it's about what is better for the game.
1. is snipe overpowered? arguably against zerg t3
2. is there any way it can be fixed without making it crap versus stuff other than zerg t3? yes, many suggestions floating around
3. does terran have any other way to deal with zerg t3 cost effectively? maybe, maybe not. but if not then blizzard just made a load of extra work for themselves for 'fixing' snipe which wasn't even broken in the first place.
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Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
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On February 15 2012 08:32 MavivaM wrote:
While I can agree with QXC's feeling about creativity possibilities, imo Blizzard isn't doing something particularly bad.
Or better: QXC's solution seems reasonable and viable, but we should ask ourselves a question.
"Why should an unit be viable for every situation?"
I mean: Sc2 is a strategy game, and strategy games are supposed to reward the players who make the correct decisions and punish those who don't.
If a Zerg chooses to go mass ling against sentry/colossi he is supposed to lose. Being due to the lack of scouting or because of a wrong decision, he made units who weren't suited to deal with the threat.
The same applies if a Toss goes DT against raven, or whatever example you may find.
Now, why should the ghost be a free pass valid all-rounder against every army composition?
Up until now, ghosts have always been a correct choice no matter the threat.
They are NEVER money wasted.
Terrans are already the race with the most flexible units and I don't see how nerfing the snipe can ruin their army.
Especially since Terrans have already the correct answers to the threats the snipe answers AS WELL: banelings? Tanks. Ultralisks? Marauder. dueBroodlords? Vikings.
I could still agree if the patch would make the ghost completely useless, but it appears not to be the case: EMP is always valid vs Toss, the snipe will still work against casters like the feedback and tactical nukes will still be valid.
The only real issue will be that Terrans won't be able to mass ghosts anymore in order to deal with everything by themselves.
There are actually Colossi timings in TvP where if you go Ghosts blindly you'll almost certainly lose for lack of Vikings. And if you go Ghosts/Vikings and the Protoss goes double forge, it opens up a gigantic timing window where you actually can't have good upgrades and the Protoss will have 3-3.
You later talk about how Tanks > Banelings, Marauders > Ultralisks, and Vikings > Broodlords, which is a complete oversimplification of the game. Nobody is going to go pure Baneling, nobody is going to go pure Ultra, and nobody is going to go pure Broodlord. If they do, sure those units crush them, but that's just like saying Terran goes Marine, counter with Baneling. Terran goes Tank, counter with Mutalisk. Terran goes X, counter with Y.
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On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote:
Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
Most people here chose to ignore the +5 damage, because it benefits them. But yeah, it should not happen. From the beginning I don't understand why qxc wants 50 and not 45 base damage.
There is nothing in the game, that currently suggests that snipe should be buffed against other units. QXC said it himself, the situations in which it would benefit the ghost are still unexplored, so we have no idea if it is indeed needed. Personnaly, I don't think it is.
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I believe i saw the proposed only nerf to massive damage on the blizzard comments and/or forums during the patch announcement would probably be good to give credit to who thought of that nerf to massive only for snipe first.
I suppose i saw others mention it i just noticed you used it as a discussion point on SOTG.
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I really like the OP's idea of keep ghosts the way they are but only nerfing the damage vs massive, that seems to be a perfect solution actually.
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Didn't think of this before. I'm toss so snipe didn't really bother me that much since EMP was more effective. Good to think outside the box qxc.
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On February 15 2012 10:12 MandoRelease wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote:
Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected. Most people here chose to ignore the +5 damage, because it benefits them. But yeah, it should not happen. From the beginning I don't understand why qxc wants 50 and not 45 base damage.There is nothing in the game, that currently suggests that snipe should be buffed against other units. QXC said it himself, the situations in which it would benefit the ghost are still unexplored, so we have no idea if it is indeed needed. Personnaly, I don't think it is.
