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Hey guys. Normally I don't get involved in this stuff, but I felt compelled to write something about this. I'd be remiss if I didn't promote my website so please click the link, but as usual I've included the full text here as well since I love TL so much. 
http://www.itsgosu.com/game/sc2/blogs/naniwa-and-gomtv-cause-and-effect-101_127
+ Show Spoiler +Check out Ayesee's take on the issue in his blog as well: http://www.itsgosu.com/game/sc2/blogs/growing-pains-why-naniwa-and-gom-are-both-wrong-but-for-different-reasons_128 I don't normally speak publically about these types of issues. I'm making an exception to my rule on this topic since it's one I feel I've got an insight on that a lot of people don't have. I've worked with GOMtv for most of 2011 and I've also lived with and gotten to know Naniwa for a little while in Korea. The main intent of this piece is to help fans gain some better understanding of the perspective that both sides had on the situation, but I'm sure a bit of my own opinion is going to creep in from time to time. Here we go! I like Naniwa. He's been fun to get to know and I've enjoyed living with him. I'm of the opinion that a lot of his BM is done more in a teasing way than with any sort of malicious intent. Maybe that's just because I felt we got along best when I BMed him back. One day at the GOM house our entire day's worth of interaction amounted to him walking up to my door while I laddered, looking me in the eye and saying "Terran Bastard". Naturally, I responded with "Protoss Crybaby" and he walked away. Neither of us were offended by the other and I think people take what he says too seriously sometimes. That said, I also think in a lot of cases he acts immaturely. He also needs to think more about how people see his actions. he needs to realize that even if he doesn't mean something in a mean way, it's still going to be seen as such because of how he does it. Being a mature adult means considering other people's feelings and viewpoints and Naniwa has a ways to go yet in that regard. I'm convinced that what he did at the Blizzard Cup wasn't intended to insult Nestea himself or the Korean player community, but the context in which Naniwa did what he did had that effect anyway, whether he meant it or not. Historically, Naniwa has been quick to criticize tournaments and his Probe rush was meant only as an "F U" to GOM. He was also dealing with the frustration of losing 3 very winnable games before that and was going into his game vs Nestea knowing that this particular game didn't have an impact on his tournament. What he failed to consider was the impact that the game has on his fans and his professionalism and now he has to deal with the fallout from that. A lot of people have been asking the question of why that game was even played to begin with. Normally GOMtv has skipped games that have no impact on a tournament, so why play this one? To answer that question you need to look at what the Blizzard Cup is intended to be. It's a tournament, but GOMtv also saw it as a celebration of sorts of a year of great Starcraft 2 tournaments around the world. Because of that to a certain extent it was meant to be a show match as much as it was meant to be a serious tournament. In Korea a lot of emphasis is put on showing good games for the fans. You hear the players talk about it all the time. At its core the GSL is a television show as well. It's made to entertain first and foremost. GOMtv planned on all the games being played because of the great matchups it would provide for fans. Who wouldn't want to see Naniwa vs Nestea after what happened at MLG? I don't think anyone would have predicted both of them to go 0-3 by the time they got to their match. In fact I suspect GOM put their match near the end in order to guild a bit of hype during the show as well and keep it as a game people could look forward to. In a normal tournament scenario I doubt the game would have been played, but in this case GOM wanted to give their fans all the good matchups they could. That's why the match was played. Whether it should have been played is entirely different debate and not one that I'll get into here. I personally feel that while it certainly didn't need to be played it wasn't wrong of GOM to do it. There certainly is a bit of culture clash involved though in that decision by GOMtv. Naniwa is playing with the western mentality that largely puts an emphasis on match results while GOM and Nestea are operating on a mindset that puts an emphasis on showing your skill for the fans even if you don't personally gain anything from it. It's up to the reader to decide which you favor. So Naniwa throws his game with a Probe rush. Let's firstly establish that fact that he clearly threw the game. Saying "oh, but working rushing IS a strategy" doesn't work here. Naniwa boxed his workers and A-moved them across the map. If you look at the VOD you can even see him take his hand off the mouse and rest his chin in it after he does it. He didn't micro or do anything even remotely resembling playing the actual game so let's not kid ourselves and say it was a "valid strategy". Be serious, people. He did a long-form version of hitting F10 and then N as soon as the game started and nothing more. How do you think that looks to GOMtv? They invite this guy to come and play and he repays them with this. The big issue here is that I don't think Naniwa realized what a big honor he was being given by being invited to the Blizzard Cup. He certainly didn't deserve it more than anyone else. HuK won an MLG too and has been much more successful in the GSL overall. MarineKing came in 2nd in multiple GSLs throughout the year and won other tournaments. I'm sure I could find more examples. What I'm saying is that there were other people out there that deserved his spot as much as he did, but GOM chose to give it to him. They saw that he was popular with the foreign fans and I happen to personally know that (up until now anyway) the leadership at GOMtv actually liked him. His spot in the Blizzard Cup was a gift and in their eyes he basically threw it back at them by refusing to play his match. Of course they're going to be furious. Unfortunately Naniwa either didn't understand the impact of his decision, or did and forgot about it because of his emotions. GOMtv isn't without blame here either though. Despite how the Korean scene feels about how players should act, they should have also considered how a non-Korean player might feel in Naniwa's situation. So that brings us to the consequences. GOMtv has decided that Naniwa is going to lose his Code S spot for next season. I won't try to play it down by saying things like "He's not banned so it's not that bad!". It's pretty serious. Naniwa did work hard for that spot and it's unfortunate that he lost it. GOM is perfectly justified in their decision though. Naniwa did break the GOMtv's interpretation of their rules of the tournament. Even if he wasn't aware of it or didn't intend to, he did disrespect his opponent and the GSL. If you're going to play in someone's event you have to play by their rules. Simply put; it's their event so my interpretation or your interpretation of those rules doesn't matter. If you want to challenge those rules you need to be aware of the right time and the right place to do that. It was fine for Naniwa to be upset about having to play what was in his mind a meaningless game. It was not fine with GOMtv, however, in the way he expressed his unhappiness. Despite this punishment, I doubt that this will be the last we see of Naniwa in the GSL. To me he seems way to dedicated to improving and staying in Korea to leave after this. Clearly GOM doesn't want to just get rid of him completely either although he may find it difficult to stay in a Korean pro-gaming house for a while. I'm sure the Startale coach is taking some flak for having him there. I'd imagine GOMtv would even let him stay in the GOM house if he wanted to remain in Korea and needed a place to crash. I grew up with the motto "It's not whether you win or lose. It's how you play the game." I spent a lot of my time as a kid playing both team and individual sports and I do know how Naniwa feels. I don't need to know it in the context of Starcraft to relate to it and neither do you. We've all been in situations in a sports competition or elsewhere in life where we were expected to do things we didn't want to do for other people. Doing those things without letting our emotions take over and cause us to stop thinking rationally is part of being a responsible adult. Unfortunately what Naniwa did was selfish and immature. You might think it seems cool or something to be a rebel and "stick it to the man" or whatever, but in the end you accomplish a lot more of your goals in life by being nice working with people than against them. That's not my opinion. That's just fact. If Naniwa would have played the game and then spoke with GOMtv afterwards about it we'd have gotten to see a possibly great game and we'd still have Naniwa in Code S. A lot of times when I told people I was living with Naniwa the common response was: "Oh man. He's a jerk. That must suck." I always defended Naniwa and told them that I thought he'd begun to mature a lot since coming to Korea and I liked living with him. I really felt that way too so it's a bummer to see this happen. Ultimately this should be a learning experience for both sides. GOMtv has had a habit for quite a while of not being as considerate towards the feelings of foreigners as they should and hopefully this will show them that there are real consequences to blindly assuming everyone will immediately assimilate to the Korean mode of thinking. On the flip side I hope Naniwa takes a hard look at how little he considers the feelings of others and realizes that it's caused problems for him in the past and it will continue to do so until he grows up a bit. If both the leadership of event organizations and the players consider each other's views than there's no reason why we can't have a lot of great tournaments in the future. Thanks for reading and I encourage both Naniwa and GOMtv to contact me if there's anything they want to add to this. ...to be crit by a wall of text for an amount of damage a stimmed marine would be afraid of.
