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Warning, this post contains spoilers of the December 24th SPL Matches
Two weeks ago Friday, I sat at work staring at the clock in anticipation. I could think of only one thing: that wonderful surplus of free time that always accompanies the holidays was about to begin. I began thinking to myself, what better way to kick off the holiday season than by watching some StarCraft 2? By the time I got off work and found my way home through the crazy holiday drivers, the big SC2 tournament of the day had already long since started. The rest of the night promised an underwhelming assortment of small tournaments I was not so interested in watching. But as I looked further down the list of events I saw two big SPL matchups were going to start in just about two hours.
I am no newcomer to BW. When I got the game in 2001, all my family had was a terrible dial-up connection with a very low data cap. Playing online was out of the question. So I did what any RTS obsessed child of the 90s would do, I played the campaign 50 million times. Then the custom campaigns. I once spent an hour lugging a very heavy PC and CRT monitor across the house, so my brother and I could play over null modem cable; only to have my brother decide he didn't like playing BW after losing one game. When we did finally get a decent broadband connection, Warcraft 3 had come out and I was hooked, leaving BW in the dust. It wasn't until late 2008 and hearing about SC2 that I finally picked BW back up and began playing seriously. I spent hours watching replays and VODs, cheering on Idra against the Koreans. I was still terrible, but good enough to flatten my friends in LAN games. When SC2 came out, I didn't look back. After all BW was old.
As such I haven't played BroodWar in years, the last time I had watched any Pro-BW at all was the 2010 WCG US finals, almost a year and a half ago. Since then I've been a devoted fan of SC2. After all, why go back? But with my precious Friday night ticking away and my dislike of watching old VODs, I thought to myself why the hell not? So when 9:00 came around I flipped on the stream and began watching some old school BW.
Within the first few minutes of the first game I was right back there: the sound effects, that gritty BW art style, the music--oh god, the music! All the memories of playing BW with friends, playing through the campaign a million times, watching idrA get smashed by Koreans; within minutes all these memories came flooding right back to me. This game was SC as it was supposed to be: CCs don't shoot at you, queens fly, and the units make the right noises. Zergling attacks make that terrifying *wump wump wump* instead of a pathetic *tickety tack*, photon cannons actually sound like a cannon, and hydralisks--well hydralisks just sound cool.
After years of watching huge MLG tournaments, I found myself unfazed by the glitz of the Proleauge. But the production value was just as good, and the casters were so energetic, (although I have to admit I found the SPL Santa dancers a bit much). Though the audience was not quite the size as at an MLG, it was big and equally as excited.
The first match was a ZvZ between Zero and HoeJJa. ZvZ, supposedly the worst matchup. But I was enthralled nonetheless. Their perfect macro, perfect timing, neither with a single drone out of place. Each had amazing unit control, the matchup was a brilliant example of the amazing skill of the BW heros, no SC2 player comes close to this level of perfection. A flurry of scourge and zerglings, I didn't even care that I couldn't understand the caster. This was BW at it's best, what else did I really need to understand? Next match was between Free and Perfective, and what an awesome match. The fact that I had no idea who either of these players were made no difference to me. The CJ/Team 8 match between Snow and Jeadong was also exciting as all hell, I was on the edge of my seat as the king of zerg took on such an amazing Protoss player. The wacky Korean commercials and strange Pro-League Christmas theatrics (Flash, where's my present?) just added to the sense that I was truly watching something special.
But for all my excitement and nostalgia, as my night of BW enthrallment went on I began to get a growing sinking feeling in my stomach. I had seen these matches before. Not these exact games, but each one played out just as you would expect. There were no new strategies, no break out play styles, everyone who you expected to win did. Every zerg in a ZvP opens 3 base 5 hatch, every protoss opens FFE. The builds are all the same, the strategies are all the same. When Light proxied Flash, I momentarily rose to the edge of my seat, wondering to myself if I was about to observe an amazing upset. But no, Flash's flashie sense kicked in, he saw the rax and proceeded to flatten Light just as everyone expected.
In some ways, I wonder if these players are too good. Even the worst of Pro-League players have nearly flawless macro and timing, leaving matches to be decided over small missteps in micro. Every mirror matchup has become ZvZ. In Shy versus Stats, I sat bleary eyed as I watched 30 something minutes of dragoons dashing in and out of combat, as if in some ancient traditional dance. Even the audience was unmoved, as the casters cut to the view of several audience members apparently asleep. But soon the whole map was filled with battle lines of dragoons, dashing in for attacks and quickly retreating only to do it all over again. I found myself yearning to see two deathball armies smash into each other. At least it would be quicker.
