EPTHowever, I do think that some units are meant to NOT be built in every situation. Ghosts were already overpowered from the very beginning and look how much they needed to nerf it... and I think ghosts are still amazing. Sure, you won't be able to do as many things with them, but you can still nuke, cloak kill workers, and more importantly: EMP. We'll never know for sure until the patch hits though, so maybe try critiquing after that?
The Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong - Page 15
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
However, I do think that some units are meant to NOT be built in every situation. Ghosts were already overpowered from the very beginning and look how much they needed to nerf it... and I think ghosts are still amazing. Sure, you won't be able to do as many things with them, but you can still nuke, cloak kill workers, and more importantly: EMP. We'll never know for sure until the patch hits though, so maybe try critiquing after that? | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On February 15 2012 08:59 turdburgler wrote: based on what is there a "dwindling number"? im not saying i support the change i just think that over reacting just hurts the arguments that its bad Are you actually denying that the Terran population isn't reducing right now? We're less than 30% now, last I saw the numbers. | ||
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On February 15 2012 09:02 S_SienZ wrote: Are you actually denying that the Terran population isn't reducing right now? We're less than 30% now, last I saw the numbers. From Gold to Masters, Terran is 25-30% of the population, depending on league. Also least popular race in each of those leagues. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all | ||
Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
BTW I think the new Metropolis map is basically made for qxc, since you (eventually) have to scan the island! | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
 Since the snipe is really only a problem versus Broodlords and Ultralisks, perhaps there could be something that only accounts for those two specific units, because solving the relationship of those three shouldn't ruin snipe as a cool and variable ability. Seeing as how they are the only two massive/biological units in the game they could make it so snipe does less damage versus massive or something. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On February 15 2012 08:59 SecretCobraz wrote: I agreed; as a Zerg Player I know Ghosts are too strong in Late Game ZVT, but this is too much of an Overnerf, and may discourage use of the unit altogether (BAD). That's what Blizzard wants to do though. Reapers are used in TvZ -> Reaper nerf -> Hardly ever used in TvZ again Thors are used in TvP -> Thor nerf -> Hardly ever used in TvP again EDIT: Hellions are used in TvT -> 1.4 BF nerf -> Mech is hardly viable unless you completely outclass your opponent, and even then it is a situational thing. Ghosts are used in TvZ -> Ghost nerf -> Will hardly ever be used in TvZ again I kind of wish that Mvp or MMA played Zerg or Protoss so Terran wouldn't be getting nerfed. If you keep "fixing" the game, but they still keep winning, maybe they're just better than other players *GASP* Outside of the elite Korean elite guard of Code S Terrans, there are almost no Terrans who are successful in major tournaments who aren't a part of that group. ThorZaIN occasionally wins a tournament, SeleCT does well against non-Koreans, Kas is a beast but never seems to have the steam to power through an entire tournament. Even in Code A/Code A qualifiers, Terrans are rarely successful. And yet Terran still is constantly subject to nerfs. It's ridiculous. | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
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PopcornColonel
United States769 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
Well said, QXC, your proposal is wise and better than the current proposal. Both in terms of balance, and excitement(which is more important). | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On February 15 2012 09:06 Elyvilon wrote: From Gold to Masters, Terran is 25-30% of the population, depending on league. Also least popular race in each of those leagues. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all Brain fart arrrghhh one of the reasons I shouldn't post before sleeping. I meant what you mean. Double negation fail =.= | ||
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MandoRelease
France374 Posts
On February 15 2012 08:50 Thraundil wrote: While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post. - Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used. Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here. What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot). My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?). In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 ) I agree with your post, I tried to say basically the same thing (with uglier words) and it went unnoticed. It seems difficult to have a discussion about this in this thread. | ||
