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Why I Stopped Watching NASL
As a member of the TL NASL coverage team, I feel odd writing this blog. Heck, I'm the guy who wrote "Why You Should Give NASL A Second Chance." I suppose you could also call this "Why I'm Not Giving NASL A Third Chance." Consider that I'm not suggesting that anyone else quit on NASL; heck, I'll be watching the finals myself. But these are my personal reasons for quitting on the regular season:
1. Time Travel
By broadcasting games almost an entire month after they were played, NASL cut their tournament out of the rest of the SC2 scene. As a spectator, you can't wonder if IdrA's going to use a new ZvP style or see if there will be any new developments in PvP. Part of what makes this community great is the seamless, interconnecting story that's told by every tournament, as the scene gets deeper and more mature, and as we follow the development of our favorite players. In order to tap into that, we need a stable timeline. NASL subverts all of that and effectively places their tournament on an island with a time-warp bubble around it.
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-8dHHYUVgQ0/S7oOXHvGYAI/AAAAAAAAATc/PLhfd_JK0lk/s400/lost_island3a.jpg) It's already got two of the letters
2. Destroying the Evidence
Watching VODs was a nightmare. I could almost never find a VOD that could be played in low quality, which is the only way I can watch VODs most of the time. It's great that NASL goes through all the work to provide super high-quality VODs, but that doesn't matter if I can't see them. I had to dig through twitch.tv rebroadcast video captures to finally find a low-quality-enough video I could watch. And I paid for that service. Other tournaments are hardly convenient with their own VOD services, but this was frustrating.
3. Crushing My Hopes And Dreams
I was genuinely excited about the regular season all the way up until DeMusliM and Hero were set to play. NASL even advertised the epic showdown between the two undefeated players in the LR thread they made for that day. So it felt like a swift kick to my ESPORTESTICLES when Gretorp announced that DeMusliM was a no-show. The way NASL handles these walkovers always seem like a bitter pronouncement upon the character of the missing player, as if reddit's supposed to immediately reach for the pitchforks. But instead I feel used.
Someone once asked if there were parents who, when asked for bread, would give their kids a stone. Or if they asked for a fish, would give them a snake, instead. NASL is that parent. I wanted to watch some epic SC2, and instead, my hands are full of snakes.
I hate snakes.
![[image loading]](http://filmfanatic.org/reviews/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/raiders-snakes.png) Not to be confused with ESPORTESTICLES
4. The Cliched Elephant In The Metaphorical Room
You know what isn't a problem with NASL? Not the format, the lack of koreans, the map pool, the time it airs, the price, or even Heroes of Newerth. NASL's proven it can improve in almost every area. But the area I worry they'll never improve in is arguably the most important: commentary.
Gretorp is the elephant in NASL's room. From day one, he's put his brand on this league, and while he's improved his skill, I just can't fully enjoy the games that he casts. Unfortunately, that turns out to be every single game. With all the talk lately on the value and worth of commentators, I think it's worth noting how much our enjoyment of SC2 can depend on good commentary. I'm not as experienced or skillful enough with RTSes to fully enjoy watching a high-level game without some help from a good presenter -- at least not enough to merit watching it over Axslav's stream or GSL VODs.
Gretorp is knowledgeable about the game, and certainly skilled as a player. He can be very insightful and look at strategy from interesting angles. See Gretorp's episode of the short-lived "JP and Friends" show to see what I mean. But he is not the savvy presenter and MC that NASL needs. No one questions his work ethic or character, but in this highly-competitive Battle for Viewers that NASL is losing, NASL needs to look for other options.
Meanwhile, I'll be looking for some good streams.
 
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It only took the 4th one to do it for me.
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I can understand the sentiment. I have not really watched any SC besides MLG Providence in the last month or two but I do keep up with all the results except NASL. I have no idea who's playing in the league or who's in the finals. You did a good job of expressing why I'm not really interested in it as well. Your points and the endless stream of games with players that aren't as exciting as other tournaments is enough for me to lose interest.