But like the dragoons, Pro-BW has become a ritualized dance, like an ancient Samurai battle. Each side goes through the same build game in and out, builds up and army, and wins or loses over small issues of positioning or control. Those wishing for an easy "cheesy" win are frowned upon for snubbing the tradition. Having played BW, seeing the skill with which these players compete, I can appreciate this dance for all its subtleties, and the micro nuances. In likeness, all of my wonderful memories of BW allow me to appreciate all the little things that make this game amazing--even if I prefer to watch SC2.
Along that line, I've begun to think about the BW/SC2 infighting that has taken place across this community in the past year. The SC2 newcomers derided BW as boring and archaic while the BW fans argue that theirs is the superior game.
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they?
SC2 newcomers need to realize there is more to BW than meets the eye, that this game requires immense skill and has great depth; even if it appears to be dragoons doing the a-move waltz. SC2 newcomers need to realize this game has a lot of sentimental connection for some people and stop blasting BW for what it's not.
BW fans also need to realize that their game has become stagnant, we aren't going to see pro-players create brand new break out strategies, we aren't going to see brand new innovative play like we did in the early 2000s. A player like Savior is not going to re-invent the game again. BW is stuck in a rut, it's settled into a comfortable routine like a retired couple. And there is nothing wrong with that, if that's what you like. But for the same reason, it's not a sin to wonder what someone like Flash could accomplish in SC2. We could be talking about changing the entire way this game is played, new strategies, and if anyone could take on the deathball it's him. So please, stop flaming people off the planet for wanting to see Flash play SC2, god knows it would be amazingly spectacular.
As for me, I've discovered that once you are a BW fan, you are always a BW fan. I'll still prefer to watch SC2, but maybe on one those of slow nights I'll find myself clicking over to one of those SPL streams, to relieve a little nostalgia 
(Though to avoid embarrassing myself, I will not be playing BW...)
-edit: clarity & grammar
 
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On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
BW fans also need to realize that their game has become stagnant, we aren't going to see pro-players create brand new break out strategies, we aren't going to see brand new innovative play like we did in the early 2000s. A player like Savior is not going to re-invent the game again. BW is stuck in a rut, it's settled into a comfortable routine like a retired couple. And there is nothing wrong with that, if that's what you like. But for the same reason, it's not a sin to wonder what someone like Flash could accomplish in SC2. We could be talking about changing the entire way this game is played, new strategies, and if anyone could take on the deathball it's him. So please, stop flaming people off the planet for wanting to see Flash play SC2, god knows it would be amazingly spectacular.
I like the post but this paragraph is kinda half-and-half right. I don't think we'll see any real "re-inventions" of the game, but there have been a decent amount of strategies devised over the past year and a half or so. Queens against mech comes to mind and I'm sure people who have been following closer than I have can come up with more.
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On January 04 2012 04:49 hasuprotoss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
BW fans also need to realize that their game has become stagnant, we aren't going to see pro-players create brand new break out strategies, we aren't going to see brand new innovative play like we did in the early 2000s. A player like Savior is not going to re-invent the game again. BW is stuck in a rut, it's settled into a comfortable routine like a retired couple. And there is nothing wrong with that, if that's what you like. But for the same reason, it's not a sin to wonder what someone like Flash could accomplish in SC2. We could be talking about changing the entire way this game is played, new strategies, and if anyone could take on the deathball it's him. So please, stop flaming people off the planet for wanting to see Flash play SC2, god knows it would be amazingly spectacular.
I like the post but this paragraph is kinda half-and-half right. I don't think we'll see any real "re-inventions" of the game, but there have been a decent amount of strategies devised over the past year and a half or so. Queens against mech comes to mind and I'm sure people who have been following closer than I have can come up with more.
I am, admittedly, editorializing. I realize there have been some shifts in unit composition and some other minute changes, but my point is that overall I feel that BW has sort of settled on a set number of strategies and builds that are seen in pretty much ever single game. We are not going to see another Savior develop the next 3 hatch muta or invent some crazy new timing that everyone else needs to figure out how to beat. That's what I mean.
SC2 by comparison is relatively volitile, a good example was SlayerS blue flame hellion play that dominated MLG about 6 months back. I personally find that kind of innovation and constant formulation of new strategies to be exciting. We're just not going to see anything on that level again in BW, for good or for bad.
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I wouldn't call Brood War stagnant at all as players do make tweaks and based on the revolving maps.
