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On February 11 2012 10:21 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + I've been seeing a buttload of 3 gate robo openings. This is particularly confusing to me as I know that this opening can lead directly to an expansion, but can also be an all-in. 9/10 times I see this, it ends up being an all-in with like two-three immortals. Then the gasless expand ends up being kind of null. Noooo it cant. If he doesnt go 15 nex, 1 gate expand, or maybe at the latest 2gate robo and expand while his first robo unit (observer) is building, then he is completely all in and will get rolled over by your economy unless he does significant damage to you. Gasless expand is the best way to hold such an all in - you have to commit to an opening relatively blind, and if he handles the game correctly he can come out ahead vs 2rax or any one base opening (aside from 3-1-1 which is complicated), but gasless expand vs immortal bust at the highest level of play will favor the terran. It is not possible to break a terran who plays perfectly with gasless expand using an immortal bust, otherwise the opening would simply not be used. You are doing something wrong.
That's interesting. How would a solid T hold an Immortal bust? I've been dropping 3-4 rax and one gas as soon as I drop my nat CC, and adding 2-4 bunkers as I have time before he comes in.
I understand that if I hold it, I immediately win, but I just have yet to hold one with a gasless expand.
On February 11 2012 10:23 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:05 Optometrist wrote:
dude you have to chill out man, obviously its not nearly as bad as you think it it, just look at the pro statistics, now obviously you're not the same as lets say PuMa or MMA, but clearly there are things you can do that can improve your performance in the matchup. If you see they havent expanded and you're expansion is done already, you know they probably going to try to put on some hurt, so you prepare with bunkers (they're still pretty much free if they dont get killed). Plus clearly you're raging (not to be a bad thing) so you're thoughts are all bugged up, just take a break, and then think about things after you've calmed down. Also you should be able to start dropping WAY before HT tech is in play, if you see they are getting that fast of high templars, just go fucking kill him.
YES YES YES!! This is exactly the mindset needed for improvement, if you get stuck on calling things OP/eZ it creates a mental block to your improvement--making yourself a helpless victim is most definitely the way you to go if you want to get stuck in an infinite loop of rage, disappointment, and frustration. There is nothing wrong with having opinions on balance or difficulty in the game, but if you let that get in the way of you improving, if you let that mentality plague you, this game won't be fun. Try to put emphasis on improving yourself, rather then analyzing if your opponent had an easier time then you, if he really "deserved" the win, or if the game in is imbalanced; you can always have fun in the process of self improvement, because in Starcraft the self improvement never stops.
Yeah. I know. I'm just raging. Losing three TvPs in a row after being on a bad losing streak in the matchup for weeks is enough to cause nasty thoughts to manifest.
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On February 11 2012 10:30 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:18 Cyclone999 wrote:
I'm not gonna insult anyone or nothing but I do think Terran would have to never win a game for like 4 months before they got their right to complain back. You know, that whole 2011 thing.
Terran QQ. We have to figure it out ourselves. Protoss QQ. Blizzard helps them. That's why every unit for Terran is utilized and Protoss doesn't need to use half of their units to win. AOE is so useful, and PvT is so easy, up to masters. Protoss QQ wasn't even justified, "lol infestors counter deathball, blizzard plz nerf infestors" -.- Sure, the numbers might favor Terran, but being MVP is much harder than being MC.
Thanks for the laugh.
You're welcome. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SdGrv.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/J6qFK.png) If terran had not been dominating so hard throughout the end of last year (GomTvTvTvT) your tears might have got sympathy from someone.
LIKE I SAID, being MVP is so much harder than being MC. You can't expect us to drop everywhere, have perfect micro, dodge storms, hit perfect EMPs. MC just needs to hit some force fields, throw some storms before getting EMP, and a-move his colossus/zealot/archons (micro-wise, not macro-wise) when Terran kites WHILE macroing WHILE microing.
@PH, above me
You are my hero for making this post.
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I'm a master random player and I feel like TvP is much easier to win than PvT. Maybe you are just bad at the matchup?
I play super aggressive early to mid game, 90% of games the protoss isn't even able to get HT's before the game ends. Oh, and I've never made a ghost in my life. MMM is fucking amazing with decent control.