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NightHawk929
79 Posts
50 -25massive would be a fantastic change, there's no reason to change TvP and TvT over something that's only a problem in TvZ. | ||
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MinimalistSC2
United States121 Posts
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Skrita
Czech Republic55 Posts
On February 15 2012 08:32 MavivaM wrote: While I can agree with QXC's feeling about creativity possibilities, imo Blizzard isn't doing something particularly bad. Or better: QXC's solution seems reasonable and viable, but we should ask ourselves a question. "Why should an unit be viable for every situation?" I mean: Sc2 is a strategy game, and strategy games are supposed to reward the players who make the correct decisions and punish those who don't. If a Zerg chooses to go mass ling against sentry/colossi he is supposed to lose. Being due to the lack of scouting or because of a wrong decision, he made units who weren't suited to deal with the threat. The same applies if a Toss goes DT against raven, or whatever example you may find. Now, why should the ghost be a free pass valid all-rounder against every army composition? Up until now, ghosts have always been a correct choice no matter the threat. They are NEVER money wasted. Terrans are already the race with the most flexible units and I don't see how nerfing the snipe can ruin their army. Especially since Terrans have already the correct answers to the threats the snipe answers AS WELL: banelings? Tanks. Ultralisks? Marauder. dueBroodlords? Vikings. I could still agree if the patch would make the ghost completely useless, but it appears not to be the case: EMP is always valid vs Toss, the snipe will still work against casters like the feedback and tactical nukes will still be valid. The only real issue will be that Terrans won't be able to mass ghosts anymore in order to deal with everything by themselves. Well in my opinionn you are wrong with suggesting viability of ghosts in every situation. They are almost usless agains ling/roach ling/muta or anything that is based around lots of cheap units. And lets imagine a timing push with 20 marines and 3 siege tanks, if the ghosts are viable then with 17 marines 1 tank and 2 ghosts the push should be nearly as effective(i think it is clear that this is not the case) . Look at an infestor, it would always help to have a few of them around(versitale and not a direct counter to anything for which you dont have correct answers before) but they are an investment which is not viable all the time. And is kind of impossible to have all the correct answers(now) or at least answer that keeps you alive(after the patch) to all the treats at one point in time, so terrans lategame would have to get to a guessing game(since their ability to react is delayed by mechanics and limited by the number of production buildings): what composition do I counter? If you guess right you have a chance to win, if you guess wrong you die(not mentioning the fact that vikings arent effective against broodlord corruptor infestor without gosu splitting) And as far as wasting money goes any caster unit in SC2 is NEVER money wasted, unless of course it instantly dies which can happen to every race. And like every other caster unit they need support(without marines and tanks? seriously?, infestors without any lings, roaches or broodlord/corruptor) And to express how i feel about the change, i agree with qxc  Anyway i hope i didnt piss of anybody, GL HF all | ||
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EclipZe
United States39 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On February 15 2012 09:15 S_SienZ wrote: Brain fart arrrghhh one of the reasons I shouldn't post before sleeping. I meant what you mean. Double negation fail =.= No, your wording was fine, I was just trying to elaborate. | ||
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Sluggy
United States128 Posts
On February 15 2012 09:29 EclipZe wrote: Yes, all of your points are valid, but every race has had there caster unit nerfed (or in the case of zerg, buffed then nerfed.) Every race has advantages, every race has disadvantages. HT or Infestors don't have a comparable ability to begin with, so to say that this is a nerf of ridiculous proportions when it hasn't come out yet is a little too harsh for me. Maybe I am a little butt hurt, but it is very difficult to upgrade abilities for protoss as of late. 1, Charge 2, Gravitic Boosters(obs speed) 3, Gravitic Drive(Warp Prism Speed) 4, Extended Thermal Lance(colossus) 5, Psionic Storm(HT) 6, Hallucination(sentry) 7, Blink(Stalker) 8 Graviton Catapult(Carrier). Of the eight upgrades, #2 and 3 cannot help in a straight up fight. One could also argue that #8 is also useless as carriers are as useful as sand in your underwear. So we have 5 viable unit ability upgrades. Now for Terran, 1, Nitro