We've seen all sorts of funky shit from the PL players thus far which led to sloppy wins and of course if let's say Flash were playing that kind of shit wouldn't fly so easy, i.e. Horang's d webs against PianO and Effort continuing to churn out queens non-stop against Iris' mech build.
The great thing about watching Brood War for so long is the fact that several of us know what's happening as you said. Doesn't mean there aren't slight variations because there are and that's what gets us excited.
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Flash playing SC2 is not going to change the way the pathfinding work, and probably not that much.
BW still sees plenty of innovation, you have no idea what you are talking about. Like yeah, every protoss opens FFE, what does that even mean ? Of course they do 90% of the time. Just like terran more or less have been going one rax FE in TvZ since 2006, and yet the match-up has evolved a fuckton. I mean, without really inventing a build order, Flash completely reinvented TvZ midgame at the beginning of its dominance, going aout with that first MnM group was almost a shift of paradigm.
For the most glaring example since 2010, go watch a few Bisu PvZ (we even dubbed a "neo Bisu build") or the recent air trend in TvT (which like completely changes the way the match-up is played). And no zerg seems to have a solution. It's exactly
some crazy new timing that everyone else needs to figure out how to beat
because I can tell you, zergs are having trouble against it.
I also feel like cheese is also frowned a lot less upon than in SC2. Look at that Calm vs BeSt game for instance, I can assure you everybody loved it. The thing is cheesing a good player requires a certain degree of surprise nowadays, but strange one-off build are seen a lot, just go look at the last Flash finals. Or the sere between Flash and Reality.
Basically, your problem is that de first 4-5 min of the game are really well understood in bw... Sure that's true, but there a little more to bw than this...
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BW is fine, it just has more robots than innovators playing today in proleague. Some players still change match ups, it is subtle now, but it is still change. The coaches also determine somewhat of how the players play their match. Losing Oov as a coach will hurt the Terran changes a lot.
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I don't think it's stagnant at all... as long as the mapmakers keep on doing what they've been doing, players will continue to explore and re-discover strategies to take advantage of the maps.
Not every PvZ opens as FE vs 3base 5-6hatch. We saw Jangbi try early gateway pressure to gain advantages with the early zealots. Commentators were heralding Jangbi's calculations and said Jangbi had a good advantage blablabla until Effort's hydras came knocking in and Jangbi didn't have storm - then commentators went "what, no storm? STORM WHERE IS STORM NOOOOO NO STORM WAI NO STORM GEE GEE."
We also saw Brave pull out one of the oldest tricks in the book, the cannon rush, against Jaehoon. Perfectly placed cannons thanks to the map design. Now that it's been done, sure that spot will probably get scouted every time in PvP on that map, but hey, who says someone can't try something else?
GoRush had his share of adrenaline rush when he correctly predicted sHy's hallucination-arbiter strategy. When was the last time you saw high templars being made for the hallucination timing, not storm? GoRush was taking a lot of flak in the Korean community (online boards, mainly) for his noobish commentating this season, especially compared to the newly arrived commentating bonjwa LSW, but with that successful prediction, the community 'gave him another chance' or at the least acknowledged that GoRush was not a noob at commentating. Anyways, that went off the point a little bit.
We also saw major 'metagame' shifts (oh Lord I hope I used that word correctly here) over the course of last year or two on plays like queen-heavy ZvT (mech), bio early game to late game mech switch TvZ, hive tech ZvZ, and gateway-first PvZ (or even nexus-gate-core before forge, as Stork pulled off against Soulkey on Benzene).
BW scene is still moving. It's not stagnant. Perhaps the "lack of new strategies" could be attributed to the less games this season - bo5 as opposed to bo7 - and no WL (in WL, people tend to have specific sniper strategies or cheese). Still, games are as exciting as ever, because the progamers know that more is on the line with less games played. I strongly disagree against statements like "stuck in a rut" or "comfortable like retired couple".
I'm Korean and I translate (as you may already know) so I have the pleasure of fully understanding and appreciating the OGN broadcast of the BW matches. For that reason, I never watched any of Sayle's commentary, although I've heard so many good things about it. I suggest that if you haven't already, check out Sayle - I don't know how close it is to the original Korean broadcast, but I believe that a proper English broadcast will add several new dimensions to the viewer's experience.
*edit: 5/5 to the OP for a good read.
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Sometimes I think being less volatile is good. There is more limitation to how the game is played in BW but that makes the change in metagame even more impressive, asit takes a longer time and you can see a gradual change in the trend. Changing within a stable Match-up is far more impressive to watch than watching people doing different thigns with different strategies. I would even argue for the development of the e-sports it is even better to have some standardised strategies. For example, in football(soccer) there are certain fixed formations and some basic strategies.