My2c.
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On February 11 2012 10:36 liberal wrote:
I'm a master random player and I feel like TvP is much easier to win than PvT. Maybe you are just bad at the matchup?
I play super aggressive early to mid game, 90% of games the protoss isn't even able to get HT's before the game ends. Oh, and I've never made a ghost in my life. MMM is fucking amazing with decent control.
My2c.
Coaching please.
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Been playing around with 15CC, 15 Rax, 17 gas in TvP recently. A bunker with some marines holds off any early pressure and you can move the CC down into your nat safely after you get 2 tanks with siege. Need to play with it a lot more, but it seems like strong opener so far.
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On February 11 2012 10:33 Cyclone999 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:30 Cyro wrote:On February 11 2012 10:18 Cyclone999 wrote:
I'm not gonna insult anyone or nothing but I do think Terran would have to never win a game for like 4 months before they got their right to complain back. You know, that whole 2011 thing.
Terran QQ. We have to figure it out ourselves. Protoss QQ. Blizzard helps them. That's why every unit for Terran is utilized and Protoss doesn't need to use half of their units to win. AOE is so useful, and PvT is so easy, up to masters. Protoss QQ wasn't even justified, "lol infestors counter deathball, blizzard plz nerf infestors" -.- Sure, the numbers might favor Terran, but being MVP is much harder than being MC.
Thanks for the laugh.
You're welcome. If terran had not been dominating so hard throughout the end of last year (GomTvTvTvT) your tears might have got sympathy from someone. LIKE I SAID, being MVP is so much harder than being MC. You can't expect us to drop everywhere, have perfect micro, dodge storms, hit perfect EMPs. MC just needs to hit some force fields, throw some storms before getting EMP, and a-move his colossus/zealot/archons when Terran kites WHILE macroing WHILE microing. @PH, above me You are my hero for making this post.
If it was that easy why don't you got be a Code S Protoss, and win two GSLs?
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+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KANukZsWD9Q
1:02
More manner, more skill!
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If it was that easy why don't you got be a Code S Protoss, and win two GSLs?
I'm sorry if I worded it wrong, perhaps I was too angry, but that's not all you had to do. My bad, edited.
Micro-wise however, add in some feedbacks and I think I hit the spot.
Let's not forget Protoss is the most forgiving in out of position, and engaging Protoss in a concave makes no difference because storm will just make your army back into a ball again when you dodge it.
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On February 11 2012 10:28 Cyclone999 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:24 SeizeTheDay wrote:
LOL SO FUNNY that people are bitching about pvt like anything changed.. your rauders / ghosts still rape us FIRST it was ZvP now its PvT... lol soon it will be ZvZ or something RELAX its a game and maybe YOU are the problem not the match up... Look, it's a Protoss player! goo goo gah gah? I heard Protoss players were babies, hence the QQ, so I figure I'd talk to you that way. Nothing's wrong with the matchup! You know, just that Protoss players only have half the APM, and their late-game is impossible to stop, their warp-in denies drops, their force fields stops early-game things... Like stated above, being MVP is harder than being MC.
uMMM seems like your the one QQ over the match up.. I dont care lol... i never once said anything when Terrans where beating the shit out of protoss.. or the fact HOW MANY TERRANS WON EVENTS. or how many terrans in GSL... whos the hope of protoss right now? MC? hasn't won much not saying he is bad... but he isnt up there anymore it seems.... Lets see whos some top terran off hand i can name alot.. name top protoss that have won as much as a terran... YOU CANT. lol take a chill pill your not at the top level ... nor am i... I am Masters you .. I dont know. My point is AT THE TOP if a terran cried like this it would make sense.. you crying about this means NOTHING because your game play is flawed... enough said.
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Canada113 Posts
As a protoss player(diamond) i find that PvT is my strongest match up. When i smurf a league lower as terran(plat), i can keep up quite well in TvP. An early marine push is usually good against anything that isnt a 1 base play.
Against 1 base plays, throw down upwards of 4-5 bunkers. Don't be afraid to lose scvs. you have mules and 2 orbitals to make them from, while protoss only has 1 base and is pretty much all in.
