EPTSadly this wont change peoples minds. They will still be whining and blaming GOM.
Doa's take on the Naniwa/GOMtv situation. - Page 4
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CEPEHDREI
Germany1521 Posts
Sadly this wont change peoples minds. They will still be whining and blaming GOM. | ||
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EchoZ
Japan5041 Posts
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
Very good blog though 5/5. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On December 15 2011 13:07 CEPEHDREI wrote: gj DoA. Sadly this wont change peoples minds. They will still be whining and blaming GOM. If they can still blame GOM at this point and say they won't watch, I'll be happy because then LR threads will be that much better without fanboys. | ||
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CinnaBuns
United States34 Posts
On December 15 2011 06:59 aTiMaGikL wrote: In the word of Vince Lombardi; "Winning isn’t everything; it’s the only thing." Eastern cultures have to start realizing this. It transcends sports having deep roots and applications in the real world. Are you serious? Vince Lombardi is rolling over in his grave from your failure to understand his quote. Do you know what the Packers' record was during his first year as coach? 1-10-1. Do you know what the Packers didn't do? They didn't just trot onto the field and let the game end via delay of game penalties and 10 second runoffs. They tried, and they failed, and they got better. They were beholden to their fans (who were pretty pissed) to try to be competitive even as they were getting trounced. Btw, Lombardi himself has said that what he meant was "Winning isn't everything. The will to win is the only thing." | ||
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Blondinbengt
Sweden578 Posts
I don't have a problem with tournament organizers being able to do stuff like this even when no rules were broken, but in regard to the specific situation that occured in this case I do have some concerns. What would have happened if Naniwa had won with his worker rush? As close to throwing a game as a worker rush might be, it is still not the same as instantly typing gg and leaving the game, there's an important distinction to be made here. Using a build/strategy that has an extremely low chance of succeeding does not lower your chances of winning to 0, it might be incredibly close to 0, but it's still not 0. So even if Naniwa did indeed expect to lose with his rush (I haven't seen a statement from him specifically saying this, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption), he did give himself a chance of winning, it might have been 0,0000001%, but it's still there. And this leads me to wonder, what would have happened if Nestea had suffered a mental break the second Naniwas probes reached his base, perhaps out of sheer shock at what he was seeing, causing him to fuck up so horrifically that he lost. What would GOM have done, would they have reacted the same way that they did or would they have accepted what Naniwa did? And just to remind people that this isn't as crazy of a scenario as you might think, remember that Morrow won his second semifinal game in the TL Open #6 against Strelok with a pure and simple worker rush. I think this is an interesting question because if the reason why Naniwa faced such a huge wave of negative reactions was because of that he lost and if the reaction would have been different if he won then where do we draw the line? Should people be allowed to use some extremely unorthodox strategies like a mothership rush or 1 base carriers but not others like worker rushes? | ||
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nekoconeco
Australia359 Posts
As close to throwing a game as a worker rush might be, it is still not the same as instantly typing gg and leaving the game, there's an important distinction to be made here. Using a build/strategy that has an extremely low chance of succeeding does not lower your chances of winning to 0, it might be incredibly close to 0, but it's still not 0. So even if Naniwa did indeed expect to lose with his rush (I haven't seen a statement from him specifically saying this, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption), he did give himself a chance of winning, it might have been 0,0000001%, but it's still there. I agree with this that he did not technically break any rules but it is pretty much impossible to win even with micro unless Nestea takes his hands off the keyboard aswell. But he should have known how it would look. Also I think that GomTV staff should have talked to Naniwa before the match and discussed the situation perhaps saying that they wanted this to be a fun show match and given him the chance to refuse to play. Ultimately 2011 has been quite a year of growth both in viewership but also in maturity for sc2. I hope that situations like this will be handled better in the future by both the players and organizers. | ||
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CinnaBuns
United States34 Posts
On December 15 2011 13:37 Blondinbengt wrote: Very good post. I don't have a problem with tournament organizers being able to do stuff like this even when no rules were broken, but in regard to the specific situation that occured in this case I do have some concerns. What would have happened if Naniwa had won with his worker rush? As close to throwing a game as a worker rush might be, it is still not the same as instantly typing gg and leaving the game, there's an important distinction to be made here. Using a build/strategy that has an extremely low chance of succeeding does not lower your chances of winning to 0, it might be incredibly close to 0, but it's still not 0. So even if Naniwa did indeed expect to lose with his rush (I haven't seen a statement from him specifically saying this, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption), he did give himself a chance of winning, it might have been 0,0000001%, but it's still there. And this leads me to wonder, what would have happened if Nestea had suffered a mental break the second Naniwas probes reached his base, perhaps out of sheer shock at what he was seeing, causing him to fuck up so horrifically that he lost. What would GOM have done, would they have reacted the same way that they did or would they have accepted what Naniwa did? And just to remind people that this isn't as crazy of a scenario as you might think, remember that Morrow won his second semifinal game in the TL Open #6 against Strelok with a pure and simple worker rush. I