It is vital for the longetivity of the game as SC2 will eventually reach that phase. The stagnant strategies can limit the room for innovation but at the same time make the innovation even more spectacular.
Also while I think new strategies are still coming up from tmie to time in BW...
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On January 04 2012 05:22 Kralic wrote:
BW is fine, it just has more robots than innovators playing today in proleague. Some players still change match ups, it is subtle now, but it is still change.
Yes, thank you. I think this is really what I'm trying to say.
On January 04 2012 05:15 corumjhaelen wrote:For the most glaring example since 2010, go watch a few Bisu PvZ (we even dubbed a "neo Bisu build") or the recent air trend in TvT (which like completely changes the way the match-up is played). And no zerg seems to have a solution. It's exactly because I can tell you, zergs are having trouble against it.
You're right, there have been some changes in strategies. But how many more can we expect? There's only so many ways to play this game, only so many units to use. If BW has not now stopped evolving, how long until it does? And it is relatively stagnant compared to SC2, which has seen 2 years of intense strategy formulation and will be getting new units in the next few years.
Again, I'm editorializing about my general feelings on watching BW--not writing an in depth strategy analysis. I'm also ot trying to argue that it's a bad thing. Chess is as good of a game now as it was in the 1300s. (I can't stress this enough)
**The overall point I'm trying to make is BW fans would do well to understand where SC2 fans are coming from and vice-versa. Nothing more.
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Agree with the posters above me. Also maps are a key factor. Savior was a master of plying a map. His positioning and army movement were what made him so good. And we still see new features added to maps and new layouts tried, e.g. destructible temples, mineral blocks, invisible lurker eggs, neutral command centers, double gas bases, destructible assimilators and so on. BW strategy is alive and kicking.
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On January 04 2012 05:31 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 05:22 Kralic wrote:
BW is fine, it just has more robots than innovators playing today in proleague. Some players still change match ups, it is subtle now, but it is still change. Yes, thank you. I think this is really what I'm trying to say. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 05:15 corumjhaelen wrote:For the most glaring example since 2010, go watch a few Bisu PvZ (we even dubbed a "neo Bisu build") or the recent air trend in TvT (which like completely changes the way the match-up is played). And no zerg seems to have a solution. It's exactly
some crazy new timing that everyone else needs to figure out how to beat
because I can tell you, zergs are having trouble against it. You're right, there have been some changes in strategies. But how many more can we expect? There's only so many ways to play this game, only so many units to use. If BW has not now stopped evolving, how long until it does? And it is relatively stagnant compared to SC2, which has seen 2 years of intense strategy formulation and will be getting new units in the next few years. Again, I'm editorializing about my general feelings on watching BW--not writing an in depth strategy analysis. I'm also ot trying to argue that it's a bad thing. Chess is as good of a game now as it was in the 1300s. (I can't stress this enough) **The overall point I'm trying to make is BW fans would do well to understand where SC2 fans are coming from and vice-versa. Nothing more.
It' really not always that subtle lol... And yeah, there are quite a few robots in PL, but I mean, Idra plays sc2 now...
How many can we expect ? I dunno, lots and lots more ? I mean only looking at something like how to make mech transitions late game TvZ would probably take years to stabilize... Honestly, I don't see and end in innovation as long as there are great players playing the game competitively any time soon. I don't even see a reason for it.
And honestly, the main grip of SC2 fans with BW is that strategy is too stale ? Are those the same who think Sc2 has more emphasis on strategy ? Because that would indeed be ironic.
Edit : and yeah I understand that fastest evolution is somethng good in SC2. But honestly, those changes are not really deep, the game is getting figureds out much faster, and I'm not sure that with those units SC2 will fare as well as BW in the long run.
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What the heck are you smoking OP? Have you SEEN modern TvT. It's wraiths and valkyries and all sorts of crazy mass vulture nuttiness. Very little of the stagnant tank line dropship play we used to see.
And ZvTmech uses queens all the time now, and it's AWESOME. Zero is still the king of queens too. I love it when he ZvTs. Hell, we've even seen guardians show up.
I remember a PvP where both players made dark archons for feedback.
There's still plenty of innovation. It's just that some units are just... bad. You're not going to see lots of ghosts or scouts. That's why people were very excited about SC2 back in beta and early release. People thought it'd be a whole bunch of fun units with tons of depth. Nope... just marauders.
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I will reiterate my previous post.