Against a 2 base 7 or 8 gate all in, you will have a much harder time holding, but hopefully you'll jump up to 5-6 rax with reactors and tech labs before their push comes. again pull scvs and you should be fine with 4-5 bunkers.
tl;dr: protoss is hard to survive to late game if they dont win early or early-mid game. The late game and early game are where protoss are really strong.
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On February 11 2012 10:33 Cyclone999 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:30 Cyro wrote:On February 11 2012 10:18 Cyclone999 wrote:
I'm not gonna insult anyone or nothing but I do think Terran would have to never win a game for like 4 months before they got their right to complain back. You know, that whole 2011 thing.
Terran QQ. We have to figure it out ourselves. Protoss QQ. Blizzard helps them. That's why every unit for Terran is utilized and Protoss doesn't need to use half of their units to win. AOE is so useful, and PvT is so easy, up to masters. Protoss QQ wasn't even justified, "lol infestors counter deathball, blizzard plz nerf infestors" -.- Sure, the numbers might favor Terran, but being MVP is much harder than being MC.
Thanks for the laugh.
You're welcome. If terran had not been dominating so hard throughout the end of last year (GomTvTvTvT) your tears might have got sympathy from someone. LIKE I SAID, being MVP is so much harder than being MC. You can't expect us to drop everywhere, have perfect micro, dodge storms, hit perfect EMPs. MC just needs to hit some force fields, throw some storms before getting EMP, and a-move his colossus/zealot/archons (micro-wise, not macro-wise) when Terran kites WHILE macroing WHILE microing. @PH, above me You are my hero for making this post.
I dont see the problem. Terran has dodge storms, EMP, and Kite while Protoss has to Storm, Feedback, target down Medics/vikings with Stalkers, and FF. Seems pretty even to me.
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On February 11 2012 10:47 SeizeTheDay wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:28 Cyclone999 wrote:On February 11 2012 10:24 SeizeTheDay wrote:
LOL SO FUNNY that people are bitching about pvt like anything changed.. your rauders / ghosts still rape us FIRST it was ZvP now its PvT... lol soon it will be ZvZ or something RELAX its a game and maybe YOU are the problem not the match up... Look, it's a Protoss player! goo goo gah gah? I heard Protoss players were babies, hence the QQ, so I figure I'd talk to you that way. Nothing's wrong with the matchup! You know, just that Protoss players only have half the APM, and their late-game is impossible to stop, their warp-in denies drops, their force fields stops early-game things... Like stated above, being MVP is harder than being MC. uMMM seems like your the one QQ over the match up.. I dont care lol... i never once said anything when Terrans where beating the shit out of protoss.. or the fact HOW MANY TERRANS WON EVENTS. or how many terrans in GSL... whos the hope of protoss right now? MC? hasn't won much not saying he is bad... but he isnt up there anymore it seems.... Lets see whos some top terran off hand i can name alot.. name top protoss that have won as much as a terran... YOU CANT. lol take a chill pill your not at the top level ... nor am i... I am Masters you .. I dont know. My point is AT THE TOP if a terran cried like this it would make sense.. you crying about this means NOTHING because your game play is flawed... enough said.
I know my crying is flawed. I know my gameplay is stupid. I know my play is horrible. Heck, I can't even keep less than 1k minerals when I saturate my third!
But you know what? I can't even abuse Protoss early-game where I am strongest, and nor can I engage them late-game! And anything I do, gets hard-countered by Protoss because they are the most forgiving race in Starcraft 2. And further more, although debatable, their deathball is the strongest army that requires little to no micro -_-
So easy to play.
Storm, Feedback, target down Medics/vikings with Stalkers, and FF.
TclickFclick, a-move does that for you, you don't need force fields late game because you probably won't have sentries then.
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On February 11 2012 10:44 Cyclone999 wrote:Show nested quote +
If it was that easy why don't you got be a Code S Protoss, and win two GSLs?
I'm sorry if I worded it wrong, perhaps I was too angry, but that's not all you had to do. My bad, edited. Micro-wise however, add in some feedbacks and I think I hit the spot. Let's not forget Protoss is the most forgiving in out of position, and engaging Protoss in a concave makes no difference because storm will just make your army back into a ball again when you dodge it.