   
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On the Internet, everyone is going to try to illuminate their own interpretations and sense of justice over everyone else's, but in the end it's GOM's house, GOM's rules, and it's not completely unjustified that they removed Naniwa's Code S seed. People can argue all they want about what true ESPORTS justice is, but taking the cultural context in which the decision was made, you really can't undo the decision.
Nice article DoA, I obviously agree with it a lot.
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Good read. I really have nothing else to say, good read. 5/5
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I'm super glad that all of the professional casters like you and show hosts have been super reasonable and rational about this whole debacle. You guys are really the ones who lift StarCraft 2 above the hordes of vocal idiots who give their opinions without thinking things through at all.
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Good read. Very reasonable.
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United States8476 Posts
Well said. It's the most mature post anyone has said about the issue and I wholeheartedly agree with it.
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Nice write up, I agree with what you have said totally. It has to be said as well that even his own team was hyping the game on twitter prior to it being played, in that regard he let his team down severely as well.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xkSWK.png)
I really wish I could read more posts like yours and less kids raging saying things like "GG Gomtv I wont be buying a pass" or having the audacity to publicly declare that they want their money back for a pass that they have already bought.
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Really nice explanation of everything from a perspective most people would not know. Thanks for sharing this.
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This is one of the first articles I actually agree with 100%. Who else would know Naniwa better than someone who lives with him? Excellent excellent read, thank you.
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I generally agree with you. This "wakeup call" to act professional in order to promote and strengthen the picture of e-sports has been long overdue in my opinion. It is of course unfortunate for Naniwa to be the scapegoat here, and i hope he can learn from it - playing strength is not everything. I am however very irritated that this message is made almost meaningless by inviting Idra instead - a player who behaves correctly to the tournament hoster, but who as well has no intent whatsoever to play for the fans or respect his opponents.
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DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy.
Edit: and just to be sure, of course what Naniwa did was not professional but once again, you have to see this from a company's point of view. You do not react like GOM reacted. Totally unprofessional.
User was banned for this post.
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On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy.
I don't even know what to say to this. Did you even read the full blog?
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GREAT post Doa - I had gotten tired of reading rage posts from either side so this really comes as a breath of fresh air.
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On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy.
Edit: and just to be sure, of course what Naniwa did was not professional but once again, you have to see this from a company's point of view. You do not react like GOM reacted. Totally unprofessional.
I'm pretty sure he knows the companies (GOM's) point of view. They probably explained their point of view personally to him as he works for them. A general rule of thumb is not to dismiss a well written argument or explanation provided by a party which has accomplished more than you in the topic at hand.
Now, I don't know you so you might be extremely accomplished or knowledgable on GSL's actions and doings but.... yeah.
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Great post - very agreeable and well thought out. It's good to have some insight from someone who spends time with him, too.
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Thanks Doa
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Thats most likely the best statement from someone not directly involved in the situation, and I agree with it completely.
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They should sit down, Gom should offer him his seed back on the grounds that he publicly apologizes for throwing such an important game (important to Gom that is, not to the tournament) and that he wont do that sort of thing in the future. If he does then give him his seed back. This way both sides have an option to save face, look professional, and also make all sides relatively happy with the outcome.
To just kick him from the Code S and to post about it in an insulting manner just makes Gom look about as professional as Nani to me. Ive been a long time purchaser of GSL but I'm honestly boycotting this season because as others have said, this just comes across as emotional and arbitrary. Obviously you feel it is within the rules and Gom isn't being unprofessional Doa and I respect that view, I just don't share it.
The opportunity to work this out rather than just cut him from the Code S seems the least useful action to take in my opinion. There are a lot of other ways to go about this and Gom chose the least of those options.
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On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy.
Edit: and just to be sure, of course what Naniwa did was not professional but once again, you have to see this from a company's point of view. You do not react like GOM reacted. Totally unprofessional.
I just read all your posts and every single one of them is either inflammatory, incoherent, or both; it usually takes a thread a good few pages after one of your posts to get back on track to intelligible discussion.
Nice blog DoA. I appreciate your thoughts especially given your close relationship with both parties involved.
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Sick blog DoA. Do you have any plans to return to korean?
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Agree with everything except for this:
"GOMtv isn't without blame here either though. Despite how the Korean scene feels about how players should act, they should have also considered how a non-Korean player might feel in Naniwa's situation."
He acted like a child, so he is being punished like a child. Timeout sucks, but people need to be held accountable for their actions.
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On December 15 2011 05:45 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you even read the full blog?
I am gonna re-post what I wrote quoting Liquid-Tyler in another discussion. He said that both GOMTV and Naniwa acted in the wrong way, and I agree, but there is a big difference.
Naniwa is an idividual while GOMTV is a company that should ALWAYS act correctly and professionally. This is why it is extremely disappointing seeing such a reaction from GOMTV; they reacted like an emotional individual (exactly like Naniwa during that game) while they should be the ones setting the bar for quality and great example. On the top of that because they applied a rule this way, they created a double standard by not applying it in other cases prior to this one, which makes them loose credibility as an institution and as an eSPORTS medium. GOMTV should rethink their action and admit they over reacted.
Doa's blog post adds absolutely nothing to this current "drama", it actually just shows how he does not get a grasp of what to say in this kind of situation This is an issue that goes beyond Naniwa's personality, the problem here is not Naniwa not playing the game, it is GOM's reaction what is disturbing, therefore making a post about Naniwa's character and immaturity is totally irrelevant. I am actually surprised by how many people do not get a clue of what is the main issue here. Naniwa acted like an immature kid and we can all clearly realize that without having DoA spending several lines talking about it. I am done spending my time in these forums they are full of people with too much emotions and lack of rationality.
