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On January 21 2012 07:18 acie wrote:
in general, towering doesn't work vs UD
and fiends dont really hard counter wyvern, they just cast web to hold them in place. You have to research web at t2 and until that time UD has nothing that can hit air at all. Maybe if he really noob he won't even figure out to get web.
The old orc vs ud metagame used to be to expand early at t2 and then mass wyverns and there was pretty much no counter to it especially if u got lev 3 stomp
We are talking about people who do not play wc3 at all. So yes fiends will hard counter wyvs. Additionally web is generally going to come out at the same time you have 3-4 wyvs, so UD not having aa till tier 2 means NOTHING. The old meta game was strong until UD just decided to mass fiends and ghouls. Additionally, UD timing pushes destroyed the wyv tower crutch meta game.
As for towers not working, it doesn't work vs experienced players who are very patient and careful with their fiend and wagon micro. Against new players tower cheese is extremely effective vs any race except human.
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On January 21 2012 07:24 Phyrigian wrote:
also, random question here, as ive been doing this for a while, lol. my t key is broken, and ive been using copy paste to type t. are there any hotkeys that are important for orc vs ud that start with t? i'll try that wyvern cheese.
You should be fine as far as I can remember.
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Don't let the enemy UD hero creep (will prob. be a DK if your friend is playing more standard). Just don't let it happen; they get insanely difficult if they level up too hard, esp. the standard DK/Lich combo. Will nuke your BM to death if you're not careful, lol, and then his army will kill you.
So tail his hero really hard, creep-jack him, keep his health low. Get Boots of Speed ASAP from the shop; you should be able to solo the main creep there btw (WW in, focus it down, grab item, WW out). Salve up, creep some of the smaller camps + keep up the harass. Standard is to get a few grunts out (I recommend against getting more than four), then tech to T2 and throw down Beast, Lodge, get a SH, and go from there.
If he's really inexperienced and he doesn't have a good base set-up (sim-city + nerub towers), you can just run in and kill his workers while he scrambles about trying to figure out how to prevent it.
Replays you should watch ... well, if you're looking for high-level replays, most high-level OvUD replays will be good, and build orders are simple enough ... And really, tbh, at such a low level, having a solid build order doesn't really matter; if you can outmicro him and outmicro him hard, you can probs get almost any unit composition and win so long as it's not things that don't shoot up vs. air. But if you want a morale boost, just find any Grubby and Lyn v UD games, hhahaha. They had the best BM control.
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Non Factors:
Build Tauren Totem - T
Research Troll regeneration - T
Train Tauren - T
Possible factors:
Witch Doctor Stasis Trap - T
Far Seer Feral Spirit - T (this one you might actually need if you go far seer opening over bm
Tauren Chieftain War Stomp - T
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Don't do FS opening, btw. I guess it's possibly good if you're new, but the issue is that new people with sub-par control also will just end up feeding exp. to the enemy hero by letting their wolves die, and keeping the UD hero level low is pretty important. Otherwise, it will just be coil+click, nova+click, gg.
Almost as bad as hex+windwalk+click, but not quite. 
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On January 21 2012 07:24 Phyrigian wrote:
also, random question here, as ive been doing this for a while, lol. my t key is broken, and ive been using copy paste to type t. are there any hotkeys that are important for orc vs ud that start with t? i'll try that wyvern cheese.
You can also very easily edit hotkeys by going into your warcraft 3 and theres a custom keys text file. Edit that and then hit enable custom keys in your options.
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On January 21 2012 07:22 Chimpalimp wrote:
We are talking about people who do not play wc3 at all. So yes fiends will hard counter wyvs. Additionally web is generally going to come out at the same time you have 3-4 wyvs, so UD not having aa till tier 2 means NOTHING. The old meta game was strong until UD just decided to mass fiends and ghouls. Additionally, UD timing pushes destroyed the wyv tower crutch meta game.
As for towers not working, it doesn't work vs experienced players who are very patient and careful with their fiend and wagon micro. Against new players tower cheese is extremely effective vs any race except human.
We are talking about people who don't play wc3 at all , yet you assume he has the timing sense to get web at the perfect timing ?? He might not even figure out to tech at all, and if you tech fast as orc and the UD stays at t1 then yeah it is a big deal.
Then you are talking about how someone who has never played wc3 would also know the current metagame?
I still wouldn't recommend towering UD at any skill, fiends are too good vs towers, blight has natural regen, zigs can easily turn into towers
As for harassing, generally you don't really need to harass bad players as they tend to sit in their base and do nothing which means that harassing is pointless and you should just creep. You should probably just practice vs the computer and figure out how to creep to level 3 as efficiently as possible.
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Remember to always use all your hero spells when you get in a major battle. They really decide the outcome of the battle a lot of times. Forgetting to use them is like not macroing in SC.
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Human tri hero kicks ass.
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On January 21 2012 07:58 acie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 07:22 Chimpalimp wrote:
We are talking about people who do not play wc3 at all. So yes fiends will hard counter wyvs. Additionally web is generally going to come out at the same time you have 3-4 wyvs, so UD not having aa till tier 2 means NOTHING. The old meta game was strong until UD just decided to mass fiends and ghouls. Additionally, UD timing pushes destroyed the wyv tower crutch meta game.