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I was heart broken when Incontrol wasn't casting anymore. He I thought was one of the best things about NASL. Other then the epic games. I agree with the match thing as well thats just a sour taste in my mouth and was one of the reasons why NASL was better then IPL in the first place.
I have no idea what they did between seasons that made any progress at all.
all the same though the finals will still be epic I hope.
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I kinda stopped watching/following NASL when iNcontroL left.
He was the main reason I watched it in the first place in season 1.
It's kind of sad to think about it, because people thought NASL could be right there with MLG and Dreamhack, but now, I don't know about that.
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I can't stand Gretorp. I'm sorry for this, but he's just kind of a douche. I love his insight, and he is far better at the game than I will EVER be. He knows his shit. However, his jokes are awkward, his commentary is awkward. There have been times when I've been listening to him, and his jokes were just so artificial, and sometimes just so devoid of taste, I just sat there facepalming. Literally, facepalming. Don't even get me started on what I feel about Orb.
If the NASL S2 finals don't show up, I'll definitely not even bother casually showing up to their streams. I honestly hope they can pull their shit together, but so far, I just can't bear to watch them. I mean, my eyes literally begin to hurt watching their poorly outlined bodies on that greenscreen. Perhaps that's because I'm stuck on LQ? If so, I apologize for making that an issue 
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Point 1 is the only one I have a real issue with, but that alone was enough to stop me from watching the NASL regular season for all the exact same reasons you stated. That won't stop NASL from having a great grand finals though. Considering the players who qualified it's basically Dreamhack without the group stages.
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It's depressing how accurate this blog is. I'd lie right to your face and say the NASL is great but.. my entire involvement has been reading the recap news articles.
Edit: I don't think gretorp is a douche though. I think he's a pretty good guy and he does a great job with what he is given.
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Your thoughts reflect a lot of my feelings as well. I followed the VOD problems during the first season and, convinced they wouldn't get resolved, decided I did not want to subscribe to their service as lower-quality VODs would have been a must.
I also agree with the lag between games played and games aired. I get why they do it, but it falls flat. I feel similarly about the IPL--I just can't get excited knowing the matches were pre-recorded.
And finally, Gretrop. I'm glad you've said it here, because I was afraid to admit it. Not to be reductive, but I can't tell you how turned off I am every time he uses the word "crap." He gets so worked up...only to use the phrase "Holy crap!" I'm sure this sounds like a nitpicky complaint, but its not just this phrase: I feel as though Gretorp understands all the cues and the situations, yet he always falls flat in his style. He does not articulate with precisely chosen words (Mr. Bitter), with humor (Day[9]), with an increasingly sure sense of purpose, yet honest reverence for the players (Husky), or with the ease and familiarity of the casting archon. Yes, he is knowledgeable; but his communication of his knowledge lacks the style or refinement of these others casters.
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On December 01 2011 13:36 Probe1 wrote:
It's depressing how accurate this blog is. I'd lie right to your face and say the NASL is great but.. my entire involvement has been reading the recap news articles.
Edit: I don't think gretorp is a douche though. I think he's a pretty good guy and he does a great job with what he is given.
I think the word "douche" was the wrong word choice on my part. It's really all I could think of though. Perhaps "awkward" is a better term, but it just doesn't give the impact I am trying to imply. He's not just awkward he's...just sort of trying too hard, I suppose? I mean, I don't want to hate on him too much since I respect him as a player and with his knowledge of the game. However, I just can't bear to listen to his casting. It's just so odd and I am just mentally or physically facepalming 90% of the time. As the person above me said, it just seems he doesn't know what caster he wants to be. He's in an identity crisis. He can't decide, it seems, between being analytical, humorous, or whatever.
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I would agree with that. Sometimes the casts in season 1 were.. strained. I really want to not hate on NASL but.. I have very few positive things to say.