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On December 15 2011 06:38 0800 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:45 Dodgin wrote:On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you even read the full blog? I am gonna re-post what I wrote quoting Liquid-Tyler in another discussion. He said that both GOMTV and Naniwa acted in the wrong way, and I agree, but there is a big difference. Naniwa is an idividual while GOMTV is a company that should ALWAYS act correctly and professionally. This is why it is extremely disappointing seeing such a reaction from GOMTV; they reacted like an emotional individual (exactly like Naniwa during that game) while they should be the ones setting the bar for quality and great example. On the top of that because they applied a rule this way, they created a double standard by not applying it in other cases prior to this one, which makes them loose credibility as an institution and as an eSPORTS medium. GOMTV should rethink their action and admit they over reacted. Doa's blog post adds absolutely nothing to this current "drama", it actually just shows how he does not get a grasp of what to say in this kind of situation This is an issue that goes beyond Naniwa's personality, the problem here is not Naniwa not playing the game, it is GOM's reaction what is disturbing, therefore making a post about Naniwa's character and immaturity is totally irrelevant. I am actually surprised by how many people do not get a clue of what is the main issue here. Naniwa acted like an immature kid and we can all clearly realize that without having DoA spending several lines talking about it. I am done spending my time in these forums they are full of people with too much emotions and lack of rationality. Yes, be done spending time on these forums with an account you clearly created to say this because apparently you were too afraid to on your main account. Also you haven't actually made an argument in either of your posts, you've just made points without justification lol.
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On December 15 2011 06:50 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:38 0800 wrote:On December 15 2011 05:45 Dodgin wrote:On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you even read the full blog? I am gonna re-post what I wrote quoting Liquid-Tyler in another discussion. He said that both GOMTV and Naniwa acted in the wrong way, and I agree, but there is a big difference. Naniwa is an idividual while GOMTV is a company that should ALWAYS act correctly and professionally. This is why it is extremely disappointing seeing such a reaction from GOMTV; they reacted like an emotional individual (exactly like Naniwa during that game) while they should be the ones setting the bar for quality and great example. On the top of that because they applied a rule this way, they created a double standard by not applying it in other cases prior to this one, which makes them loose credibility as an institution and as an eSPORTS medium. GOMTV should rethink their action and admit they over reacted. Doa's blog post adds absolutely nothing to this current "drama", it actually just shows how he does not get a grasp of what to say in this kind of situation This is an issue that goes beyond Naniwa's personality, the problem here is not Naniwa not playing the game, it is GOM's reaction what is disturbing, therefore making a post about Naniwa's character and immaturity is totally irrelevant. I am actually surprised by how many people do not get a clue of what is the main issue here. Naniwa acted like an immature kid and we can all clearly realize that without having DoA spending several lines talking about it. I am done spending my time in these forums they are full of people with too much emotions and lack of rationality. Yes, be done spending time on these forums with an account you clearly created to say this because apparently you were too afraid to on your main account. Also you haven't actually made an argument in either of your posts, you've just made points without justification lol.
This is my main account and I just created to post on this matter. I usually just lurk around TL but this action by GOM really upset me and because I have been supporting them since season 1 buying premium tickets I think I have the right to express my concerns regarding this issue. I am not even a Naniwa fan, but people are dumbing this down to fanboys and anti-naniwa people. I made my point if you fail to see it, not my problem. If you think what GOM has done is right explain your point rather than posting lol several times in few sentences.
Edit: Tyler is a really smart guy and you can tell every time he speaks on SOTG, so I am also gonna paste his quote right here.
On December 15 2011 02:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: i lost three respect points for gomtv for kicking naniwa
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Great post DOA! If only it would convince half of the conspiracy theorist fanboys to calm down it would be so worth it.
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DOA, when did you become such a wise Confucian sage.
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In the word of Vince Lombardi; "Winning isn’t everything; it’s the only thing."
Eastern cultures have to start realizing this. It transcends sports having deep roots and applications in the real world.
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On December 15 2011 06:38 0800 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:45 Dodgin wrote:On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you even read the full blog? I am gonna re-post what I wrote quoting Liquid-Tyler in another discussion. He said that both GOMTV and Naniwa acted in the wrong way, and I agree, but there is a big difference. Naniwa is an idividual while GOMTV is a company that should ALWAYS act correctly and professionally. This is why it is extremely disappointing seeing such a reaction from GOMTV; they reacted like an emotional individual (exactly like Naniwa during that game) while they should be the ones setting the bar for quality and great example. On the top of that because they applied a rule this way, they created a double standard by not applying it in other cases prior to this one, which makes them loose credibility as an institution and as an eSPORTS medium. GOMTV should rethink their action and admit they over reacted. Doa's blog post adds absolutely nothing to this current "drama", it actually just shows how he does not get a grasp of what to say in this kind of situation This is an issue that goes beyond Naniwa's personality, the problem here is not Naniwa not playing the game, it is GOM's reaction what is disturbing, therefore making a post about Naniwa's character and immaturity is totally irrelevant. I am actually surprised by how many people do not get a clue of what is the main issue here. Naniwa acted like an immature kid and we can all clearly realize that without having DoA spending several lines talking about it. I am done spending my time in these forums they are full of people with too much emotions and lack of rationality. BYE! Hope the DOAr hits you on the way out!
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Singapore147 Posts
On December 15 2011 06:57 0800 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:50 Redmark wrote:On December 15 2011 06:38 0800 wrote:On December 15 2011 05:45 Dodgin wrote:On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you even read the full blog? I am gonna re-post what I wrote quoting Liquid-Tyler in another discussion. He said that both GOMTV and Naniwa acted in the wrong way, and I agree, but there is a big difference. Naniwa is an idividual while GOMTV is a company that should ALWAYS act correctly and professionally. This is why it is extremely disappointing seeing such a reaction from GOMTV; they reacted like an emotional individual (exactly like Naniwa during that game) while they should be the ones setting the bar for quality and great example. On the top of that because they applied a rule this way, they created a double standard by not applying it in other cases prior to this one, which makes them loose credibility as an institution and as an eSPORTS medium. GOMTV should rethink their action and admit they over reacted. Doa's blog post adds absolutely nothing to this current "drama", it actually just shows how he does not get a grasp of what to say in this kind of situation This is an issue that goes beyond Naniwa's personality, the problem here is not Naniwa not playing the game, it is GOM's reaction what is disturbing, therefore making a post about Naniwa's character and immaturity is totally irrelevant. I am actually surprised by how many people do not get a clue of what is the main issue here. Naniwa acted like an immature kid and we can all clearly realize that without having DoA spending several lines talking about it. I am done spending my time in these forums they are full of people with too much emotions and lack of rationality. Yes, be done spending time on these forums with an account you clearly created to say this because apparently you were too afraid to on your main account. Also you haven't actually made an argument in either of your posts, you've just made points without justification lol. This is my main account and I just created to post on this matter. I usually just lurk around TL but this action by GOM really upset me and because I have been supporting them since season 1 buying premium tickets I think I have the right to express my concerns regarding this issue. I am not even a Naniwa fan, but people are dumbing this down to fanboys and anti-naniwa people. I made my point if you fail to see it, not my problem. If you think what GOM has done is right explain your point rather than posting lol several times in few sentences.
what GOM did is not wrong. why is their reaction disturbing? naniwa made a mistake. as the GOM reply says, he didn't cheat, but he was disrespectful and what he did was against the spirit of competition. thus, he was punished for it. also, the code S seed wasn't his by right. as they had already stated, he was just under strong consideration for it, but since he was disrespectful, they decided against selecting him as a code S invitation.
could GOM be more compassionate? yes. do they HAVE to be more compassionate? no.
this is where people like you and liquidtyler are wrong. it is perfectly within their purview, and while you may call for compassion, myself and many others think that enforcing the rules sets a better precedent.
edit: oh and fantastic post doa!