What is innovation, everything is driving on the road and you fly, thats innovation.
Everyone is staying in the trenches while u invent tanks, thats innovation.
WIthout a set trend there CANNOT be a innovation, strategies are more diverse in SC2 but are those real innnovations whereas the stable state of SCBW makes people innovate against a trend, which is a lot more impressive.
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On January 04 2012 05:15 corumjhaelen wrote:Flash playing SC2 is not going to change the way the pathfinding work, and probably not that much. BW still sees plenty of innovation, you have no idea what you are talking about. Like yeah, every protoss opens FFE, what does that even mean ? Of course they do 90% of the time. Just like terran more or less have been going one rax FE in TvZ since 2006, and yet the match-up has evolved a fuckton. I mean, without really inventing a build order, Flash completely reinvented TvZ midgame at the beginning of its dominance, going aout with that first MnM group was almost a shift of paradigm. For the most glaring example since 2010, go watch a few Bisu PvZ (we even dubbed a "neo Bisu build") or the recent air trend in TvT (which like completely changes the way the match-up is played). And no zerg seems to have a solution. It's exactly because I can tell you, zergs are having trouble against it. I also feel like cheese is also frowned a lot less upon than in SC2. Look at that Calm vs BeSt game for instance, I can assure you everybody loved it. The thing is cheesing a good player requires a certain degree of surprise nowadays, but strange one-off build are seen a lot, just go look at the last Flash finals. Or the sere between Flash and Reality. Basically, your problem is that de first 4-5 min of the game are really well understood in bw... Sure that's true, but there a little more to bw than this...
Well the thing about cheese in BW is that people don't usually win from it. They gain a sizable advantage early game and then play out a macro game.
On January 04 2012 06:01 EternaLLegacy wrote:
What the heck are you smoking OP? Have you SEEN modern TvT. It's wraiths and valkyries and all sorts of crazy mass vulture nuttiness. Very little of the stagnant tank line dropship play we used to see.
And ZvTmech uses queens all the time now, and it's AWESOME. Zero is still the king of queens too. I love it when he ZvTs. Hell, we've even seen guardians show up.
I remember a PvP where both players made dark archons for feedback.
There's still plenty of innovation. It's just that some units are just... bad. You're not going to see lots of ghosts or scouts. That's why people were very excited about SC2 back in beta and early release. People thought it'd be a whole bunch of fun units with tons of depth. Nope... just marauders.
Yah I have the similar feelings about SC2. It's a good game, but some of the units/abilities don't really reward player skill. It's really weird, coz it's almost like the devs are too worried about imbalance and catering to the casual crowd. I don't know why they didn't take the concepts of BW that made it really fun/competitive and implement them in....
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On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they?
Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post.
BW fans also need to realize that their game has become stagnant, we aren't going to see pro-players create brand new break out strategies, we aren't going to see brand new innovative play like we did in the early 2000s. A player like Savior is not going to re-invent the game again. BW is stuck in a rut, it's settled into a comfortable routine like a retired couple. And there is nothing wrong with that, if that's what you like. But for the same reason, it's not a sin to wonder what someone like Flash could accomplish in SC2. We could be talking about changing the entire way this game is played, new strategies, and if anyone could take on the deathball it's him. So please, stop flaming people off the planet for wanting to see Flash play SC2, god knows it would be amazingly spectacular.
Flash playing BW is amazingly spectacular. I don't know or care what he would be able to do in SC2.
You are really way off base here, as other people people have already pointed out.
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On January 04 2012 06:53 Nazza wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 05:15 corumjhaelen wrote:Flash playing SC2 is not going to change the way the pathfinding work, and probably not that much. BW still sees plenty of innovation, you have no idea what you are talking about. Like yeah, every protoss opens FFE, what does that even mean ? Of course they do 90% of the time. Just like terran more or less have been going one rax FE in TvZ since 2006, and yet the match-up has evolved a fuckton. I mean, without really inventing a build order, Flash completely reinvented TvZ midgame at the beginning of its dominance, going aout with that first MnM group was almost a shift of paradigm. For the most glaring example since 2010, go watch a few Bisu PvZ (we even dubbed a "neo Bisu build") or the recent air trend in TvT (which like completely changes the way the match-up is played). And no zerg seems to have a solution. It's exactly
some crazy new timing that everyone else needs to figure out how to beat
because I can tell you, zergs are having trouble against it. I also feel like cheese is also frowned a lot less upon than in SC2. Look at that Calm vs BeSt game for instance, I can assure you everybody loved it. The thing is cheesing a good player requires a certain degree of surprise nowadays, but strange one-off build are seen a lot, just go look at the last Flash finals. Or the sere between Flash and Reality. Basically, your problem is that de first 4-5 min of the game are really well understood in bw... Sure that's true, but there a little more to bw than this... Well the thing about cheese in BW is that people don't usually win from it. They gain a sizable advantage early game and then play out a macro game. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 06:01 EternaLLegacy wrote:
What the heck are you smoking OP? Have you SEEN modern TvT. It's wraiths and valkyries and all sorts of crazy mass vulture nuttiness. Very little of the stagnant tank line dropship play we used to see.
