EPT
WC3 Grudge Match - Strategy
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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groms
Canada1017 Posts
they use blight scrolls and build zigs in front of orc base also for maps echo isles turtle rock twisted meadows and omfg im forgetting my maps @@ | ||
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Lyter
United Kingdom2145 Posts
A basic orc composition is grunts, raiders and spirit walkers, though walkers are rarer in OvUD because of destroyers. Use raiders to ensnare stuff while your BM goes to town on them. At tier 2, creep with your army and Shadow Hunter while harassing with BM. | ||
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bGr.MetHiX
Bulgaria511 Posts
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groms
Canada1017 Posts
Oh and secret valley | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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JoelE
United States112 Posts
So for maps, play on Twisted Meadows. For orc, get a blade master, a few grunts, and upgrade your town hall once. Then get raiders and grunts and out micro him. Research ensnare on your raiders, which lets you trap air and ground units. If he gets air, make sure to trap them. Micro! EDIT: Since your new to wc3, i wouldn't worry about getting and learning caster units. If you can use basic bw rts mechanics well you should do fine with simple blademaster+raider+grunt. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
A good build is needed to be followed not just some general composition advice, since WC3 is such a different game .. unfortunately I don't remember any specific builds other than what my friend was telling me over my shoulder lol, and searching online for such builds/guides was generally a fruitless endeavor in my experience | ||
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Dubsys
Australia122 Posts
Here's a handy vid that shows grubbys opening to get a BM + 4 Grunts out. I haven't played WC3 in so long that i can barely remember a proper BO so i really hope this helps | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
On January 21 2012 06:24 Phyrigian wrote: jesus guys, thanks for all the advice, i appreciate is all so very much. what are some good orc maps that dont escape the norm of play and are still relatively balanced but would just give me a slight edge with a fountain or something? and thanks for your advice. I know you don't expand very early in war3 (in fact, much the opposite!) but is there any general guide as to whens a good idea. Also, since hes from sc2 but hasnt played in ages (which is why im not afraid to post this blog here :p) he might try early expand. this is probably suicide in war3, but if he was to how should i respond to fuck him over and kill him. Secret Valley comes to my mind. You can creep the healfountains very fast, where you have a good chance to get a useful item for the blademaster. However, if you have never really played wc3; I would recommend staying away from blademaster. Also, build an orc shop. the healing salves you can buy there are incredibly good if you some micro to save yout units. Remember, in wc3 saving units is at least as important as killing stuff. edit: blademaster takes a lot of his usefulness from being able to solocreep single creeps on special spots, and from being able to scout/harass your opponent, which requires some knowledge about what and when to attack. Far Seer (1st skill wolves) would be my hero. Just dont let your wolves die and use lighning only when you have the perspective of killing something (hint: with the newer patches, it is possible to always showing health bars is available in the menu). But then again, Far seer is my most loved hero, and depending on your level, any hero might work, blademaster is just a little less straightforward imho. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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kuresuti
1393 Posts
On January 21 2012 06:34 Phyrigian wrote: hmm, if i dont use BM what should i do? hes part of the norm, isn't he? :x Farseer used to be the standard, until people realized how much exp you are feeding the enemy with the wolves you summon. He is still viable though, just micro them wolves! EDIT: Are you looking to win, or to play a standard game? | ||
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Dubsys
Australia122 Posts
If i remember correctly far seer openings vs undead were the norm for a while because you could delay rax tech and harass with your FS but it'd be safer to get an early rax and get a few grunts out just in case he tries anything fancy or cheesy | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Lyter
United Kingdom2145 Posts
For workers, 5 should be on gold, and 7 is a pretty good number for wood | ||
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kuresuti
1393 Posts