As for towers not working, it doesn't work vs experienced players who are very patient and careful with their fiend and wagon micro. Against new players tower cheese is extremely effective vs any race except human. We are talking about people who don't play wc3 at all , yet you assume he has the timing sense to get web at the perfect timing ?? He might not even figure out to tech at all, and if you tech fast as orc and the UD stays at t1 then yeah it is a big deal. Then you are talking about how someone who has never played wc3 would also know the current metagame? I still wouldn't recommend towering UD at any skill, fiends are too good vs towers, blight has natural regen, zigs can easily turn into towers As for harassing, generally you don't really need to harass bad players as they tend to sit in their base and do nothing which means that harassing is pointless and you should just creep. You should probably just practice vs the computer and figure out how to creep to level 3 as efficiently as possible.
The web timing is pretty generic, if you are new to wc3 and are preparing for a grudge match it is a pretty basic thing to learn rather quickly. You get web because otherwise UD has no anti air. Additionally, the UD is likely to get towers early game which will slow down wyv harassment until he gets web when he sees wyvs. As for staying on T1 as undead, again if the player even slightly cares about the grudge match, they will find a general strategy to follow, all UD strats involve teching (most of which are rather fast teching).
The metagame was a comment for you. You mentioned how in the old metagame wyv tower crutch was good, and I stated why it is not. You decided to bring meta game shifts into the conversation, not me. I merely stated why going mass wyvs can be bad in low level games.
Zigs turning into towers is generally something you worry about if you are doing a tower cheese against an experienced player. Zigs 9/10 will be in awful positions and will get the UD killed.
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On January 21 2012 07:35 Stickmatrix wrote:
Non Factors:
Build Tauren Totem - T
Research Troll regeneration - T
Train Tauren - T
Possible factors:
Witch Doctor Stasis Trap - T
Far Seer Feral Spirit - T (this one you might actually need if you go far seer opening over bm
Tauren Chieftain War Stomp - T
All valid points, but for someone new that is planning to use the easiest strat possible it shouldn't really hurt him at all. Going farseer against UD is difficult even for experienced players. As for TC, he takes special creep patterns, items, and positioning to be used, which again shouldn't be done by a new player. Going BM SH is not only one of the most pervasive hero compositions in all orc match-ups, but is the easiest to use.
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old metagame strats will work vs people who dont know them, mass wyv was THE strat to do some years back so there's no reason why it wouldn't still be strong vs people who dont know how to play which is 100x better advice then telling someone to offensive tower UD.
Especially if UD lets orc player get bloodlust and wyvern then they're pretty much screwed
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has ur friend played wc3? regularly? then we can just skip this discussion 
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On January 21 2012 08:46 acie wrote:
old metagame strats will work vs people who dont know them, mass wyv was THE strat to do some years back so there's no reason why it wouldn't still be strong vs people who dont know how to play which is 100x better advice then telling someone to offensive tower UD.
Especially if UD lets orc player get bloodlust and wyvern then they're pretty much screwed
Ehhh, if UD gets destroyers, shams are pretty much worthless. (So are wolves, which is why FS is also a bit meh in the match-up.) There's a reason why you hardly ever see shams in 1v1. BL costs shit ton of resources and can be dispelled so easily in all match-ups. Shams are worthless until T3 anyways, and time, resources, and wood(!!!) are all much better spent on walkers.
Obviously, if his friend doesn't know anything about the standard UD play, then it's all kind of besides the point. Maybe he'll just ghoul rush OP and suicide everything onto his burrows, lol.
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bloodlust wyv still pretty much rape destroyers, destroyer dispell has a high cooldown, low area of affect and is really hard to hit flying units with. I'm just saying that if your friend is bad enough to let you get anything u want, then bloodlusted wyverns are pretty much the ultimate late game that is easiest to use(bloodlust autocast)
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1. Play aggressively. Don't let him expand and don't let him get too many creeps. When the DK/Lich get leveled up they are really nasty and if you let the UD get to frost wyrms it will be really hard to win. Constantly creepjack his army/harass his base if he didn't build a nerubian tower.
2. When you get to midgame with a grunt/raider/kodo/spirit walker army you will crush the UD army out in the field. If he turtles and builds lots of towers, go clear the creeps, if not go kill him.
3. Make sure you buy boots, circlets and claws of attack for your blademaster.
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On January 21 2012 09:50 Phyrigian wrote:
does anybody have any replays of that double beaistary wyvern build?
No but one of the ways that was common is to go warmill with Blademaster obv and build towers in your base and tech straight to tier 2. Get a voodoo lounge also as your BM comes out and by some proper items. Harass the UD as much as you can while creeping small camps and healing with salves. This works especially well on maps like Lost Temple where you have the Heal Fountain and Wyvern mobility is very powerful. You want to have your Beastiaries toward the back of your base so they don't get canceled. Also don't bring your wyverns out before you get a large number of them because web will destroy them. Your goal should be to expand get to Tier 3 with Orb on BM with tons of Venom Wyverns and Creep up your TC with Stomp while harassing with BM and expand of course. This is the general idea and once you have this your army will be unstoppable.
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EPT