And ZvTmech uses queens all the time now, and it's AWESOME. Zero is still the king of queens too. I love it when he ZvTs. Hell, we've even seen guardians show up.
I remember a PvP where both players made dark archons for feedback.
There's still plenty of innovation. It's just that some units are just... bad. You're not going to see lots of ghosts or scouts. That's why people were very excited about SC2 back in beta and early release. People thought it'd be a whole bunch of fun units with tons of depth. Nope... just marauders. Yah I have the similar feelings about SC2. It's a good game, but some of the units/abilities don't really reward player skill. It's really weird, coz it's almost like the devs are too worried about imbalance and catering to the casual crowd. I don't know why they didn't take the concepts of BW that made it really fun/competitive and implement them in....
And also cheeses have a significantly lower win rate in BW compared to SC2. In SC2, you could literally 1-1-1 into tournament titles or 2 rax into GSL finals. While win rate of cheeses or all-ins decrease day by day, it's still significantly higher in SC2 than BW. In BW, you need to pull something like Stork vs Flash (on Bloody Ridge), Reality vs Jaedong (on Monte Kristo) or Hyvaa vs Bisu (on Neo Aztec) if you want to win with cheese. In SC2, random people can eliminate people of Nestea's or MC's scale by doing stupid shit (2 Rax, Infestor Rush, 1-1-1).
EDIT: 1/5 for your flawed view on BW. Retired couple? Give me a break. What kind of a retired couple clubs every night?
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On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
BW fans also need to realize that their game has become stagnant, we aren't going to see pro-players create brand new break out strategies, we aren't going to see brand new innovative play like we did in the early 2000s. A player like Savior is not going to re-invent the game again. BW is stuck in a rut, it's settled into a comfortable routine like a retired couple. And there is nothing wrong with that, if that's what you like. But for the same reason, it's not a sin to wonder what someone like Flash could accomplish in SC2. We could be talking about changing the entire way this game is played, new strategies, and if anyone could take on the deathball it's him. So please, stop flaming people off the planet for wanting to see Flash play SC2, god knows it would be amazingly spectacular.
If this is how you see BW, don't you get why we do this..
So please, stop flaming people off the planet for wanting to see Flash play SC2, god knows it would be amazingly spectacular.
..when you want one great innovator to switch game?
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I wholeheartedly disagree about coming up with new strategies. I stopped watching BW in 2009 and started watching again in 2011 and was blown away by the usage of queens in TvZ. I remember this because before I came back to watch BW,there was this one game, a TvZ between Flash and some zerg, where Flash took the whole lower part of the map, used so many siege tanks to defend, and the zerg seemed helpless against it. There was a lot of debate about whether the matchup was broken and what the zerg player could have done against a massive number of siege tanks.
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maybe not create new strategies outright but metagame shifts are still taking place. already mentioned are wraiths instead of mech dropplay in tvt and broodling queens in zvt.
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One thing I disliked about this post is first Nostalgia ? , two starcraft bw is stagnant because there is no change of strategy ? Maybe you have been taken a break from broodwar for 1 year + , Stork's proxy 4 gate against Flash , Modern TvZ Terran's are now much more comfortable in transitioning to Mech these day than they do back than , PvZ now has protoss having much more advantage than the zerg , Bisu just kill's you before your tech can kick in , TvT has change , Wraiths are used much more to gain map control and with the combination of that the terran players can either play okay I will divide this part of that map and you can take yours , or go in for the kill with that number of wraith and siege tank command .
Zero's answer to 1 rax fe , I will Drone Rush you , and put down 4 hatcheries and by the time the terran moves out he is already way behind and late in tech and resources . A freaking genius , my hats of to zero next savior in my opinion .
That's just the tip of the iceberg , there is so many changes to talk about that if i post all here It wouldn't serve any justice at all.Using one game to point out your argument isn't enough , when the matches aren't significant , audience refuse to give a care , but when you put TBLS on the line , show me a sleeping audience  .