On January 21 2012 06:42 Phyrigian wrote: fun :p, and winning. trying a standard game would also be cool. Solo BM harass and straight tech to T2 without building any units, into double beastiary Wyverns which you hide and then later make a big fight happen when you have 7-8 Wyverns. This is cheesy, but it is incredibly strong unless your opponent is good or manages to counter it blindly. It's like DTs in BW. The Orc shop allows you to harass with the BM constantly, picking of low health units and what not. Just buy healing salves and clarity potions. | ||
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
open with 1 racks, 1 altar, 2 burrows (not necessarily in that order. BM, 2 grunts, voodoo lounge, and start your tech add on another burrow add 2 more grunts (4 in total) TIER 2: immediately start by building a beastiary, spirit lodge, and shadow hunter as your second hero. get a second burrow. Get a raider and ensnare research, get a spirit walker and research spirit walker adapt training. Get berserker strength upgrade for grunt health. Get a warmill to be able to build 1 kodo beast. Your economic situation: you should have exactly 5 peons on gold at almost all times. you should have exactly 7 peons on wood (before you tech you should make sure you have 7). Get to 50 food with the following unit composition approximately: 1 BM (abilities: wind walk, crit, wind walk, crit, crit buy BM boots of speed (red boots from public shop)) 1 SH (abilities: hex, healing wave, healing wave, hex, healing wave) 4 grunts (you should not build any more grunts after your initial 4) 2 raiders 1 kodo beast 2 spirit walkers Replace any lost units with raiders and walkers. Should your opponent get air units (gargoyles (lol), destroyers (very likely), or frost wyrms (maybe)) make bat riders from your beastiary. You should not break 50 food for about 75% of the game. If you are going to break 50 food, bank like 1.5k gold, and go straight to 70 or 80. NEVER go past 80 food (economic suicide). Don't really try to expand much at all. Good luck. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
On January 21 2012 06:58 Phyrigian wrote: sounds like perfect standard advice, but i may try that cheese. may try this at a later date though. are gargoyles like the scouts of wc3? lol. Na, gargs are like going bio vs toss, pretty much retarded vs orc (bats hard counter them as well as reavers hard counter bio), but it could happen. As for cheese: same as standard setup except don't expand, get a warmill. Make Firelord (from tavern) or Farseer or BM, make grunts and watch towers near his base. takes some micro to get it initially pulled off, but does wonders against crappy players. | ||
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kuresuti
1393 Posts
On January 21 2012 06:56 Phyrigian wrote: trying a game against ai, lol, getting raped sounds right up my alley for a strat for this, lol. also, noob question. you go windwalk first and max that and your passive, right? also, items arent incredibly important in wc3, right? Windwalk and then Crit. Items are EXTREMELY important, especially for a cheese like this. Your whole strategy relies on the Blade Master being up in the enemys ass while he creeps, you can't do that without salves and potions. Also pick up Boots of Speed from the neutral merchant. You should just windwalk and hit targets so they die and immediately back away, rinse and repeat. You can defend your base without units because as a Orc player you have burrows, which are pretty damn strong. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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kuresuti
1393 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:02 Phyrigian wrote: you know your stuff, whats better, his wyvern cheese or that? lol The Firelord tower rush is a stronger strategy, but much harder to pull off. EDIT: I don't remember the times exactly, but get boots as soon as they are available. Shouldn't be long after your hero spawns. Circlets which give +2 to all stats are pretty good, but not necessary. If the enemy is aggressive, it might be worth it to pick up a circlet or two. Also remember to be there when the enemy finishes a camp, you might get lucky and steal his item. | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:02 Phyrigian wrote: you know your stuff, whats better, his wyvern cheese or that? lol Wyvern cheese is EXTREMELY all in but easier to control. Until you are comfortable with wyvs, crypt fiends will hard counter you pretty easily. Tower cheese is harder to pull off the initial 3 towers, but once those 3 towers and a proxy shop are done, you almost instantly win by just building towers closer and closer. You have to micro pretty decently to get the initial towers up, unless you hide them carefully in fog of war. WC3 towers are VERY good. Its your call. If you do a bo3, do both. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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kuresuti