That 45 -> 50 is a pretty significant change. It'll buff TvZ early-mid game by making infestors potentially, (don't know till we see it in action) completely useless or shitty and strengthen the ghost significantly overall except vs t3. By breaking ZvT it significantly increases its effectiveness by 2shotting infestors instead of 3. It'll force the zerg into a t3 rush and significantly weaken its mid game and force all-ins more often.
Also, the 45 -> 25 + bonus to psionic is fairly reasonable. This way the terran will actually make something other then mass ghosts (eg vikings or thor/tanks) to combat t3 zerg and infestors. Vikings were also already a good counter to them anyhow. Also, it won't change its effectiveness to zerg infestors. One thing I can agree is that we can also do reduce damage to massive.
Also we rarely see ghost snipe being used in TvP except vs HT so it won't affect that matchup at all.
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Why is no one talking about the fact that ghosts can still cloak and still use EMP and Nuke? I believe all of those make it a useful unit even if it didn't have snipe at all.
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On February 15 2012 09:52 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 15 2012 08:32 MavivaM wrote:
While I can agree with QXC's feeling about creativity possibilities, imo Blizzard isn't doing something particularly bad.
Or better: QXC's solution seems reasonable and viable, but we should ask ourselves a question.
"Why should an unit be viable for every situation?"
I mean: Sc2 is a strategy game, and strategy games are supposed to reward the players who make the correct decisions and punish those who don't.
If a Zerg chooses to go mass ling against sentry/colossi he is supposed to lose. Being due to the lack of scouting or because of a wrong decision, he made units who weren't suited to deal with the threat.
The same applies if a Toss goes DT against raven, or whatever example you may find.
Now, why should the ghost be a free pass valid all-rounder against every army composition?
Up until now, ghosts have always been a correct choice no matter the threat.
They are NEVER money wasted.
Terrans are already the race with the most flexible units and I don't see how nerfing the snipe can ruin their army.
Especially since Terrans have already the correct answers to the threats the snipe answers AS WELL: banelings? Tanks. Ultralisks? Marauder. dueBroodlords? Vikings.
I could still agree if the patch would make the ghost completely useless, but it appears not to be the case: EMP is always valid vs Toss, the snipe will still work against casters like the feedback and tactical nukes will still be valid.
The only real issue will be that Terrans won't be able to mass ghosts anymore in order to deal with everything by themselves. You later talk about how Tanks > Banelings, Marauders > Ultralisks, and Vikings > Broodlords, which is a complete oversimplification of the game. Nobody is going to go pure Baneling, nobody is going to go pure Ultra, and nobody is going to go pure Broodlord. If they do, sure those units crush them, but that's just like saying Terran goes Marine, counter with Baneling. Terran goes Tank, counter with Mutalisk. Terran goes X, counter with Y.
My point is that until the patch comes the ghost will be a viable counter for all those threats at once.
He also snipes roaches, just because.
Pew-pew-pew-pew-pew-pew
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Hmm..insightful post..I hadn't thought about the effects of the snipe nerf besides just from the zerg pov. Specific snipe damage numbers aside, the idea itself makes sense. I remember watching TvT's in GSL last year with ghost openers, which was pretty interesting. I guess it doesn't really make sense for a tech unit (tier...1.5'ish? what tier is ghost in??) to be unable to easily kill a tier 1 unit.
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I think, what blizzard is trying to do here, is shift the TvZ late game AWAY from mass ghosts to a greater utilization of vikings vs. broodlords, and a mech shift against ultralisks. With the buff vs. psionic, and a gradual shift to mech this tacitly nerfs infestors, and results in fewer spell casters for both sides, which, I think is Blizzard's ULTIMATE goal here.
Massing spell casters makes the game really either really fragile or very difficult to push against, which is a strange role for CASTERS to be in, as opposed to an incredibly dynamic game [fragile but more exciting] or a siege battle [makes more sense with attacking units.]
In my opinion, trying to limit spell casters more will:
Make lower and middle levels easier.
Push higher levels away from a hard counter mentality, which is makes for deeper games.