You state your opinions as if they are facts...
Honestly, I feel as Protoss if I get caught out of position, and then lose my army, I lose the game, especially versus Zerg.
And the second one is just completely false, if you have concave, your units will be less vulnerable to AOE; which is the main tool that Protoss has versus mass bio.
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On February 11 2012 10:50 Cyclone999 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:47 SeizeTheDay wrote:On February 11 2012 10:28 Cyclone999 wrote:On February 11 2012 10:24 SeizeTheDay wrote:
LOL SO FUNNY that people are bitching about pvt like anything changed.. your rauders / ghosts still rape us FIRST it was ZvP now its PvT... lol soon it will be ZvZ or something RELAX its a game and maybe YOU are the problem not the match up... Look, it's a Protoss player! goo goo gah gah? I heard Protoss players were babies, hence the QQ, so I figure I'd talk to you that way. Nothing's wrong with the matchup! You know, just that Protoss players only have half the APM, and their late-game is impossible to stop, their warp-in denies drops, their force fields stops early-game things... Like stated above, being MVP is harder than being MC. uMMM seems like your the one QQ over the match up.. I dont care lol... i never once said anything when Terrans where beating the shit out of protoss.. or the fact HOW MANY TERRANS WON EVENTS. or how many terrans in GSL... whos the hope of protoss right now? MC? hasn't won much not saying he is bad... but he isnt up there anymore it seems.... Lets see whos some top terran off hand i can name alot.. name top protoss that have won as much as a terran... YOU CANT. lol take a chill pill your not at the top level ... nor am i... I am Masters you .. I dont know. My point is AT THE TOP if a terran cried like this it would make sense.. you crying about this means NOTHING because your game play is flawed... enough said. I know my crying is flawed. I know my gameplay is stupid. I know my play is horrible. Heck, I can't even keep less than 1k minerals when I saturate my third! But you know what? I can't even abuse Protoss early-game where I am strongest, and nor can I engage them late-game! And anything I do, gets hard-countered by Protoss because they are the most forgiving race in Starcraft 2. And further more, although debatable, their deathball is the strongest army that requires little to no micro -_- So easy to play.
Then play Protoss? like i don't know what you want me to say.. this doesn't happen in Masters.. in fact terran is the beast still that Protoss has the most problems with. Zerg some times also, if we let them get that 3rd. You have to realize its not the match up its you. Right there you just said it was you, so why would you say protoss is easy to play if you are making the mistakes?
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On February 11 2012 10:51 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:44 Cyclone999 wrote:
If it was that easy why don't you got be a Code S Protoss, and win two GSLs?
I'm sorry if I worded it wrong, perhaps I was too angry, but that's not all you had to do. My bad, edited. Micro-wise however, add in some feedbacks and I think I hit the spot. Let's not forget Protoss is the most forgiving in out of position, and engaging Protoss in a concave makes no difference because storm will just make your army back into a ball again when you dodge it. You state your opinions as if they are facts... Honestly, I feel as Protoss if I get caught out of position, and then lose my army, I lose the game, especially versus Zerg. And the second one is just completely false, if you have concave, your units will be less vulnerable to AOE; which is the main tool that Protoss has versus mass bio.
Okay, I'm just going to calm down.
I don't want you guys to see me as a crying idiot, which is what I figure I am looking at.
If I engage at a concave, he storms, say, the entire line. I move my army back to "dodge" the storm, because dodging it would be better than sitting in the storm, correct?
The point is when I move my army back...I'm a ball again. And as we know, Terran ball = zealot butchered meat
Right there you just said it was you, so why would you say protoss is easy to play if you are making the mistakes?
Me and Protoss are suppose to be at the same level, according to MMR. Protoss can make way more mistakes than me (out of position for drops, 4-gating a 1rax FE) but in the end, they will still win because they will almost always have the superior army, late-game.