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Except for 2. (cause I didn't bother paying for another season after last, and my internet doesn't give me that problem)-- exactly my thoughts. I hope the finals will be good, and I plan on watching those for however many more seasons NASL runs, as long as I know the players. I will probably never touch the regular season again though. If I want an evening of sc2 it will be IPL or a favorite streamer.
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On December 01 2011 13:48 RedJustice wrote:
Except for 2. (cause I didn't bother paying for another season after last, and my internet doesn't give me that problem)-- exactly my thoughts. I hope the finals will be good, and I plan on watching those for however many more seasons NASL runs, as long as I know the players. I will probably never touch the regular season again though. If I want an evening of sc2 it will be IPL or a favorite streamer.
Honestly, Catspajamas and HD have taken up more hours in my nights than most actual video games in the past ~2-3 weeks.
It's starting to scare me.
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agree on all your points sir. the format, the rules, the presentation- all less than optimal in my opinion.
as much as gretorp is awesome,i just cannot bear listening to him cast the games. he knows what he is talking about though- back when it was him and incontrol it was more bearable i guess. he just doesn't have the demeanor necessary for casting sc2.
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I would like to make this clear- I'm definitely planning on watching the final despite the lack of interest in the season.
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Regular season NASL is just a bit "meh". The Finals last time around were great, though, very good players and some incredible games. Sure, it's no MLG but it's well worth the time, and I'm sure it would be quite good this time as well.
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Yep I'll be watching the finals too, but I have had no interest whatsoever in anything else NASL has had to offer. Season 1 was ok, but this season, I've had no interest in pool play at all.
IPL is slightly better although only Painuser is a decent caster IMO... Makes me value MLG and Dreamhack so, so much.
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Great blog. I always feel really bad that such a massively ambitious project like NASL would fail, and couldn't place a finger on exactly what was wrong, but you seem to be hitting all the main points.
As unfortunate as it is, NASL has kind of become a warning to other tournaments on what you shouldn't be doing, a thousand little things that they just aren't doing as good as other tournaments. I'll still watch the finals, and I still try to tune in to the show
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i watched HuK play in season 2. that is all. him being onboard is literally the only reason i bought the hd pass. i actually don't mind gretorp's casting much if paired with the right co-caster; unfortunately this has not happened in season 2. the delay in the play to broadcast time only really bothered me around patches.
all that said; i really, REALLY hope they have a successful finals this weekend. the more 'big' tournaments the better imho.
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I like Gretorp. There are just too many effing games and I agree with the w/o and vod situations. It just lost its excitement factor as THAT big NA tourney from before.
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I'm surprised HON hasn't been bought up at all in this blog. I being a lol player really hated it and I wonder what other people thought of nasl picking it up.
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I agree 100%. I actually enjoyed the latter weeks of Season 1 (with no technical difficulties) a lot more, and it was my preferred entertainment for the evening, as I found Incontrol and gretorp to be an excellent combo.
I'm not entirely sure as to why, but now NASL is completely unwatchable for me. I mean, they don't have tech issues, the show is basically flawless in execution. It's just the actual content.
From here, I can do nothing but mirror the reasons you have given in your OP. Well said.
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I'm still waiting for unprecedented production value.
Seriously, I wouldn't start an Airline and say it's going to be the premier Airline in the world, especially if I had never run one.
But yes, commentary is also a decent reason not to watch. I don't watch GSL anymore because it's anyone's guess when Tastosis will and will not be there.
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I agree with all of these points. Regular season is just too boring with absolutely no production value.
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I've never taken the time to fully understand the format. Nor should it be necessary to do so.
Whenever i watch a NASL game (which is not very often) I have no idea what stage of the tournament they are in and what's on the line. Most of the time I feel like i'm not even watching a tourney.