Ghosts are REALLY good against a huge variety of units in both Toss AND Zerg, albeit representing a potential unexplored.
Besides, ghosts have nukes, and IMO more people should use more spells.
Though if they keep this nerf/buff, I think they should make overseers psionic.  It'll imply a slightly larger back and forth between both cloak and overseers more.
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Ghost change would have been good, if they didn't think of something off the top of their head and place it in the game :\
This change for ghosts doesn't even seem smart to implement :\ i think they needed to do something with ghosts and pulled it out of their ass
GO GET 'EM QXC!!!!!!!! HUNT DOWN BLIZZ AND SHOW THIS TO THEM!
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This post puts the QQ in qxc.
+ Show Spoiler +but in all seriousness, I think it is too early to definitively say that the nerf is "too much"
Yeah, ghosts will have fewer options i.e. sniping marines in a ghost rush TvT, but frankly they are already hands down the most versatile unit in the game, I think removing a few of their applications is probably not going to make them a "useless unit" like many terrans are afraid of. Let's give the changes a GSL season or two worth of testing and revisit things then, shall we? I think that's really the only way we're going to be able to come to a solid conclusion regarding the ghost change.
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On February 15 2012 09:06 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 08:59 SecretCobraz wrote:
I agreed; as a Zerg Player I know Ghosts are too strong in Late Game ZVT, but this is too much of an Overnerf, and may discourage use of the unit altogether (BAD). That's what Blizzard wants to do though. Reapers are used in TvZ -> Reaper nerf -> Hardly ever used in TvZ again Thors are used in TvP -> Thor nerf -> Hardly ever used in TvP again EDIT: Hellions are used in TvT -> 1.4 BF nerf -> Mech is hardly viable unless you completely outclass your opponent, and even then it is a situational thing. Ghosts are used in TvZ -> Ghost nerf -> Will hardly ever be used in TvZ again I kind of wish that Mvp or MMA played Zerg or Protoss so Terran wouldn't be getting nerfed. If you keep "fixing" the game, but they still keep winning, maybe they're just better than other players *GASP* Outside of the elite Korean elite guard of Code S Terrans, there are almost no Terrans who are successful in major tournaments who aren't a part of that group. ThorZaIN occasionally wins a tournament, SeleCT does well against non-Koreans, Kas is a beast but never seems to have the steam to power through an entire tournament. Even in Code A/Code A qualifiers, Terrans are rarely successful. And yet Terran still is constantly subject to nerfs. It's ridiculous.
I agree wholeheartedly to this one. Instead of giving the game more time to evolve more strategies they are just wiping them and basically telling you "how to play the game" when they don't even know it in the first place.
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On February 15 2012 10:37 Rikou wrote:
Why is no one talking about the fact that ghosts can still cloak and still use EMP and Nuke? I believe all of those make it a useful unit even if it didn't have snipe at all.
Actually a very good point. Fire off a nuke at an unguarded expansion and charge into the Protoss/Zerg army and force him to either go around the map and find the red dot and pull workers or engage poorly with his main army. TBH now that I think of it it takes even less multi-tasking than drops and you will end up forcing detection and defenses all over the map for only 100/100 (Cloak is useful, too) I mean except at the highest levels not every player will have Cannons/Spores/Spines/Obs everywhere to defend.
But of course if we Terrans actually learn how to utilise it properly it'll conveniently become crap in patch 1.4.4
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On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote:
Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
SC2 has much more specialist units. Most BW units were viable against everything, which was the old ghost.
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On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote:
Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
bwahahaha at least state something thats actually viable... maybe if zerg opponent was struck by a car or something  ... its about as likely as a nuke killing every bl and infestor at the same time.
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On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote:
Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
Yeah, someone talked about the +5 damage buff on page one.
EDIT: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=311941#16
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I like blizzards change way more than urs
Why would u even buff snipe to 50 dmg? Oo
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EPT