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On February 11 2012 10:50 Cyclone999 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:47 SeizeTheDay wrote:On February 11 2012 10:28 Cyclone999 wrote:On February 11 2012 10:24 SeizeTheDay wrote:
LOL SO FUNNY that people are bitching about pvt like anything changed.. your rauders / ghosts still rape us FIRST it was ZvP now its PvT... lol soon it will be ZvZ or something RELAX its a game and maybe YOU are the problem not the match up... Look, it's a Protoss player! goo goo gah gah? I heard Protoss players were babies, hence the QQ, so I figure I'd talk to you that way. Nothing's wrong with the matchup! You know, just that Protoss players only have half the APM, and their late-game is impossible to stop, their warp-in denies drops, their force fields stops early-game things... Like stated above, being MVP is harder than being MC. uMMM seems like your the one QQ over the match up.. I dont care lol... i never once said anything when Terrans where beating the shit out of protoss.. or the fact HOW MANY TERRANS WON EVENTS. or how many terrans in GSL... whos the hope of protoss right now? MC? hasn't won much not saying he is bad... but he isnt up there anymore it seems.... Lets see whos some top terran off hand i can name alot.. name top protoss that have won as much as a terran... YOU CANT. lol take a chill pill your not at the top level ... nor am i... I am Masters you .. I dont know. My point is AT THE TOP if a terran cried like this it would make sense.. you crying about this means NOTHING because your game play is flawed... enough said. I know my crying is flawed. I know my gameplay is stupid. I know my play is horrible. Heck, I can't even keep less than 1k minerals when I saturate my third! But you know what? I can't even abuse Protoss early-game where I am strongest, and nor can I engage them late-game! And anything I do, gets hard-countered by Protoss because they are the most forgiving race in Starcraft 2. And further more, although debatable, their deathball is the strongest army that requires little to no micro -_- So easy to play. TclickFclick, a-move does that for you, you don't need force fields late game because you probably won't have sentries then.
With an attitude like that, it will continue to happen.
Bitching and crying will gain you nothing.
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On February 11 2012 10:50 Cyclone999 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:47 SeizeTheDay wrote:On February 11 2012 10:28 Cyclone999 wrote:On February 11 2012 10:24 SeizeTheDay wrote:
LOL SO FUNNY that people are bitching about pvt like anything changed.. your rauders / ghosts still rape us FIRST it was ZvP now its PvT... lol soon it will be ZvZ or something RELAX its a game and maybe YOU are the problem not the match up... Look, it's a Protoss player! goo goo gah gah? I heard Protoss players were babies, hence the QQ, so I figure I'd talk to you that way. Nothing's wrong with the matchup! You know, just that Protoss players only have half the APM, and their late-game is impossible to stop, their warp-in denies drops, their force fields stops early-game things... Like stated above, being MVP is harder than being MC. uMMM seems like your the one QQ over the match up.. I dont care lol... i never once said anything when Terrans where beating the shit out of protoss.. or the fact HOW MANY TERRANS WON EVENTS. or how many terrans in GSL... whos the hope of protoss right now? MC? hasn't won much not saying he is bad... but he isnt up there anymore it seems.... Lets see whos some top terran off hand i can name alot.. name top protoss that have won as much as a terran... YOU CANT. lol take a chill pill your not at the top level ... nor am i... I am Masters you .. I dont know. My point is AT THE TOP if a terran cried like this it would make sense.. you crying about this means NOTHING because your game play is flawed... enough said. I know my crying is flawed. I know my gameplay is stupid. I know my play is horrible. Heck, I can't even keep less than 1k minerals when I saturate my third! But you know what? I can't even abuse Protoss early-game where I am strongest, and nor can I engage them late-game! And anything I do, gets hard-countered by Protoss because they are the most forgiving race in Starcraft 2. And further more, although debatable, their deathball is the strongest army that requires little to no micro -_-So easy to play. TclickFclick, a-move does that for you, you don't need force fields late game because you probably won't have sentries then.
quit crying and practice harder. qqing about how easy it is to play the other race never helped anyone get better. Jesus. Why do you think you're so entitled to a win?
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TclickFclick, a-move does that for you, you don't need force fields late game because you probably won't have sentries then.