On January 04 2012 07:08 Necosarius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
BW fans also need to realize that their game has become stagnant, we aren't going to see pro-players create brand new break out strategies, we aren't going to see brand new innovative play like we did in the early 2000s. A player like Savior is not going to re-invent the game again. BW is stuck in a rut, it's settled into a comfortable routine like a retired couple. And there is nothing wrong with that, if that's what you like. But for the same reason, it's not a sin to wonder what someone like Flash could accomplish in SC2. We could be talking about changing the entire way this game is played, new strategies, and if anyone could take on the deathball it's him. So please, stop flaming people off the planet for wanting to see Flash play SC2, god knows it would be amazingly spectacular.
If this is how you see BW, don't you get why we do this.. Show nested quote +
So please, stop flaming people off the planet for wanting to see Flash play SC2, god knows it would be amazingly spectacular.
..when you want one great innovator to switch game?
I have been saying this around a few times already it seems broowar is some sort of a talent pool for sc2 to gain more better players hoping with the talent this pro player it will make their game better . Well hoping and it happening is a two different thing in my opinion.
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On January 04 2012 05:31 TheToast wrote:
**The overall point I'm trying to make is BW fans would do well to understand where SC2 fans are coming from and vice-versa. Nothing more.
Why can you not be a fan of both? ._.
There are quite a few of us out there you know.
Besides that, there is no point trying to convince anybody of something they don't watch. I'll let them enjoy whatever they want.
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On January 04 2012 11:18 Sawamura wrote:One thing I disliked about this post is first Nostalgia ? , two starcraft bw is stagnant because there is no change of strategy ? Maybe you have been taken a break from broodwar for 1 year + , Stork's proxy 4 gate against Flash , Modern TvZ Terran's are now much more comfortable in transitioning to Mech these day than they do back than , PvZ now has protoss having much more advantage than the zerg , Bisu just kill's you before your tech can kick in , TvT has change , Wraiths are used much more to gain map control and with the combination of that the terran players can either play okay I will divide this part of that map and you can take yours , or go in for the kill with that number of wraith and siege tank command . Zero's answer to 1 rax fe , I will Drone Rush you , and put down 4 hatcheries and by the time the terran moves out he is already way behind and late in tech and resources . A freaking genius , my hats of to zero next savior in my opinion . That's just the tip of the iceberg , there is so many changes to talk about that if i post all here It wouldn't serve any justice at all.Using one game to point out your argument isn't enough , when the matches aren't significant , audience refuse to give a care , but when you put TBLS on the line , show me a sleeping audience .
Perhaps I erred in comparing SC2 to BW in such an apples to apples format. I've actually read many of the comments about the evolution of BW with interest; perhaps I've been away from it for too long.
And it was nostalgia for me who hadn't played BW in a long time; which is mostly what this is about.
On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post.
Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying.
Anyway, sorry if the stream of consciousness format offended BW fans it wasn't meant to. Again, I was editorializing about my feelings having watched BW for the first time in a long time. I wasn't trying to analyze BW strategy as much as make a point about how I viewed the two communities within TL.
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10387 Posts
Just because the openings haven't changed much doesn't mean the strategies have stagnated .. Strategy is not limited to initial build orders lol.
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On January 04 2012 12:06 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post. Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying.
Please explain in what way the graphics of BW are comparable to watching paint dry. I am sorry my feeble mind is not capable of processing this on its own.
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On January 04 2012 12:58 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 12:06 TheToast wrote:On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post. Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying. Please explain in what way the graphics of BW are comparable to watching paint dry. I am sorry my feeble mind is not capable of processing this on its own.
I think he's saying that for some of the SC2 players who place a heavy emphasis on flashy graphics (perhaps at the expense of gameplay), the appeal of BW isn't immediately obvious.
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Firstly, strategy is constantly evolving in bw, yes openers are usually similar but opening builds are just part of strategy. Secondly, you just need to see more games. Just talking about opening builds, we've recently seen Jangbi do 2-gate aggression in PvT and Calm did a sneaky hatch tech hydra backstab. This isn't even talking about how much things have changed in mid-late game strategy. To say that bw strategy is stagnant is simply ignorance of what has been happening while you haven't been watching.
Edit: What I mean to say is, go watch more broodwar. I think you'll be surprised .
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On January 04 2012 13:04 Funnytoss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 12:58 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 12:06 TheToast wrote:On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post. Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying. Please explain in what way the graphics of BW are comparable to watching paint dry. I am sorry my feeble mind is not capable of processing this on its own. I think he's saying that for some of the SC2 players who place a heavy emphasis on flashy graphics (perhaps at the expense of gameplay), the appeal of BW isn't immediately obvious.