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On December 15 2011 06:59 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:38 0800 wrote:On December 15 2011 05:45 Dodgin wrote:On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you even read the full blog? I am gonna re-post what I wrote quoting Liquid-Tyler in another discussion. He said that both GOMTV and Naniwa acted in the wrong way, and I agree, but there is a big difference. Naniwa is an idividual while GOMTV is a company that should ALWAYS act correctly and professionally. This is why it is extremely disappointing seeing such a reaction from GOMTV; they reacted like an emotional individual (exactly like Naniwa during that game) while they should be the ones setting the bar for quality and great example. On the top of that because they applied a rule this way, they created a double standard by not applying it in other cases prior to this one, which makes them loose credibility as an institution and as an eSPORTS medium. GOMTV should rethink their action and admit they over reacted. Doa's blog post adds absolutely nothing to this current "drama", it actually just shows how he does not get a grasp of what to say in this kind of situation This is an issue that goes beyond Naniwa's personality, the problem here is not Naniwa not playing the game, it is GOM's reaction what is disturbing, therefore making a post about Naniwa's character and immaturity is totally irrelevant. I am actually surprised by how many people do not get a clue of what is the main issue here. Naniwa acted like an immature kid and we can all clearly realize that without having DoA spending several lines talking about it. I am done spending my time in these forums they are full of people with too much emotions and lack of rationality. BYE! Hope the DOAr hits you on the way out! 
Double standard? If a Korean player were to do what Naniwa did, he'd be immediately kicked off of his team and banned from GSL for atleast a season. We've seen this from players such as Coca and Byun. GOM has never been biased against foreign players. On the contrary, they've been widely accepting of them and, more recently, have invited Sen and Idra to Code S without having them play any Up and Down matches. This shows preferential treatment to foreigners more than anything.
GOM decided to remove the Code S seed, which they have the right to do. They could've banned him as they would any Korean player that would have done the same thing, but they chose to be less harsh and allow him to try again. Your argument that GOM acted as an "emotional individual" is baseless because they're defending the quality of their production. If they did nothing at all, what's to stop anyone from disrespecting their tournaments? If anything, this punishment helps maintain the "bar for quality" that you say GOM lacks because they're making sure players show respect for their viewers, production, tournaments, and employees.
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Damn this i really well written. It certainly provided me with closure of feeling cheated out of a code S Naniwa :D
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I agree with a lot of what you've said DoA, I hope people who are bashing gom read this blog. 5/5, good to hear from you again
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such a great post, can't help but agree and wish i can express my thoughts as well as you just did
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On December 15 2011 06:57 0800 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:50 Redmark wrote:On December 15 2011 06:38 0800 wrote:On December 15 2011 05:45 Dodgin wrote:On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you even read the full blog? I am gonna re-post what I wrote quoting Liquid-Tyler in another discussion. He said that both GOMTV and Naniwa acted in the wrong way, and I agree, but there is a big difference. Naniwa is an idividual while GOMTV is a company that should ALWAYS act correctly and professionally. This is why it is extremely disappointing seeing such a reaction from GOMTV; they reacted like an emotional individual (exactly like Naniwa during that game) while they should be the ones setting the bar for quality and great example. On the top of that because they applied a rule this way, they created a double standard by not applying it in other cases prior to this one, which makes them loose credibility as an institution and as an eSPORTS medium. GOMTV should rethink their action and admit they over reacted. Doa's blog post adds absolutely nothing to this current "drama", it actually just shows how he does not get a grasp of what to say in this kind of situation This is an issue that goes beyond Naniwa's personality, the problem here is not Naniwa not playing the game, it is GOM's reaction what is disturbing, therefore making a post about Naniwa's character and immaturity is totally irrelevant. I am actually surprised by how many people do not get a clue of what is the main issue here. Naniwa acted like an immature kid and we can all clearly realize that without having DoA spending several lines talking about it. I am done spending my time in these forums they are full of people with too much emotions and lack of rationality. Yes, be done spending time on these forums with an account you clearly created to say this because apparently you were too afraid to on your main account. Also you haven't actually made an argument in either of your posts, you've just made points without justification lol. This is my main account and I just created to post on this matter. I usually just lurk around TL but this action by GOM really upset me and because I have been supporting them since season 1 buying premium tickets I think I have the right to express my concerns regarding this issue. I am not even a Naniwa fan, but people are dumbing this down to fanboys and anti-naniwa people. I made my point if you fail to see it, not my problem. If you think what GOM has done is right explain your point rather than posting lol several times in few sentences. Edit: Tyler is a really smart guy and you can tell every time he speaks on SOTG, so I am also gonna paste his quote right here. On December 15 2011 02:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: i lost three respect points for gomtv for kicking naniwa You're right, Tyler is smart, but it doesn't mean everything he says is correct.
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really well explained. Nice job DoA I think this explains things very reasonably.
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good read, doa - I agree with you
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On December 15 2011 06:57 0800 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:50 Redmark wrote:On December 15 2011 06:38 0800 wrote:On December 15 2011 05:45 Dodgin wrote:On December 15 2011 05:44 0800 wrote: DoA i like you and your casting, but this blog post shows no logical thinking on your side. There is no point in this blog post. Talking about Naniwa's character and mentioning a lot of the stuff you mentioned is absolutely irrelevant.
I think a lot of people are missing the main issue here which is caused by GOM's arbitrary decision. They acted as an emotional individual rather than a professional company and they did apply a double standard, and that cannot be accepted in a serious professional environment. This is why a lot of people are disappointed by GOM, talking about Naniwa's personal behavior is totally irrelevant and shows that you as well, are completely lacking the main point here I am sorry buddy. I don't even know what to say to this. Did you even read the full blog? I am gonna re-post what I wrote quoting Liquid-Tyler in another discussion. He said that both GOMTV and Naniwa acted in the wrong way, and I agree, but there is a big difference. Naniwa is an idividual while GOMTV is a company that should ALWAYS act correctly and professionally. This is why it is extremely disappointing seeing such a reaction from GOMTV; they reacted like an emotional individual (exactly like Naniwa during that game) while they should be the ones setting the bar for quality and great example. On the top of that because they applied a rule this way, they created a double standard by not applying it in other cases prior to this one, which makes them loose credibility as an institution and as an eSPORTS medium. GOMTV should rethink their action and admit they over reacted. Doa's blog post adds absolutely nothing to this current "drama", it actually just shows how he does not get a grasp of what to say in this kind of situation This is an issue that goes beyond Naniwa's personality, the problem here is not Naniwa not playing the game, it is GOM's reaction what is disturbing, therefore making a post about Naniwa's character and immaturity is totally irrelevant. I am actually surprised by how many people do not get a clue of what is the main issue here. Naniwa acted like an immature kid and we can all clearly realize that without having DoA spending several lines talking about it. I am done spending my time in these forums they are full of people with too much emotions and lack of rationality. Yes, be done spending time on these forums with an account you clearly created to say this because apparently you were too afraid to on your main account. Also you haven't actually made an argument in either of your posts, you've just made points without justification lol. This is my main account and I just created to post on this matter. I usually just lurk around TL but this action by GOM really upset me and because I have been supporting them since season 1 buying premium tickets I think I have the right to express my concerns regarding this issue. I am not even a Naniwa fan, but people are dumbing this down to fanboys and anti-naniwa people. I made my point if you fail to see it, not my problem. If you think what GOM has done is right explain your point rather than posting lol several times in few sentences. Edit: Tyler is a really smart guy and you can tell every time he speaks on SOTG, so I am also gonna paste his quote right here. On December 15 2011 02:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote: i lost three respect points for gomtv for kicking naniwa Tyler says a lot of stuff that is completely wrong, even though he's a smart guy. There was that one rant he started on SoTG, about how other event organizers (EG Master's Cup) should not be posting stuff on Team Liquid in a professional manner since this is just a forum. Instead they should be advertising their tournament on their own site or something like that. Don't remember the episode, but it was a pretty terrible argument either way.
