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Wanted to ladder a bit....and got matched with 5 Protoss in a row...4 losses.
I just hate this matchup. I'm losing to Gold ranked players. ('Im Platinum btw) I don't know what to do, it's so retarded that words cannot describe it. You cannot expand, every attack is potentially lethal, units are bland and dull (why don't we have reaver...or something the equivalent of Reaver instead of the retarded cliff walker) It is not fun to play.
It's not that other mirror matchups are great either. TvT is perhaps the best out of three but it's still mind draining 50min position wars. which leave me mentally fucked up after each match. ZvZ is all about who can flip the coin better. All mirror matchups suck ass. It is really stupid to me, when all the game is about 3 different races and how their differences interact with each other, to have same races play again each other. I would die for an option to block mirror matchups and just play versus a different race.
Yeah..fuck this game. Mirror matchups are not fun to play at all. I don't care if they are balanced or imbalanced, interesting or bland, but still at the end, it's not fun to play them. Period.
 
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i heard there are reavers in bw
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Being a coinflip matchup with both players doing some build and crossing their fingers for his opponent not doing the build that counters their build, ZvZ is still the best MM. It's not that you take half the map and wait until your opponent unsieges first and still you can expand.
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I often times wish ladder would allow you to accept or reject certain matchups (limited number of times per day)
This way you can narrow down and practice against your weakest matchup.
Nothing's worse than just losing a ZvT and then getting the next 8 matches be zvz.
It's like...there's no closure...
You can also do what I do and quit all your mirrors on certain days.
Yea....my ranking varies wildly from platinum to bronze because of this
:D
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All this post proves is that you have no understanding whatsoever of the mirror matchups. Stop being such a whiny bitch and learn to play them. Just get some pro replays and copy them.
User was warned for this post
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I remember seeing a thread in strategy about a build that would never die to four gate, perhaps try that out?
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I half agree with you. Obviously you can't stop having mirror matchups, but Blizzard should put something in battle net that stops you being matched up against the same race a certain amount of times.
I am a mid-high masters player, and it seems to be that that whole section of players are just protoss players. So far I have had a streak of 7 PvP's in a row. It's simply just not fun to play that many PvP's. In the last week of laddering at least 70% of my games have been PvP's, which has caused me to now switch to zerg. Yes mirror matchups are boring, but the real problem is that fact that there is no system in place stopping you from playing them over and over again.
Like I said, 7 PvP's in a row on ladder is enough to make anyone not want to play the game anymore.
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ZvZ isn't a coin flip. 14/14 is always safe and hatch first doesn't give any form of game ending advantage, so hatch first is not a coin flip win vs 14/14. 10 pool however is a coin flip win vs hatch first. Therefor, if you always go 14/14, you deny the coinflippage.
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On January 12 2012 19:00 Snaiil wrote:
All this post proves is that you have no understanding whatsoever of the mirror matchups. Stop being such a whiny bitch and learn to play them. Just get some pro replays and copy them.
He pretty much said that he doesn't understand the matchups. I don't see the need to be rude. I don't think I'll ever enjoy ZvZ, regardless of how good/bad I am at it, I just feel that it's rubbish to watch, rubbish to play, and volatile as hell.
I wish I could racepick the matchups on ladder, but it's never going to happen.
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I 100% agree, I cannot stand mirror matches, I play random and just leave every match that is a mirror match right at the begining.
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On January 12 2012 19:01 FinestHour wrote:
I remember seeing a thread in strategy about a build that would never die to four gate, perhaps try that out?
I can hold off a 4-gate, I just don't know what to do after.
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Holy shit Inca.
...and then oh shit Inca. -__-
Whoops, wrong thread. Somehow appropriate though lol.
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Having played all 3 MM I have to say TvT is the most intresting one. Although ZvZ with infestors can be a lot of fun.
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I'm not sure where all the "2hr long siege tanks inching forward 1by1" TvT ideas are coming from. You can go bio and try to outplay your opponent, marine-tank aggressively (very intense. My favorite games to do), or mech, which still requires that you harass with BFH. When a game DOES get drawn out, it's a race for the skies with vikings, ravens, and BC goodness.
But yeah, PvP is bs. =/ One of the many reasons I play terran.....
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Adelscotts 2 gate. All that is needed is good macro / multitasking and you expand quite early and always have the economic advantage with little risk.
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On January 12 2012 18:58 Djagulingu wrote:
Being a coinflip matchup with both players doing some build and crossing their fingers for his opponent not doing the build that counters their build, ZvZ is still the best MM. It's not that you take half the map and wait until your opponent unsieges first and still you can expand.
? PvP isn't so much a coinflip anymore, and TvT is by far the best match-up [in the game] in terms of balance, even most P/Z progamers would say this.