Oh I didnt realize we were playing the ridiculous over-simplification game. I suppose its my turn. EMP? E click (also its undodgable). Kite? A click, right click. Dodge storm (again, a luxury we dont have in regards to EMP), just a right click.
No, I dont actually mean that because I actually play the game and know its not as easy as you can make it sound when writing out instructions in text. I just want you to see how silly you seem.
Edit: g2g 4 gate people on ladder
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On February 11 2012 09:35 Cyclone999 wrote:
I was just about to post this blog, honestly, I go to blog section, and you're here.
Thank you.
Protoss is gay as hell and they take absolutely no skill to play. In TvP, Terran wins only if Protoss sucks. If Protoss and Terran are equal in skill, Protoss will always win. I don't understand why Protoss can use force fields, delay the 10-15 minute timing you're suppose to hit, and then they get their third BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DENY IT and then late game, it's just gay.
As such, this post is related to the opening post and it does relate. Even though it is a balance whine (not really, it's the truth) it's just stupid.
Protoss in PvT is so unbelievably easy, there's a reason why it was my best matchup when I use to play Protoss back at diamond. It's because I didn't even need APM, all I needed to do was survive with force fields, and spam make colossus/archon/zealot and then a-move. You don't even need 3/3 to win as Protoss, as 0/0 Protoss is just about the same as 2/2 Terran. I quit Protoss because it was too easy to win, and too boring to play.
I have no idea why Protoss don't get bored of doing the exact same thing every matchup and winning all of them.
That's why TvP's win rate is in T's favour?
Come on, that BS about "I quit Protoss 'cause it was too easy." crap doesn't fly unless you hit #1 GM. 0/0 Protoss is the same as 2/2 Terran? You mean, 0/0 T3 compositions prevent you from spamming MMM and stimming to win? Yeah, pretty much so.
More likely, your PvZ sucked, so MMR made PvT really easy for you.
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Canada113 Posts
On February 11 2012 10:55 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 10:50 Cyclone999 wrote:On February 11 2012 10:47 SeizeTheDay wrote:On February 11 2012 10:28 Cyclone999 wrote:On February 11 2012 10:24 SeizeTheDay wrote:
LOL SO FUNNY that people are bitching about pvt like anything changed.. your rauders / ghosts still rape us FIRST it was ZvP now its PvT... lol soon it will be ZvZ or something RELAX its a game and maybe YOU are the problem not the match up... Look, it's a Protoss player! goo goo gah gah? I heard Protoss players were babies, hence the QQ, so I figure I'd talk to you that way. Nothing's wrong with the matchup! You know, just that Protoss players only have half the APM, and their late-game is impossible to stop, their warp-in denies drops, their force fields stops early-game things... Like stated above, being MVP is harder than being MC. uMMM seems like your the one QQ over the match up.. I dont care lol... i never once said anything when Terrans where beating the shit out of protoss.. or the fact HOW MANY TERRANS WON EVENTS. or how many terrans in GSL... whos the hope of protoss right now? MC? hasn't won much not saying he is bad... but he isnt up there anymore it seems.... Lets see whos some top terran off hand i can name alot.. name top protoss that have won as much as a terran... YOU CANT. lol take a chill pill your not at the top level ... nor am i... I am Masters you .. I dont know. My point is AT THE TOP if a terran cried like this it would make sense.. you crying about this means NOTHING because your game play is flawed... enough said. I know my crying is flawed. I know my gameplay is stupid. I know my play is horrible. Heck, I can't even keep less than 1k minerals when I saturate my third! But you know what? I can't even abuse Protoss early-game where I am strongest, and nor can I engage them late-game! And anything I do, gets hard-countered by Protoss because they are the most forgiving race in Starcraft 2. And further more, although debatable, their deathball is the strongest army that requires little to no micro -_-So easy to play. Storm, Feedback, target down Medics/vikings with Stalkers, and FF. TclickFclick, a-move does that for you, you don't need force fields late game because you probably won't have sentries then. quit crying and practice harder. qqing about how easy it is to play the other race never helped anyone get better. Jesus. Why do you think you're so entitled to a win?
KawaiiRice has laid down the law. 
He's right about just practicing more 
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EPT