Also, I don't see how you can say there's a double-standard here. A Korean player would've been kicked off his team, and probably banned from GSL completely if he pulled shit like this.
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Great post overall, DoA, but I have one question about this point that you made:
On December 15 2011 05:04 DoA wrote: The big issue here is that I don't think Naniwa realized what a big honor he was being given by being invited to the Blizzard Cup. He certainly didn't deserve it more than anyone else. HuK won an MLG too and has been much more successful in the GSL overall. MarineKing came in 2nd in multiple GSLs throughout the year and won other tournaments. I'm sure I could find more examples. What I'm saying is that there were other people out there that deserved his spot as much as he did, but GOM chose to give it to him.
Wasn't it clearly defined before the Blizzard Cup started what the selection criteria were going to be (except for the selection criteria in the case of MVP's multiple qualifications)? It was lined up that #1 and 2 at MLG providence were going to go, so while GOM could have chosen not to give him the spot, he did in fact earn it.
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Great insights! Thanks for sharing. It is definitely rare to have a third-person perspective from someone who knows NaNi and GOM really well.
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On December 15 2011 08:53 bludragen88 wrote:Great post overall, DoA, but I have one question about this point that you made: Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:04 DoA wrote: The big issue here is that I don't think Naniwa realized what a big honor he was being given by being invited to the Blizzard Cup. He certainly didn't deserve it more than anyone else. HuK won an MLG too and has been much more successful in the GSL overall. MarineKing came in 2nd in multiple GSLs throughout the year and won other tournaments. I'm sure I could find more examples. What I'm saying is that there were other people out there that deserved his spot as much as he did, but GOM chose to give it to him. Wasn't it clearly defined before the Blizzard Cup started what the selection criteria were going to be (except for the selection criteria in the case of MVP's multiple qualifications)? It was lined up that #1 and 2 at MLG providence were going to go, so while GOM could have chosen not to give him the spot, he did in fact earn it.
I was under the impression one of MVP's extra seeds was given to Naniwa. Looks like it was Polt who got it instead. So yes, that paragraph will be edited. Thanks for the heads up.
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Good read.
Its good that casters are speaking their mind and not silently hiding away from thiese things
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If GOM want to overreact to Nani worker rushing by taking away his code S spot Sweeden could overreact back and declare war on korea. That is about as harsh a reaction imo I thought it was funny how much GOM overeacted until I thought about how hard Nani worked for that code S spot. I know what tournament i will be boycotting next year. Goodbye GOMtv ticket.
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On December 15 2011 09:06 paddyz wrote: If GOM want to overreact to Nani worker rushing by taking away his code S spot Sweeden could overreact back and declare war on korea. That is about as harsh a reaction imo I thought it was funny how much GOM overeacted until I thought about how hard Nani worked for that code S spot. I know what tournament i will be boycotting next year. Goodbye GOMtv ticket. Yeah and if the Minnesota Timberswolves or the Toronto Raptors decided not to show up to their last game of the season since the game wouldn't matter, do you think the commissioner of the NBA would be like: "It's the NBA's fault for having games that 'do not matter' included in the schedule and be televised." No he would not, everyone on each of those teams would be fined or suspended from a number of games the following season. It is well understood in sports that you may have to and are obligated to play games that do not matter... Naniwa did not do that... Thus, GOM is justified in doing whatever they want with respect to Naniwa's involvement in their tournament. There are many other players that would have been just as deserving as Naniwa to play in the Blizzard Cup (e.g. Bomber, Puma, etc)... but GOM gave that spot to Naniwa. And what did Naniwa do? He disrespected the spot that was given to him by throwing away a game because he couldn't get over a few close games that he had played a little while ago. GOM's punishment of revoking his Code S spot is completely justified and is not an overreaction by any means.
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On December 15 2011 09:06 paddyz wrote: If GOM want to overreact to Nani worker rushing by taking away his code S spot Sweeden could overreact back and declare war on korea. That is about as harsh a reaction imo I thought it was funny how much GOM overeacted until I thought about how hard Nani worked for that code S spot. I know what tournament i will be boycotting next year. Goodbye GOMtv ticket. LOLOLOL
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
Awesome article. DoA's my man!
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why can't Naniwa go through open brackets like everyone else? Why does he 'deserve' a code S spot? why not code A? oh because gom is being extra nice and trying to help the foreigners out, which ultimately helps them out. Doa, I really really liked this line.
'You might think it seems cool or something to be a rebel and "stick it to the man" or whatever, but in the end you accomplish a lot more of your goals in life by being nice working with people than against them. That's not my opinion. That's just fact.'
hopefully a lot of these immature kids and adults will read this and learn and mature from it.
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On December 15 2011 09:58 Taug wrote: why can't Naniwa go through open brackets like everyone else? Why does he 'deserve' a code S spot? why not code A? oh because gom is being extra nice and trying to help the foreigners out, which ultimately helps them out. Doa, I really really liked this line.
You like it but it's false, GOM hasn't been "nice". Naniwa earned his spot and wasn't invited. In fact, he's the first foreigner to do so, every other player that won this spot was korean.
Good article DOA, but your reasoning includes "GOM decided to invite Naniwa", so I think it's flawed. GOm didn't decide anything, they gave a list of tournament from which winners would gain a spot in the blizzcup. Naniwa won one of those tournament. Naniwa won his spot, and GOM certainly not "decided to invite him". Same for his code S spot, like his Blizzcup spot, were the very first time since open season that a foreigner EARNED a spot in the GSL and was not invited. Unless you say MC and MMA were "invited" in code S too ?
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On December 15 2011 09:06 paddyz wrote: If GOM want to overreact to Nani worker rushing by taking away his code S spot Sweeden could overreact back and declare war on korea. That is about as harsh a reaction imo I thought it was funny how much GOM overeacted until I thought about how hard Nani worked for that code S spot. I know what tournament i will be boycotting next year. Goodbye GOMtv ticket.
eRRRmmm...I guess cutting off your nose to spite your face FTW
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Best blog ever. Bravo. <3
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Nice post DoA, even though I want NaNi back in Code S.