1393 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:05 Phyrigian wrote: oh, i'll definitely do your wyvern one then. so harrass asap? Yeah, as soon as the BM is out, run straight for the enemy but do not engage. Wait until he creeps or something, then hit windwalk and finish the creeps and/or his units off one by one. EDIT: Try to time your build so your shop goes up when the BM comes out, so you can buy salves and potions at once. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:03 Phyrigian wrote: oh, by items i didnt mean salves, i meant more like +agi stuff... but i think thats only dota and stuff (lol, thats where my question roots from if that makes sense :p). When do i go for boots again? You get the boots from the neutral merchant, they spawn right at/shortly after the first night begins. There are +agi items in regular WC3 matches as well but you don't spend money on them, just pick up whatever you can steal from the creeps your opponent is killing (always hit something, then get the item as picking it up uncloaks you and your first hit out of the cloak deals bonus damage that you don't want to waste). | ||
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:08 Phyrigian wrote: would an analogy for wyv vs crypts be like vultures vs goons? lol. It would be muta vs a pack of marines. If your good at micro, you can beat the marines, if you don't play it smart, you will get slaughtered running in. But if he doesn't get web, its like shooting fish in a barrel. | ||
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kuresuti
1393 Posts
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:13 kuresuti wrote: Actually just go here and get some Orc replays. I haven't followed WC3 for a few years, but I assume the games still play out the same way, just look at how they use their blademasters. Some of those are out of date and can't be played in the current version of WC3. Just go to www.wcreplays.com and find orc vs ud games for standard games, for cheese, just do what was told earlier. | ||
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acie
United States247 Posts
and fiends dont really hard counter wyvern, they just cast web to hold them in place. You have to research web at t2 and until that time UD has nothing that can hit air at all. Maybe if he really noob he won't even figure out to get web. The old orc vs ud metagame used to be to expand early at t2 and then mass wyverns and there was pretty much no counter to it especially if u got lev 3 stomp | ||
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:18 acie wrote: in general, towering doesn't work vs UD and fiends dont really hard counter wyvern, they just cast web to hold them in place. You have to research web at t2 and until that time UD has nothing that can hit air at all. Maybe if he really noob he won't even figure out to get web. The old orc vs ud metagame used to be to expand early at t2 and then mass wyverns and there was pretty much no counter to it especially if u got lev 3 stomp We are talking about people who do not play wc3 at all. So yes fiends will hard counter wyvs. Additionally web is generally going to come out at the same time you have 3-4 wyvs, so UD not having aa till tier 2 means NOTHING. The old meta game was strong until UD just decided to mass fiends and ghouls. Additionally, UD timing pushes destroyed the wyv tower crutch meta game. As for towers not working, it doesn't work vs experienced players who are very patient and careful with their fiend and wagon micro. Against new players tower cheese is extremely effective vs any race except human. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:24 Phyrigian wrote: also, random question here, as ive been doing this for a while, lol. my t key is broken, and ive been using copy paste to type t. are there any hotkeys that are important for orc vs ud that start with t? i'll try that wyvern cheese. You should be fine as far as I can remember. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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babylon
8765 Posts
So tail his hero really hard, creep-jack him, keep his health low. Get Boots of Speed ASAP from the shop; you should be able to solo the main creep there btw (WW in, focus it down, grab item, WW out). Salve up, creep some of the smaller camps + keep up the harass. Standard is to get a few grunts out (I recommend against getting more than four), then tech to T2 and throw down Beast, Lodge, get a SH, and go from there. If he's really inexperienced and he doesn't have a good base set-up (sim-city + nerub towers), you can just run in and kill his workers while he scrambles about trying to figure out how to prevent it. Replays you should watch ... well, if you're looking for high-level replays, most high-level OvUD replays will be good, and build orders are simple enough ... And really, tbh, at such a low level, having a solid build order doesn't really matter; if you can outmicro him and outmicro him hard, you can probs get almost any unit composition and win so long as it's not things that don't shoot up vs. air. But if you want a morale boost, just find any Grubby and Lyn v UD games, hhahaha. They had the best BM control. | ||