But I really don't wanna put up MLG or DH up on some pedestal either with all that commercial downtime and such. Shit is just crazy. For me the only really good league is IPL  (I don't watch GSL so can't comment on that)
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every reason you posted is why i have only ever watched like maybe 3 days of NASL.
NASL to me is just a title of threads i look in to see what players are winning games and what players arent.
really hoping something happens in the future to make NASL better then it currently is.
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What i have heard and read, this blog sounds very accurate and i completely agree with you.
Never liked the broadcasting style NASL had nor the commentators. InControl was great in season 1, even though i didn't watch much at all. Finals were great, despite the problems they had. Haven't watched a single cast this season, so i don't know what is really going on. Broadcasting seems to be the same as season 1, which makes me not a fan as i said earlier. I will be watching the finals though, and i will tune in for the finals next season.
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United States33152 Posts
I think it's unfair to say Gretorp killed NASL.
It's more accurate to say "Lack of Day9 or Tastosis kills leagues without IPL level money."
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On December 01 2011 16:21 marttorn wrote:
I agree 100%. I actually enjoyed the latter weeks of Season 1 (with no technical difficulties) a lot more, and it was my preferred entertainment for the evening, as I found Incontrol and gretorp to be an excellent combo.
I'm not entirely sure as to why, but now NASL is completely unwatchable for me. I mean, they don't have tech issues, the show is basically flawless in execution. It's just the actual content.
From here, I can do nothing but mirror the reasons you have given in your OP. Well said.
This...
I really liked season 1, even while there where errors but now i just don't care anymore. I couldn't give a shit about the lack of koreans but the game just feel "pointless" to me...
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On December 01 2011 19:35 Waxangel wrote:
I think it's unfair to say Gretorp killed NASL.
It's more accurate to say "Lack of Day9 or Tastosis kills leagues without IPL level money."
IPL's casters are great to(and not Day9 or Tastosis). Dont know why you think that IPL's lvl of money matters. I have almost not seen a single " i dont watch IPL b/c of X-caster" post.
And what i mean is, I think its fair to have Gretorp as a part of the list, since IPL clearly have shown that there are good casters other then Daytasteosis.
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On December 01 2011 19:35 Waxangel wrote:
I think it's unfair to say Gretorp killed NASL.
It's more accurate to say "Lack of Day9 or Tastosis kills leagues without IPL level money."
I suppose I should clarify that I'm not arguing why NASL is dead -- which it isn't. I'm just saying what I quit watching. And I really don't think that it was a lack of Tier 1 commentators that did me in, either, because I love lzgamer and orb, and I loved almost every guest commentator from season 1.
But I think you're right that the presence of Day[9]/Tastosis is beginning to define the difference between the highest tier leagues and everything below.
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On December 01 2011 19:35 Waxangel wrote:
I think it's unfair to say Gretorp killed NASL.
It's more accurate to say "Lack of Day9 or Tastosis kills leagues without IPL level money."
am i the only one thinking that tastosis is slipping a bit. I mean, during Dreamhack all tasteless did was saying "Guys I wish I could make this more interesting for you but I think we'll see a gg soon" every F***ing game.
Artosis is still good though
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there are so many bad casters its not even funny but i wonder how much of the problem is lack of talent to pull from
i think there is for some reason this view that players make good casters and that just isnt true. yes there are players that are casters now but good at sc2 and being a caster are 2 dif things. one would think these companys would do a casting call and have TRYOUTs or something but thats why NASL isnt so popular
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On December 01 2011 19:35 Waxangel wrote:
I think it's unfair to say Gretorp killed NASL.
It's more accurate to say "Lack of Day9 or Tastosis kills leagues without IPL level money."
I disagree.
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I generally think it's a pretty good event, and it's improved since last season in my opinion. I can't comment on watching the VODs in low quality, as I've never tried, but I have a subscription, and the VOD layout and performance is better than last season. I can usually find what I want, and they usually work. Last season they would stutter a lot, and they always seemed muddled. I think this is as much to do with the streaming service, as NASL, but the process of chopping up the casts and then linking them is very clumsy.