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Hi, I have a question. I read in another thread [amongst the many, many threads on this issue] that Nanina did not LOSE the spot. GOM just decided not to offer it to him anymore.
I'd like this clarified. Because if he had no vested right to it, just an expectation, then the whole thing is moot, and a lot of this discussion is just misdirected anger.
I don't know what to believe. I wish I knew Korean.
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Really good write up. I think one of the things that should be limelighted is that Korean progamers want to win first and foremost, but even if they're playing meaningless matches, they'll still put on a good show. I guess Naniwa and a lot of foreign fans that are defending Naniwa don't get that.
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Very nice blog. I completely agree with everything that you said. Thanks for the insights.
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Perfect piece. Thanks DOA. Didn't know you were such a talented writer.
It was great that you told both sides of the story.
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Very well written, I appreciate your insight into this issue.
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On December 15 2011 06:16 Sluggy wrote: Agree with everything except for this:
"GOMtv isn't without blame here either though. Despite how the Korean scene feels about how players should act, they should have also considered how a non-Korean player might feel in Naniwa's situation."
He acted like a child, so he is being punished like a child. Timeout sucks, but people need to be held accountable for their actions. My point exactly. I felt what he did isn't right in my mind and that it was kind of disgraceful and shouldn't be ignored.
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Great post, even if I guess I'm a bit more dissapointed of GOMtv's way of dealing with this than you are.
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On December 15 2011 10:03 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 09:58 Taug wrote: why can't Naniwa go through open brackets like everyone else? Why does he 'deserve' a code S spot? why not code A? oh because gom is being extra nice and trying to help the foreigners out, which ultimately helps them out. Doa, I really really liked this line.
You like it but it's false, GOM hasn't been "nice". Naniwa earned his spot and wasn't invited. In fact, he's the first foreigner to do so, every other player that won this spot was korean. Good article DOA, but your reasoning includes "GOM decided to invite Naniwa", so I think it's flawed. GOm didn't decide anything, they gave a list of tournament from which winners would gain a spot in the blizzcup. Naniwa won one of those tournament. Naniwa won his spot, and GOM certainly not "decided to invite him". Same for his code S spot, like his Blizzcup spot, were the very first time since open season that a foreigner EARNED a spot in the GSL and was not invited. Unless you say MC and MMA were "invited" in code S too ? I think the point is that GOM has been nice to foreigners so there is no reason to bring in the race card. Naniwa got 3x code A spots, and now foreigners are being seeded directly into the up and downs without having to play code A, and 0 foreigners made it to the up and downs after playing the ro48. They also gave 2 spots to foreigners.
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Wow Doa you just gained a fan. Maybe some of the teens and kids reading this will learn a little bit about maturity, responsibility, and professionalism from reading your post.
The only point I disagree with is that GOM did anything wrong at all. The tournament format was intended to show as many matchups as possible. As a professional, Naniwa had a responsibility to play it out. It's not "just a game" anymore when sponsors and fans are paying to watch you perform. If someone can't handle the additional responsibility of being a professional, then don't be a pro-gamer.
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gj DoA.
Sadly this wont change peoples minds. They will still be whining and blaming GOM.
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Very very well written ^^
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Their tournament does not fly imo. Take out the players people wanna see and you have a shitty tournament, maybe I'm too used to Tennis where the players have a say in things.
Very good blog though 5/5.
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On December 15 2011 13:07 CEPEHDREI wrote: gj DoA.
Sadly this wont change peoples minds. They will still be whining and blaming GOM. If they can still blame GOM at this point and say they won't watch, I'll be happy because then LR threads will be that much better without fanboys.
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On December 15 2011 06:59 aTiMaGikL wrote: In the word of Vince Lombardi; "Winning isn’t everything; it’s the only thing."
Eastern cultures have to start realizing this. It transcends sports having deep roots and applications in the real world.
Are you serious? Vince Lombardi is rolling over in his grave from your failure to understand his quote.
Do you know what the Packers' record was during his first year as coach? 1-10-1.
Do you know what the Packers didn't do? They didn't just trot onto the field and let the game end via delay of game penalties and 10 second runoffs.
They tried, and they failed, and they got better. They were beholden to their fans (who were pretty pissed) to try to be competitive even as they were getting trounced. Btw, Lombardi himself has said that what he meant was "Winning isn't everything. The will to win is the only thing."
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Very good post.
I don't have a problem with tournament organizers being able to do stuff like this even when no rules were broken, but in regard to the specific situation that occured in this case I do have some concerns.
What would have happened if Naniwa had won with his worker rush?
As close to throwing a game as a worker rush might be, it is still not the same as instantly typing gg and leaving the game, there's an important distinction to be made here. Using a build/strategy that has an extremely low chance of succeeding does not lower your chances of winning to 0, it might be incredibly close to 0, but it's still not 0. So even if Naniwa did indeed expect to lose with his rush (I haven't seen a statement from him specifically saying this, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption), he did give himself a chance of winning, it might have been 0,0000001%, but it's still there. And this leads me to wonder, what would have happened if Nestea had suffered a mental break the second Naniwas probes reached his base, perhaps out of sheer shock at what he was seeing, causing him to fuck up so horrifically that he lost. What would GOM have done, would they have reacted the same way that they did or would they have accepted what Naniwa did?
And just to remind people that this isn't as crazy of a scenario as you might think, remember that Morrow won his second semifinal game in the TL Open #6 against Strelok with a pure and simple worker rush.
I think this is an interesting question because if the reason why Naniwa faced such a huge wave of negative reactions was because of that he lost and if the reaction would have been different if he won then where do we draw the line? Should people be allowed to use some extremely unorthodox strategies like a mothership rush or 1 base carriers but not others like worker rushes?
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Great post! Initially I was disappointed with GomTV's decision and I still feel it was too harsh. However what Naniwa did while technically not against the rules wasn't very smart or respectful of his fans or the tournament host. He basically placed GomTV in a lose-lose scenario. I hope that ultimately both Naniwa and GomTV will learn from this situation.
As close to throwing a game as a worker rush might be, it is still not the same as instantly typing gg and leaving the game, there's an important distinction to be made here. Using a build/strategy that has an extremely low chance of succeeding does not lower your chances of winning to 0, it might be incredibly close to 0, but it's still not 0. So even if Naniwa did indeed expect to lose with his rush (I haven't seen a statement from him specifically saying this, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption), he did give himself a chance of winning, it might have been 0,0000001%, but it's still there.
I agree with this that he did not technically break any rules but it is pretty much impossible to win even with micro unless Nestea takes his hands off the keyboard aswell. But he should have known how it would look. Also I think that GomTV staff should have talked to Naniwa before the match and discussed the situation perhaps saying that they wanted this to be a fun show match and given him the chance to refuse to play.
Ultimately 2011 has been quite a year of growth both in viewership but also in maturity for sc2. I hope that situations like this will be handled better in the future by both the players and organizers.
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On December 15 2011 13:37 Blondinbengt wrote: Very good post.