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Dubsys
Australia122 Posts
Build Tauren Totem - T Research Troll regeneration - T Train Tauren - T Possible factors: Witch Doctor Stasis Trap - T Far Seer Feral Spirit - T (this one you might actually need if you go far seer opening over bm Tauren Chieftain War Stomp - T | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
Almost as bad as hex+windwalk+click, but not quite.  | ||
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Arthemesia
United States292 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:24 Phyrigian wrote: also, random question here, as ive been doing this for a while, lol. my t key is broken, and ive been using copy paste to type t. are there any hotkeys that are important for orc vs ud that start with t? i'll try that wyvern cheese. You can also very easily edit hotkeys by going into your warcraft 3 and theres a custom keys text file. Edit that and then hit enable custom keys in your options. | ||
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acie
United States247 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:22 Chimpalimp wrote: We are talking about people who do not play wc3 at all. So yes fiends will hard counter wyvs. Additionally web is generally going to come out at the same time you have 3-4 wyvs, so UD not having aa till tier 2 means NOTHING. The old meta game was strong until UD just decided to mass fiends and ghouls. Additionally, UD timing pushes destroyed the wyv tower crutch meta game. As for towers not working, it doesn't work vs experienced players who are very patient and careful with their fiend and wagon micro. Against new players tower cheese is extremely effective vs any race except human. We are talking about people who don't play wc3 at all , yet you assume he has the timing sense to get web at the perfect timing ?? He might not even figure out to tech at all, and if you tech fast as orc and the UD stays at t1 then yeah it is a big deal. Then you are talking about how someone who has never played wc3 would also know the current metagame? I still wouldn't recommend towering UD at any skill, fiends are too good vs towers, blight has natural regen, zigs can easily turn into towers As for harassing, generally you don't really need to harass bad players as they tend to sit in their base and do nothing which means that harassing is pointless and you should just creep. You should probably just practice vs the computer and figure out how to creep to level 3 as efficiently as possible. | ||
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Mothra
United States1448 Posts
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iSometric
2221 Posts
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:58 acie wrote: We are talking about people who don't play wc3 at all , yet you assume he has the timing sense to get web at the perfect timing ?? He might not even figure out to tech at all, and if you tech fast as orc and the UD stays at t1 then yeah it is a big deal. Then you are talking about how someone who has never played wc3 would also know the current metagame? I still wouldn't recommend towering UD at any skill, fiends are too good vs towers, blight has natural regen, zigs can easily turn into towers As for harassing, generally you don't really need to harass bad players as they tend to sit in their base and do nothing which means that harassing is pointless and you should just creep. You should probably just practice vs the computer and figure out how to creep to level 3 as efficiently as possible. The web timing is pretty generic, if you are new to wc3 and are preparing for a grudge match it is a pretty basic thing to learn rather quickly. You get web because otherwise UD has no anti air. Additionally, the UD is likely to get towers early game which will slow down wyv harassment until he gets web when he sees wyvs. As for staying on T1 as undead, again if the player even slightly cares about the grudge match, they will find a general strategy to follow, all UD strats involve teching (most of which are rather fast teching). The metagame was a comment for you. You mentioned how in the old metagame wyv tower crutch was good, and I stated why it is not. You decided to bring meta game shifts into the conversation, not me. I merely stated why going mass wyvs can be bad in low level games. Zigs turning into towers is generally something you worry about if you are doing a tower cheese against an experienced player. Zigs 9/10 will be in awful positions and will get the UD killed. | ||
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