The finals were OK last year, but the single elimination format disappointed me. It seemed like such an anti-climax to have a long season, and fly someone out to the USA (or travel across the USA) just to play one best of 3. Hopefully the BO5 format will be better this year. I do worry that they have too many casters there, it did seem that they didn't utilise Day9 and Tastosis as much as they could have done. I would definitely prefer some sort of double elimination finals. I think doing well in a long league process should give you that right, and it would mean more games to watch at the final event.
I was really gutted about Hero versus Demuslim (being from the UK and a fan of Hero as well). I definitely think that they could handle the no shows better, but I'm glad to see that these are less frequent this season. I think the NASL is improving, and will continue to subscribe.
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On December 01 2011 19:35 Waxangel wrote:
I think it's unfair to say Gretorp killed NASL.
It's more accurate to say "Lack of Day9 or Tastosis kills leagues without IPL level money."
Eh that's not true.
I think Orb is an excellent caster, same with TB/Apollo and Bitter/RD.
Gretorp is a caster and his job is to make the games entertaining to the audience. At some point you have to look at this objectively because he sucks at his job.
edit: There are a lot of other good casters too but don't want to take the time to list everyone out.
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On December 01 2011 19:35 Waxangel wrote:
I think it's unfair to say Gretorp killed NASL.
It's more accurate to say "Lack of Day9 or Tastosis kills leagues without IPL level money."
I dunno, I mean the ESV Korean weekly ( aka Taeja's allowance) doesn't have that kinda money but I watch it regularly because the casting is decent and the games are good. The entertainment and educational value is enough to keep me hooked.
Provided the stream works I will watch anything mr.bitter and rotterdam are casting. TB/Apollo got me through that rediculous series between stephano and bratok at assembly summer.
Hell the stream is being all kinds of laggy for me and the sound is wonky but I'm watching the KSL because khaldor makes it entertaining.
I don't think the caster or casting pair kills or makes a league but I do think people are more willing to be forgiving of other flaws if at the very least the casting of the games is entertaining. NASL is flawed in many ways and for some gretorp is just the straw that breaks the camel's back.
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The 'Time Travel' one is so major as well. Prior to eSports I'd heard sports fans describe how a recorded game had none of the magic of the live event, and didn't see why they'd care. Now I know :/
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live does have a flare to it but i think another thing thats bad about esports is LACK of BM. bm creates drama and puts more meaning into a match. ever watch an idra mc match? guess what match is more talked about idra mc or idra ANY other toss.
its not because they are ballers its because they bm each other. when people are like "be more like sheth and whitera" i cringe because they are boring.
you cant blame this on gretorp but as casters they make the games more exciting then they actually are. this is something gretorp isnt capable of and as such the matches will always just be matches and tbh i can watch streams that have the same excitement and meaning to me all day on TL
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The matches are boring because there is nothing on the line till the playoffs / finals. That is why I don't watch NASL. You cant hype the shit out of something like a 10x longer pool play from MLG. It just wont happen. I don't dislike Gretorp, I think his insight has helped me improve my game. The only thing that I don't like about him is that he tries too hard to fit a mold that he clearly doesn't need to.
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On December 01 2011 20:09 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 19:35 Waxangel wrote:
I think it's unfair to say Gretorp killed NASL.
It's more accurate to say "Lack of Day9 or Tastosis kills leagues without IPL level money." IPL's casters are great to(and not Day9 or Tastosis). Dont know why you think that IPL's lvl of money matters. I have almost not seen a single " i dont watch IPL b/c of X-caster" post. And what i mean is, I think its fair to have Gretorp as a part of the list, since IPL clearly have shown that there are good casters other then Daytasteosis.
I don't get hyped about IPL the same way I get hyped about MLG, GSL or Dreamhack, and that's because of the casters. While they might be good enough for some, they bother me.