I don't have a problem with tournament organizers being able to do stuff like this even when no rules were broken, but in regard to the specific situation that occured in this case I do have some concerns.
What would have happened if Naniwa had won with his worker rush?
As close to throwing a game as a worker rush might be, it is still not the same as instantly typing gg and leaving the game, there's an important distinction to be made here. Using a build/strategy that has an extremely low chance of succeeding does not lower your chances of winning to 0, it might be incredibly close to 0, but it's still not 0. So even if Naniwa did indeed expect to lose with his rush (I haven't seen a statement from him specifically saying this, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption), he did give himself a chance of winning, it might have been 0,0000001%, but it's still there. And this leads me to wonder, what would have happened if Nestea had suffered a mental break the second Naniwas probes reached his base, perhaps out of sheer shock at what he was seeing, causing him to fuck up so horrifically that he lost. What would GOM have done, would they have reacted the same way that they did or would they have accepted what Naniwa did?
And just to remind people that this isn't as crazy of a scenario as you might think, remember that Morrow won his second semifinal game in the TL Open #6 against Strelok with a pure and simple worker rush.
I think this is an interesting question because if the reason why Naniwa faced such a huge wave of negative reactions was because of that he lost and if the reaction would have been different if he won then where do we draw the line? Should people be allowed to use some extremely unorthodox strategies like a mothership rush or 1 base carriers but not others like worker rushes?
If Naniwa won because of the worker rush then I suppose GOM would not have been able to do anything.
The distinction between what Naniwa did and an unorthodox strategy is that he did it during a televised event, and his look of disinterest and unwillingness to even touch his keyboard was broadcasted for all to see. The whole of his actions should be taken into consideration and it's quite clear that he had no intention of competing.
I suspect you are just playing devil's advocate, but as Doa wrote in his post, Naniwa's actions and intent were quite obvious and there's no reasonable argument to be made to the contrary.
So to answer your question, I think it's something that needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis, and the player should be given the benefit of the doubt. In Nani's case, there was nothing to doubt.
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On December 15 2011 05:04 DoA wrote: <snip> Naniwa did break the GOMtv's interpretation of their rules of the tournament. Even if he wasn't aware of it or didn't intend to, he did disrespect his opponent and the GSL. If you're going to play in someone's event you have to play by their rules. <snip>
Could you point out exactly which rule Naniwa broke, by GOM's interpretation, and where in their rules it spells out what the punishment would be? I assume when you say "play by their rules" you aren't advocating that an organization can make up an arbitrary rule and punishment after the fact to punish behavior they don't like.
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If it was more like partly like a showmatch, they should've still had a last place prize. At least they'd have something to fight for. GOM not taking human nature into account and making us sit through pointless games. Naniwa should've just 2 gated or something and got it over with that way. That way he can mask it better. Perhaps even better than Bratok/Stephano ever could.
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Great set of arguments DoA!!!
I can absolutely follow the way of your thinking and I do believe that you are right in the way to interprete what had happend at GOM. Sorry for Naniwa, but he ought to have known that there might be some form of consequence to this kind of "work-ethics".
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On December 15 2011 13:37 Blondinbengt wrote: Very good post.
I don't have a problem with tournament organizers being able to do stuff like this even when no rules were broken, but in regard to the specific situation that occured in this case I do have some concerns.
What would have happened if Naniwa had won with his worker rush?
As close to throwing a game as a worker rush might be, it is still not the same as instantly typing gg and leaving the game, there's an important distinction to be made here. Using a build/strategy that has an extremely low chance of succeeding does not lower your chances of winning to 0, it might be incredibly close to 0, but it's still not 0. So even if Naniwa did indeed expect to lose with his rush (I haven't seen a statement from him specifically saying this, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption), he did give himself a chance of winning, it might have been 0,0000001%, but it's still there. And this leads me to wonder, what would have happened if Nestea had suffered a mental break the second Naniwas probes reached his base, perhaps out of sheer shock at what he was seeing, causing him to fuck up so horrifically that he lost. What would GOM have done, would they have reacted the same way that they did or would they have accepted what Naniwa did?
And just to remind people that this isn't as crazy of a scenario as you might think, remember that Morrow won his second semifinal game in the TL Open #6 against Strelok with a pure and simple worker rush.
I think this is an interesting question because if the reason why Naniwa faced such a huge wave of negative reactions was because of that he lost and if the reaction would have been different if he won then where do we draw the line? Should people be allowed to use some extremely unorthodox strategies like a mothership rush or 1 base carriers but not others like worker rushes?
He admitted to it. End of discussion. And you don't need a crime caught on video tape when you have overwhelming evidence. Ironically enough, it was on video tape.
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I still am not convinced that there's any defense of GOM's interpretation of the rules. The thing with Naniwa is said and done, he's out for the season, I'm sure he'll be back.
But if this is the kind of licence that GOM provides itself in dishing out punishment, then that's pretty bad for esports. At least in kespa you had to break a rule, GOM is apparently willing to dangle a progamer's career over their head because they feel hurt, and are content with some thinly extrapolated citation to justify it.
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Really nice writing Doa. That was entertaining but also summed up my feelings about the whole situation as well. I don't understand how Tyler can be so one-sided in his opinion about GOM. I really liked how you explained what shouldn't have to be explained - that this was an end of the year showmatch as well as a tournament. I also liked how you were fair to both parties and not overly harsh on any one point.
5/5 man
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Thank you so much for this Doa, much respect for you taking the time to write this up for us.
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Excellent post Doa. Thanks for taking time to write that out. I definatly agree with all the points you brought up.
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good write, Doa. even though it shouldn't be that hard to come up with these conclusions. you just have to look at gom/naniwas point of view and use your common sense. but because so many can't do so or refuse to...felt the need to show my appreciation.
always thought of you like an easy guy to be with, but tend to be more biased. so again, well done. still don't like your casting
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Doa, this article is great.
Thank you for describing Naniwa's character and for putting Gom's reaction into perspective.
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On December 15 2011 14:26 MechaCthulhu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:04 DoA wrote: <snip> Naniwa did break the GOMtv's interpretation of their rules of the tournament. Even if he wasn't aware of it or didn't intend to, he did disrespect his opponent and the GSL. If you're going to play in someone's event you have to play by their rules. <snip>
Could you point out exactly which rule Naniwa broke, by GOM's interpretation, and where in their rules it spells out what the punishment would be? I assume when you say "play by their rules" you aren't advocating that an organization can make up an arbitrary rule and punishment after the fact to punish behavior they don't like. If I understood Doa correctly, he was arguing in a sense that the punishment for Naniwa was the lesser damage. If Gom had led Naniwa go away with this, the reputation and the spirit of GSL tournaments would suffer.
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Nice post, definitely the go to post for an explanation, explains everything clearly so simple minded kids can understand. One of the key points is that if you guys haven't noticed... in the past gomtv always did skip meaningless games, do you not remember up and down matches? But why not do it here, for this tournament? Well it is the most prestigious tournament in the world you can say, inviting the very top top players, so every game was a showmatch. This tournament has been hyped for so long, fans wanted to see every game do you not agree? Who here can honestly say they didn't want to watch nestea and naniwa duke it out after mlg? If you can your not a sc2 fan.. Even quantic gaming hyped up the match prior, their mindset wasn't, "oh, no point in playing now naniwa", it was to see a game as a fan. This wasn't just about winning or losing. If you look foward to a match, it has a story behind and a significance, meaning to you and regardless you would want to see that game in the most prestigious tournament and the last one of 2011.