think this is an interesting question because if the reason why Naniwa faced such a huge wave of negative reactions was because of that he lost and if the reaction would have been different if he won then where do we draw the line? Should people be allowed to use some extremely unorthodox strategies like a mothership rush or 1 base carriers but not others like worker rushes? If Naniwa won because of the worker rush then I suppose GOM would not have been able to do anything. The distinction between what Naniwa did and an unorthodox strategy is that he did it during a televised event, and his look of disinterest and unwillingness to even touch his keyboard was broadcasted for all to see. The whole of his actions should be taken into consideration and it's quite clear that he had no intention of competing. I suspect you are just playing devil's advocate, but as Doa wrote in his post, Naniwa's actions and intent were quite obvious and there's no reasonable argument to be made to the contrary. So to answer your question, I think it's something that needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis, and the player should be given the benefit of the doubt. In Nani's case, there was nothing to doubt. | ||
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MechaCthulhu
United States136 Posts
On December 15 2011 05:04 DoA wrote: <snip> Naniwa did break the GOMtv's interpretation of their rules of the tournament. Even if he wasn't aware of it or didn't intend to, he did disrespect his opponent and the GSL. If you're going to play in someone's event you have to play by their rules. <snip> Could you point out exactly which rule Naniwa broke, by GOM's interpretation, and where in their rules it spells out what the punishment would be? I assume when you say "play by their rules" you aren't advocating that an organization can make up an arbitrary rule and punishment after the fact to punish behavior they don't like. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
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Papadokus
Germany6 Posts
I can absolutely follow the way of your thinking and I do believe that you are right in the way to interprete what had happend at GOM. Sorry for Naniwa, but he ought to have known that there might be some form of consequence to this kind of "work-ethics".  | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On December 15 2011 13:37 Blondinbengt wrote: Very good post. I don't have a problem with tournament organizers being able to do stuff like this even when no rules were broken, but in regard to the specific situation that occured in this case I do have some concerns. What would have happened if Naniwa had won with his worker rush? As close to throwing a game as a worker rush might be, it is still not the same as instantly typing gg and leaving the game, there's an important distinction to be made here. Using a build/strategy that has an extremely low chance of succeeding does not lower your chances of winning to 0, it might be incredibly close to 0, but it's still not 0. So even if Naniwa did indeed expect to lose with his rush (I haven't seen a statement from him specifically saying this, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption), he did give himself a chance of winning, it might have been 0,0000001%, but it's still there. And this leads me to wonder, what would have happened if Nestea had suffered a mental break the second Naniwas probes reached his base, perhaps out of sheer shock at what he was seeing, causing him to fuck up so horrifically that he lost. What would GOM have done, would they have reacted the same way that they did or would they have accepted what Naniwa did? And just to remind people that this isn't as crazy of a scenario as you might think, remember that Morrow won his second semifinal game in the TL Open #6 against Strelok with a pure and simple worker rush. I think this is an interesting question because if the reason why Naniwa faced such a huge wave of negative reactions was because of that he lost and if the reaction would have been different if he won then where do we draw the line? Should people be allowed to use some extremely unorthodox strategies like a mothership rush or 1 base carriers but not others like worker rushes? He admitted to it. End of discussion. And you don't need a crime caught on video tape when you have overwhelming evidence. Ironically enough, it was on video tape. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
But if this is the kind of licence that GOM provides itself in dishing out punishment, then that's pretty bad for esports. At least in kespa you had to break a rule, GOM is apparently willing to dangle a progamer's career over their head because they feel hurt, and are content with some thinly extrapolated citation to justify it. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
5/5 man | ||
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Kamikiri
United States1319 Posts
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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Cep
Germany41 Posts
but because so many can't do so or refuse to...felt the need to show my appreciation. always thought of you like an easy guy to be with, but tend to be more biased. so again, well done. still don't like your casting | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
Thank you for describing Naniwa's character and for putting Gom's reaction into perspective. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 15 2011 14:26 MechaCthulhu wrote: If I understood Doa correctly, he was arguing in a sense that the punishment for Naniwa was the lesser damage. If Gom had led Naniwa go away with this, the reputation and the spirit of GSL tournaments would suffer.Could you point out exactly which rule Naniwa broke, by GOM's interpretation, and where in their rules it spells out what the punishment would be? I assume when you say "play by their rules" you aren't advocating that an organization can make up an arbitrary rule and punishment after the fact to punish behavior they don't like. | ||
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.Mystic
Canada486 Posts
If you play in someone else's tournament you play by their rules. Considering this was one of the most hyped and prestigious tournament of 2011, his actions were done at the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sure if it was the up and down matches and for some reason he was forced to play a meaningless game, a probe rush would've had no punishment behind it. | ||
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