I literally mute any HDstarcraft cast, that's a given. Cats kind of annoys me, but when he's with Painuser it's decent enough. Unfortunately it's not even close to being as entertaining as Day9/Tasteless/Artosis. Can you imagine a tourney with a long season casted by some superstar casters? I'd literally watch the whole thing.
Right now I only watch IPL regular season and NASL when life REALLY sucks.
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On December 01 2011 19:35 Waxangel wrote:
I think it's unfair to say Gretorp killed NASL.
It's more accurate to say "Lack of Day9 or Tastosis kills leagues without IPL level money."
when he actively makes the show painful to watch, i think it's fair to say he has a decently sized hand in NASL's failure
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I just totally forgot about NASL...
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I never even bothered with the 2nd season of it. The first season just had too many damn games. Who is going to watch 5 hours of SC2 games every weeknight? I won't.
That said, I will watch the finals just because it's the finals.
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Never really watched the NASL unless there weren't any pro Zerg streams on. Most of the time it's just not exciting.
I hope the finals will be better than the regular season, otherwise I don't see NASL sticking around for too too long.
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I watched a lot of season 1, but barely any of season 2. I don't see how you can have to many games.... there's always something to watch and the more content the better. If you don't wanna watch all the games you don't have to. Its just that i'm not gonna pay 20 bucks to get something that is given out for free elsewhere - namely HD video quality and access to VoDs. I almost payed for season 1, but I could live with 480 so I didn't - and then they lowered it to 360. To me that is unwatchable. On the otherhand, the IPL gives away free HD and access to VoDs (I havn't looked, but I think their free), they have better casters, production, and more Koreans.
I would like to watch NASL, but IPL is just better for free
I do love Gretorps casting though.
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Getorp is a troll (and a bad commentator imo).
Plus he's probably the only commentator that (tryed to) commented a game while being totally baked...
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Only reason I think I stopped watching was the overload of SC2 content, I mean season 1 happened and it gave me something to tune into every night, and I loved the Gretorp iNcontroL duo. Now that SC2 content has increased so much, I find I don't look for that content anymore, I have IPL if I want that, I have so many player streams, and espeically I have iNcontroL. I hate to put a downer on Gretorp, but iNcontroL was Batman as Gretorp was Robin. I wouldn't tune into a Robin show, but Batman and Robin was the perfect combo of troll and oblivion :D
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I completely agree. I had the very discussion with my flatmate yesterday: I brought up plenty of arguments why I consider NASL subpar. He refuted every one of them. I had to admit that the production team etc. are all doing a pretty good job, that the competition is by no means lackluster... But still I felt that way, and while desperately trying to grasp the reason why I finally came down to... "yeah... Gretorp".
Games casted by him are just not enjoyable for me, and I can't even put my finger on why. They just aren't. It's not that he is less knowledgeable than other casters, his voice isn't grating to my ears (for example I can't watch Dota2 streams because Tobis screaming is driving me insane)... I don't know, there is something about his personality that just doesn't work for me. I remember when he casted HoN (the only thing I regularly watched on NASL) with Breaky and later on Breaky returned the favor in one of Gretorps SC2 casts- Not only did Breaky take over most of the stream- his enthusiasm totally worked for me and suddenly *gasp* the cast was fun.
I'm really sorry Gretorp, I know you worked hard at all of this, and I'd love for you to be rewarded for your efforts but this just isn't working.
On December 02 2011 20:43 DJWilma wrote:
I hate to put a downer on Gretorp, but iNcontroL was Batman as Gretorp was Robin. I wouldn't tune into a Robin show, but Batman and Robin was the perfect combo of troll and oblivion :D
Precisely. Gretorp just isn't an alpha caster if you will. He's ok when someone is leading with a strong voice and humor- he can contribute some insights etc. But with him in the lead... nanananananananananananananananana.
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EPT