If you play in someone else's tournament you play by their rules. Considering this was one of the most hyped and prestigious tournament of 2011, his actions were done at the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sure if it was the up and down matches and for some reason he was forced to play a meaningless game, a probe rush would've had no punishment behind it.
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That was probably the most comprehensive and detailed insight on the issue from both sides. Everyone should read this before they post any trash talk, ESPECIALLY people who haven't though of or don't realize the business perspective of GOMtv and NaNiWa's opportunity in the Cup. I have nothing against him, but a company has to do what it has to do to enforce what's in their best interests for not only their customers, but ultimately the players as well.
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I perfectly understand your statement DOA. Thank your for taking the time to write this out. If it was me in the situation, I would have tried my hardest, because you're correct in your statement that ""It's not whether you win or lose. It's how you play the game."
Having said that, I do not agree with the tournament format, nor GOM's reaction to the situation.
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On December 16 2011 00:35 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 14:26 MechaCthulhu wrote:On December 15 2011 05:04 DoA wrote: <snip> Naniwa did break the GOMtv's interpretation of their rules of the tournament. Even if he wasn't aware of it or didn't intend to, he did disrespect his opponent and the GSL. If you're going to play in someone's event you have to play by their rules. <snip>
Could you point out exactly which rule Naniwa broke, by GOM's interpretation, and where in their rules it spells out what the punishment would be? I assume when you say "play by their rules" you aren't advocating that an organization can make up an arbitrary rule and punishment after the fact to punish behavior they don't like. If I understood Doa correctly, he was arguing in a sense that the punishment for Naniwa was the lesser damage. If Gom had led Naniwa go away with this, the reputation and the spirit of GSL tournaments would suffer.
That means they just came up with an arbitrary punishment to deal with behavior they didn't like, not that Naniwa broke any rules. Doa kept saying variances of "you have to play by their rules" through his post, so I'd like to know which rule Naniwa didn't play by. As far as I'm aware, there was no explicit rule broken, but I assume DoA wouldn't just be using "play by the rules" as a meaningless rhetorical device to get people on GOM's side.
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its glad to see basically everyone who wants exposure taking part in giving his 2 cents on the situation
i didnt know who egalex was and now i do. thanks guys
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On December 15 2011 05:04 DoA wrote: <snip> They invite this guy to come and play and he repays them with this. The big issue here is that I don't think Naniwa realized what a big honor he was being given by being invited to the Blizzard Cup. He certainly didn't deserve it more than anyone else. HuK won an MLG too and has been much more successful in the GSL overall. MarineKing came in 2nd in multiple GSLs throughout the year and won other tournaments. I'm sure I could find more examples. What I'm saying is that there were other people out there that deserved his spot as much as he did, but GOM chose to give it to him. They saw that he was popular with the foreign fans and I happen to personally know that (up until now anyway) the leadership at GOMtv actually liked him. His spot in the Blizzard Cup was a gift and in their eyes he basically threw it back at them by refusing to play his match. Of course they're going to be furious. <snip>
DoA, if you would, please tell us how this explanation squares with GOMs announcement (through MLG) that Naniwa got the invitation to the Blizzcup in lieu of the Code S spot he won at MLG. It looks like you want it both ways: 1) Naniwa should have been honored to be invited to Blizzcup because others deserved it as much, and 2) he didn't actually get his invitation to Code S taken away; he got invited to Blizzcup instead.
Obviously, both those things can't be true at the same time. Either he earned an invitation to Blizzcup, therefore it was not a "gift" from GOM so they have no right to be offended by him "[throwing] it back at them", or he earned an invitation to Code S, which means GOM took something he had rightfully earned.
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On December 15 2011 10:03 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 09:58 Taug wrote: why can't Naniwa go through open brackets like everyone else? Why does he 'deserve' a code S spot? why not code A? oh because gom is being extra nice and trying to help the foreigners out, which ultimately helps them out. Doa, I really really liked this line.
You like it but it's false, GOM hasn't been "nice". Naniwa earned his spot and wasn't invited. In fact, he's the first foreigner to do so, every other player that won this spot was korean. Good article DOA, but your reasoning includes "GOM decided to invite Naniwa", so I think it's flawed. GOm didn't decide anything, they gave a list of tournament from which winners would gain a spot in the blizzcup. Naniwa won one of those tournament. Naniwa won his spot, and GOM certainly not "decided to invite him". Same for his code S spot, like his Blizzcup spot, were the very first time since open season that a foreigner EARNED a spot in the GSL and was not invited. Unless you say MC and MMA were "invited" in code S too ?
When I said i liked it, i meant the quote below -.- How did he earn his spot? Naniwa didnt win anything, he got 2nd at MLG providence, and this was AFTER the patch that improved toss (upgrades). I'm not sure about the blizzard cup spot but i think he was invited to that as well.
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Thank you DoA for explaining GOM's view and the impact of Naniwa's actions.
While I do agree what Nani did was against the spirit of competition; I think a debate should be had as to what kind of punishment GOM should dole out. The part I'm most confused about is what Naniwa was entitled to from his results at MLG. It seems to me GOM is trying to mitigate the perception of the punishment by restating what Naniwa was entitled to. There is also the issue of Naniwa not breaking any explicit rule, implying any punishment GOM deals out would be arbitrary. This brings into question of the powers a tournament host has in responding to unstated violations.
I don't think the punishment GOM dealt out is too extreme but the manner in which it is justified and explained raises questions of legitimacy and integrity.
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The reasoning is good, but there is something factually wrong: Gom did not "offer" an invite to the blizzard cup to Naniwa, there was a rule that the 1st and 2nd place of MLG anaheim (orlando? i don't remember, the last one with the big prize pool) would get a spot to the blizzard cup. Naniwa won his spot. It's still an honour, and I don't think he realized that the simple fact of having the possibility to play a broadcasted game against Nestea is something that a lot of b-teamers dream of in korea.
It also leads to the problem of Gom giving random invites to foreigners, they really need to make qualifiers. I feel like it's really unfair to invite players based on their popularity, GSL has to be the tournament for the best of the best, no one should get a free spot. I understand that it's really hard for foreigners to go to korea, and that's it'ts good for Gom business to have foreigners playing. But make a freaking online qualifier, Gom is losing a lot of credibility in my eye by inviting Idra and Sen directly in code S. (I don't say they don't deserve it, they're definitely top foreigners, the problem is that they got into code S without winning anything, and code S should be one the most prestigious "title" in sc2, and as such should not be givent away like this).
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They need to make qualifiers? Make a freaking online qualifier? If you didnt know, gsl has tournaments to qualify for CODE A, most of these ppl that play in it are 'Code B'. And to be honest, they probably won't make it past that. So the only way they would get into these gsl code a/code S tournaments, is through seeds, from far less competitive tournaments.
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