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On January 04 2012 05:31 TheToast wrote:
**The overall point I'm trying to make is BW fans would do well to understand where SC2 fans are coming from and vice-versa. Nothing more.
Why can you not be a fan of both? ._.
There are quite a few of us out there you know.
Besides that, there is no point trying to convince anybody of something they don't watch. I'll let them enjoy whatever they want.
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On January 04 2012 11:18 Sawamura wrote:One thing I disliked about this post is first Nostalgia ? , two starcraft bw is stagnant because there is no change of strategy ? Maybe you have been taken a break from broodwar for 1 year + , Stork's proxy 4 gate against Flash , Modern TvZ Terran's are now much more comfortable in transitioning to Mech these day than they do back than , PvZ now has protoss having much more advantage than the zerg , Bisu just kill's you before your tech can kick in , TvT has change , Wraiths are used much more to gain map control and with the combination of that the terran players can either play okay I will divide this part of that map and you can take yours , or go in for the kill with that number of wraith and siege tank command . Zero's answer to 1 rax fe , I will Drone Rush you , and put down 4 hatcheries and by the time the terran moves out he is already way behind and late in tech and resources . A freaking genius , my hats of to zero next savior in my opinion . That's just the tip of the iceberg , there is so many changes to talk about that if i post all here It wouldn't serve any justice at all.Using one game to point out your argument isn't enough , when the matches aren't significant , audience refuse to give a care , but when you put TBLS on the line , show me a sleeping audience  .
Perhaps I erred in comparing SC2 to BW in such an apples to apples format. I've actually read many of the comments about the evolution of BW with interest; perhaps I've been away from it for too long. 
And it was nostalgia for me who hadn't played BW in a long time; which is mostly what this is about.
On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post.
Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying.
Anyway, sorry if the stream of consciousness format offended BW fans it wasn't meant to. Again, I was editorializing about my feelings having watched BW for the first time in a long time. I wasn't trying to analyze BW strategy as much as make a point about how I viewed the two communities within TL.
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10387 Posts
Just because the openings haven't changed much doesn't mean the strategies have stagnated .. Strategy is not limited to initial build orders lol.
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On January 04 2012 12:06 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post. Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying.
Please explain in what way the graphics of BW are comparable to watching paint dry. I am sorry my feeble mind is not capable of processing this on its own.
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On January 04 2012 12:58 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 12:06 TheToast wrote:On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post. Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying. Please explain in what way the graphics of BW are comparable to watching paint dry. I am sorry my feeble mind is not capable of processing this on its own.
I think he's saying that for some of the SC2 players who place a heavy emphasis on flashy graphics (perhaps at the expense of gameplay), the appeal of BW isn't immediately obvious.
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Firstly, strategy is constantly evolving in bw, yes openers are usually similar but opening builds are just part of strategy. Secondly, you just need to see more games. Just talking about opening builds, we've recently seen Jangbi do 2-gate aggression in PvT and Calm did a sneaky hatch tech hydra backstab. This isn't even talking about how much things have changed in mid-late game strategy. To say that bw strategy is stagnant is simply ignorance of what has been happening while you haven't been watching.
Edit: What I mean to say is, go watch more broodwar. I think you'll be surprised .
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On January 04 2012 13:04 Funnytoss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 12:58 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 12:06 TheToast wrote:On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post. Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying. Please explain in what way the graphics of BW are comparable to watching paint dry. I am sorry my feeble mind is not capable of processing this on its own. I think he's saying that for some of the SC2 players who place a heavy emphasis on flashy graphics (perhaps at the expense of gameplay), the appeal of BW isn't immediately obvious.
Much like the appeal of watching paint dry only becomes obvious once you are an expert on the subject?
It's a horrible analogy.
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United States10328 Posts
On January 04 2012 13:23 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 13:04 Funnytoss wrote:On January 04 2012 12:58 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 12:06 TheToast wrote:On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post. Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying. Please explain in what way the graphics of BW are comparable to watching paint dry. I am sorry my feeble mind is not capable of processing this on its own. I think he's saying that for some of the SC2 players who place a heavy emphasis on flashy graphics (perhaps at the expense of gameplay), the appeal of BW isn't immediately obvious. Much like the appeal of watching paint dry only becomes obvious once you are an expert on the subject? It's a horrible analogy.
Ah, but maybe watching the paint dry after you've painted a masterpiece is quite interesting, no? (Reading too far into this metaphor lol)
While I agree that BW isn't quite "stagnant," it's definitely less volatile than SC2. I'm not sure that's inherently a bad thing, though?
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Sawa, STOP IT. It's not helping the argument any further as you and others have made the point that innovation is MUCH MORE SUBTLE with BW that it is in SC2, and that it takes some saturation into the game to appreciate those changes over time.
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OP post would have been okay if he didn't cast judgement on a topic he knows little about (actually, this happens often with this user lol) and OpticalShot does a reasonable job of summarising why he was wrong.
There have been countless shifts (maybe they don't happen bi-weekly, wow sorry)... Don't give us your sour grapes shit because you want an excuse to stop playing a game... Just stop playing. You're very nearly turning what could have been a simple anecdote into a dumb BW vs SC2 argument, of which I think there's been enough.
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On January 05 2012 01:35 Chef wrote:
OP post would have been okay if he didn't cast judgement on a topic he knows little about (actually, this happens often with this user lol) and OpticalShot does a reasonable job of summarising why he was wrong.
There have been countless shifts (maybe they don't happen bi-weekly, wow sorry)... Don't give us your sour grapes shit because you want an excuse to stop playing a game... Just stop playing. You're very nearly turning what could have been a simple anecdote into a dumb BW vs SC2 argument, of which I think there's been enough.
There's a reason why I put this in blogs and not in BW or SC2 general, it's just my opinion and a bit of editorializing from the hip. Even if my arguement is a tad emotional and irrational, isn't that the perogative of a blog writer? And the whole point of my anecdote was in terms of BW vs SC2: it was my experience as someone who has moved entirely to SC2 for a long time going back to watch some BW.
Though I do appreciate all the criticism where constructive, seems I've missed a lot in my absence from BW. I conceed there are still some very interesting shifts going on in terms of unit composition and late game strategy. Thanks Sawa, Optical and others for catching me up
However I stand by my **opinion** that after ten years BW has become a bit undistinguished. But that is my own personal feeling, likely colored by watching Koreans pull out crazy new stratagies at MLGs this year, and watching players like Naniwa constantly elevating the level of gameplay. That doesn't mean BW is not still an amazing game, doesn't mean that it's not still great fun to play and watch, and it doesn't mean I won't start making time to watch some Pro League once in a while. I'm not trying to say it's okay to throw BW overboard and flame it; in fact I'm arguing the exact opposite. All I'm really saying is that after ten years, the big surprises have all been discovered, and maybe that just takes something away from the game for me personally
I'm just going to leave this at that. Those who disagree with me are free to do so.
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Your view is polarized because you are trying to compare something that has been refined versus something that is still unrefined and trying to find definition. Sounds to me like you don't enjoy the subtle variations as much anymore and would rather BW could go back in time where everything was fresh and new for you.
That's what happens when a sport becomes refined and the rules don't change anymore whereas we see rule changes all the time in professional sports to make the game more exciting, i.e. the NHL, NFL/CFL and NBA.
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EPT