Much like the appeal of watching paint dry only becomes obvious once you are an expert on the subject?
It's a horrible analogy.
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United States10328 Posts
On January 04 2012 13:23 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 13:04 Funnytoss wrote:On January 04 2012 12:58 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 12:06 TheToast wrote:On January 04 2012 07:02 Rostam wrote:On January 04 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote:
Trying to argue this to someone who has never played BW, who don't understand the immense skill involved, who don't see the subtleties, who don't have those wonderful personal memories of BW: this is like trying to argue that watching paint drying is more exciting than watching explosions--on the basis that the explosions are badly designed. Don't be upset that they don't get it, how could they? Comparing BW to watching paint dry. Great post. Really, it was clearly an analogy about the graphics between the two games, and that SC2 newcomers may not understand the allure of BW, not having played the game. I'm sorry this point was lost on you but I think it was clear what I was saying. Please explain in what way the graphics of BW are comparable to watching paint dry. I am sorry my feeble mind is not capable of processing this on its own. I think he's saying that for some of the SC2 players who place a heavy emphasis on flashy graphics (perhaps at the expense of gameplay), the appeal of BW isn't immediately obvious. Much like the appeal of watching paint dry only becomes obvious once you are an expert on the subject? It's a horrible analogy.
Ah, but maybe watching the paint dry after you've painted a masterpiece is quite interesting, no? (Reading too far into this metaphor lol)
While I agree that BW isn't quite "stagnant," it's definitely less volatile than SC2. I'm not sure that's inherently a bad thing, though?
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Sawa, STOP IT. It's not helping the argument any further as you and others have made the point that innovation is MUCH MORE SUBTLE with BW that it is in SC2, and that it takes some saturation into the game to appreciate those changes over time.
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OP post would have been okay if he didn't cast judgement on a topic he knows little about (actually, this happens often with this user lol) and OpticalShot does a reasonable job of summarising why he was wrong.
There have been countless shifts (maybe they don't happen bi-weekly, wow sorry)... Don't give us your sour grapes shit because you want an excuse to stop playing a game... Just stop playing. You're very nearly turning what could have been a simple anecdote into a dumb BW vs SC2 argument, of which I think there's been enough.
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On January 05 2012 01:35 Chef wrote:
OP post would have been okay if he didn't cast judgement on a topic he knows little about (actually, this happens often with this user lol) and OpticalShot does a reasonable job of summarising why he was wrong.
There have been countless shifts (maybe they don't happen bi-weekly, wow sorry)... Don't give us your sour grapes shit because you want an excuse to stop playing a game... Just stop playing. You're very nearly turning what could have been a simple anecdote into a dumb BW vs SC2 argument, of which I think there's been enough.
There's a reason why I put this in blogs and not in BW or SC2 general, it's just my opinion and a bit of editorializing from the hip. Even if my arguement is a tad emotional and irrational, isn't that the perogative of a blog writer? And the whole point of my anecdote was in terms of BW vs SC2: it was my experience as someone who has moved entirely to SC2 for a long time going back to watch some BW.
Though I do appreciate all the criticism where constructive, seems I've missed a lot in my absence from BW. I conceed there are still some very interesting shifts going on in terms of unit composition and late game strategy. Thanks Sawa, Optical and others for catching me up
However I stand by my **opinion** that after ten years BW has become a bit undistinguished. But that is my own personal feeling, likely colored by watching Koreans pull out crazy new stratagies at MLGs this year, and watching players like Naniwa constantly elevating the level of gameplay. That doesn't mean BW is not still an amazing game, doesn't mean that it's not still great fun to play and watch, and it doesn't mean I won't start making time to watch some Pro League once in a while. I'm not trying to say it's okay to throw BW overboard and flame it; in fact I'm arguing the exact opposite. All I'm really saying is that after ten years, the big surprises have all been discovered, and maybe that just takes something away from the game for me personally
I'm just going to leave this at that. Those who disagree with me are free to do so.
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Your view is polarized because you are trying to compare something that has been refined versus something that is still unrefined and trying to find definition. Sounds to me like you don't enjoy the subtle variations as much anymore and would rather BW could go back in time where everything was fresh and new for you.
That's what happens when a sport becomes refined and the rules don't change anymore whereas we see rule changes all the time in professional sports to make the game more exciting, i.e. the NHL, NFL/CFL and NBA.
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EPT