On January 21 2012 07:35 Stickmatrix wrote: Non Factors: Build Tauren Totem - T Research Troll regeneration - T Train Tauren - T Possible factors: Witch Doctor Stasis Trap - T Far Seer Feral Spirit - T (this one you might actually need if you go far seer opening over bm Tauren Chieftain War Stomp - T All valid points, but for someone new that is planning to use the easiest strat possible it shouldn't really hurt him at all. Going farseer against UD is difficult even for experienced players. As for TC, he takes special creep patterns, items, and positioning to be used, which again shouldn't be done by a new player. Going BM SH is not only one of the most pervasive hero compositions in all orc match-ups, but is the easiest to use. | ||
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acie
United States247 Posts
Especially if UD lets orc player get bloodlust and wyvern then they're pretty much screwed | ||
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krisss
Luxembourg305 Posts
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babylon
8765 Posts
On January 21 2012 08:46 acie wrote: old metagame strats will work vs people who dont know them, mass wyv was THE strat to do some years back so there's no reason why it wouldn't still be strong vs people who dont know how to play which is 100x better advice then telling someone to offensive tower UD. Especially if UD lets orc player get bloodlust and wyvern then they're pretty much screwed Ehhh, if UD gets destroyers, shams are pretty much worthless. (So are wolves, which is why FS is also a bit meh in the match-up.) There's a reason why you hardly ever see shams in 1v1. BL costs shit ton of resources and can be dispelled so easily in all match-ups. Shams are worthless until T3 anyways, and time, resources, and wood(!!!) are all much better spent on walkers. Obviously, if his friend doesn't know anything about the standard UD play, then it's all kind of besides the point. Maybe he'll just ghoul rush OP and suicide everything onto his burrows, lol. | ||
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acie
United States247 Posts
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
2. When you get to midgame with a grunt/raider/kodo/spirit walker army you will crush the UD army out in the field. If he turtles and builds lots of towers, go clear the creeps, if not go kill him. 3. Make sure you buy boots, circlets and claws of attack for your blademaster. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Arthemesia
United States292 Posts
On January 21 2012 09:50 Phyrigian wrote: does anybody have any replays of that double beaistary wyvern build? No but one of the ways that was common is to go warmill with Blademaster obv and build towers in your base and tech straight to tier 2. Get a voodoo lounge also as your BM comes out and by some proper items. Harass the UD as much as you can while creeping small camps and healing with salves. This works especially well on maps like Lost Temple where you have the Heal Fountain and Wyvern mobility is very powerful. You want to have your Beastiaries toward the back of your base so they don't get canceled. Also don't bring your wyverns out before you get a large number of them because web will destroy them. Your goal should be to expand get to Tier 3 with Orb on BM with tons of Venom Wyverns and Creep up your TC with Stomp while harassing with BM and expand of course. This is the general idea and once you have this your army will be unstoppable. | ||
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kuresuti
1393 Posts
On January 21 2012 09:50 Phyrigian wrote: does anybody have any replays of that double beaistary wyvern build? Sorry I went to bed last night, anyway It's something like this. Altar, burrow, voodoo lounge, tech to tier 2, war mill, as soon as you hit T2 get two beastiarys. Get more burrows while teching to prepare for wyverns. What the guy above said is the way to play if you know what you're doing. In your position I would just wait for 7-8 wyverns and then just win the first big fight as soon as possible. If you win the fight you basically win the game. The only way he can stop you is if he has many Crypt Fiends or for some reason went mass Gargoyles. If he has a few crypt fiends you will beat him, if he has as many fiends as you have wyverns, you might still win the battle if you just focus fire them one by one or focus fire his hero and don't lose yours to make your BM super strong. The game should be over by now, if not, keep building wyverns or batriders, or transition into mass raiders, whatever floats your boat. You should be ahead so it's just about finishing them off. It's not necessary but getting a second hero at tier 2 is pretty good, if your comfortable with controlling two at once. Tauren Chieftain would be the better choice for this strategy. | ||
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