On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
Last I checked nobody gets the BF upgrade anymore. It's one thing to kill an upgrade it's another to kill a unit.
As Protoss, its hard for me to feel sorry about this... at least you still have GHOSTS! Blizzard taking away our carriers and mothership and replacing it with lesser units, NOW that's garbage! To top it off, the Ghost nerf kills our HT's easier?! Great... the one unit that can occasionally fend off mass bio (if we're lucky)? What great injustice!
On February 15 2012 11:55 ucinv wrote: As Protoss, its hard for me to feel sorry about this... at least you still have GHOSTS! Blizzard taking away our carriers and mothership and replacing it with lesser units, NOW that's garbage! To top it off, the Ghost nerf kills our HT's easier?! Great... the one unit that can occasionally fend off mass bio (if we're lucky)? What great injustice!
It takes the same amount of shots for an HT, do the math.
Also the 50 damage has almost no significant effect except for zealots, other ghosts, roaches, and obviously infestors. I'd even argue that tiny boost against zealots is fair after the emp nerf.
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
Last I checked nobody gets the BF upgrade anymore. It's one thing to kill an upgrade it's another to kill a unit.
Oh wow, check again. That way you'd make a more educated comment.
On February 15 2012 11:32 Katsura wrote: I like blizzards change way more than urs
Why would u even buff snipe to 50 dmg? Oo
You missed his main point bro. 50 damage is just a number. His main point is that the nerf to 25 + 25 psonic is pointless. qxc could very well mean 45 damage + 5 to psonic + 45 - (10 to 20) to massive
On February 15 2012 08:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: all i hear is terren whining. just because u had a one hit wonder gstl all kill doesnt mean you know more than blizzard
qxc, merz, dde, ThorZaiN and even MorroW to a certain extent has voiced their opinions about this change. When that many Terrans (of which are dwindling in numbers and will continue to do so if this change goes thru) say it isn't right, you have a problem.
And if we heard more from the Koreans I'm pretty sure MMA and Mvp aren't too psyched about this either.
The key there is that Morrow plays the matchup from both sides at a competitive level. If he thinks this is an overreaction he is probably not very biased about it. I play both races myself and agree as well. I think it is too big of a change in a matchup that was already quite well balanced. A slight nerf may have been justified, but I don't think that mass ghosts were imbalanced either.
On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote: Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
He's just throwing out a value, I don't think you need to pick it apart that much. That's by no means the major point of his post or the discussion, nor is it the real modification to damage in question.
Edit: I'll also say that he may have added that because Blizzard wanted to give ghosts that extra +5 to psionic, so that would compensate for that. That's my best guess. Regardless, it's sort of a side comment and doesn't need to be discussed.
On February 15 2012 07:43 namste wrote: I suppose you've never actually used ghosts. They're so slow that they get caught by slowlings, their auto attack, albeit powerful is really slow. They can't be microed properly. Ghosts cost a lot, they can't be massed only for their auto-attacks. With the proposed changes I rather take 1½ siege tanks than a ghost.
Yes, I have used them. They're still faster than HTs, plus they have an auto attack, can be healed, and have more versatile abilities. Yes, they're slower than marines/marauders, but to say "they can't be microed properly" is a load of crap. Again, compared to HTs they're a lot easier to micro.
On February 15 2012 08:08 Alvin853 wrote: @ Destructicon
you're comparing Snipe to Storm, Fungal Growth and EMP... wait a second... EMP is a Ghost ability, that compares to the other two, so why exactly do Ghosts need another strong ability? Is this because of the fact that Ghosts cost 50 gas less than HTs and Infestors? Or because you don't need to research anything like Storm or Pathogen Glands to make decent use of Ghosts? (Ok you could argue about Cloak, but then you'd also have to take Burrow into account, and maybe Warp Prism for HTs.)
Ghosts are definetely less advanced along the tech tree compared to Infestors and HTs, so they really shouldn't keep up with HTs and Infestors when comparing them on a unit against unit basis.
By that logic BCs and Carriers definitely need a buff seeing how Broodlords are by far the most useful among the three.
Rofl, worst example ever. Carriers have been used in only one GSL match from memory, and that was just because the player wanted to show just how bad carriers are (I can't remember exactly who it was atm). BCs are only every used in very late game TvT, which has no impact on 'balance'. TvZ and TvP they're just plain bad. So yes, they do need buffs. From the looks of it, Blizzard has basically given up trying to balance Carriers and they'll just be removed in HOTS.
i like how qxc analyzed it logically, i enjoy reading posts like this and i think that qxc's change would be a better change then what blizzard offered
but in all seriousness, I think it is too early to definitively say that the nerf is "too much" Yeah, ghosts will have fewer options i.e. sniping marines in a ghost rush TvT, but frankly they are already hands down the most versatile unit in the game, I think removing a few of their applications is probably not going to make them a "useless unit" like many terrans are afraid of. Let's give the changes a GSL season or two worth of testing and revisit things then, shall we? I think that's really the only way we're going to be able to come to a solid conclusion regarding the ghost change.
When you have people playing this game for money so that they can make a living, playing with their livelihood for over two or three months so that you can definitively say you did the right thing, you're going too far. I think that's what a lot of people are missing. qxc does this for a living, and he's one of the players who is using Ghosts the most. Sure, for the average player they will almost never be in the situation where they are sniping Marines or Banelings, saving their precious Ghost energy for EMPs and Sniper Rounds targeted at Tier 3 units, but he is utilizing it a lot more than anybody else.
People complained about Ghosts being too good against Tier 3 Zerg; qxc came up with a solution that doesn't completely ruin the way he's been using the unit, even if it still only did 45 damage with the subtraction to massive units, it would still be better than what they have now. Imagine you have a desk job and one day somebody comes in and says you have to type everything with an old school typewriter. Sure, it still "works," but they're seriously messing up your work environment while you could easily come up with a better solution.
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
Last I checked nobody gets the BF upgrade anymore. It's one thing to kill an upgrade it's another to kill a unit.
Oh wow, check again. That way you'd make a more educated comment.
Blue Flame doesn't do anything really until you get Mech Weapons upgrades. What used to be a standard upgrade now is really only used when a player is going mech.
EPT