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I think of PvP like walking a tightrope. With your friend racing you on his own tightrope. Armed with shotguns.
One wrong move and you cop a shotgun shell to the torso and fall to your death.
The true art of PvP is knowing when your opponent has fucked up (eg got himself supply blocked) so you can finidh him off. Also you have to make sure that you yourself dotn race ahead (eg taking en expo or overteching) otherwise you will be in sight for the perfect buckshot (a full warp in into your base) and make sure that you return the favor if he tries the same.
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On January 12 2012 19:59 Talin wrote:
Holy shit Inca.
...and then oh shit Inca. -__-
Whoops, wrong thread. Somehow appropriate though lol.
This post intrigues me, where were you initally intending to post at?
Also, I hear broodwar mirror matchups are the most frustrating things in the world.
But really I hate mirror matchups in every game as well and they're boring as.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Bar roach infestor vs Roach infestor, I like ZvZ, TvT is awesome, I honestly can't understand why people don't like it. PvP... meh.
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I totally agree.
T is so overpowered in TvT, and P in PvP is just imba. Don't even get me started on ZvZ, Z can have so many units so fast, it's really hard to deal with.
Honestly though, once you improve your understanding of the game mirrors can become pretty fun.
TvT is my favorite matchup, with PvP a close second. There are so many different ways to play - keep your mind open to different playstyles, solidified matchups are often the ones that change the most when they do!
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Evening sir, Dont lose hope!
In season 4 i hit 18% win/loss ratio in pvp. I spent hours just focusing on that 1 matchup looking up various openings (adelscott FE, 3gate robo etc) to various transitions, for a while i flirted with carriers. Did alot of expirimentation, but what you can fall back on in pvp is the standard slightly boring colossus wars its fairly easy. Just have more colossus and better upgrades then your opponant. During this time you can research various openings/midgames/lategames. To try and figure out this matchup.
So far this season im (roughly) 75% vs protoss. It's a pain in the butt right now for you, but if you do your homework you will find out that it pays off quite a bit.
2 places to start.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-373-p1-pvp-3-gate-robo-variations-5720293
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Adel's_Late_Gas_PvP
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Get a practice partner and play together with to try and get a better understanding of the mirror matchup. It really helps because you aren't doing anything else than focusing on the one matchup.
ZvZ can be rageinducing, so becareful!
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Hi man! I was recently in somewhat of the same position as you, losing quite a lot of my PvPs. The most important thing that helped me improve in PvP was: Have a plan and stick to it. Be determined and focus on your objective. Doing middle-of-the-road stuff is often times a bad idea in Starcraft 2, but it is especially true in PvP!
The first and most basic decision you need to make is: Do I want to go for 1 base aggression or do I want to expand and defend. This decision should be made very early, probably as soon as you see what map you're playing on. In almost any case, it is a bad idea to divert from this decision, and if you do, you should do it very early. Obviously, if you see him go a stupid Nexus first build or something, you should divert from your plan and go kill him.
After you've made this decision, you should make up some kind of tech path in your mind. All tech paths are viable in both scenarios, but some might be better than others, depending on the map and what your opponent is doing. If you're defending, most of the time you'll want to get a robo, as Immortals are the best defensive units you have. Also you want to make sure you don't die to DTs so you'll need an observer.
Then there's the level of greedyness, in two concepts: In terms of how greedy you're being with your tech structures (1 gate robo twillight being extremely greedy vs 3 gate robo twillight being more safe), and how greedy you're being with your expand. The level of greedyness should be based upon what you scout and feel (yes sometimes you just have to take a guess!).
Some people might disagree with my PvP playstyle, saying it is better to have a more agile plan so that you can react to your opponent better. In most matchups I'd say that is true, but Protoss is a race that revolves around hard timings.. and being too much middle-of-the-road will make you miss those timings most likely. And of course you should still react to the things you scout and what your opponent is doing, but the reaction should mostly be the tech choice. Be determined and focus on your plan!
On a more general note, the mirror matchup is very important to master. I think PvP is a great matchup now actually. Micro intensive with a lot of different strategies available. The most frustrating thing to lose to these days is 4gate warp prism, but that can be held with great micro and base vision.
Hope this helps, regards master eu Protoss
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I think you are just not understanding the match up. I don't know about PvP that much, i don't play P, but i remember when i started playing Z (i was T and i just hate TvT, it's to stressfull, the positioning war is not something i enjoy) i was lost with the ZvZ, i was thinking it was a stupid match up.
Truth is i didn't had a clear idea of how the early game plays out and the match up in general, after getting some advice and chaging my mindset, i now enjoy ZvZ a lot. Yes mirror can be frustrating because it often boils out to a small mistake having a hudge impact. That's how mirror match up works, you both have the same tools so small edges are very important.