Packs(Reapers) 2, 250mm Strike Cannons(Thor), 3 Cloaking Field(banshee), 4 Concussive Shells(Marauder), 5 Personal Cloaking(Ghost), 6 Seeker Missile(Raven), 7 Siege Tech(tanks), 8 Stimpack(Marine Marauder) 9 Weapon Refit(Battle Cruiser) 10 Behemoth Reactor (Battle Cruiser) 11 Caduceus Reactor(Medivac) 12 Corvid Reactor(Raven) 13 Moebius Reactor(Ghost) 14 Combat Shield(Marine) 15 Infernal Pre-Igniter(Hellion). My point is kind of simple... You are having an ability nerfed, it sucks, but others have already felt your pain,,,, Your point is taken but not really valid. Blizzard has done a great job making units useful at all stages of the game, this change is a step in the wrong direction. Counting nerfs does nothing and the game should only be looked at in its current state. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On February 15 2012 09:18 MandoRelease wrote: I agree with your post, I tried to say basically the same thing (with uglier words) and it went unnoticed. It seems difficult to have a discussion about this in this thread. That argument doesn't make any sense. The point is that Ghosts outside of their ability vs Tier 3 Zerg WEREN'T too powerful, yet it's getting extremely nerfed. Just because you don't NEED Snipe to kill Zealots or Mutalisks, nerfing it doesn't make the game "more balanced." To try and prove how ridiculous and stupid your argument is, here's an example: High Templar storm should be reduced to half the damage. It still does damage to MMM or Mutalisks, but you have to rely more on your other units more now too. If you want to make snipe solely used for anti-spellcaster usage, make them more effective. Right now, it's not like they are guaranteed to stop High Templar, and for the most part it basically comes down to who has better micro. I'm all for a game in which the person with better micro wins, but if the Terran is building a unit with the sole intent of beating High Templar, and the Templar has an equal chance against the Ghost, then that kind of defeats the purpose. Also, the fact that Snipe would be better against other Zerg units is a good thing in my opinion: take away a place where they were "too good" and give them a new place to fill. It's something that would be interesting to test. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On February 15 2012 09:29 EclipZe wrote: Yes, all of your points are valid, but every race has had there caster unit nerfed (or in the case of zerg, buffed then nerfed.) Every race has advantages, every race has disadvantages. HT or Infestors don't have a comparable ability to begin with, so to say that this is a nerf of ridiculous proportions when it hasn't come out yet is a little too harsh for me. Maybe I am a little butt hurt, but it is very difficult to upgrade abilities for protoss as of late. 1, Charge 2, Gravitic Boosters(obs speed) 3, Gravitic Drive(Warp Prism Speed) 4, Extended Thermal Lance(colossus) 5, Psionic Storm(HT) 6, Hallucination(sentry) 7, Blink(Stalker) 8 Graviton Catapult(Carrier). Of the eight upgrades, #2 and 3 cannot help in a straight up fight. One could also argue that #8 is also useless as carriers are as useful as sand in your underwear. So we have 5 viable unit ability upgrades. Now for Terran, 1, Nitro Packs(Reapers) 2, 250mm Strike Cannons(Thor), 3 Cloaking Field(banshee), 4 Concussive Shells(Marauder), 5 Personal Cloaking(Ghost), 6 Seeker Missile(Raven), 7 Siege Tech(tanks), 8 Stimpack(Marine Marauder) 9 Weapon Refit(Battle Cruiser) 10 Behemoth Reactor (Battle Cruiser) 11 Caduceus Reactor(Medivac) 12 Corvid Reactor(Raven) 13 Moebius Reactor(Ghost) 14 Combat Shield(Marine) 15 Infernal Pre-Igniter(Hellion). My point is kind of simple... You are having an ability nerfed, it sucks, but others have already felt your pain,,,, What an awful "argument" you have there. You're honestly trying to say that Carriers are less useful than Behemoth or Caduceus Reactor? Have you ever seen a Terran research Caduceus Reactor on purpose with the intent to have the upgrade complete? (it gets researched sometimes so that the Terran can deceive their opponent into thinking that they have Cloak on the way). The idea of counting upgrades doesn't make any sense, as it doesn't prove anything, but if we're talking about worthless upgrades, Thor Cannons can get thrown on there, as the only time I've ever seen a pro use them was Jjakji in a TvP--and he used the cannons on rocks to drain his Thors of energy... I've at least seen players like White-Ra or HongUn use Carriers, even if it is not the most effective unit. I'm not going to say that Carriers are good, because they're not, but they have a lot more potential than the majority of Terran stuff you posted. Also, why count Combat Shields? That's just kind of a standard upgrade that you get relatively early just like Warpgate Research. And upgraded Warp Prisms are near impossible to kill as a Terran (can't speak from a Zerg's POV), so as far as late game harass that's a great unit. | ||
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