Change your mindset, PvP is almost all about micro imho, just focus more, watch your replays...with this kind of rant you're not going anywhere in the match up.
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mirrors are the hardest MU and due to the way protoss is designed, it can be a hard match to play. In PvP losing one stalker for free, or getting supply blocked once or losing a pylon or something can cost you the game. But at the same time, it leads to insane micro battles, especially when both sides are on blink stalker + immortal
just stick to one build, preferably 3 gate robo, do a bit of pressure, if you think you can finish him then go all in and add another gateway, if not then go for blink, and expand if youre feeling really ballys
its still a coin flip at times, but its getting alot better
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On January 12 2012 23:10 ThatGuy89 wrote:
mirrors are the hardest MU and due to the way protoss is designed, it can be a hard match to play. In PvP losing one stalker for free, or getting supply blocked once or losing a pylon or something can cost you the game. But at the same time, it leads to insane micro battles, especially when both sides are on blink stalker + immortal
just stick to one build, preferably 3 gate robo, do a bit of pressure, if you think you can finish him then go all in and add another gateway, if not then go for blink, and expand if youre feeling really ballys
its still a coin flip at times, but its getting alot better
I feel like Mirrors are the hardest because you clearly see which player played that game better. If you have some glaring hole in your play (you don't know when to drone / when to make units, don't chrono boost properly, don't macro your orbital well enough), you can kind of fudge it in other matchups by creating a better unit comp or playing more greedily, and just having more stuff.
In mirrors, if you don't do those things correctly, you die. Which is the beauty of the mirror matchup.
I personally love ZvZ and PvP. I find TvT to be incredibly boring, because you have a decent chance that both players will just mine out the map and not attack before 200/200
Edit: i don't really think ANY of them are coin flips.
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Coinflip or not it feels like they were almost completely ignored design wise; it'll be balanced so just leave it to whatever turns out good. And then in patches they pretty much had to actually change things and actually do something with them. But HotS doesn't seem to do much for PvP even though it's considered the worst by a lot of people? And the Warhound could potentially make TvT worse i believe although it's not clear yet (meaning if it's effective tank counter which would be awful imo).
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Cheeeesseeeee.. then, mix it up
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defensive 3 gate blink. -> Win.
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Thanks for the all the responses. My biggest problem is not knowing what to do after holding off early game aggression. Expanding is a huge risk since I can die any second. I try to be aggressive, but I don't really know how best to do that.
Btw for now I open defensive 3 gate blink stalker, I can hold off myself fine in early game, the problem is they somehow take their natural while containing me and then kill me with a big doom push minutes later.
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I play random.
Believe me, I feel your pain.
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From theoretical standpoint, mirror matchups are best test of skill because both players are on most equal footing. I see a lot of people saying PvP and ZvZ is frustrating though. I play T and really find TvT exciting due to positional wars. There's really a feeling of attacking and defending "territory" rather than only armies. I think mirror matchups put more stress on a players micro because with identical tech, it comes down to who can make more out of their units.
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On January 12 2012 20:11 lastshadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 18:58 Djagulingu wrote:
Being a coinflip matchup with both players doing some build and crossing their fingers for his opponent not doing the build that counters their build, ZvZ is still the best MM. It's not that you take half the map and wait until your opponent unsieges first and still you can expand. ? PvP isn't so much a coinflip anymore, and TvT is by far the best match-up [in the game] in terms of balance, even most P/Z progamers would say this.
A mirror matchup is balanced? Really?
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I actually ended up choosing my race by which mirror match-up I hated the least.
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I'm in Platinum, and in the last 11 PvP games I've lost 1 which was a sneaky cannon rush. I've been doing what day9 said to do on his daily on PvP. Which is the elfi style of 3gate Robo.
Basically I go Gate Zealot Stalker Stalker Robo Gate Gate Sentry Immortal, chrono boosting out the stalkers and attacking as soon as I can (around 5:15). I normally add in my scouting probe as well for a slight bonus and to scare the opponent. Most opponents in plat or below won't be able to defend properly (unless they're doing the adelscot build in which case it's not a 4gate and I can just go home) and you can normally kill a few probes and their first few units before being forced to leave. But even If I don't do any damage as long as I scout them and push any potential 4gates back I'm equal or ahead because I have tech up. So I can just macro with collosi and win 99% of games.
This works really well in platinum atm. See Day9s daily on the build http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-373-p1-pvp-3-gate-robo-variations-5720293 for more info.
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I always liked playing TvT's when i was gold, because of my stellar macro and unit positioning the only way i would die is if someone put their whole army into drops like 9 min into game when my eco is just kicking in!
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EPT
